[quote=BondGuy]

Yes, seriously!

Y'all are jumin' on the anti Obama bandwagon. A bandwagon that is Madison Avenue slick. None of us can understand how blind or naive or uniformed or misunformed the Bogleheads are, but then y'all fall this load of bullshit? Seriously?

 We had a balanced budget and limited government spending under Clinton. We also had a budget surplus. Any Clinton supporters in the group?

We had an energy policy under Carter that reduced our dependance on foreign oil by 50%. Reagan undid it as fast as he could. If we'd kept those policies in place there would have been no Gulf War and no Iraq War. We would be masters of our own economy. How many Carter fans we got here?

Undo health care? Exactly how would that affect you? Is there anyone in this country who doesn't deserve health care?

By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive the bailouts were unnecessary and we shouldn't have done them?

By a show of hands how many of you have been tangibly adversely affected by the current administration?

By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive there has been enough time since the 08 meltdown for recovery to take place?

Yeah, tenth, seriously!

[/quote]

dumbest post in RR message board history.

by a show of hands, which BS govt crap waste agency is a failure?

post office?  chap 11

amtrack  chap 11

fema?   go Aints

FDA   eggs over easy anyone?

IRS?   call em  50% chance your answer is wrong

hud?   funny

dept of education?    our kids are stupid.

tax code?  funny

sec?  in madolfs office for 6 month  

social security?    take my money.  give it to the MF govt to piss away   brilliant

medicare?  black hole of mf waste

goog the owebama pork waste stimulis bulls^%$#.  its online.  start reading that badboy if you want to get very angry.

yep   we need more big MF govt like owebama wants.   it always works so well

as far as the recovery?    if owebama was not there and we used all this pork for supply side. trickle down voodoo economics........we would be rocking again

madison ave?     how stupid

you want to fix healthcare?   free market incentives-duh

lasiks-it works  you know why?   duh  free market incentives

plastic surgery also

add 30 million people to a piece of crap system and it will SAVE a trillion.  that might be the biggest MF lie in the history of politics.

cant wait for that tril in savings

[quote=tenthtee]

A fool and his money are easily parted. That's what you have social services for - the thing I hate are the bailouts and takeovers.

They say it is to maintain liquidity in the system. Everything and anything in the name of liquidity. You can never get around that one.

It is the begining of complexity and the end of the individual. All you can do is attempt to diversify your own stuff over time.

Remember, nature prefers to burn over many different types of natural areas as a way to kill disease and weeds and renew the forest

What we have here is a forest that is never allowed to burn. Out West, that has harbored many funky type of invasive insect species, and the Forest Service ( a U.S. government agency) has been forced to allow nature to take its course and burn down the forests at times.

I don't believe the T Party will be bashful about doing what needs to be done - as the average person's economic IQ goes up, we can begin to sit back and enjoy the fruits. Regulations are not the really interesting or relevant thing right now, in a relative sense. I believe the deregulation started with Clinton. Sheesh, where are all of the conservatives here?

When the markets and greed went to excess, we lost our nerve. Just like immigration, for the love of Pete, why don't we just put everyone to work and start creating some wealth? Untie our hands so we can be good capitalists. I can't take it any more, seriously, I have to flee for a while.

[/quote]

Tenth, what conservatives who use this analogy forget is that nature does its work over the course of decades and centuries.  We're people, not ecologies, and have to work on a different timeline.  I would rather have had the financial intervention we had, even if it rubs my free market sensitivies the wrong way, than to have a repeat of the depression, with 15 lost years and millions of lost lives.  Maybe you don't think that's likely, but I can tell you that I was a corporate treasurer in the fall of 2008 and I saw the credit markets dry up in real time, even before this made the Fall headlines.  We were heading toward a very bad place, very fast.  There were no deals to be had as the entire credit system was in a state of cross-default seizure.  Had Paulson and Bush and the Democratic Congress not stepped in, there is ZERO doubt we would be much worse off today.

So let's park the idealogical crutches in the closet, get over selective amnesia and get real about solving our problems.  As for the Tea Party not being bashful, I agree with that part.  As far as knowing what to do, well, they're the modern day Scarecrow; there's a lot of them in the fields these days, but there's not one with any brains.

To paraphrase Louie from Taxi, "Tea Party, I only wish you were smarter, so you would know how dumb you are."

Nettlesome, you calling something a stupid post is perhaps the highest compliment indeed.  "I only wish YOU were smarter..."

You point to a lot of examples of government incompetence, and there are surely plenty.  But what you ignore is that it has been a Republican president at the head of each of these agencies for 28 of the last 42 years!  That's what you get when you put people in charge of stuff they don't like and don't understand; incompetence.  PJ O'Rourke said it years ago "Republicans campaign on the idea that government can't do anything right, and when they get elected, they prove it."

Now don't get me wrong, I think both Republicans and Democrats are incompetent.  The difference is that Democrats are at least trying to do something positive.  If Republicans would simply run on a platform of smaller, more cost-effective government, with candidates who had a few still firing brain cells, they'd be a viable alternative.  Instead their new slate of candidates looks like the crew from Animal House, without the laughs.  They're going to do all the damage they can before they get expelled.

Does anyone think that this mess is truly fixable without first reforming the two party system?

Honestly, no. There is no way the amount of diversity in this country can be equally represented by two ideologies. Thats why the feds should step down and give the states back the responsibility and authority they so desperately need.

Feds = military policy, monetary policy, foreign policy, interstate/foreign commerce and nothing more...

Lone, well said.

Ok, let's get down to the central bug up the tea party's ass when it comes to money, the bailouts. First, are we all on the same page here with regard to the status of TARP. That is, it's a done deal within the next week or  two, no money can be spent once it ends, and can we agree on the CBO's number as to the total cost to the government of TARP coming in at about 66 billion?

Does anyone here remember what this board was like two years ago this month? I do. I can describe the posts with just two words, fear and panic. Why was there fear and panic among some here?  Among most here? Because we had ring side seats. We saw the hole in the hull. We saw the water gushing in, unstopable and the pumps unable to keep up. Unlike those on decks far above us we knew what it meant. We knew the ship was going to sink. And, we knew it was going to do so very quickly. While there are many comparisions of the imminent capsize to the Great Depression, the truth is, what we witnessed was unprecedented. This was more than a compression of the economy or a collapse of one financial sector within that economy. This was the collapse of the entire monetary system. Not only was the economy in danger, the very delivery system that makes having an economy possible was in mortal danger.  

Fear? youbetcha! I told my wife, brothers and sister, as well as my kids to pull as much cash out of the banks as they could. The ATMs were working today, But tomorrow? WE knew the ship was doomed unless saved by extraordinary measures. Quite frankly, exactly two years ago today that rescue was far from a sure thing.

When someone says to me "I'm against those bailouts" I ask them if their ATM card worked the last time they used it. "Of course it did" comes the reply. I then ask what they would do if it didn't work? They are those from the decks far away from the damage. those with little understanding of how close we came and with no understanding of what it was we came so close to. How sweet that naivete.

Now those people, the naive, the uninformed, the carefree, are being played for political gain. The Republicans have been a rock in the road at every bend to slow recovery for their benefit in 2010 and beyond. it's a strategy designed to win back power.  There is not a Congressman or Senator in this country that does not know the truth of the bailouts. That they were needed more to restore trust than replace capital. The 66 billion final price tag bares that out. They know, behind closed doors where the TARP deal was cut, that without it we were doomed. They know that without the bailouts the working life of a viable ATM card was measured in days. They knew that at least 25% of the companies in the S&P 500 would be unable to make payroll beyond October. And, without a delivery system to get that money to employees paying them was moot. They also knew that the dollar would be worthless in a matter of minutes had collapse come. So the deal was made to get the votes. Let those who need to save face by voting No vote No. I tell those who are against the bailouts that without the yes votes the first week of October 2008 their ATM cards would have stopped working by the second week of October. By the end of October they would have needed a gun to protect their property. Don't believe me? Again I ask, if your ATM card didn't work what would you do? What would you do if you found out you were wiped out? Your money is gone. There will not be anymore paychecks. That's what the bailouts prevented - so far. if you hear anyone tell you differently, they are either uninformed, misinformed or are being politically dishonest. The bailouts prevented amageddon.

When i call those here who agree with the Tea Party's point of view stupid, this is why I say that. It's Ok to have strongly held political beliefs. I  could care less how any of you feel about Obama. Hate him, fine with me. But to agree with the TP is to agree the bailouts weren't needed. The only reason you still have a way of life that has been uninterrupted from what you've always known is because of the bailouts. You know better or at least you should.

The danger here is there will be a next time. And, even with the bailouts we got lucky we didn't lose everything. With the not so deep thinkers in control, next time, we might not be so lucky.

I agree the two-party system is broken.  The multi-party system others countries use has become more effective.  They have to compromise to get things done as there is never a hope of having a super-majority to ram your will down people's throats, so win at all costs is pointless. 

When I was a kid, we were taught, with examples, of how the American political system was superior because it was based on democratic principles and compromise.  The latter is clearly dead and unlimited corporate / soft-money donations will continue to put more than a flesh wound in the former.  I doubt middle school kids today can be getting the same feel-good messages we were taught.  No wonder they're depressed.

wow  bond

you just trumped the all time retarded post with one even stupidier

there is plenty of blame to go around with subprime meltdown.   what "we" did with CDO's etc was horrible...

but the CORE reason for the subprime meltdown was (as usual) was unintendend consequeces of govt bullsti mettling and failure of govt   (please see 1. above.   "people are greedy"). 

without incentives for people to better themselves, crap fails.   (bond, you need to repeat this 25 times aday)

the problem was caused because of liberal ideals that everyone should own a home.

fnm,fre,cra,enterprise zones,clintons witch doctor mortgages etc etc

and, as ususal, all this crap seems great on papaer 

(lets help low income people get homes.   how can that be bad?)           

(please see karl marx, sounds great on papaer, doesnt work) 

this elizabrth warren,finreg, dodd frank clusterfukc is really kind of funny to watch.  

yep, theri 3000 pages will fix things.  funny

you know what regulation DOES work? 

simple, hard core limits to keep people in between the ditches

(ie Reg whatever  {reg t?}    you cant magin stocks over 50%  boom  works)

you want me to solve and ensure that subprime with NEVER happen again?    3000 pages>?  nope

one sentence.

law  :  "no mortages will be allowed to be sold from the original issuer"

wow.  brilliant      incentive to make damn sure people have skin in the game to get people to pay you back

     wow  that was hard

with no welfare govt agency bs invovled  (ie  commiemae and commiemac)

bond, you have some incredible insights in this business and the fixed income markets

but you have a naive 11th grade English major view of the rest of the world.    you sound like my kids and their stupid friends.   

liek I tell them, finish your trig homework.  

get a real job.   spend 5 years in the real world,

then lets talk.

those SEC mensa boys sta in madolfs office for 6 mg months.......bond

there was NO COMPANY there.

no trades

zero trades.  nothing.  no company

no company

6 months sitting there

they missed it

NO MF COMPANY THERE    THEY MISSED IT

im sure these guys will fix healthcare.  

jesus, how can people be so gd stupid

Well said, like poetry, Nettles.

There is no debating BG and some of these other libs. It always ends up with them calling you stupid.

BGs version of being accountable for name calling is to lecture on the obvious need for liquidity in the financial system.

Speaking of real cause and effect, I wonder if America will begin to look more and more like Europe as we run out of money:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phnj-lofCvc

A Spain-like city in the U.S. might be the best place to hang out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LmL5T9iNFI

This could never happen in California!

Thank goodness Obama will make everything "fair" in America.

( " I belive in the concept that you pay as you go.") Ooooops -----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUfo-RxkXA8

The first clip is your beloved Ireland, BG.

Last clip: Obama promises to stop using a credit card from China, tax the rich, "pay as we go."

Forgot about the pay as we go part.

Progressives are living in la-la land, and the debate usually ends with them saying that we are stupid.

Check it out here. It always ends in name calling and trying to make us out to be ignorant. Even though of the conservatives here have probably travelled or living in foreign countries, and started out poor. Not good enough credentials. This is why a lot of folks are just turning off the progressive channel and  looking forward. Actions matter, not words.

Well said Nettles?!?!?!  The guy can't string a coherent sentence together to save his life.  Both the manner and the message are devoid of any signs of intelligence.  Well said?!?!  Even though I expected to disagree with your position on this, I expected a little more objectivity. 

It's okay to like wine but hate Boones Farm.  I guess it's a sign that at the conservative table, that's the only crap that's being served these days.

The first step for either party is to acknowledge that there are useful elements on both platforms and that it really shouldn't always be either/or situations. 

" devoid of any signs of intelligence.  Well said?!?!  Even though I expected to disagree with your position on this, I expected a little more objectivity"

" It's okay to like wine but hate Boones Farm.  I guess it's a sign that at the conservative table, that's the only crap that's being served these days."

There is no point in talking with you. You don't care about what you are doing here.  Just wasting time.

"Off".

Sniff.  I'm hurt.

Your comment is a bit of a non-sequitor, in my opinion, or perhaps just plain weird.  So long.

Jen, I really have to thank you for giving me a greater understanding of one aspect of our political landscape. I now understand why so many Tea Party protest signs contain misspellings.

Jen, prove to me that you aren't a moron: Tell me, in complete sentences, exactly what happened in August, September, and October of 2008. What, exactly, the meltdown was, and what, exactly, caused it. Why the govt let ML BAC DB and others skate and went hammer down on Lehman. Leave out the political diatribe and finger pointing. Just in chronological order what happened.

If you don't respond it's a fail, it shows you don't know the answer. Politics aside if you don't know the answer you have no business being in this business. Feel free to cheat off the crib sheet i've given you in this thread.

[quote=Jennifer Nettles]

bond, you have some incredible insights in this business and the fixed income markets

but you have a naive 11th grade English major view of the rest of the world.    you sound like my kids and their stupid friends.   

liek I tell them, finish your trig homework.  

get a real job.   spend 5 years in the real world,

[/quote]

Exactly... This is the real world. There are winners and there are losers. Just the way it is. Some people were born to dig ditches. It's ok. We need ditches dug. Someone will be born that will cure cancer. It's ok as well. We need that too.

Bond guy, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to decide who deserves what and who will provide that. I am for helping people out BUT it should be done voluntarily through the private sector NOT involuntarily through government policies.

Small government. People helping people not people helping the government help people...

[quote=N.D.]

[quote=Jennifer Nettles]

bond, you have some incredible insights in this business and the fixed income markets

but you have a naive 11th grade English major view of the rest of the world.    you sound like my kids and their stupid friends.   

liek I tell them, finish your trig homework.  

get a real job.   spend 5 years in the real world,

[/quote]

Exactly... This is the real world. There are winners and there are losers. Just the way it is. Some people were born to dig ditches. It's ok. We need ditches dug. Someone will be born that will cure cancer. It's ok as well. We need that too.

Bond guy, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to decide who deserves what and who will provide that. I am for helping people out BUT it should be done voluntarily through the private sector NOT involuntarily through government policies.

Small government. People helping people not people helping the government help people...

[/quote]

Exactly what government policies or programs are you referring to?

I'm still waiting for jen's version of the meltdown.

[quote=BondGuy]

[quote=N.D.]

[quote=Jennifer Nettles]

bond, you have some incredible insights in this business and the fixed income markets

but you have a naive 11th grade English major view of the rest of the world.    you sound like my kids and their stupid friends.   

liek I tell them, finish your trig homework.  

get a real job.   spend 5 years in the real world,

[/quote]

Exactly... This is the real world. There are winners and there are losers. Just the way it is. Some people were born to dig ditches. It's ok. We need ditches dug. Someone will be born that will cure cancer. It's ok as well. We need that too.

Bond guy, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to decide who deserves what and who will provide that. I am for helping people out BUT it should be done voluntarily through the private sector NOT involuntarily through government policies.

Small government. People helping people not people helping the government help people...

[/quote]

Exactly what government policies or programs are you referring to?

I'm still waiting for jen's version of the meltdown.

[/quote]

any policy not listed in my previous post which I quoted below and highlighted for you...

[quote=N.D.]

Honestly, no. There is no way the amount of diversity in this country can be equally represented by two ideologies. Thats why the feds should step down and give the states back the responsibility and authority they so desperately need.

Feds = military policy, monetary policy, foreign policy, interstate/foreign commerce and nothing more...

[/quote]

[quote=tenthtee]

Well said, like poetry, Nettles.

[/quote]

"No mortgages will be allowed  to be sold from the original issuer"

Tenth, that is well said right? You agree with this?

That being the case i have to assume that you, like JN, have little understanding of not only what happened and why it happened, but also of what has driven our economy from the the mid 1970s going forward.

If you chose to reply you should note that mortgage origination sales have been in place for over 30 years. Why didn't they collapse the economy in 1977? Tell us, what would happen if the govt shuts down all mortgage sales?

If you understood what happened and why you'd know the answer. And, knowing that answer you'd also know how preposterous JN's reference to mortgage orgination sales is, and you would not have given her a two thumbs up "Well said!"

JN said "wow brilliant."  Actually, just the opposite. Incredibly ignorant.

 The problem is you folks get to vote.

[quote=BondGuy]

[quote=tenthtee]

Well said, like poetry, Nettles.

[/quote] 

"No mortgages will be allowed  to be sold from the original issuer"

Tenth, that is well said right? You agree with this?...[/quote]

Actually that is not a bad idea and one a "BondGuy" should consider. The mortgage originators should be allowed to use these loans as colateral to borrow against or sell debt intruments against to raise new capital for future loans. This keeps the loans either bundled or not on their books as an asset. This keeps them from defering all liability...