What happened to voltmoie?
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[quote=B24][quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you. If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.
See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way. So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way. If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay. He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life. If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice. I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me. [/quote] Hmmmm. My niece didn't "choose" to have a collapsed lung and die at birth. My friend didn't "choose" to get buried under rubble at 1 WTC. My father didn't "choose" to have a heart defect. My cousin didn't "choose" to be born mentally retarded. Wow, that's the work of God? THAT'S perfection? I think it is the religious nutjobs like yourself that use the "God is perfect" argument when it is convenient, and write everything else off. That's right, God doesn't have control over the "bad" things. You just let him take credit for the "good" things (at least, those things that you believe to be bad or good). Spiff, you just lost all credibility on this board. Your time's up. And it's not for your beliefs. It's for your attitude about your beliefs and everyone elses. Bye Spiff. [/quote] I realize that the further we go with this conversation, the less you think of me. That's fine. We have a difference of opinion about life, creation, and who is in control. I am steadfast in my beliefs as you are in yours. It's just that we're on different sides of the table. Just to clear things up, I believe God is control of ALL things. Not just the good. I don't pretend to know why babies die. I don't pretend to know why your friend happened to be in WTC 1 on 9/11 and why he didn't make it out. Or why you have a mentally retarded cousin. I do believe that I know who does. And He is the only person, this side of the hereafter, who will ever know why those things happened. And so, yes, all of those things are the work of a perfect God. If you want to consider me a religious nutjob from here on out, so be it.So said Nietzsche in his work The Gay Science. Ironic, huh.God is dead
Again, it’s not so much your beliefs as it is the way you pronounce your rightousness.
And again you are using the same lame excuse, as does every other religious nutjob, "welllllll, God does everything for a reason, aaaaand, we are all beautiful and perfect, but, hey, if we could talk to God, he would tell us why he fukced it up." I just consider you very, very naive. And again, I need a beer.Here is a classic example of society today. Bash the sh*t out of the guy who stands by his beliefs, but don't make any attempt to reveal yours. Atheists, agnostics, what ?
[quote=Ron 14]
Here is a classic example of society today. Bash the sh*t out of the guy who stands by his beliefs, but don't make any attempt to reveal yours. Atheists, agnostics, what ?
[/quote] Ron, we can debate religion all day long. I am Catholic. I REALLY don't care. I do believe this was not the place to start spreading hatred. THAT is what I have against Spiffy, not his religious beliefs. My father-in-law is extremely religious. If I asked him, I BET he would say EXACTLY what Spiff is saying. But he doesn't walk around saying "You're gay, I hate you." NO. He doesn't. He has met some people that are gay. He is very pleasant to them. He has befriended them. And he does not hate them. I am certain he does not agree with or approve of their lifestyles. But he also has the common sense and decency to know that it is inappropriate and shameful to express views that he KNOWS are offensive and oppressive. And he is 84.I may be wrong, but I don’t believe the word “hate” was ever used by Spiff. If it was I am sure he knows that is wrong. He said he is uncomfortable around gays. You can’t choose a religion and then pick through what you do and do not believe. Being gay is a sin. So is lusting after the hot teller that just walked by. All sins are treated equally. I cannot just choose to ignore the lust sin because I am a more frequent violater.
You have also labeled Spiff naive. Naive by definition is lacking experience. If you claim to be Catholic, but don't follow the doctrine you would be the naive one.B - where did I say I hated anyone? I said gay people creep me out. That's a lot different than hating them. I think your father in law and I would get along well. I don't go around telling random people who are gay that they shouldn't be. I wouldn't say I've exactly been friends with any gay people, but I have worked with a few guys who were. We were friendly and professional, but I didn't pull my pocket version of the Bible out and start hitting them with it.
Human beings are far from perfect in the way we act. That doesn't mean that we aren't created exactly the way God wants us to be. I don't know if Catholics believe in free will or not, but that one premise alone can go a long way in explaining why there are bad things that happen in this world. It's not a perfect place. Hasn't been since Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden. It's also not the worst it's ever been. Of course you'd have to believe in that story in Genesis about the flood. The point of that story was that even though God created a perfect place for us, WE screwed it up. Not Him.
This religious nutjob is heading home for the weekend. I doubt you'll see me here until after Christmas. Saturnalia for those of you who don't believe in the birth of the Chirst child. Merry Christmas everyone! ml - I like the new tagline.Spiff-
Even if you feel that way why bring it up. You aren't living up to your tagline!Spaceman Spiff:
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If you believe, that God is All Knowing (Omniscient) and All-Powerful (Omnipotent) it follows that, there cannot be free will.
If God created me knowing what choice I would make, how do I have free will? He created me in such a way that I am predestined to make every choice I make. God is perfect and make no mistakes so he created me knowing what choice I will make, and being a perfect being made me as I am, so he created me to fail? If God wanted to, he created me so I would not have chosen to be gay, but he did not God made me in such a way that He know that I would choose to be gay, and then he send me to hell. Remember God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, so he knowing creates people is such a way that he knows that they will chose and action that sends them to hell, I do not call that good, I call that evil.
You big city guys are too easily offended. There are a lot of people in my part of the upper Midwest with opinions similar to Spiff on the issue. I don’t think he’s said anything outrageous but I must be in the minority…
Well there is a huge part of the country that claims to be "Christian" because they were raised that way, but when it comes down to it they have no clue what that means. And because this is the case and because our society teaches everyone that they rule their own personal "domain," most default to popular culture and the media to tell them what is the "norm" and what they should believe in.
I wonder if Volt is a Christian… isn’t he what this thread was supposed to be about? BTW Spiff, I applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in. I’m am a big city boy and although I am no more creeped out by homosexuality than I would be a fornicator, I still believe both are wrong in the eyes of the creator. I however do not believe God runs the show right now, that would be satan, the bible says so itself and that is who is to blame in addition to our own choices as to why we are in the predicament we are in now, not God.
I can believe in God, have a personal relationship with Jesus, not live in the city, and not - by any means - agree with what is being said here by Spiff, so I have some issue with Berkshire.
Kinsey’s reports in the 50s stated clearly that nearly all of us are in some part both homo and heterosexual and very few of us are strictly one or the other. Any one purporting that being gay is not, by some degree, a choice is clearly ignoring both science and any standard reading of lesbian writings. Being gay can, in fact, be a choice and often is relative to surroundings. Whether or not it is a choice is meaningless, at least as regards this discussion.
My belief comes from some simple truths - Love your neighbor as yourself; that Jesus came as the Divine Lord to rescue me from sin; and that there is no way to Heaven but through Jesus Christ. From there, I have no problem in looking into the Bible and seeing that there are translational errors; that there are cultural biases (the same ones that look down upon women, allow for genocide, purport slavery as the natural way of things) that no longer pertain to this world; and that it was in some cases written by men with an agenda of their own, long after the original authors passed the scene. From such a perspective, it’s easy to not take the word as literal, and still hold true to my beliefs.
It could be argued the relationship between Ruth and Naomi to be that of committed, consensual homosexual relationship, or between Jonathan and David (Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself) as the same. At any rate, every instance that I am aware of that decries homosexual acts does so within the context of force, rape, violence, promiscuity, or exploitation. I know of no passage where Jesus Christ condemns the behavior of committed, consensual couples of any sort.
I’m sad for people like Spiff that are so uncomfortable in their skins that they actually fear a segment of the population. The Lord I believe in teaches me to be inclusive, to love others as He does. And I do believe He loves us all, and asks us to find a way Home with others. Bashing gays … sorry, won’t have it.
He doesn't hate gays, nor has he bashed them. He feels uncomfortable with how they live. I work with a guy who frequently cheats on his wife and doesn't hide it. If he makes me uncomfortable does that make me an adulterer basher ?
Don't worry. You won't be exposed because you don't have a belief system. I hope you enjoy that fence you sit on.this thread has gone amazingly wrong but a lot of people have exposed their beliefs now and will be viewed very differently now…on both sides
WOW
back when God created the earth, he made gay people and straight people. The gay people had drunken pool parties all the time and lots of deviant, dirty sex. They had the most finely decorated apartments, but otherwise, accomplished little in their lives.
Straight, married people had no sex and had such frustrated lives that they would rather work in the fields or go to war than stay at home and listen to one more minute of that bitch’s whining…
over time and with lots of hard work, the straight men became more powerful and eventually controlled all of the cities, churches, states and countries and they promoted (or wrote) the specific passages in the bible that reinforced their lifestyle. So from 1452 to 1971, heterosexual marriage was fashionable.
So, I agree with Spiff that we live in a society that evolved to not be appropriate for gay activity…
oh, wait, is Spiff ok with evolution?
oh boy…
What the hell are you talking about ? Am I missing something? 5,000 years ago could two men reproduce ? Two women ? I am pretty sure society would be finished completely well before 1452 if that is when heterosexual marriage finally became the norm.back when God created the earth, he made gay people and straight people. The gay people had drunken pool parties all the time and lots of deviant, dirty sex. They had the most finely decorated apartments, but otherwise, accomplished little in their lives.
Straight, married people had no sex and had such frustrated lives that they would rather work in the fields or go to war than stay at home and listen to one more minute of that bitch’s whining…
over time and with lots of hard work, the straight men became more powerful and eventually controlled all of the cities, churches, states and countries and they promoted (or wrote) the specific passages in the bible that reinforced their lifestyle. So from 1452 to 1971, heterosexual marriage was fashionable.
So, I agree with Spiff that we live in a society that evolved to not be appropriate for gay activity…
oh, wait, is Spiff ok with evolution?
oh boy…
These days, two rocks could probably reproduce. The game is all about who can get the rights on the revenue stream.
… Being gay is a sin. [/quote] [quote=Ron 14]So is lusting after the hot teller that just walked by.