Any Way You Cut It, Kerry's A Jerk!

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doberman's picture
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Does it really matter what party affiliation you belong to? Does it matter whether you're for or against the war?
What Kerry said about "either you're smart or you're stuck in Iraq" is a blatant disrespect of our military. (Of course, I'm paraphrasing here, but the gist is the same.)
Republican or Democrat, it stinks to high heaven and Kerry's the only one who's been eating beans!

NOFX's picture
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"reporting for dity"  - what a donkey.

badmove?'s picture
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Its duty, u donkey.
Shouldn't you be out with the girls trick or treating

NOFX's picture
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you put in for Orbcomm ?

NOFX's picture
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i is right next to u.  I didn't go to secretarial school like you -

BrokerRecruit's picture
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I agree.  Whether you are a Dem. or Rep., disrespect such as that is uncalled for.  The fact that he won't apologize only continues this disregard for those that are fighting for his right to say things that display his idiocy.

Starka's picture
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Gee. A pompous pseudo-intellectual who married into money makes another truly ignorant statement, then won't back away from it.
It seems they're everywhere!

My Inner Child's picture
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John Kerry is a coward. He was a coward in Viet Nam and he's a coward on our soil.

BondGuy's picture
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doberman wrote:
Does it really matter what party affiliation you belong to? Does it matter whether you're for or against the war?
What Kerry said about "either you're smart or you're stuck in Iraq" is a blatant disrespect of our military. (Of course, I'm paraphrasing here, but the gist is the same.)
Republican or Democrat, it stinks to high heaven and Kerry's the only one who's been eating beans!

You're really buying into this? Dobe, you're smarter than this.
If you turn off Fox News and watch ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, you'll find that Kerry did nothing to disrespect our military. He clarified his remarks. The republicans, who have had nothing to cheer about are latching on to this and spinning it in what has become an all too familair arrogant assault on the intelligence of the american people. Fox News has really run with this ball, presenting  a one sided view, cynically deriding Kerry's clarification. They did not show Kerry's clarification, while ABC and CNN did. ABC and CNN were balanced in their reporting and commentery. After getting the entire story a viewer comes away with two thoughts: Kerry didn't say anything disrespectful about the military,  and that Kerry is an idiot who got what he deserved for trying to take a politcal pot shot. 
That said, we can debate whether education, the prospects for higher education, or economics in general,  play a role in the demographics of our military. I think we all know the answer to that one. 

BondGuy's picture
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My Inner Child wrote:John Kerry is a coward. He was a coward in Viet Nam and he's a coward on our soil.
Again, I'm not a Kerry fan, but please tell us why you believe he is a coward?
 

babbling looney's picture
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He clarified his remarks.
No he didn't.  There was nothing to clarify. He said what he meant and he meant what he said. 

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
There is no way to rearrange these words to make them anything else. He has contempt for the military and no respect for the people who volunteered for service. He trashed the military when he left Vietnam and he is doing it now.  This is the person who you would have as Commander in Chief?   Right now he is frantically trying to spin and cover up his real thoughts.  As busy as a cat in a litter box covering up scat.
And as to your and Kerry's contention that the military consists of a bunch of losers and dolts here are some statistics on academic composition.  Granted this is of the Air Force which has a higher level of college educated members.  
Academic Education -- 49.2 percent of officers have advanced or professional degrees;  39.4 percent have master's degrees, 8.5 percent have professional degrees and 1.3 percent have doctorate degrees. -- 22.8 percent of company grade officers have advanced degrees; 16.5 percent have master's degrees, 5.9 percent have professional degrees and 0.3 percent have doctorate degrees. -- 85.4 percent of field grade officers have advanced degrees; 70.7 percent have master's degrees, 12.1 percent have professional degrees and 2.5 percent have doctorate degrees.-- 99.9 percent of the enlisted force have at least a high school education; 73.3 percent have some semester hours toward a college degree; 16.2 percent have an associate's degree or equivalent semester hours;  4.7 percent have a bachelor's degree; 0.7 percent have a master's degree and .01 percent have a professional or doctorate degree.
Many who join the military (my two nephews for example) have done so not only to serve but also to be able to pay for future college that they could not otherwise afford. 
Stereotyping an entire class of people as dumb, redneck hicks, religious nuts and other such things is a standard tactic of the liberal leftist elites of which John Kerry is the poster boy.

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Chris Matthews of MSNBC's Hardball tried to say that Kerry's quote was taken out of context and when you listened to the whole speech you would understand it was a shot a Bush.  Garbage.  Listen to crowd reaction to his "joke" (deafening silence).  Even the supporters in the audience who heard the entire speech understood that he was referring to the military as a career of last resort. 
Even if you believe Kerry's "clarification", the fact is that what he said came out as an insult and he should apologize.  That's the right thing to do.  He's trying to copy Bill Clinton by fighting back against the right wing conspiracy but as usual is so out of touch with real people that he can't pull it off.  

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babbling looney wrote:
He clarified his remarks.
No he didn't.  There was nothing to clarify. He said what he meant and he meant what he said. 

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
There is no way to rearrange these words to make them anything else. He has contempt for the military and no respect for the people who volunteered for service. He trashed the military when he left Vietnam and he is doing it now.  This is the person who you would have as Commander in Chief?   Right now he is frantically trying to spin and cover up his real thoughts.  As busy as a cat in a litter box covering up scat.
And as to your and Kerry's contention that the military consists of a bunch of losers and dolts here are some statistics on academic composition.  Granted this is of the Air Force which has a higher level of college educated members.  
Academic Education -- 49.2 percent of officers have advanced or professional degrees;  39.4 percent have master's degrees, 8.5 percent have professional degrees and 1.3 percent have doctorate degrees. -- 22.8 percent of company grade officers have advanced degrees; 16.5 percent have master's degrees, 5.9 percent have professional degrees and 0.3 percent have doctorate degrees. -- 85.4 percent of field grade officers have advanced degrees; 70.7 percent have master's degrees, 12.1 percent have professional degrees and 2.5 percent have doctorate degrees.-- 99.9 percent of the enlisted force have at least a high school education; 73.3 percent have some semester hours toward a college degree; 16.2 percent have an associate's degree or equivalent semester hours;  4.7 percent have a bachelor's degree; 0.7 percent have a master's degree and .01 percent have a professional or doctorate degree.
Many who join the military (my two nephews for example) have done so not only to serve but also to be able to pay for future college that they could not otherwise afford. 
Stereotyping an entire class of people as dumb, redneck hicks, religious nuts and other such things is a standard tactic of the liberal leftist elites of which John Kerry is the poster boy.

Don't like Kerry huh?
Are you talking to me with these remarks? Because if you are, you're attaching things to me that I didn't say.
Did I say that I wanted Kerry as president? No! In fact, the best thing to come out of this mess is that it, in all likelihood, takes Kerry out in 08.  Right now, McCain, or Guillianni would be my first choices for pres in 08. However, McCain is stepping into this controversy, which cheapens him in my view. Regardless of what the spin machine wants, he knows Kerry didn't dispararge anyone. Looks like Hillary will get the nod from the dems. That'll be a mess even though I don't find her objectionable. Then there's Obama. Hmm...
Did I say that I consider members of the military losers and dolts? No I didn't say that. I didn't even imply that. I certainly don't believe that. So, I have to ask, where did you get that? Of course I am assuming you are talking to me since I'm the only one on the thread who has offered a counter view of the topic.
My oldest son blew off Villanova to join the Marines. Him, I do consider an idiot. I love him just the same. And obviously, he's not stupid. As it turned out the Marines rejected him for a medical condition he didn't have. Someone, no doubt with an advanced degree, screwed up. We went through a process that took six months to try to clear the error. We found out that, at least within the recruiting command chain, they don't admit to mistakes. As disappointed as my son was, no one was more pissed off about it than the local recruiter, a sargeant, who said the problem was systemic within his chain of command. Whatever that means?  My son went on with his life only to have the Marines call him back about a year later with a revelation that a mistake had been made and he was good to go. Having had a front row seat to the recruiting fiasco, the recruiter's reaction to it, a valuable lesson, he told them to go eff themselves. A smart move on his part because of the direction his life has taken.
As a side note to that, we could have side stepped the entire issue if I'd enlisted the help of a friend of mine, who just happened to be the top doctor in the navy. One phone call and he was in. We decided against that route, not knowing what effect it might have on my son when he got to basic training.  Noone likes people who pull strings, least of all, drill sargeants. When talking to my friend, I never mentioned the marines.
My own take is that the military is an excellent option that all HS and college grads should consider. That the local Marine recruiting process was in such disarray, doesn't impact that view. Yet, my belief is that most, not all, recruits are still joining for economic reasons. That is, they have poor job and/or educational prospects at home, so they join to get the leg up that the military offers. In this way, there is a demographic tilt within the military towards the economically disadvantaged.
Let's face it, there aren't too many Pat Tillmans quiting high paying jobs or dropping out of top schools to join the fight. The education and training benefits were front and center in the Marines pitch to my son. We told them that was a non issue, the kid's getting a bought and paid for education regardless, next slide. However, to a person without the means to pay for an education, that would be a powerful incentive. As you said your own nehews are using their military service as a way to pay for college.
Within my school district, over 90% of the HS graduates go on to college. We live in an upper middle class suburb. You can count on one hand the number of kids going directly from HS into the military in our district. The recruiters, themselves, told us our area, our town and the surrouding towns were one of the toughest recruiting assignments in the country because of the opportunities these kids have. Different demographics would produce  different results. You can call that leftist, elitist, or you can call it what it is, reality.
Point me to the URL that shows the educational level of our military.
 
 
 

babbling looney's picture
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I've hated Kerry since Vietnam. and the damage that he did to the returning soldiers at that time and the lingering damage in the stereotype of the psycho baby killer Vietnam vet that he helped to create. I despise his elitist snobbish attitude.
Point me to the URL that shows the educational level of our military.
http://www.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?storyID=123027385
As I noted this is for the Air Force which is likely to have a higher percentage of college graduates.  I am quite sure that the other branches probably have more enlistees from societal areas that join for the economic benefits. Nevertheless this is NOT like it was when Clinton was dodging the draft, where if you didn't go to college you WERE likely to be stuck in Vietnam.  Everyone is a volunteer for current service. Kerry and the rest of the liberal aging hippies are stuck in a time warp.  I don't know about you but I want people to govern who are forward looking instead of being high centered on their flaming youth.
McCain will never be the nominee for President. Most Republicans while they have great admiration for him as a man and as a veteran who suffered terribly view him as a turncoat to the party.  I wouldn't vote for him just because the McCain/Feingold assault on our first amendment rights.  Giuliani would be a good choice because he is pretty much a moderate socially and tough on crime and the terrorist.  And contrary to the Democrats/Kos crowd's idea, most Republicans are social moderates.  Rudy/Condi would be my pick.
Hillary would energize the Republican base. She would be a terrible pick for the Democrats.  Obama, whatever. Lightweight.
Regardless of what the spin machine wants, he knows Kerry didn't dispararge anyone
Yes he did.  You can deny and spin this all you want. He said what he said, and it was insulting to the people in the military and to all prior military personnel. It reveals his mindset and the way that his party looks on the people of America as substandard and less than they.  Very similar attitude to our resident troll Put Trader/Devil's Advocate and all of his persona.

AirForce's picture
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Anyone who says Kerry did not spit in the face of 10,000,000 who have served has never served. Add in the families who love these military members and you has 30,000,000 pissed off Americans!

There is no way to break down his comment.

Everything about the comment is BS.
We are a force of volunteers.
We constantly focus on mandatory and non-mandatory education. The Air University provides degrees from Associates to Masters. It is just about required that one has a degree to be an officer or top three ranks as an enlisted member.

Bondguy, since 9/11 the middle class has stepped up to the plate and entered the military. This was verified by a PEW study last year. In the end it's funny that the military is run by civilians.

Personal response to John Kerrys comment:
“You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

When one leaves high school it is hopeful they have a positive opinion of our country in general.

Option one: At age 18 young adult can chose to serve in the Armed Forces and become a man or woman, while obtaining OJT (on the job training) and an education through military (Air Force Community College) & civilian schools. At age 25 military member has traveled to different states and potentially over seas, while obtaining respect from friends, family and others. This individule has been in leadership positions training and leading other military members. Individule has opportunity to attend distance or on-site educational programs with most tuition and fees paid for by government. At age 30 military member is a non-commissioned officer and only 8 years away from retirement. This leader now a mentor for other military members, while providing guidance and senior level management for accomplishment of mission. When the veteran hits 40 they have veteran preferance for a federal position and most companies want that military integrity, disipline and leadership! Some of these military members go on to fill advanced positions within government, military contractors, politics and other organizations. The benefits that an individule obtains with an honorable discharge can include health, tuition, grocery (40%+ discounts), travel and a life long brother/sister hood with 10,000,000 veterans. We stick together and support one another during a time of need.

Second option: Enter college at the age of 18 and upon completion have 100k in student loans with minimal OJT experience. During the students educational process they obtain limited OJT experience and obtaining real world hands on experience in areas of culture, society and life outside their hometown or spring break. During college many students are tempted to join Moveon.org or some other peace organization to justify world peace or less military. Another option to avoid tuition and fee's is that mommy or daddy cover costs. At age 24 individule moves forward with 30,000 career. At age 30 individule is 38/42 years away from collecting Social Security or 30+ years from pension. At 40 individule is sick and tired of career path, but locked in awaiting 20+ years till retirement...

This is not to say one path is better then the other, but just to show the potential paths...
Of course in college one could join teams or organizations and become a leader. In the military this is mandatory and part of a military members developtment. Military member also has the option at the end of contract to leave active duty and join the reserves. At 20 years individule has some benefits, but full pension and medical benefits start at age 60. In the end it is a large commitment to enlist with the constant positibility of going to war, but it is tough to question which path is smarter?

Finally does the general public have a 99.7% completion of High School.

Now if the child watches CNN and listen to parents who go out of their way to slam the president and US then they would be negative. I mean after all 99% of the world wants to come here, but the it is obvious to me many Americans are just spoiled!

Comrade Kerry, disguised Republican, leads republicans to victory

BrokerRecruit's picture
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That was one person's feedback I was looking forward to hearing on this topic.

troll's picture
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BondGuy wrote:
You're really buying into this? Dobe, you're smarter than this.
If you turn off Fox News and watch ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, you'll find that Kerry did nothing to disrespect our military. He clarified his remarks.
 
No, Bondguy, he didn’t. Instead of simply saying he’d misspoken and meant no disrespect, and apologizing, Lurch can out swinging at his hastily called press conference and whined about his words being twisted and how he wasn’t going to take it. The take away line was “I apologize to no one”.
<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 
 This C- student who likes to pretend to be something more as he attacks the intellect of another C- student has got to be the most tone-deaf, self-indulgent fool to ever marry (twice) into money. Now he's radioactive and no Democrat wants to bee seen with him. Hilary is beside herself with joy.
 
BTW, Kerry does have a pattern of saying stupid things about our military. He did it in the early 1970s before the Senate Foreign Relations committee, he did it just months ago when he talked about US troops “terrorizing” Iraqis.
 

troll's picture
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BondGuy wrote:
My Inner Child wrote:John Kerry is a coward. He was a coward in Viet Nam and he's a coward on our soil.
Again, I'm not a Kerry fan, but please tell us why you believe he is a coward?
 

 
I wouldn't use that word (after all, he did volunteer for active duty) but some of his  fellow officers who were with him during his brief visit (4 months, 1/3 the normal tour) to Vietnam have.

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Whether or not the guy meant it in a more positive light or it was taken out of context, the simple fact is that he pissed off tons of people - both military and non-military - and his comments cheapen what they sacrifice their lives for in many instances.  What is more ridiculous is the fact that he tries to explain and justify, vs. simply saying "I didn't mean it in that way and I apologize if I offended anyone". 
 

Indyone's picture
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babbling looney wrote:He clarified his remarks.
No he didn't.  There was nothing to clarify. He said what he meant and he meant what he said. 

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
There is no way to rearrange these words to make them anything else. He has contempt for the military and no respect for the people who volunteered for service. He trashed the military when he left Vietnam and he is doing it now.  This is the person who you would have as Commander in Chief?   Right now he is frantically trying to spin and cover up his real thoughts.  As busy as a cat in a litter box covering up scat.
TJ, I love ya, man, but I'm with Babs here.  I have no doubt that Kerry meant what he said and said what he meant.  This is far from the first time he's stuck his foot in his mouth ("I was for the war before I voted against it", or some such nonsense), and it's not likely to be the last.  The missteps of the current presidency aside, if I had it to do all over, I would vote for W again.  When I considered Kerry as a candidate, I really was left with no choice and I still feel that way.  If Kerry were a smart man, he'd disappear from the political landscape for awhile because he's doing about as much damage to the Dems as Hastert and Foley did to the Repubs.  A smart man knows when it's time to shut up and he obviously hasn't figured that out yet.  You are spot on that he's eliminated himself from the 2008 race.
I consider myself a "purple" but I don't have any use for idiots Like John Kerry.

troll's picture
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BondGuy wrote:[ Yet, my belief is that most, not all, recruits are still joining for economic reasons. That is, they have poor job and/or educational prospects at home, so they join to get the leg up that the military offers. In this way, there is a demographic tilt within the military towards the economically disadvantaged.
 
You're wrong.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.c fm
 Indeed, in many criteria, each year shows advancement, not decline, in measurable qualities of new enlistees. For example, it is commonly claimed that the military relies on recruits from poorer neighborhoods because the wealthy will not risk death in war. This claim has been advanced without any rigorous evidence. Our review of Pen­tagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005.
 
 

troll's picture
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Someone asked about education levels...
For enlisted members;
http://www.dod.mil/prhome/docs/recqual05x.pdf
For officers;
Given that most officers are required to possess at least a baccalaureate college degree upon or soon after commissioning and that colleges and universities are among the Services’ main commissioning sources (i.e., Service academies and ROTC), the academic standing of officers is not surprising. The fact that 87 percent of active duty officer accessions and 95 percent of the officer corps (both excluding those with unknown education credentials) were degree holders (approximately 17 and 38 percent advanced degrees) is in keeping with policy and the professional status and expectations of officers. Likewise, 81 percent of Reserve Component officer accessions and 91 percent of the total Reserve Component officer corps held at least a bachelor’s degree, with 23 and 34 percent possessing advanced degrees, respectively.
 
 

troll's picture
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Finally, here's Kerry's "clarification";
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rE2QveEZdw8&mode=related& search=
 
Don't bother looking for a "I misspoke, I apologize"....
 

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Question for all of you:
If you posted regarding this topic, would you please share YOUR personal military experience?  I would be interested in your feedback...  Call it curiousity more than anything else.  Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...
To doberman, NOFX, badmove, BrokerRecruit, Starka, My Inner Child, BondGuy, MikeButler22, BabblingLooney, Vagabond, and AirForce...  My thanks in advance...

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StarsAndStripes wrote:
Question for all of you:
If you posted regarding this topic, would you please share YOUR personal military experience?  I would be interested in your feedback...  Call it curiousity more than anything else.  Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...
To doberman, NOFX, badmove, BrokerRecruit, Starka, My Inner Child, BondGuy, MikeButler22, BabblingLooney, Vagabond, and AirForce...  My thanks in advance...

 
Army. Now, let's hear yours. Remember, don't fib, I have a DD214 and can see right through you 

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I don't have any military service. I am a woman and during the Vietnam era, I was in college, however my fiance at the time was killed in Vietnam. I had many friends who were drafted and some who willingly joined the armed forces.
I have had two Uncles who were career Air Force. Both retired now for several years. One was a Veterinarian and the other a pilot (C-5 Galaxie...gigantic!!!) both were highly educated and spent their entire careers in the Air Force.  Recently my two nephews joined the military. They are both discharged now having done 2 tours each. One was an Army Ranger (Afghanistan first and then Iraq) the other joined the Marines and did two tours in Iraq.  They were both in college when they joined. The Marine has gone back to college and the other nephew is not doing very well just now.
Attitudes like Kerry's and from the so called liberal left that people who are in the military are somehow losers and dimwits make me furious. In addition the lies and propaganda spread by Kerry in particular, that the military was turning out psychopathic baby killing torturing monsters, ruined many returning Vietnam Vets ability to re-integrate into society. A lot of employers bought into this myth and made it difficult to get a job. The emotional scars of being spit on by your own hurt and made some of the returning servicemen buy into the stereotype too.
This snobbery and inability to understand that some people can actually be educated AND be patriotic is evidence of their complete disassociation with the majority of Americans.  This isn't 1968 anymore and Iraq is not Vietnam. Unfortunately, Kerry is still living in the past.

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I'm in the Navy Seals and the Special Forces.
Sometimes I moonlight as a Force Recon agent, when I'm bored.
Oh, did I mention that I'm also a Ninja in the Foot Clan too?
 

StarsAndStripes's picture
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Army, Military Police 31B, Officer...  Primary Mission: Force Protection
Air Assault Qualified

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babbling looney wrote:
I don't have any military service. I am a woman and during the Vietnam era, I was in college, however my fiance at the time was killed in Vietnam. I had many friends who were drafted and some who willingly joined the armed forces.
I have had two Uncles who were career Air Force. Both retired now for several years. One was a Veterinarian and the other a pilot (C-5 Galaxie...gigantic!!!) both were highly educated and spent their entire careers in the Air Force.  Recently my two nephews joined the military. They are both discharged now having done 2 tours each. One was an Army Ranger (Afghanistan first and then Iraq) the other joined the Marines and did two tours in Iraq.  They were both in college when they joined. The Marine has gone back to college and the other nephew is not doing very well just now.
Attitudes like Kerry's and from the so called liberal left that people who are in the military are somehow losers and dimwits make me furious. In addition the lies and propaganda spread by Kerry in particular, that the military was turning out psychopathic baby killing torturing monsters, ruined many returning Vietnam Vets ability to re-integrate into society. A lot of employers bought into this myth and made it difficult to get a job. The emotional scars of being spit on by your own hurt and made some of the returning servicemen buy into the stereotype too.
This snobbery and inability to understand that some people can actually be educated AND be patriotic is evidence of their complete disassociation with the majority of Americans.  This isn't 1968 anymore and Iraq is not Vietnam. Unfortunately, Kerry is still living in the past.

Ms. Looney, may I ask why you chose not to serve?

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dude wrote:
I'm in the Navy Seals and the Special Forces.
Sometimes I moonlight as a Force Recon agent, when I'm bored.
Oh, did I mention that I'm also a Ninja in the Foot Clan too?
 

This is funny how?

Starka's picture
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Cmdr, USN, Ret. Submarine Fleet and ONI.

dude's picture
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babbling looney wrote:
  This isn't 1968 anymore and Iraq is not Vietnam.

I think more appropriate would be: Iraq is not Afghanistan.  Saddam is not Osama.  AK 47's, scuds and qurans are not weapons of mass destruction.  If we had devoted 1/4 of the resources that the Iraq war has gobbled up to catching Osama and dismantling the Al Queda networks our world might be a safer place than it is today. 
Iraq is a poorly thought out and poorly executed attempt at bludgeoning the middle east into parity with the rest of the world.  Although the ideal is admirable and would be great for the world in the long run...it's the logistics of the whole thing that makes the idea laughable.  Just look at the results...
Never the less, John Kerry is a doof....at least as much as Bush is anyway.

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StarsAndStripes wrote:dude wrote:
I'm in the Navy Seals and the Special Forces.
Sometimes I moonlight as a Force Recon agent, when I'm bored.
Oh, did I mention that I'm also a Ninja in the Foot Clan too?

This is funny how?

Because you have X-ray vision my man.
 

dude's picture
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I feel so naked under your gaze.  You're making me blush.

troll's picture
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I love these guys....
 

 

dude's picture
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Nice!

dude's picture
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StarsAndStripes wrote:
  Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...

I believe you...really...I like to wear camo.

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StarsAndStripes wrote:
Army, Military Police 31B, Officer...  Primary Mission: Force Protection
Air Assault Qualified

 
Uh, a commissioned officer in the MPs is a 31A. 31B is an enlisted MOS, isn't it? Either way, thatnks for your service.

Starka's picture
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Mike, now THAT'S funny!
 

BondGuy's picture
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babbling looney wrote:
I've hated Kerry since Vietnam. and the damage that he did to the returning soldiers at that time and the lingering damage in the stereotype of the psycho baby killer Vietnam vet that he helped to create. I despise his elitist snobbish attitude.
Point me to the URL that shows the educational level of our military.
http://www.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?storyID=123027385
As I noted this is for the Air Force which is likely to have a higher percentage of college graduates.  I am quite sure that the other branches probably have more enlistees from societal areas that join for the economic benefits. Nevertheless this is NOT like it was when Clinton was dodging the draft, where if you didn't go to college you WERE likely to be stuck in Vietnam.  Everyone is a volunteer for current service. Kerry and the rest of the liberal aging hippies are stuck in a time warp.  I don't know about you but I want people to govern who are forward looking instead of being high centered on their flaming youth.
McCain will never be the nominee for President. Most Republicans while they have great admiration for him as a man and as a veteran who suffered terribly view him as a turncoat to the party.  I wouldn't vote for him just because the McCain/Feingold assault on our first amendment rights.  Giuliani would be a good choice because he is pretty much a moderate socially and tough on crime and the terrorist.  And contrary to the Democrats/Kos crowd's idea, most Republicans are social moderates.  Rudy/Condi would be my pick.
Hillary would energize the Republican base. She would be a terrible pick for the Democrats.  Obama, whatever. Lightweight.
Regardless of what the spin machine wants, he knows Kerry didn't dispararge anyone
Yes he did.  You can deny and spin this all you want. He said what he said, and it was insulting to the people in the military and to all prior military personnel. It reveals his mindset and the way that his party looks on the people of America as substandard and less than they.  Very similar attitude to our resident troll Put Trader/Devil's Advocate and all of his persona.

Babs,
I wanted to make sure you weren't getting your information from Bob Perry or The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Who, ironically turned out to be liars.
If we turn the clock back 35 years, while not liking what Kerry was doing, it's at least understandable. Within the context of the times attacking the vets was just another antiwar strategy. I too thought it was wrong. Personally, I won't go see a Jane Fonda movie. Yet, calling all vets baby killers was a way to drum up support for peace. In the times, as you know, not only was it accepted, it was widely supported.  Kerry found his political footing in this movement. The entire country was being torn apart by the war. For a young person with political aspirations the anti war movement was almost too good to be true. It was a no brainer "How to get elected white paper." Just join the movement. He did, in the most contrived way, by first serving in the military and by fighting in the war. Even though, he admits, when he joined he had no intention of getting in harm's way. And even by cynically saying he served as part of a plan isn't quite right, because back then, there were only so many ways out of the war. How was he to know that 20 to 35 years later, that draft dodgers would be in control? Now, 35 years later we've lost the emotional context of that era, but the words remain as part of the official record. Words that are brought out and displayed at every RNC meeting in the country.
The Vets have every right to be pissed off this guy, but don't ever buy into the spin. Not taking kerry at his word that his comments were directed at Bush is implausable. Regardless of what you think of him, kerry is not a stupid man. Only a complete imbecile would make a comment like that a week before an election. Take the cheap shot if you wish, Kerry's not an imbecile. As for an apology, for what? He misspoke, he owes noone an apology.
 
About Clinton the draft dodger- You've got to remember the times. Early on, mid 60s males were running to the fight. Nam was their    WW II. By 68 momentum had shifted. Everyone was trying to get out of the draft. College deferments were the order of the day. The 68 democratic convention and the 70 shootings at Kent State were hallmarks of the times.
 Clinton ran to Oxford, used politcal influence to avoid draft, acceptable as measured in context by the times. Most families were looking for ways to get their sons out of the draft. The ending of graduate deferments went to the issue of how desperate the government was to fill its quota.
Bush ran and hid in the National Guard, used political influence to avoid duty. I use the term hid as it was used by us all at that time. Hiding in the National Guard was an acceptable, if last ditch effort, to avoid Vietnam. This is why I harbor no ill will for Bush having done so. We were all headed there if need be.
Cheney- racked up what was it, eleven deferments? His comment when asked why he chose not to serve was "I had better things to do" is truly insulting to troops everywhere and in every time. Yet, within the context of the times, acceptable.
Rumsfeld-Served in the navy as a carrier pilot. He came of age between Korea and Vietnam. Which is a shame because, no doubt he would have landed an F4 in North Vietnam and micromanaged them into surrendering, kicking their asses the whole time. I don't like what Rummy's done with Iraq, but on whole, he's my kind of guy.
So when you call Clinton a draft dodger, it's not an insult. He shares that distinction with many others, including our President and Vice President. They are all products of the times. Within the context of that time, none is wrong for their choice. All are wrong for trying to use it as a smear.
Finally, there's Rice. Rice is one of the major architects of our new "pre-emptive war" foreign policy. She believes that the world will be a safer place if it's all one big happy democracy. And that, while we stand unchallenged as the world's only super power, now is the time to strike. Now, when no military can challenge us. She's right, it would be safer. Yet, the world doesn't want to be a big happy democracy. Sovereign nations and people aren't cozying up to the idea of do it our way or else. Go figure! So, I gotta disagree on Rice.
 
 
 
 
 

babbling looney's picture
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Ms. Looney, may I ask why you chose not to serve?
Actually, I did consider the Air Force. They tried to recruit me as a Navigator or Pilot based on some tests that I had taken before graduating high school (good spacial and 3d recognition skills I think), but when they found out that I was a 'girl' the offer was changed to other non-combat occupations. I guess they assumed I was a guy because of my scores.
In the 60's it was rare for women to serve in the military: unlike now where it is very common. In the meantime, my family needed me to be at home to help take care of a disabled family member.

dude's picture
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I generally agree that John Kerry is an idiot.
I believe though that the context of his statement WAS concerning the state of affairs our country is in and was intended as a criticism of the opportunities our country currently affords those of lower academic achievement.  Kinda like: "Look what is available to you under our current administration; it sucks". 
I think he is seriously dumb if he thought that his 'joke' would achieve it's intended result.  Very very easy to confuse the message he was trying to convey

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BondGuy wrote:
I wanted to make sure you weren't getting your information from Bob Perry or The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Who, ironically turned out to be liars.
Says who? I wasn't interested in them exploring the fog of war when it came to the minute details of the circumstances of his decorations. I doubt many could survive that sort of scrutiny.
But their larger point, the fact that he told tall tails about his “Christmas in Cambodia”, that his fellow officers didn’t think much of him, that his tour of duty was 1/3 the standard length than he slurred them upon his return in order to spark a political career. Those were important truths, and probably explains why something along the lines of 70% of active duty service members voted against him.
BondGuy wrote:If we turn the clock back 35 years, while not liking what Kerry was doing, it's at least understandable. Within the context of the times attacking the vets was just another antiwar strategy.
Sorry, there's no "understanding" the smear of US troops in Vietnam Kerry conducted, and there's no forgetting what a craven opportunist the guy is. My father served two tours, we all take that sort of thing to heart.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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I'm not in the military, nor have I been.  That said, my association is as follows:
My father was in the Navy as a Radioman, 3rd class.  Never saw any action and served four years.
My brother-in-law is currently in the Marines.  He is getting two weeks of leave Nov. 14-28 so that he can come home and get married before he goes off to Asia (first Japan for three months, followed by Korea). 
My close friend was in the Army and served in Bosnia while much of that conflict was taking place.  Saw some action, but made it home safely.
Finally, my grandfather (mother's side) was in WWII.  He served in Europe and was part of the later wave that took Normandy.  He spent 12 years in the Army and came away with a Purple Heart and Bronze Star.
I have utmost respect for those that served, both in wartimes and non-wartimes.  The fact that someone is selfless enough to put their life on the line day-in, day-out so that I can criticize my gonvernment, along with many of the other freedoms we have that those in other countries could be killed for, is what is great about this country and I take my hat off to those that serve for me. 

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dude wrote:
I generally agree that John Kerry is an idiot.
I don't understand why Kerry, a sub-par Yale student (so much so that he was rejected by Harvard, where Bush got his MBA), spends so much time making jokes about the intellect of someone who earned an almost identical GPA. I says so much about this smug, money-marrying elitist snob.

troll's picture
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tails = tales

dude's picture
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Joined: 2005-11-15

BondGuy wrote:
Babs,
I wanted to make sure you weren't getting your information from Bob Perry or The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Who, ironically turned out to be liars.
If we turn the clock back 35 years, while not liking what Kerry was doing, it's at least understandable. Within the context of the times attacking the vets was just another antiwar strategy. I too thought it was wrong. Personally, I won't go see a Jane Fonda movie. Yet, calling all vets baby killers was a way to drum up support for peace. In the times, as you know, not only was it accepted, it was widely supported.  Kerry found his political footing in this movement. The entire country was being torn apart by the war. For a young person with political aspirations the anti war movement was almost too good to be true. It was a no brainer "How to get elected white paper." Just join the movement. He did, in the most contrived way, by first serving in the military and by fighting in the war. Even though, he admits, when he joined he had no intention of getting in harm's way. And even by cynically saying he served as part of a plan isn't quite right, because back then, there were only so many ways out of the war. How was he to know that 20 to 35 years later, that draft dodgers would be in control? Now, 35 years later we've lost the emotional context of that era, but the words remain as part of the official record. Words that are brought out and displayed at every RNC meeting in the country.
The Vets have every right to be pissed off this guy, but don't ever buy into the spin. Not taking kerry at his word that his comments were directed at Bush is implausable. Regardless of what you think of him, kerry is not a stupid man. Only a complete imbecile would make a comment like that a week before an election. Take the cheap shot if you wish, Kerry's not an imbecile. As for an apology, for what? He misspoke, he owes noone an apology.
 
About Clinton the draft dodger- You've got to remember the times. Early on, mid 60s males were running to the fight. Nam was their    WW II. By 68 momentum had shifted. Everyone was trying to get out of the draft. College deferments were the order of the day. The 68 democratic convention and the 70 shootings at Kent State were hallmarks of the times.
 Clinton ran to Oxford, used politcal influence to avoid draft, acceptable as measured in context by the times. Most families were looking for ways to get their sons out of the draft. The ending of graduate deferments went to the issue of how desperate the government was to fill its quota.
Bush ran and hid in the National Guard, used political influence to avoid duty. I use the term hid as it was used by us all at that time. Hiding in the National Guard was an acceptable, if last ditch effort, to avoid Vietnam. This is why I harbor no ill will for Bush having done so. We were all headed there if need be.
Cheney- racked up what was it, eleven deferments? His comment when asked why he chose not to serve was "I had better things to do" is truly insulting to troops everywhere and in every time. Yet, within the context of the times, acceptable.
Rumsfeld-Served in the navy as a carrier pilot. He came of age between Korea and Vietnam. Which is a shame because, no doubt he would have landed an F4 in North Vietnam and micromanaged them into surrendering, kicking their asses the whole time. I don't like what Rummy's done with Iraq, but on whole, he's my kind of guy.
So when you call Clinton a draft dodger, it's not an insult. He shares that distinction with many others, including our President and Vice President. They are all products of the times. Within the context of that time, none is wrong for their choice. All are wrong for trying to use it as a smear.
Finally, there's Rice. Rice is one of the major architects of our new "pre-emptive war" foreign policy. She believes that the world will be a safer place if it's all one big happy democracy. And that, while we stand unchallenged as the world's only super power, now is the time to strike. Now, when no military can challenge us. She's right, it would be safer. Yet, the world doesn't want to be a big happy democracy. Sovereign nations and people aren't cozying up to the idea of do it our way or else. Go figure! So, I gotta disagree on Rice.

Man, BondGuy...you are a voice of balanced reason, you actually make sense.  I was beginning to think that folks around here only responded after referencing The Republican Codex's chapter on acceptable opinions.
When are people going to realize that real life doesn't fit into a polarized black and white framework?  There are innumerable ways to look at and solve problems...not just through a Liberal/Conservative lenz.

BondGuy's picture
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StarsAndStripes wrote:
Question for all of you:
If you posted regarding this topic, would you please share YOUR personal military experience?  I would be interested in your feedback...  Call it curiousity more than anything else.  Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...
To doberman, NOFX, badmove, BrokerRecruit, Starka, My Inner Child, BondGuy, MikeButler22, BabblingLooney, Vagabond, and AirForce...  My thanks in advance...

What, are you kidding? Does military service give you some moral advantage over those of us who didn't serve? And if so, where does that leave Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz and the rest of the chickenhawks? OK with you if they speak to the issue?    
 

My Inner Child's picture
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Joined: 2006-10-08

StarsAndStripes wrote:
Question for all of you:
If you posted regarding this topic, would you please share YOUR personal military experience?  I would be interested in your feedback...  Call it curiousity more than anything else.  Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...
To doberman, NOFX, badmove, BrokerRecruit, Starka, My Inner Child, BondGuy, MikeButler22, BabblingLooney, Vagabond, and AirForce...  My thanks in advance...

We don't have to have any military experience to comment, nor do we have to have been a senator to comment. Your post makes me wonder if Jon Carry wasn't right, afterall.

troll's picture
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dude wrote:Man, BondGuy...you are a voice of balanced reason, you actually make sense.
It's human nature to think someone who agrees with you is the "voice of reason", dude...
dude wrote: I was beginning to think that folks around here only responded after referencing The Republican Codex's chapter on acceptable opinions.
It's a feature of our current political culture that some people seem to think that those who don't agree with them aren't reaching their conclusions based on their own review of the facts, they’re simply programmed and easily led…..

dude's picture
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MikeB said:
Sorry, there's no "understanding" the smear of US troops in Vietnam Kerry conducted, and there's no forgetting what a craven opportunist the guy is. My father served two tours, we all take that sort of thing to heart.
Reply:
So do you really believe the Bush Administrations BS about why Iraq?  To me it smells of opportunistic hubris as much as Kerry's behavior, if not more.
 

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