Extending unemployment

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RealWorld's picture
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I was telling my wife how I thought it was amazing that so many Americans work in finance yet we are a country that is destructing from within due to poor budget control. Literally I spend 70% of my life going over finance with my clients while watching my country spiral into a nosedive based upon not being able to manage their own wallet.I wondered what some intelligent thoughts would be on unemployment benefits in this country. We must realize that with the non passage of the extension that we are going to have millions of people with no work, no benefits coming down the pike.What is the best (INTELLIGENT) way to deal with this situation and even the more broad issue of national debt?

navet's picture
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Joined: 2010-02-25

Great question. As I understand it, a portion of our paycheck goes toward unemployment insurance, although I believe it is hidden. If run properly, the effect of pooling risk would take care of paying out the insurance benefits. But with Congress involved, I wonder if that insurance pool is spent like everything else and replaced with IOU's, aka social security. Debt, from a Keynesian standpoint is supposed to be a short term fix. However, it has become a long term strategy and both sides of the aisle have been responsible for running up the tab. What scares me is that the country has grown out of trouble in the past through consumer spending. Buy that spending was either on the credit card or the mortgage. That well has run dry and if we are going to reverse this trend of debt, we will have to pay it off with money we would otherwise use on consumables. Without consumer spending our economy goes further down the crapper, more unemployment, more federal debt. So how close are we to the point of no return? And what alternatives do we have to grow the economy while repaying the debt?

RealWorld's picture
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So NAVET by that assessment I would say that there is no chance for growth in the US unless led by technology.

navet's picture
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Not necessarily. I think that one way we could grow out of this mess is with massive(and necessary) infrastructure rebuilding. Use public debt to rebuild infrastructure and use fees on infrastructure use to pay off the debt. The multiplying effect of wages on the citizens providing the labor would grow the economy. The increased efficiency of the infrastructure would lower the cost of doing business in general. Technology would certainly be involved with that strategy, in fact a massive infrastructure rebuild would be a necessary ingredient to technology growth and innovation. It could happen. And it's real growth, not some consumeristic buying spree paid for with a chinese credit card, or a war paid for with a chinese credit card, or TARP paid for with a chinese credit card.

I am legend's picture
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Joined: 2010-03-04

Continuing to extend unemployment benefits encourages working under the table and laziness and will only lengthen our unemployment problem.

navet's picture
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Joined: 2010-02-25

Do you really think most people are lazy and don't want to work? Current unemployment is caused by lazy people?

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

Umm...yes.  Lots of people are just naturally lazy.  I am.  You give me the choice of sitting on my butt playing Playstation or working and I'm going to choose Playstation every single time.  But, if I don't work, I don't eat.  If the government extends the unemployment benefits it will give those naturally lazy people another excuse to play another game.  If they know they're going to get a check in the mail this month whether they work or not, they're not going to take the extra steps to get a job that pays them better than their unemployment check.  Construction workers seem to be really bad about thinking it's OK to get an unemployment check.  It would cause permanent damage to my pride if I relied on a check from the government to pay my bills.  But with them, it's just a normal part of the life of a construction worker.  I realize there's a whole union issue with them (which is a whole different conversation), but these guys would be much better off if they skipped out on the union and started their own little company.  I've got a buddy who is a fireman and has a contracting business.  He's busier than he really wants to be.  Which tells me that there is an opportunity out there for someone with some drive, a truck, some tools, and some know how.  So, no lazy people didn't cause the unemployment issue.  But lazy people aren't going to fix it either.  Lazy people aren't going to get more education to make themselves more marketable.  Which means that they aren't going to get a job outside of their field.  They'll just continue to get unemployment.  Maybe if we shut it off, we can get people off their butts and get them worried about how they're going to feed their family.     

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

  They should go into business for themselves? OK, "this idea is another selection from the "let them eat cake catalog." It would be funny if you weren't serious about it. So, tell me how would that work? Somethng like this: Joe Unemployed guy laying on the couch starts to mull over his options. "Hmm, i'm unemployed. I've maxed out my credit cards. I'm overdrawn at the bank. I'm late on the rent, there isn't any food in the house, the electric is turned off, so is the cable, and the phone, the bank repossessed my car.  And now the government is turning off the gravy train. What am i going to do? Hey, I know, I'll start a contracting business. I'll go out and buy a truck and go buy the tools that i need along with getting my LLC, insurance, permits, and license from the state. Then i'll start a marketing campaign to get clients.Honey!!!! Whew, we're saved!!!!!!!"  Spiff, do you see a problem with this, because i do.Spiff the average working person who was making 30 to 40k a year before losing their job gets around $300 a week in unemployment comp. How far do you think that goes toward keeping a family fed and sheltered? Do you you really think these people are sittin' home drinkin and screwin' as the kids go hungry and they lose everything they own? Now, understand, there are some very powerful forces in this country who want you to think just that. But, really, do you beleive it?Demonizing the needy is a repub trick from long ago. Making them out to be useless bums that only need a kick in the rear makes it much easier to turn your back to them and sleep at night. If only it were true, that they are worthless! Spiff, the view you exibit here is either very naive or very cold hearted. The start a biz comment tells me you haven't thought this out.

Magician's picture
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BondGuy wrote:  They should go into business for themselves?  Or something.OK, "this idea is another selection from the "let them eat cake catalog." It would be funny if you weren't serious about it. So, tell me how would that work? Somethng like this:  BondGuy - I got love for you, but I have to disagree with you.  What you are describinng below is an extreme situation.  Plenty of people are out of work, but another spouse works.  There are also plenty of people who started businesses while they were on unemployment.  I know - I have a few clients like that.  Amazing how fast business picked up once they stopped getting unemployment. Joe Unemployed guy laying on the couch starts to mull over his options. "Hmm, i'm unemployed. I've maxed out my credit cards. I'm overdrawn at the bank. I'm late on the rent, there isn't any food in the house, the electric is turned off, so is the cable, and the phone, the bank repossessed my car.  And now the government is turning off the gravy train. What am i going to do? Hey, I know, I'll start a contracting business. I'll go out and buy a truck and go buy the tools that i need along with getting my LLC, insurance, permits, and license from the state. Then i'll start a marketing campaign to get clients.Honey!!!! Whew, we're saved!!!!!!!"  Spiff, do you see a problem with this, because i do.Spiff the average working person who was making 30 to 40k a year before losing their job gets around $300 a week in unemployment comp. How far do you think that goes toward keeping a family fed and sheltered?  $1200 a month is nothing to sneeze at.  I lived on half of that amount when I was single.   Do you you really think these people are sittin' home drinkin and screwin' as the kids go hungry and they lose everything they own?  No.  I don't.  But I do feel like they are at home saying "Why can't the government feed me?  Poor me, why can't I get a job?  Why won't nobody hire me."   Now, understand, there are some very powerful forces in this country who want you to think just that. But, really, do you beleive it?  I believe, without powerful forces, but from seeing with my own eyes, that people can get jobs.  They just might not be able to get a job that pays what they were used to.  But what do you do?  Do you continue to get unemployment.  If you can get a job making $1300 a month, do you get it, or do you take the $1200 the government gives you?  Most of these people would take the $1200 the government gives you.  Let's take it a step further.  What if you could get $1150 a month?  Now we're getting somewhere.  Do you go WORK?  Or do you take the $1200 a month?  I'm pretty sure most would agree the fiscally responsible thing to do is to take the $1200 a month.  Right?  But what if that $1200 a month wasn not available?  Hmmmmm.I am reminded of being in New Orleans after Katrina.  A woman was crying on the street.  A very LARGE woman.  She was crying because she said she was hungry.  Now, keep in mind, this woman had received $2000 a month from the government so far (this was the first month after it had hit).  She could get three meals a day from the Red Cross and a shower, etc.But here she is, bawling in front of Wendy's.  On the front door of Wendy's it says "NOW hiring:  Free meal and $1000 for APPLYING inside".  WTF?  That sign should have been taken down after the first ten people showed up, but it had been there for WEEKS!  Why?  Because people are lazy!Demonizing the needy is a repub trick from long ago. Making them out to be useless bums that only need a kick in the rear makes it much easier to turn your back to them and sleep at night. If only it were true, that they are worthless!  No one is demonizing the needy.  We are demonizing the lazy.  I know plenty of people who are needy that are hard workers.  Here's the thing:  If you are industrious, you don't stay needy for too long. Spiff, the view you exibit here is either very naive or very cold hearted. The start a biz comment tells me you haven't thought this out. As for starting a business.  When I started my own RIA, I needed cash.  I was billing in arrears and I left at a really bad time of year.  So I consulted on start-ups and helping people get started running a business.  Most of these people had $20k in debt, a couple of kids, etc.  They received loans and deferred payments (this was not that long ago, btw) once we looked at the different options.  In fact, in my state, there are grants that are put up by non-profits and the local municipalities for people to start businesses.  You need to write a business plan (which the SBA will gladly help with, or I was helping them write it - for a fee).This is the easiest place in the world to start a business.Keep in mind, innovation drives the economy.  Just look at our own industry.  Look at the people coming up wiht new ways to interact with the financial community. New ways to make money.  New ways to provide services for clients.That goes for all sorts of industries.  There are very physically lazy people, who, while they don't want to work hard, will figure out a way to make some money.  They innovate.  Especially if they aren't at home sitting on their fat butts!Why?  Because activity stimulates brain activity.  Stress stimulates brain activity.  I think Spiff is right.

N.D.'s picture
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Joined: 2009-07-13

The people that are truly the driving force behind this great nation are not the people that need unemployment benefit extensions. These wonderful strong economic contributors may need unemployment benefits to help them through a tough time but I can guarantee anyone that WANTS a job will FIND a job. The true spirit of America and the ones that make up its backbone have no problems with humbling themselves a little bit and taking that job others would think is beneath them. You are either naturally motivated or naturally unmotivated. Those that are motivated will find a way to better their situation. Those that are naturally unmotivated will find a way not to work.

RealWorld's picture
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Joined: 2009-07-13

BG- I see two problems with your argument and I generally find intelligence in your banter.First I don't think the republican vs democrat debate is necessary. I am neither and I respect not many people who are either. However, even if you are democrat calling this a republican trick isn't really a good way to look at things. In fact lets just discuss this from an American issue. Lets not polarize each other with nasty ideas of intent.Second- I understand your cries for compassion. However is it really that compassionate of you to want to continue to give people no incentive for getting off this system when you and I both know that the current system has produced generation of laziness, squalor and poor parenting. Is the more compassionate parent the one who gives their drug addict son $10 so he can only buy a little meth or is it the parent who gives their son nothing and turns him to the streets?I feel like your ideology is in fact the most heartless becasue that ideology makes sainthood out of just giving enough to eat but gives no hope for future generations to better themselves.They say that an addict must hit rock bottom before they change. I believe the same to be true to people addicted to entitlement. I also realize the problems with my own logic, there will be more murder, more robbings, more violence but these are a 1 generation problem. Once the folks who are addicted to be given everything to live their life have either changed or died, the next generation will not know the words entitilement. 

Northfield's picture
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There are some 30 million unemployed  Americans. 15 million become unemployed during the last 2 years. They didn't all suddenly succumb to their natural state of laziness. They got fired. And last month the country added 85,000 in private secor jobs. Divide that into 30 million to get a sense of job availability. The notion that the 15 million newly unemployed should just buy a pick up truck and start building houses, cleaning houses or cutting grass is pretty weak reactionary thinking. And comparing them to drug addicts? Shameful IMO. The character issue isn't about the 10% unemployed and whether they're lazy,  it's about the 90% of us who have a job. Do we feel a responsibility to help, or not. If not, just admit it. It's not about the worthiness of the person who doesn't have a job, it's about you. You don't feel an obligation to help. Nothing wrong with that if that's how you feel. Just don't pretend that you'd gladly help if only they were more deserving. Now, it happens, I don't favor continuation of benefits. It's not personal, it's just business. I don't think it's a leveraged use of funds.I do support a continuation of govmnt stimulus. We are not out of the woods, and to be worried about the deficit now is inviting a second recession that will easily slide into a depression. A cliff-notes read of the Great Depression will show that the depression didn't take hold until a really bad recession, which had initially been stimulated into growth by federal spending, morphed into a depression by a reactionary move to quickly cut the deficit and slash spending.So I would support an extension of unemployment benefits if it were tied to a more productive use of the unemployed bodies. Public works projects, etc. Let's get them out of the house and being productive. Trust me, 15 million newly unemployed are not just lazy, drug addicted construction guys. They want to work, we just won't be able to provide the private sector jobs needed to get them back to work for perhaps several years. The government will likely need to be part of the solution. I would just hope for a more thoughtfuland creative solutoin on their part.(I'm pretty certain I'm going to regret wading into this discussion)

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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BG - While I respect your opinion, I couldn't disagree with it more. Most general contracting work can be done with a relatively small group of tools.  Hammer, cordless drill/screwdriver, recip saw, tape measure, chop saw or circular saw, speed square, and a pencil.  The guy that installed my sliding glass door, replaced my back door, and all of my windows didn't use much more than those and maybe some small hand tools.  If he gets bigger jobs that pay him more, he buys other fancier tools he might need on some other jobs.     There isn't a construction worker worth his salt who doesn't have those tools and more in their garage right now.  Or in the tool chest in the bed of their truck that they already own.    Advertising?  Tell your family, friends, and neighbors that you're going into business for yourself.  Print up some business cards on your home computer.  Walk through a neighborhood handing out those business cards while asking to bid some work the homeowner might be considering.  Throw an ad in the local paper.  Word of mouth advertising is really the only way most small contractors work.  My wife has a cousin who has never placed an ad in any paper. Doesn't have business cards.  But yet he feeds his family and has more work than he can handle in the new town they just moved to.  He has a truck and some simple tools.  That's it. Back to your Joe unemployed scenario.  You described the people who most get under my skin to a T.  First, why are you just sitting around?  Why aren't you out pounding the pavement looking for ANY kind of work.  Why is your wife at home if you're happy butt is sitting on the couch unemployed.  If you can't find a job, maybe she can.  Or, gasp, maybe you can both find a job.  One of you can work during the day, one of you at night.  That way you don't have to pay a babysitter.  I know, it sucks, but nobody promised that the pursuit of happiness was going to be fun.The problem is those kind of people wait until it's an emergency to act.  It's only when the government money stops flowing in that Joe figures he'd better get to gettin' and find a way to replace that $1200. 

taxfree's picture
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Northfield - I am sure you are going to regret wading into the issue.Classic example of left wing... Make everyone else feel horrbile if they don't agree with you since you sit on your moral high horse."The character issue isn't about the 10% unemployed and whether they're lazy,  it's about the 90% of us who have a job. Do we feel a responsibility to help, or not. If not, just admit it. It's not about the worthiness of the person who doesn't have a job, it's about you. You don't feel an obligation to help. Nothing wrong with that if that's how you feel. Just don't pretend that you'd gladly help if only they were more deserving. "That is a SICK SICK paragragh... Where is your logical based argument? The old salesman always goes for the guilt trip. RW - says that govt programs are addicting like a drug... you say he is shameful? What is shameful is instead of using a logical arguement and defending your points you just accuse everyone else of being bad people if they don't believe what you do. Kinda like being racist if you were white and didn't vote for Obama. I still can't believe the above paragraph. HELP is an easy word to use. I am struggling with my business. Would you help me by sending me your top 5 clients. Oh wait... you don't think I deserve it. Well it isn't about me deserving it , it is about you being a greedy jerk... Sorry about going off here but seeing your ignorance is not bliss, it is you using a left wing agenda and then irrational - emotional passive aggressive assertions to make your point instead of talking about the real problems.

BondGuy's picture
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Realworld -First,  i'm not a democrat. That said, there aren't too many if any dems holding up extending unemployment benefits.Second, like it or not, your argument above engages the republican dogma of devaluing people. Look at your words. Lazy, squalor, poor ,addict. That's right out of the repub playbook. Makes it easy to deny them doesn't it?Third, you are changing the scope of the original question from one of extending unemployment benefits to one of entitlement. The two are not the same. Prior to the economic meltdown unemployment benefits were very straight forward. You got six months, end of story. And, you've had to prove you were looking for work. Some states put you into an employment pool. They call with a job, you go and you work. So, no multi generational stiffling from living off the man coming from the unemployment benefit policies of this country. if you've got a problem with the welfare system, well, thats another subject.  But i suspect that your problem with welfare is less about the system and more about your stereotype of the people. But i digress in my banter.And, Realword, what do you know of addicts? Are you one? Are you married to one? One of your kids an addict? More book knowledge or just a natural progression from lazy, squalor, poor parenting to drug addicts? All part of the same stereotype? You say "they say an addict has to hit rock bottom before they'll change."  Who is "'they?" And what do your really know of them? I suspect not much because you speak from an unknowing distance.If you want to discuss the welfare system we can, but my comments were limited to the unemployed. Most of whom are hard working people who find themselves in a horrible situation.  Magician - $1200 a month is nothing to sneeze at? Are you serious? Who do you think the average unemployed person is? Do you think it's someone who believes $1200 a month is win fall? $1200 a month is paid to someone who was making $4000 a month prior to getting axed. The guy who was making $300 a month working one day a week  at Burger King doesn't get $1200. Nor does the generational lazy guy in realworld's world. They get little if anything. For the unemployed person who is getting that $1200, there is a $2800 shortfall every month that they've got to cover. And, believe me, the unemployed people I know are working every day to find  jobs.Take the lesser paying job? Would you? My brother is faced with this. He is a plant mgr for a large Pharma company. Well, that is until september when the plant closes for good. At age 56 with 30 years experience, and an MBA, should he go work a line job for 12 bucks an hour? Quite a step down for a guy running a 250 acre manufacturing facility, don't you think? The 30k in unemployment benefits he could receive is a fraction of his salary. So, yeah, he's highly motivated to find another job. Flew to Europe last week for an interview. But step down or hold out for the better job? Not even a question and it shouldn't be.On the start a biz thing - Again I find you and spiff have a disconnect with reality here. We're not talking rich people here. Even if not unemployed most of these guys are week to week employees. That is they are living week to week. This person couldn't get an unsecured loan if their life depended on it. And no bank is going to make a business loan to an under capped start up. Period! Thus no way to get the thousands if not tens of thousands needed to start even a basic business. I'll give you an example. Your guy wants to start a concrete masonry company. He's got five years experience. He needs a truck, tools, forms, and a masonry pump, and a trailer for the pump. The truck is 15k, the tools another 3k. the forms add in another 3k,  but the biggie is the pump, 15k used. And the trailer for the pump, another 4k used. Add that up. The only thing the bank will lend on is the truck. but only if there is an income to make the payment, which there isn't because he's a startup independant contractor. Listening to you guys on this is like listening to Steve Martin's How to make a million dollars and pay no taxes. First get a million dollars!  You all make it sound so turn key, anyone could do it. Just go out there and do it, what's the problem? The problem is it takes money most people don't have or have access to.And BTW, easier to start a business in Hong kong than here. This is not the easiest place to start abusiness.       

RealWorld's picture
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BG- Seriously I don't need to answer what I know about addicts. And is this conversation really worth talking down to me like that?You are right though, I did mix up entitlement and welfare... Although right now we don't have any answers for how long this may go on. To me letting people not work and collect paychecks from uncle sam isn't really different from welfare.Also man you are going to judge me.. and say I am sterotyping? I ask you to actually step outside your box. do you not think that there are people who are on extended unemployment who are lazy or live is squalor or are bad parents? I didn't mean to make the point that everyone that can not find a job for over a YEAR is a degenerate but you have to admit it is in there somewhere. As for your brother - he may have had a good job - but he lost it. I didn't lose it, he did.Really he did... so I am willing to give him unemployment for maybe 6 months but I don't know where your plan seems to end. How long is too long. I also am not meaning to degrade you or anyone on here. I sincerely didn't say that unemployed people were drug addicts. I can see where I typed wrongly, but in the same respect I do think that extending these benefits only adds to the disincentive of actually fixing the orginal problem which is unemployment. I only used the addict part to try to illustrate how tough love may actually be the best medicine. Your point about starting your own business is also out of touch, all some people want is for others to make their own money... I don't need Joe Unemployed to be a millionaire just to feed his kids on his own dime after some help from me. I am simply debating this to understand at what limit we have given too much. 

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Rw - Ok ,fair enough. I was being tough on you because I believe you are talking down about the unemployed. And that somehow those unemployed have gone from honest hard working people to low life scum who don't deserve a helping hand. I have to tell you of all the unemployed people I know,maybe a dozen people,  i know of not one who fits your description. So my question; where does your description of generational laziness come from? I'm sure that there are people who are milking the system. of course there are. So what! The difference between us is that I see them as the exception where as you see them as the rule. But make no mistake, they are the exception. And for those people there will be no change. regardless of what happens. And by the way, we're talking welfare here, not unemployment, because to get unemployment you have first to have had a job. So, the welfare lifers fail on the first count. And that's not to say there aren't people gaming unemployment. There are. But the benefit is not enough for most people to sit back and relax on. That clock is running. On the subject of addicts, regardless of how you meant it's use.  I attacked you there because you come up with the Oprah answer to addiction. The stereotyped answer. "They say an addict has to hit rock bottom before they'll change." What a load of bullshit! Think about the logic of that line in this context: Addiction is a disease. Fully recognised as such by the AMA.  Medical science has uncovered hereditary propensity for addiction. It's in the genes. In other words, addicts don't chose to become addicts.  An addict has a disease that they had NO control over getting. Not a thing they could have done to affect the outcome. You can go home tonite and knock down a few beers no problem. An addict can't. You can take a hit off a bong and walk away, an addict can't. This is the way of addiction. Not their choice, just the way it is.  So, being that drug addiction is a disease over which the addict has no control, they were predisposed to , how does an addict change that after hitting rock bottom? Answer : They can't change it. Anymore than a cancer patient can change their disease. So much for pop medicine and stereotypes!Spiff- In my state you need a license to become a contractor. The people you are discribing are the people our state is trying to get rid of. Too much fraud.To get a license you need to be an LLC (defacto) and have insurance to get a license. You need a tax ID number. You also need a street address with a working phone line registered to that address. In addition to the state license you need a license from the county  and town you are domicled in. All up, in fees and legal cost 4 or 5 grand before you drive your first nail. Delaware is easier. But nothing is free.

Northfield's picture
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Taxfree -my view was not a left wing view, but a libertarian view. That is that I am not for govmnt intervention because it does not generally work. It may be worthy and honorable. But it still doesn't tend to work.

Although you did not take a position, I believe we probably agree on the end result. I'm just trying to be honest on how I get to the conclusion that employment benefits should probably not be extended beyond current provisions. It's not that the unemployed don't deserve it or are lazy. It just isn't a good use of the funds and we could use the money elsewhere. Like I said - it's not personal, just business.

N.D.'s picture
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BondGuy wrote:Take the lesser paying job? Would you? My brother is faced with this. He is a plant mgr for a large Pharma company. Well, that is until september when the plant closes for good. At age 56 with 30 years experience, and an MBA, should he go work a line job for 12 bucks an hour? Quite a step down for a guy running a 250 acre manufacturing facility, don't you think? The 30k in unemployment benefits he could receive is a fraction of his salary. So, yeah, he's highly motivated to find another job. Flew to Europe last week for an interview. But step down or hold out for the better job? Not even a question and it shouldn't be."Take a lesser paying job? Would you?" - Yes without a doubt."But step down or hold out for the better job?" - Are you fucking serious? How about get a job then look for a better one? If you want to sit on your ass until the job you want becomes available then live off of your own savings not my dime!

taxfree's picture
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I know and have about 5 clients who are unemployed and I know many people who are currently drawing unemployment.The ones who were not lazy actually took census jobs. Literally 4 people I know took census jobs. However not 1 union person did. Not one. What that tells me is that there are certainly a lot of different people on unemployment. Bondguy - Damn you are really lost here. "So what if they are milking the system" that is about the most unamerican thing that you can say. This country was not built on programs paying people for doing nothing. Also if you really believe that the unemployed have to be seriously looking for a job, the conversation is over. That is STUPID and if you really know that many unemployed you would know that that is simply not true. Northfield - Libertarian? Government intervention... I guess maybe the only explanation if that is really true is if you are religous... That would add up for your DUMB ASS comments about it being about the people working not the people not working.... That still doesn't add up at all.I can anyone who hasn't worked and is allowing their checks to be paid with government aid in 6 months lazy.Bondguy - the thing about your brother is a great example. Did you not talk to him about saving? Something tells me that he stupidly bought a really nice house, nice cars, maybe even sent a kid to a private school. If he didn't network in the industry of HIS choice well enough to land another gig, tough shit. This is why you save your money and don't spend everything that you make at your job you have worked for 30 years. I literally am shocked you use him as an example to me he is an example of what is messed up here. When times are good spend everything that you have and when they are bad cry to the federal government and elect dumb ass people who will pay for you while bankrupting the country. No one is going to hire a 56 yr old with an MBA who isn't a total awesome worker b/c he probably was overcompensated in the eyes of the industry. Still a few questions for people who WRONGLY assume it is ok to continue this entitlement program.1. When will it be enough? You can not say when the jobs come back because we all know they won't for a lot of the 50-60 yr old people. 2. How does extending unemployment help putting people back to work?Is it really too much to ask to cap unemployment at 6 months?

I am legend's picture
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Well said

BondGuy's picture
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Taxfree, I see that you are new here. Welcome! It's my hope that you will chime in on business related matters as well as social and political issues. On the looking for a job issue - I'm trying to follow what you are saying. Are you saying that I'm stupid if i believe unemployed are looking for jobs? If that's what you are saying I have to ask; how is it stupid to believe the unemployed are looking for jobs when in my state you need to show proof of that search to claim benefits? Benefits are claimed every two weeks. No proof, no check.  No belief system needed. On my causal attitude towards those gaming the system - an extreme minority who are not going to change. These people are also the people who are irresponsible in every walk of life and are always looking for ways to get over on others. Again, where i live this type of bum is in the extreme minority. I take it from your reaction that this type of lowlife is not in the minority in your neck of the woods? Thus your outrage? I guess i'd be frustrated to if i lived in your neighborhood. I don't like those kind of people any more than you do. I'm just glad i don't have to live around them or near them. About my brother. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I ask, because you need to show me where i said my brother was fiscally irresponsible? What i said was he was losing his job. That's it!  Yet, you use your misreading of my comment to launch into your soapbox diatribe  about  misguided entitlement programs helping those not worthy. Your argument is no different that RW's. He makes the needy out be worthless vermin, you make them out as fiscally irresponsible. Both put those in need in the same place - not worth helping. Convenient! Is six months unemployment enough? In a near depression not nearly.Perhaps you see something in the unemployment numbers that i don't? You are aware that those falling off the backend of unemployment, where benefits have run out, are no longer counted as unemployed? Any idea what the real number is?How does unemployment help put people back to work? Again, where i live, not where you live, it keeps people actively looking for work. Unfortunately that work isn't coming until the economy turns. ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunites. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task. As i said my brother flew to europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" catagory. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat)As a side note i've advised him to retire. He's got the dough. money isn't an issue. He's just a driven individual. Still, i told him to get his captain's license and work for a yacht company delivering boats. getting the license is a formality as he has years of experience piloting large boats. He loves boats, being on the water, it's a natural fit. He says he's not ready for the pasture.  

N.D.'s picture
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BondGuy wrote:ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunities. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task. As I said my brother flew to Europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" category. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgeable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat) Are you talking about unemployment benefits or difficulties finding employment? I understand the difficulties finding a comparable job to the one you brother lost, since we are using him for an example. But he would be considered a professional middle to upper class white collar type of person and should have enough knowledge/experience to hedge his risks which would include losing his job. I would hope he had the since to live within his means too. If so he should have a substantial cash reserve. (just using him for an example no accusations implied)Unemployment benefits were not designed for this type of professional. Unemployment benefits were designed for the middle to lower class blue collar worker hence the max of $300-$400 ish per week maximum income in my state. And if you think "proving" to search for a job is difficult let me assure you it is easy as any other scam.My final and formal opinion of unemployment benefits are similar to the housing credit that just ended. I see the reason and understand the necessity to some point but it must end or you cannot define the line between hand ups and handouts. I would recommend a phase out or monthly reduction in the benefits. You see what happened to the housing market when the $8000 credit was ended. Why instead of extending that program did they not try to ratchet it down $1000 or $2000 per month until it reaches $0. That is what should have been placed in affect for unemployment because I guarantee you the majority of recipients will not look for work until the benefits either stop or they drop below a level where they cannot continue the lifestyle they choose to live.

Magician's picture
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Joined: 2008-05-19

BondGuy wrote:Taxfree, I see that you are new here. Welcome! It's my hope that you will chime in on business related matters as well as social and political issues. On the looking for a job issue - I'm trying to follow what you are saying. Are you saying that I'm stupid if i believe unemployed are looking for jobs? If that's what you are saying I have to ask; how is it stupid to believe the unemployed are looking for jobs when in my state you need to show proof of that search to claim benefits? Benefits are claimed every two weeks. No proof, no check.  No belief system needed. On my causal attitude towards those gaming the system - an extreme minority who are not going to change. These people are also the people who are irresponsible in every walk of life and are always looking for ways to get over on others. Again, where i live this type of bum is in the extreme minority. I take it from your reaction that this type of lowlife is not in the minority in your neck of the woods? Thus your outrage? I guess i'd be frustrated to if i lived in your neighborhood. I don't like those kind of people any more than you do. I'm just glad i don't have to live around them or near them. About my brother. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I ask, because you need to show me where i said my brother was fiscally irresponsible? What i said was he was losing his job. That's it!  Yet, you use your misreading of my comment to launch into your soapbox diatribe  about  misguided entitlement programs helping those not worthy. Your argument is no different that RW's. He makes the needy out be worthless vermin, you make them out as fiscally irresponsible. Both put those in need in the same place - not worth helping. Convenient! Is six months unemployment enough? In a near depression not nearly.Perhaps you see something in the unemployment numbers that i don't? You are aware that those falling off the backend of unemployment, where benefits have run out, are no longer counted as unemployed? Any idea what the real number is?How does unemployment help put people back to work? Again, where i live, not where you live, it keeps people actively looking for work. Unfortunately that work isn't coming until the economy turns. ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunites. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task. As i said my brother flew to europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" catagory. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat)As a side note i've advised him to retire. He's got the dough. money isn't an issue. He's just a driven individual. Still, i told him to get his captain's license and work for a yacht company delivering boats. getting the license is a formality as he has years of experience piloting large boats. He loves boats, being on the water, it's a natural fit. He says he's not ready for the pasture.   This is a mistake.  A little experience is needed yes.  But at some point, an aged pilot can actually increase your chances of a crash.Your brother, of course, would not even need unemployment, so what is the problem?  Obviously, he is smart and hardworking.  He didn't get to be where he was by not being those things.However, I would say the majority who remain on unemployment and out of the workforce are there because they are too lazy to find a job.  There is no incentive to get a decent paying job.$1200 a month is better than no-hundred dollars a month and will allow you to eat.  I think what we are trying to say is, if you have NO OTHER options, you get a job that pays the bills.  To do otherwise is weaksauce.  I volunteer at homeless shelters and see it all of the time.  Here is a good example.  My neighbor has been laid off for about five months.  On unemployment.  He is an IT guy.  An IT manager.  My home network wasn't working.  I went over asked him to look at it.  He came in, split the network, did some fancy smancy stuff and was in and out in less than thirty minutes.  Network works great.  I gave him $100 for his efforts.  Then asked him to come to the office.  Gave him another $150 (there were phones and other stuff to do too).  This was last week.He now has 12 jobs booked.  Three are from businesses that are clients' of mine.  9 are from the neighborhood.  Do you know what he's been doing the last five months?  Playing video games.  In fact, when I get home from WORK, he asks me to get online.  He doesn't realize that just because I come home at 4, doesn't mean I still don't have work to do.  I make dinner and then go back to the office.Regardless, he knows his unemployment benefits will be ending soon.  And now he has a business.  Imagine that.

I am legend's picture
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Joined: 2010-03-04

The IT guy you referenced should have his unemployment benefits end already since he is working as an independent contractor.  This is what so many people do.  I know of several who milk out the unemployment and are working for cash. 

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

N.D. wrote:BondGuy wrote:ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunities. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task. As I said my brother flew to Europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" category. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgeable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat) Are you talking about unemployment benefits or difficulties finding employment? I understand the difficulties finding a comparable job to the one you brother lost, since we are using him for an example. But he would be considered a professional middle to upper class white collar type of person and should have enough knowledge/experience to hedge his risks which would include losing his job. I would hope he had the since to live within his means too. If so he should have a substantial cash reserve. (just using him for an example no accusations implied)How long would you last (not you personally, but most high wage earners) if your income suddenly and unexpectedly went away? Went away forever? For most, there is a breaking point where something has to give. My point, it has nothing to do with fiscal responsibility. Those less responsible will reach that point sooner than those more fiscally responsible. But all will reach the breaking point. Making it about fiscal responsibilty gives the hard line anti entitlement crowd an out. It's a spin that allows them to turn their back on their neighbors in need.Unemployment benefits were not designed for this type of professional. Unemployment benefits were designed for the middle to lower class blue collar worker hence the max of $300-$400 ish per week maximum income in my state. And if you think "proving" to search for a job is difficult let me assure you it is easy as any other scam.Unemployment benefits are designed for everybody. But, I'll agree that the working wealthy could get by without it. The point is, it's not a living wage for anyone. At least it's not here in the Northeast. While there may be plenty of people gaming disability payments, playing around with unemployment isn't usually worth it. Why? The benefit is realtive to the previous income while employed. So, if the guy was making $500 a week before getting laid off, their benefit would be in the $150 - $175 a week range. Not enough to motivate someone to beat the system so they can stay home and play playstation. $800 a week gets you about $300 a week and so on. So, not a way to live the life of Riley.As for scamming the system, Ok, tell me how?  A form has to be completed with names of firms contacted for employment. The form asks for phone number and dates of application. Lie about this and it's 3 to 5 years in the state pen. Don't complete the form, and no check that week. I'm not saying it's fool proof, just not enough money in this,  not worth doing 3 to 5 for trying it. My final and formal opinion of unemployment benefits are similar to the housing credit that just ended. I see the reason and understand the necessity to some point but it must end or you cannot define the line between hand ups and handouts. I would recommend a phase out or monthly reduction in the benefits. You see what happened to the housing market when the $8000 credit was ended. Why instead of extending that program did they not try to ratchet it down $1000 or $2000 per month until it reaches $0. That is what should have been placed in affect for unemployment because I guarantee you the majority of recipients will not look for work until the benefits either stop or they drop below a level where they cannot continue the lifestyle they choose to live.

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Magician wrote: This is a mistake.  A little experience is needed yes.  But at some point, an aged pilot can actually increase your chances of a crash.That you'll have to prove to me. The point isn't about old pilots. it was about devaluing some of our most valuable employees. The ones with the most experience. How old was Reagan when he was elected President? But, if you want to talk about old pilots, the story of United Flight 232 comes to mind. OK, no miracle on the Hudson. 111 of the 285 on board died. But that anyone lived was through the effort of the then one month shy of retirement Captain. A guy named Al Haynes who managed to get a mortally wounded  jumbo jet on the ground at an airport. The black boxes were recovered and the data programed into flight simulators. Airline pilots are required to undergo sim training on a regular basis. To date, few pilots who are exposed to this situation do more than create a giant smoking hole in the ground as the simuation rolls the plane over on its back, as it tried to do in real life, stopped by Capt Al, and then begins a death spiral. The few that get near the airport lose it and create the smoking hole there. None has done as well as Old Al Haynes did in real life. So, not so fast on devaluing an old experienced hand. Your brother, of course, would not even need unemployment, so what is the problem?  Obviously, he is smart and hardworking.  He didn't get to be where he was by not being those things.The spin from the hardcore anti entitlement crowd is that people are bilking unemployment. This spin gives them grounds to deny those in need a helping hand. I use my brother as an example of how no one in their right mind is out to bik unemployment because of the large gap between the working paycheck and the benefit. My brother is a bad example, not because of the paycheck/benefit gap, but because he has means of support. Still, the argument holds up because the benefit recieved is relative to the working paycheck. A $25,000 a year worker doesn't recieve $25,000 in benefits. That worker would get at most $175 a week. Let's call it $8000 a year. Where is the incentive to lay back? Everything is relative, a 25k guy can't live on 8 or 10k anymore than a 150k guy can live on 30k and those amounts wouldn't be an incentive to do so.  That's the point. You guys act as if someone making 10k a year loses his job, kicks back and gets 20k in benefits.However, I would say the majority who remain on unemployment and out of the workforce are there because they are too lazy to find a job.  There is no incentive to get a decent paying job.Look at the numbers above. maybe not exact, but really close. Tell me someone with the wolf at the door has no incentive to replace their lost income. Are you serious? What you're doing is spinning it so that you don't have to extend a helping hand. By spinning the reality that these folks are innocent victims of the economic downturn into irresponsible bums too lazy to look for work you can turn your back. You can walk away without regret. After-all, they don't deserve any help! That about cover it from your POV?$1200 a month is better than no-hundred dollars a month and will allow you to eat.  Agree, which is the point of getting a benefit. But for a family of four it will do little more than provide basic food, and gas money. It's not going to replace an income.  Remember, the 25k guy doesn't even get that amount. I think what we are trying to say is, if you have NO OTHER options, you get a job that pays the bills.  To do otherwise is weaksauce.  Yes and no. If you lost your job would you take a a job a Wal- Mart for 8 bucks an hour? Not if it's going to cost you a chance of maintaining your current lifestyle. I volunteer at homeless shelters and see it all of the time.  Here is a good example.  My neighbor has been laid off for about five months.  On unemployment.  He is an IT guy.  An IT manager.  My home network wasn't working.  I went over asked him to look at it.  He came in, split the network, did some fancy smancy stuff and was in and out in less than thirty minutes.  Network works great.  I gave him $100 for his efforts.  Then asked him to come to the office.  Gave him another $150 (there were phones and other stuff to do too).  This was last week.He now has 12 jobs booked.  Three are from businesses that are clients' of mine.  9 are from the neighborhood.  Do you know what he's been doing the last five months?  Playing video games.  In fact, when I get home from WORK, he asks me to get online.  He doesn't realize that just because I come home at 4, doesn't mean I still don't have work to do.  I make dinner and then go back to the office.Regardless, he knows his unemployment benefits will be ending soon.  And now he has a business.  Imagine that.No, he doesn't have a business. He's using a skill to temporarily collect some  income. Most likely unreportable income. Unsustainable in the long run. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I get it, desperation is the mother of invention. But using a skill to get some cash flow going is not a long term solution. It's unlikely that all he's doing is sitting around. If so, he is the exception, not the rule. In some fields getting one or two interviews a month is as good as it gets in this economy. Throw in a job fair or two, a few networking lunches, and maybe sometime taking online course to better his situation. No reason to sign up for Steven's Tranport to drive a chicken truck.

N.D.'s picture
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Joined: 2009-07-13

Weekly unemployment benefits by state

State Maximum State Maximum

Alabama $255 Montana $407
Alaska $370 Nebraska $308
Arizona $240 Nevada $362
Arkansas $409 New Hampshire $427
California $450 New Jersey $584
Colorado $475 New Mexico $455
Connecticut $519 New York $405
Delaware $330 North Carolina $494
District of Columbia $359 North Dakota $385
Florida $275 Ohio $372
Georgia $330 Oklahoma $392
Hawaii $545 Oregon $482
Idaho $362 Pennsylvania $539
Illinois $385 Rhode Island $528
Indiana $390 South Carolina $326
Iowa $443 South Dakota $285
Kansas $423 Tennessee $275
Kentucky $415 Texas $378
Louisiana $284 Utah $444
Maine $496 Vermont $409
Maryland $380 Virginia $378
Massachusetts $628 Washington $541
Michigan $365 West Virginia $424
Minnesota $566 Wisconsin $363
Mississippi $230 Wyoming $387
Missouri $320

N.D.'s picture
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Joined: 2009-07-13

Well you are being obtuse. Here is an example for you. One of my buddies, (as Kid Rock said, I slept in dumpsters and got high with Kings so I have friends of every size shape and color) that doesn’t like to work, lost his job just across the state line in KY. He applied for unemployment and receives the max which is about $400 a month. Every six weeks he submits online all of three places he submitted a resume to. That’s it next six weeks approved. TRUE STORY. I don't know what world you live in but in the real world the average income of a US citizen is $50,000 so at $400 per week unemployment will sustain the average worker for a while. And maximum benefits are attained below the average income range so unemployment benefits by design are not meant for above average income earners.As for the question about what would I do if my income suddenly went to zero? I would adjust accordingly. What would you do if your income suddenly doubled? Go out and buy two of everything you have? So let me get this right, you are saying it is ok for people to not have 6-12 months minimum cash reserve or are you saying we should feel sorry for them and subsidize their income since they do not? Neighbors in need should lean on charitable organizations and non-profits where I donate as a choice not through the government where I am forced to "donate"I mean this in the nicest way BG when I say your comments lead me to believe you are totally out of touch with the real world.

JumpMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-06-08

If you can say "Welcome to McDonalds" you can get a job.  Unemployment benefits are akin to welfare after 3 months.  People need to do what they have to do to survive.  If it involves taking a lower paying job, losing the house, the starbucks, and the fancy car so be it. 

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Headline in today's local paper "Unemployment fraud on the rise."I guess you guys are right, it's a huge problem. Not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!No fraud is good but taking the numbers apart here's how it breaksdown in my state:Unemployment fraud is up 40% year to date. That looks bad, but  it is still below the 2008 level. 2008 was lower than the peak in 2006. Most importantly, over the past five years less than 1% of benefits paid have been due to fraud. Fraud includes working while still collecting benefits, under the table income, and falsifying employment benefit forms. The state estimates that it recovers 2/3 of the benefits paid due to fraud. It also pursues those who defraud the state by filing criminal charges against them.Ok, less than 1% of benefits paid are due to fraud - where's the problem?Even if that number was doubled, is this a problem? 66 cents on every dollar lost to fraud is recovered.Where's the problem?There is no problem. Just a mean spirited group of people who want to deny help to those who need it.ND - you are living on another planet if you honestly believe you would "adjust accordingly" if you lost your income. You really have no idea what that means. I find a comfortable naivety in your statements.  And about the six months reserve - you keep pounding that fiscally irresponsible button. That really gets you off the hook doesn't it? Ok, what happens after six months? Many of the long term unemployed are coming up on two years of unemployment. These people did everything right. Lived within their means, had six months reserve, now gone. What about them. Turn your back on them as well?This isn't about feeling sorry for anyone. It's about helping your fellow man. Giving them a hand up. If you believe there is something wrong with that and it puts me out of touch, well then, so be it. I'm glad to be out of touch with the world of hate in which you live. And I mean that in the nicest way.One aspect of this debate that i find fascinating is the roll of the Christian right. These people are Christians. Yet, as a group they are among first in line to deny entitlements. Apparently, they live compartmentalized lives where they don't see their actions of denial as juxtoposed to living the faith they profess. When i see one of these types with a bumper sticker that reads 'What would Jesus do?'" I have to think Jesus wouldn't turn his back on anyone in need, blowing them off as unworthy. The truth is the entitlement debate is about politics. This confuses people. Gets them acting against their own best interest. In this case in a religious sense.   

JumpMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-06-08

I like Jesus, I just wish he'd hurry up and finish my taco!  I think it's cool he has a job and I doubt free loading idiots that suck off someone elses teet would stand up well in the view of the lord.

RealWorld's picture
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Joined: 2009-07-13

How long should we give unemployment benefits?How does extending unemployment benefits help get people back to work?What happens if we don't extend unemployment past 4 months?

N.D.'s picture
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Joined: 2009-07-13

That's it Navet aka BondGuy, blame it on the Christians. You know Jesus can create bread and fish so of course he would help the unfortunate out. But not me, I am just a poor sinner that lives WELL WITHIN my means. Trust me, if I can eat fucking beans and cornbread for years while I put myself through school, these lazy fuckers can collect aluminum cans or something. I know worst case scenario, my home and food is covered no matter what.As for your state, who is really keeping up with the fraud numbers? The number of people on unemployment is overwhelming so no one has time to really investigate fraud.I have a suggestion for you since I am in a giving mood tonight. How about unemployment benefits are exchanged for college credit hours or community service hours? Believe me when I say I am ALL about hand ups but not hand outs.Apparently unlike you and your fancy ass boats, I am not leveraged at all! I can afford not to work another day, if i choose.

Magician's picture
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Joined: 2008-05-19

I bought a $120k house in a nice, safe neighborhood (it's worth about $180 now).  I drive a Compact, non-gas guzzling car.We cook most of our meals, and we buy our groceries clipping coupons.  I net over six figs.  I'll never have to worry about unemployment (of course, I'm self-employed).  People like me did everything right.  For the record, I'm guessing BG is not leveraged at all and probably pays cash for everything.  He's been in the business a long time and I'm guessing has been hitting seven figures for quite some time.Regardless, I can disagree with him and others without making personal attacks.  Let's try and keep this civil.

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

ND - I wasn't trying to get under your skin. Just an observation that many Christians seem not to live their faith. How does one profess to be a follower of Jesus and then deny help to those in need? And, when you bring it up they get in your face about it. I readily admit to not being the world's best Christian. But even i know there are no qualifiers in the Bible. Regardless of your means you help people. You have many ill concieved beliefs about the unemployed. Lazy Fuckers being one of them. And, your convinced that this group is lacking fiscal responsibility. Generally, not true. The unemployed are a cross section of american workers. Some are very hard working, some not so much, with the middle ground covering the average. I find it hard to believe that there is anyplace in this country where one could kick back on unemployment benefits and get a tan. From what you guys are saying, it's doable in your neck of the woods. No doable here in the high cost Northeast. As for my leveraged fancy sailboat something you should know. In the best of times boat financing is a crap shoot. Even withh a plus 800 FICO, big stable income, and plenty of skin in the game(DP), the average person gets screwed when financing a boat. For that reason it's not advised under any circumstances. When it comes to financing a bluewater sailboat it gets worse. The term bluewater means the boat is capable of ocean passage making. Thus an owner could weigh anchor and sail away from their responsibilities including the bank that holds the note.  For this reason obtaining financing on such a vessel is practically impossible. More so these days. The boat I'm trying to buy ( I thought it was a done deal but there's a hiccup on the seller's side) is just such a boat. That said, in this environment it's unlikely i could get financed for the boat. On bluewater sailboats in this price range it's pretty much cash is king. Most buyers are dreamers who have sold their homes  for a shot at living the dream.  They put that cash into the purchase. This reduces their cost to living/sailing expenses and puts the adventure withing range of a surprising number of average people. I'm sorry the boat bothers you so much. RW - We need to get over the hump on the recovery. Creating an underclass of poor isn't going to do that. Unfortunately, if the economy doesn't pick up the answer is probably something like parts of an FDR like New Deal. Here's a fact - the infrastructure in this country is crumbling. Massive public works project to rebuild it ? Put millions to work and have something of great value to show for it.About this thread - summer duldrums - I long for heated debate with Mikebutler222. Entertainment!!! 

navet's picture
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Joined: 2010-02-25

Ignore ND, Bond Guy. He's just pissed because the first person he sees every day is his ugly cousin..er...wife...OK same thing. And I don't ever seeing the words "lazy fu-ker" in the bible. Keep preaching ND...btw...maybe you should consider sheep?

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

Back to the Christians - My Bible tells me to help the widows and the orphans.  It tells me to help the poor and the needy.  It also says that if a man shall not work, neither shall he eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10).  I think this is where most Christians lose their giving spirit.  I can quote you all kinds of verses from Proverbs that talk about being lazy.  BG - you're comment about the WWJD bumper stickers makes me think that Jesus would say get off your butt and go get a job.  There are way too many verses in the Bible that reference laziness, slothfulness, and work for me to think otherwise.  Now, I also know that a lot of churches are willing to help those that come and ask for it.  I know my church has a fund, not a small one BTW, specifically designated for people who have lost their jobs and can't pay for the basics of life.  Every church I've ever been a part of has a similar fund.  In addition to that, most churches support some sort of shelter or food pantry to help people in need.  I think there is a huge difference between the Biblical command to help the poor and needy and being OK with extending unemployment benefits. 

navet's picture
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Stupidity is by birth, ignorance is by choice. Right now, most (and I say the vast majority) of unemployed want to find work more than anything. What is available right now usually pays much less and has no benefits(can you say universal healthcare?). Most people either have been out of work in this economy or know several people who are struggling. To call these struggling people "lazy fu-kers" is not only untrue, it is profoundly stupid. As usual, republicans are on the wrong side of this issue. These unemployed, their friends and their family will vote accordingly. The good news is that it will lead to a progressive rennaisance, in my opinion long overdue. So keep calling these folks names, neocon nazis. Every time I hear you bornagins say "lazy fu-ker" I hear the word  "victory".

Magician's picture
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I'll never understand political idealogues.I like how both sides are using words like "vast majority" and "most".  How in the world do you know?Do you work at an unemployment office?If you have anectodotal experience, then fine.  But I would venture to guess most of us don't.  I simply have some examples of people I know (or who are clients).  As for the comment, "most people want to work", I think this is false.  This, of course is my opinion.  But how many people have worked in a corporate environment?  How many of the people there actuallly WORK?Not many.  In fact, I'm guessing 20% of the people do most of the work, like anywhere else.  So, you are saying these people want to work, I think you are meaning to say that they want a "job".  And I think that most people can agree on that.  

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navet - Woodrow Wilson must be your hero.  I'd be curious to hear what it is that you mean by a progressive renaissance.  What does that mean for the future of our country?  What does that mean to us socio-econimically?  Politically?  Just a guess on my part, but I'm guessing we're going to find that your progressive renaissance wouldn't make Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, or Ben Franklin very happy.  But Woodrow Wilson will LOVE it.    Neocon Nazis?  Seriously?  We disagree with your progressive views, so we're neocon Nazis?  You know there's a difference between a conservative and a neocon.  You might want to figure that out before you start hurling insults.  

navet's picture
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Magician wrote:I'll never understand political idealogues.I like how both sides are using words like "vast majority" and "most".  How in the world do you know?Do you work at an unemployment office?If you have anectodotal experience, then fine.  But I would venture to guess most of us don't.  I simply have some examples of people I know (or who are clients).  As for the comment, "most people want to work", I think this is false.  This, of course is my opinion.  But how many people have worked in a corporate environment?  How many of the people there actuallly WORK?Not many.  In fact, I'm guessing 20% of the people do most of the work, like anywhere else.  So, you are saying these people want to work, I think you are meaning to say that they want a "job".  And I think that most people can agree on that.   Of course "20% do the work" isn't anecdotal.....lol

navet's picture
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Clueless is no way to go through life sfiffy! Ben Franklyn was very progressive. George Washington, as president, followed the recommendations of Alexander Hamilton, who was very progressive with respect to debt and the exchanges. Thomas Jefferson suffered from extreme inconsistency, backtracked on political philosophy when he was faced with the reality of the presidenct(aka, Lousianna purchase). Maybe you neocon christian nazis shoul read something more in depth than glen bicker.

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BG - I think you have me all wrong and completely right at the same time. I do want and try to help as much as I can. I do not believe in being forced to do so. I noticed you did not respond to my comment of exchanging unemployement checks for college credits or community service hours worked. Trust me when I say I know all about falling on hard times, but I would not move in with my neighbor and lounge around on his couch for months without giving something back. So let me restate my POV if I am forced to pay for entitlements, I expect something in return. I personally think there should be more given to the <18 and >65 crowd because of what they can do for this country and what I hope they have done for this country.Also for the Bible comments, I will just say that if you let someone get between you and God, well guess who is closer.Navet - Why do you always start with the Republican nazi hell fire and brimstone everytime? good grief dude...

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OK, fine.  We'll put our disagreements on history aside for the time being.  You still didn't answer my original questions, so I'll repeat them for you.  You're looking forward to this progressive renaissance.  What does that mean for the future of our country?  What does that mean to us socio-econimically?  Politically?I'm curious what a brilliant mind like yours believes will be a positive outcome for our country if this progressive renaissance comes to fruition. Oh yeah, and it's Ben Franklin.  With an I not a Y. 

Magician's picture
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navet wrote:Magician wrote:I'll never understand political idealogues.I like how both sides are using words like "vast majority" and "most".  How in the world do you know?Do you work at an unemployment office?If you have anectodotal experience, then fine.  But I would venture to guess most of us don't.  I simply have some examples of people I know (or who are clients).  As for the comment, "most people want to work", I think this is false.  This, of course is my opinion.  But how many people have worked in a corporate environment?  How many of the people there actuallly WORK?Not many.  In fact, I'm guessing 20% of the people do most of the work, like anywhere else.  So, you are saying these people want to work, I think you are meaning to say that they want a "job".  And I think that most people can agree on that.   Of course "20% do the work" isn't anecdotal.....lolInteresting, you leave out the part, "I would guess", yet quote the entire thing.  What is interesting is that you don't even qualify your statements.  You think that you "know" everything.Navet, you are exactly what is wrong with this country.  You only see and hear what you want to hear.  Just like those ridiculous partisan hacks that fill up Capitol Hill.

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Magician's picture
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You and navet are like opposite ends of the same stick.  Partisan bickering about what is right and what is wrong, what is progressive, what is conservative.The truth, as always, is somewhere in between.

RealWorld's picture
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Respectfully speaking to both points.... Spiff & Magician - Is it possible that although you can make it past hard times and still keep your head on straight that there are people in our country who are simply not able to take care of themselves like you? I mean to say maybe we are all not equal in terms of intelligence or capability and it is possibly unfair for you to say "I made it on XYZ, why can't Joe Unemployed down the street do the same?".Bond guy and Navet- I disagree that most people on unemployment want to find work. I really think that you are wrong there. They want to find work that pays as well as the job they left (and maybe offers the same level of low productivity as we know the least productive jobs are the ones missing now) , but that is certainly different than finding work in general. I personally disagree that not extending unemployment is going to create a new under class of poor. I almost find that idea absurd in a respectful manner. Premise A. Unemployed are not lazyPremise B. Not extending unemployment will leave the unemployed in a permanent state of poverty.I think those statements are contradictory. If the majority of unemployed are not lazy; then obviously when !#$#$ hits the fan, they are going to find work, make work, get work, hell I bet Edward Jones would have a hiring frenzy with all these people willing to knock on doors for 5 years Last question - Some of us have talked about putting people back to work on infastructure. Sounds great... is it possible, if so what infastructure? Where? How much would it cost? My bet is less than the blank check for unemployment.

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RW - certainly there are a few people in the unemployment lines who are not as intelligent as me.    But, I think the average person who suddenly finds himself or herself out of work for over 6 months really needs to reevaluate where they are in life and what changes they could possibly make to make themselves more marketable.  A couple of examples come to mind.  First a friend who used to be a home inspector.  Well, that was great when the RE market was booming, but not so much now.  He took some classes at the local CC and is now working in a local hospital as some sort of receptionist type job.  He's making decent money and paying his bills.  He's also contributing to a 401k for the first time in his life.  He made a change when he realized something needed to change.  Second is a relative of mine who got out of college, many years ago, and just couldn't find a job in his field.  He is trained as an Electrical Engineer.  Went to the best engineering school in the state and graduated with a good GPA.  Unfortunately, so did a lot of other folks.  He worked two jobs, completely unrelated to his degree, for about a year, just to make sure there was food on the table at home.  Finally he decided that there was one place that doesn't turn away any able bodied people willing to do the work.  He joined the Army.  Spent 6 years in the Army, got out and went into the National Guard, and landed a job as a security guard at a nuclear power plant.  He started talking with the people who worked there and they found out about his EE degree and encouraged him to apply.  His time in the military and his EE degree landed him a job.  So now he's got a 401k, pension from his company and eventually the military, has two incomes, and a pretty rosy future (minus the misc trips to Iraq, Kosovo, and Bosnia).  Again another person who made a change when a change was necessary.  I'm not saying that it's possible to raise a family or even pay the bills on unemployment checks.  I'm positive it wouldn't be for me and my family.  I'm also positive that if for some reason I find myself in the unemployment lines, I would be willing to take any job that just simply paid the bills.  Even if it meant I only got $100 more a month than what the unemployment check would have been, I'd take it.  This refusal of some people to go outside their normal field of employment is a big problem.  I searched on monster.com yesterday for a few minutes and found over 250 entry level, no degree required jobs just in my city alone.  I'm positive there are jobs out there for the people willing to take them.  They might not be the kind of job you want to keep for the rest of your working career, but in my opinion it's better to be working at anything than to be taking a handout from the government.   

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