[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

So, you're saying you're not a homophobe?  That means...

I will readily admit that I do not like to be around gay people.  They creep me out.  There's a reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.  The juvenille locker room humor that was become the norm was too much.    What are you talking about with the Jones manual?    As to average producers, if you spent more time conversing with people like Rankstocks, YTREWQ, or BondGuy you might learn a thing or two about this business.  Even a relative rookie like ice has a lot of knowledge in his brain.    However, I agree with you that you should spend less time here.  Especially since all of your time right now should be focused on growing your business.  Good luck to you in 2010.  [/quote]

Yes, I agree.  The board is MUCH better since I've left. When I need advice or counsil I'll pick the phone up and call people I know and respect.  Not screennames on a board.

I've typically found those most uncomfotable with gays have their own inner demons to deal with.   Merry Christmas

Spaceman Spiff:

…I will readily admit that I do not like to be around gay people. They creep me out. There’s a reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The juvenille locker room humor that was become the norm was too much

While the locker room humor is too much - because I don't think you should post anything here you wouldn't say directly to a client, insofar as this meant to be professional interaction - this goes toward gay-bashing.

For real? God punishes gay people, is what you're saying here??? First off ... not the place for that conversation, second ... you're a butthead.

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

I will readily admit that I do not like to be around gay people.  They creep me out.  There's a reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. 

[/quote]   Seriously?   First off, if you knew the origin of the names Sodom and Gomorrah, it would become clear that they were only given these names in retrospect, and that the entire story is fictitious.  And the premise of the story is debated anyway.   Dude, it's scary to think that people still think this way.      Why don't we just hate black people?  I mean, geez, they used to be slaves.

Yes, seriously.   First, slaves are slaves not out of free will.  People don't choose to become slaves.  They are forced into it.  The same cannot be said for gay people.  People who are gay make a choice to be that way.  Not a good comparison.    Second, calling a Biblical passage ficticious is a slippery slope.  If the passage about Sodom and Gomorrah is wrong, then the rest of the book might as well be also.  So, you are basically calling Moses, the author of the book of Genesis, a liar.  I'm not sure what church you go to, but in mine, that's not cool.    The only people I know that would have any reason to say that the story of Abraham and the city of Sodom and Gomorrah is ficticious would be someone who doesn't believe that homosexuality is wrong.  I find it interesting that the Bible gets sliced and diced when it's not convenient.  Don't like the passage about getting drunk with wine - well, they didn't really mean it.  Don't like the passage about getting divorced - well, they didn't really mean me, did they?  Don't like the passage about pastors being men - well, it was a different society back then, so oppressive to women.    Lock - Here is as good a place as any.  God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham couldn't find any righteous people in them, save Lot and his family.  The main reason was because of their immoral behavior, otherwise known as homosexuality.  There are dozens of verses that talk about how God detests homosexuality.  Leviticus 18 is all about who not to sleep with.  It specifically says, in v.22, that men are not to lay with other men as with a woman.  My Bible says "that is detestable."    Do I believe that God punishes gay people.  Not specifically in the way that he did with the city of Sodom.  But, yes, I do believe that homosexuals, along with a bunch of other folks, myself included, will have to answer for the things we have chosen to do in our lives.  This could get into a very deep theological discussion at this point, so I'll stop there.    You can choose to believe what you want about homosexuality.  Gay people still creep me out. 

Spaceman Spiff:

Pease talk to some who is gay. Most if not all gay people will say that the thier sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it is just the way they are made.

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

Yes, seriously.   First, slaves are slaves not out of free will.  People don't choose to become slaves.  They are forced into it.  The same cannot be said for gay people.  People who are gay make a choice to be that way.  Not a good comparison.    Second, calling a Biblical passage ficticious is a slippery slope.  If the passage about Sodom and Gomorrah is wrong, then the rest of the book might as well be also.  So, you are basically calling Moses, the author of the book of Genesis, a liar.  I'm not sure what church you go to, but in mine, that's not cool.    The only people I know that would have any reason to say that the story of Abraham and the city of Sodom and Gomorrah is ficticious would be someone who doesn't believe that homosexuality is wrong.  I find it interesting that the Bible gets sliced and diced when it's not convenient.  Don't like the passage about getting drunk with wine - well, they didn't really mean it.  Don't like the passage about getting divorced - well, they didn't really mean me, did they?  Don't like the passage about pastors being men - well, it was a different society back then, so oppressive to women.    Lock - Here is as good a place as any.  God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham couldn't find any righteous people in them, save Lot and his family.  The main reason was because of their immoral behavior, otherwise known as homosexuality.  There are dozens of verses that talk about how God detests homosexuality.  Leviticus 18 is all about who not to sleep with.  It specifically says, in v.22, that men are not to lay with other men as with a woman.  My Bible says "that is detestable."    Do I believe that God punishes gay people.  Not specifically in the way that he did with the city of Sodom.  But, yes, I do believe that homosexuals, along with a bunch of other folks, myself included, will have to answer for the things we have chosen to do in our lives.  This could get into a very deep theological discussion at this point, so I'll stop there.    You can choose to believe what you want about homosexuality.  Gay people still creep me out.  [/quote]     Funny....religious people creep me out way more than gays!  Anyone that chooses to believe that some guy raised his arms and parted the ocean should be committed as far as i'm concerned!    

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

Yes, seriously.   First, slaves are slaves not out of free will.  People don't choose to become slaves.  They are forced into it.  The same cannot be said for gay people.  People who are gay make a choice to be that way.  Not a good comparison.    Second, calling a Biblical passage ficticious is a slippery slope.  If the passage about Sodom and Gomorrah is wrong, then the rest of the book might as well be also.  So, you are basically calling Moses, the author of the book of Genesis, a liar.  I'm not sure what church you go to, but in mine, that's not cool.    The only people I know that would have any reason to say that the story of Abraham and the city of Sodom and Gomorrah is ficticious would be someone who doesn't believe that homosexuality is wrong.  I find it interesting that the Bible gets sliced and diced when it's not convenient.  Don't like the passage about getting drunk with wine - well, they didn't really mean it.  Don't like the passage about getting divorced - well, they didn't really mean me, did they?  Don't like the passage about pastors being men - well, it was a different society back then, so oppressive to women.    Lock - Here is as good a place as any.  God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham couldn't find any righteous people in them, save Lot and his family.  The main reason was because of their immoral behavior, otherwise known as homosexuality.  There are dozens of verses that talk about how God detests homosexuality.  Leviticus 18 is all about who not to sleep with.  It specifically says, in v.22, that men are not to lay with other men as with a woman.  My Bible says "that is detestable."    Do I believe that God punishes gay people.  Not specifically in the way that he did with the city of Sodom.  But, yes, I do believe that homosexuals, along with a bunch of other folks, myself included, will have to answer for the things we have chosen to do in our lives.  This could get into a very deep theological discussion at this point, so I'll stop there.    You can choose to believe what you want about homosexuality.  Gay people still creep me out.  [/quote]   I don't even know where to start.    It's 2009 dude.  People used to believe a lot of things.

Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you.  If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.   

  See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way.  So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way.  If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay.  He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life.  If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice.  I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me.       

[quote=B24]

  I don't even know where to start.    It's 2009 dude.  People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote]   You're right.  People used to believe a lot of things.   Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong.  We don't really do that anymore.  It's called moral relativism.  What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours.   I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family.  I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids.  It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do.  That's fine.  I have my morality standards and you have yours. 

[quote=mlgone][quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you.  If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.   

  See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way.  So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way.  If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay.  He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life.  If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice.  I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me.       [/quote] you are burying yourself[/quote]   How so?  Is my reasoning flawed?   It's difficult to discuss creation with someone who doesn't believe there is a God who is perfect and who doesn't make mistakes when He creates things. 

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you.  If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.   

  See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way.  So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way.  If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay.  He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life.  If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice.  I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me.     [/quote]   Hmmmm.  My niece didn't "choose" to have a collapsed lung and die at birth.  My friend didn't "choose" to get buried under rubble at 1 WTC.  My father didn't "choose" to have a heart defect.  My cousin didn't "choose" to be born mentally retarded.  Wow, that's the work of God?  THAT'S perfection?  I think it is the religious nutjobs like yourself that use the "God is perfect" argument when it is convenient, and write everything else off.  That's right, God doesn't have control over the "bad" things.  You just let him take credit for the "good" things (at least, those things that you believe to be bad or good).   Spiff, you just lost all credibility on this board.  Your time's up.  And it's not for your beliefs.  It's for your attitude about your beliefs and everyone elses.   Bye Spiff.  

[quote=mlgone][quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=B24]

  I don't even know where to start.    It's 2009 dude.  People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote]   You're right.  People used to believe a lot of things.   Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong.  We don't really do that anymore.  It's called moral relativism.  What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours.   I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family.  I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids.  It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do.  That's fine.  I have my morality standards and you have yours.  [/quote]   Would be a shame if one of your siblings turned out gay, huh?[/quote]   Yes, it would.  But that would be their choice.  At the end of the day, I would still love them.  I would point out to them as many times as they would listen that their lifestyle choice is wrong and  I would point them to numerous verses in the Bible that would back up my opinions, but I would still love them.  It would still creep me out, but I'd love them anyway. 

[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=B24]

  I don't even know where to start.    It's 2009 dude.  People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote]   You're right.  People used to believe a lot of things.   Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong.  We don't really do that anymore.  It's called moral relativism.  What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours.   I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family.  I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids.  It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do.  That's fine.  I have my morality standards and you have yours.  [/quote]   For what it is worth Spiff I agree a 100% with everything you have said on this thread. Good for you. There is God and there is the God that people have created in their own minds in order to feel comfortable with their own life. I wish them luck, they will need it.

[quote=Ron 14][quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=B24]

  I don't even know where to start.    It's 2009 dude.  People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote]   You're right.  People used to believe a lot of things.   Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong.  We don't really do that anymore.  It's called moral relativism.  What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours.   I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family.  I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids.  It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do.  That's fine.  I have my morality standards and you have yours.  [/quote]   For what it is worth Spiff I agree a 100% with everything you have said on this thread. Good for you. There is God and there is the God that people have created in their own minds in order to feel comfortable with their own life. I wish them luck, they will need it. [/quote]   So why is it that so many priests are caught fondling little boys?  I have a conservative nutjob in my extended family, and everytime I ask him this question, he mumbles something and walks away.  Life just ain't perfect, is it?  That's right.  Perfection when it's convenient.

[quote=B24][quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you.  If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.   

  See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way.  So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way.  If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay.  He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life.  If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice.  I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me.     [/quote]   Hmmmm.  My niece didn't "choose" to have a collapsed lung and die at birth.  My friend didn't "choose" to get buried under rubble at 1 WTC.  My father didn't "choose" to have a heart defect.  My cousin didn't "choose" to be born mentally retarded.  Wow, that's the work of God?  THAT'S perfection?  I think it is the religious nutjobs like yourself that use the "God is perfect" argument when it is convenient, and write everything else off.  That's right, God doesn't have control over the "bad" things.  You just let him take credit for the "good" things (at least, those things that you believe to be bad or good).   Spiff, you just lost all credibility on this board.  Your time's up.  And it's not for your beliefs.  It's for your attitude about your beliefs and everyone elses.   Bye Spiff.  [/quote]   B24 - You don't define logic, he does. He has control over the bad things and the good things. What is learned through the difficulties that many experience often spawn unbelievable progressions in human life. Your niece is in a much better place.