Any Way You Cut It, Kerry's A Jerk!
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[quote=BondGuy][ Yet, my belief is that most, not all, recruits are still joining for economic reasons. That is, they have poor job and/or educational prospects at home, so they join to get the leg up that the military offers. In this way, there is a demographic tilt within the military towards the economically disadvantaged. [/quote]
You're wrong.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.c fm
Indeed, in many criteria, each year shows advancement, not decline, in measurable qualities of new enlistees. For example, it is commonly claimed that the military relies on recruits from poorer neighborhoods because the wealthy will not risk death in war. This claim has been advanced without any rigorous evidence. Our review of Pentagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005.
Someone asked about education levels...
For enlisted members;
http://www.dod.mil/prhome/docs/recqual05x.pdf
For officers;
Given that most officers are required to possess at least a baccalaureate college degree upon or soon after commissioning and that colleges and universities are among the Services’ main commissioning sources (i.e., Service academies and ROTC), the academic standing of officers is not surprising. The fact that 87 percent of active duty officer accessions and 95 percent of the officer corps (both excluding those with unknown education credentials) were degree holders (approximately 17 and 38 percent advanced degrees) is in keeping with policy and the professional status and expectations of officers. Likewise, 81 percent of Reserve Component officer accessions and 91 percent of the total Reserve Component officer corps held at least a bachelor’s degree, with 23 and 34 percent possessing advanced degrees, respectively.
Finally, here's Kerry's "clarification";
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rE2QveEZdw8&mode=related& search=
Don't bother looking for a "I misspoke, I apologize"....
Question for all of you:
If you posted regarding this topic, would you please share YOUR personal military experience? I would be interested in your feedback... Call it curiousity more than anything else. Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...
To doberman, NOFX, badmove, BrokerRecruit, Starka, My Inner Child, BondGuy, MikeButler22, BabblingLooney, Vagabond, and AirForce... My thanks in advance...
[quote=StarsAndStripes]
Question for all of you:
If you posted regarding this topic, would you please share YOUR personal military experience? I would be interested in your feedback... Call it curiousity more than anything else. Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...
To doberman, NOFX, badmove, BrokerRecruit, Starka, My Inner Child, BondGuy, MikeButler22, BabblingLooney, Vagabond, and AirForce... My thanks in advance...
[/quote]
Army. Now, let's hear yours. Remember, don't fib, I have a DD214 and can see right through you
I don't have any military service. I am a woman and during the Vietnam era, I was in college, however my fiance at the time was killed in Vietnam. I had many friends who were drafted and some who willingly joined the armed forces.
I have had two Uncles who were career Air Force. Both retired now for several years. One was a Veterinarian and the other a pilot (C-5 Galaxie...gigantic!!!) both were highly educated and spent their entire careers in the Air Force. Recently my two nephews joined the military. They are both discharged now having done 2 tours each. One was an Army Ranger (Afghanistan first and then Iraq) the other joined the Marines and did two tours in Iraq. They were both in college when they joined. The Marine has gone back to college and the other nephew is not doing very well just now.
Attitudes like Kerry's and from the so called liberal left that people who are in the military are somehow losers and dimwits make me furious. In addition the lies and propaganda spread by Kerry in particular, that the military was turning out psychopathic baby killing torturing monsters, ruined many returning Vietnam Vets ability to re-integrate into society. A lot of employers bought into this myth and made it difficult to get a job. The emotional scars of being spit on by your own hurt and made some of the returning servicemen buy into the stereotype too.
This snobbery and inability to understand that some people can actually be educated AND be patriotic is evidence of their complete disassociation with the majority of Americans. This isn't 1968 anymore and Iraq is not Vietnam. Unfortunately, Kerry is still living in the past.
I'm in the Navy Seals and the Special Forces.
Sometimes I moonlight as a Force Recon agent, when I'm bored.
Oh, did I mention that I'm also a Ninja in the Foot Clan too?
Army, Military Police 31B, Officer... Primary Mission: Force Protection
Air Assault Qualified
[quote=babbling looney]
I don't have any military service. I am a woman and during the Vietnam era, I was in college, however my fiance at the time was killed in Vietnam. I had many friends who were drafted and some who willingly joined the armed forces.
I have had two Uncles who were career Air Force. Both retired now for several years. One was a Veterinarian and the other a pilot (C-5 Galaxie...gigantic!!!) both were highly educated and spent their entire careers in the Air Force. Recently my two nephews joined the military. They are both discharged now having done 2 tours each. One was an Army Ranger (Afghanistan first and then Iraq) the other joined the Marines and did two tours in Iraq. They were both in college when they joined. The Marine has gone back to college and the other nephew is not doing very well just now.
Attitudes like Kerry's and from the so called liberal left that people who are in the military are somehow losers and dimwits make me furious. In addition the lies and propaganda spread by Kerry in particular, that the military was turning out psychopathic baby killing torturing monsters, ruined many returning Vietnam Vets ability to re-integrate into society. A lot of employers bought into this myth and made it difficult to get a job. The emotional scars of being spit on by your own hurt and made some of the returning servicemen buy into the stereotype too.
This snobbery and inability to understand that some people can actually be educated AND be patriotic is evidence of their complete disassociation with the majority of Americans. This isn't 1968 anymore and Iraq is not Vietnam. Unfortunately, Kerry is still living in the past.
[/quote]
Ms. Looney, may I ask why you chose not to serve?
[quote=dude]
I'm in the Navy Seals and the Special Forces.
Sometimes I moonlight as a Force Recon agent, when I'm bored.
Oh, did I mention that I'm also a Ninja in the Foot Clan too?
[/quote]
This is funny how?
[quote=babbling looney]
This isn't 1968 anymore and Iraq is not Vietnam.
[/quote]
I think more appropriate would be: Iraq is not Afghanistan. Saddam is not Osama. AK 47's, scuds and qurans are not weapons of mass destruction. If we had devoted 1/4 of the resources that the Iraq war has gobbled up to catching Osama and dismantling the Al Queda networks our world might be a safer place than it is today.
Iraq is a poorly thought out and poorly executed attempt at bludgeoning the middle east into parity with the rest of the world. Although the ideal is admirable and would be great for the world in the long run...it's the logistics of the whole thing that makes the idea laughable. Just look at the results...
Never the less, John Kerry is a doof....at least as much as Bush is anyway.
[quote=StarsAndStripes][quote=dude]
I'm in the Navy Seals and the Special Forces.
Sometimes I moonlight as a Force Recon agent, when I'm bored.
Oh, did I mention that I'm also a Ninja in the Foot Clan too?
[/quote]
This is funny how?
[/quote]
Because you have X-ray vision my man.
[quote=StarsAndStripes]
Remember, please don't fib as I am an active service member and can see right through you...
[/quote]
I believe you...really...I like to wear camo.
[quote=StarsAndStripes]
Army, Military Police 31B, Officer... Primary Mission: Force Protection
Air Assault Qualified
[/quote]
Uh, a commissioned officer in the MPs is a 31A. 31B is an enlisted MOS, isn't it? Either way, thatnks for your service.
[quote=babbling looney]
I've hated Kerry since Vietnam. and the damage that he did to the returning soldiers at that time and the lingering damage in the stereotype of the psycho baby killer Vietnam vet that he helped to create. I despise his elitist snobbish attitude.
Point me to the URL that shows the educational level of our military.
http://www.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?storyID=123027385
As I noted this is for the Air Force which is likely to have a higher percentage of college graduates. I am quite sure that the other branches probably have more enlistees from societal areas that join for the economic benefits. Nevertheless this is NOT like it was when Clinton was dodging the draft, where if you didn't go to college you WERE likely to be stuck in Vietnam. Everyone is a volunteer for current service. Kerry and the rest of the liberal aging hippies are stuck in a time warp. I don't know about you but I want people to govern who are forward looking instead of being high centered on their flaming youth.
McCain will never be the nominee for President. Most Republicans while they have great admiration for him as a man and as a veteran who suffered terribly view him as a turncoat to the party. I wouldn't vote for him just because the McCain/Feingold assault on our first amendment rights. Giuliani would be a good choice because he is pretty much a moderate socially and tough on crime and the terrorist. And contrary to the Democrats/Kos crowd's idea, most Republicans are social moderates. Rudy/Condi would be my pick.
Hillary would energize the Republican base. She would be a terrible pick for the Democrats. Obama, whatever. Lightweight.
Regardless of what the spin machine wants, he knows Kerry didn't dispararge anyone
Yes he did. You can deny and spin this all you want. He said what he said, and it was insulting to the people in the military and to all prior military personnel. It reveals his mindset and the way that his party looks on the people of America as substandard and less than they. Very similar attitude to our resident troll Put Trader/Devil's Advocate and all of his persona.
[/quote]
Babs,
I wanted to make sure you weren't getting your information from Bob Perry or The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Who, ironically turned out to be liars.
If we turn the clock back 35 years, while not liking what Kerry was doing, it's at least understandable. Within the context of the times attacking the vets was just another antiwar strategy. I too thought it was wrong. Personally, I won't go see a Jane Fonda movie. Yet, calling all vets baby killers was a way to drum up support for peace. In the times, as you know, not only was it accepted, it was widely supported. Kerry found his political footing in this movement. The entire country was being torn apart by the war. For a young person with political aspirations the anti war movement was almost too good to be true. It was a no brainer "How to get elected white paper." Just join the movement. He did, in the most contrived way, by first serving in the military and by fighting in the war. Even though, he admits, when he joined he had no intention of getting in harm's way. And even by cynically saying he served as part of a plan isn't quite right, because back then, there were only so many ways out of the war. How was he to know that 20 to 35 years later, that draft dodgers would be in control? Now, 35 years later we've lost the emotional context of that era, but the words remain as part of the official record. Words that are brought out and displayed at every RNC meeting in the country.
The Vets have every right to be pissed off this guy, but don't ever buy into the spin. Not taking kerry at his word that his comments were directed at Bush is implausable. Regardless of what you think of him, kerry is not a stupid man. Only a complete imbecile would make a comment like that a week before an election. Take the cheap shot if you wish, Kerry's not an imbecile. As for an apology, for what? He misspoke, he owes noone an apology.
About Clinton the draft dodger- You've got to remember the times. Early on, mid 60s males were running to the fight. Nam was their WW II. By 68 momentum had shifted. Everyone was trying to get out of the draft. College deferments were the order of the day. The 68 democratic convention and the 70 shootings at Kent State were hallmarks of the times.
Clinton ran to Oxford, used politcal influence to avoid draft, acceptable as measured in context by the times. Most families were looking for ways to get their sons out of the draft. The ending of graduate deferments went to the issue of how desperate the government was to fill its quota.
Bush ran and hid in the National Guard, used political influence to avoid duty. I use the term hid as it was used by us all at that time. Hiding in the National Guard was an acceptable, if last ditch effort, to avoid Vietnam. This is why I harbor no ill will for Bush having done so. We were all headed there if need be.
Cheney- racked up what was it, eleven deferments? His comment when asked why he chose not to serve was "I had better things to do" is truly insulting to troops everywhere and in every time. Yet, within the context of the times, acceptable.
Rumsfeld-Served in the navy as a carrier pilot. He came of age between Korea and Vietnam. Which is a shame because, no doubt he would have landed an F4 in North Vietnam and micromanaged them into surrendering, kicking their asses the whole time. I don't like what Rummy's done with Iraq, but on whole, he's my kind of guy.
So when you call Clinton a draft dodger, it's not an insult. He shares that distinction with many others, including our President and Vice President. They are all products of the times. Within the context of that time, none is wrong for their choice. All are wrong for trying to use it as a smear.
Finally, there's Rice. Rice is one of the major architects of our new "pre-emptive war" foreign policy. She believes that the world will be a safer place if it's all one big happy democracy. And that, while we stand unchallenged as the world's only super power, now is the time to strike. Now, when no military can challenge us. She's right, it would be safer. Yet, the world doesn't want to be a big happy democracy. Sovereign nations and people aren't cozying up to the idea of do it our way or else. Go figure! So, I gotta disagree on Rice.