[quote=N.D.]

[quote=BondGuy]

Ah, the rich people speak!

So, none of you need credit? And, when you do, it's only for the short term. I'm not surprised. Meanwhile in the not so wealthy neighborhoods, where people are scraping to make their property tax payments,  your friendly neighborhood bank has fleeced it customers with interest rates that would make a loan shark blush. Charging rates so high, that the wealthiest among us could not pay the money back. They Prey on the poor and get richer for doing so. They sleep at night by putting blame on their victims, calling them dead beats, and fiscally irresponsible. Some of you have called them the same on this thread.  

[/quote]

If there is even a chance someone will not be able to pay their property taxes, why in the world would they own the property to start with? Financial ignorance, just as all forms of ignorance, is not a defense it is an excuse.

Just an fyi - As a child, we were dirt poor but we were very happy. I made the same financial mistakes as the people you are grandstanding for. I could of easily filed bankruptcy and started from scratch but I decided to educate myself and slowly pull my way out of that ditch. It was one of the reasons I decided to enter this field.

I hope someday you realize the difference between people looking for a handout and people looking for a hand up. If you truly cared as much as you, and the others with the same poor pitiful lower class attitude, like to sound you would address the REAL underlying concern... education. The public education system does not come close to preparing teenagers for the real world.

Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....

[/quote]

[quote=iliketennis]

Personal responsibility and regulation to better consumer protection are not mutually exclusive.

[/quote]

Witness, the financial meltdown. Oh wait a minute, politicians and regulators are going to change for the better this time.

AFTER the bailout. After supporting the big banks at the expense of the competition. AFTER taking most of Detroit, and creating an energy policy that puts alternative energy mostly at the receiving end of government handouts.

NOW you trust the government to protect consumers? ( Not laughing my a** off.)

[quote=N.D.]

There is a difference between selling toys with lead base paint and providing a credit card with OBVIOUS TERMS ATTACHED that only a fool would accept. This is an example of a greedy supplier providing a product to a greedy consumer. There is NO REASON a person MUST have a credit card. I cannot understand why the supplier is at fault?

[/quote]

If demand dried up, what would happen to the price of personal credit?

BG says we should wait around for the stimulus to kick in, the "repubs" have been obstructionist.

Even the repubs don't really get, mayb starting a little.

This grass roots  movement - the education of the masses about what is really going on - is a little threatening to the status quo. You ain't seen nothing yet. Do I think this will be good for the price of stocks and bonds? You bet!

 rich as you are this will never happen to you. You side with those who are Ok with this and allow it to happen. You side with those who are paid to make sure it continues. How is that doing the right thing? God Ok with turning away the sick because they can't pay?

I am not rich. I do not side with the status quo.

I am afraid of losing what little I have managed to build. Most of it is lifestyle. I thank God for my blessings.

Okay, I'm rich in that I have learned how to live by my wits a little, and been lucky where some folks have bad luck.

Every day is a new day. Thank God I can still pay cash for my kids college and all the other bills, including regular golf.

People who are making just a little less than I are getting college grants and other handouts. I am way below 250k on the 1040. Why should I start cold calling and make a weenie out of myself, so I can pay more taxes so BG can be Mr. Doogooder and give them away?

I'm scared about how America is sliding into the the jaws of socialism. I have lived in a socialist country, it ain't pretty.

As a boomer, I can tell you that fighting the status quo is more fun than being PC. I get the poor or sick boomers fighting for socialism, what I don't get is how the rich boomers can hasten the decline of America with their apparently well intentioned but misplaced idealism. I guess I'll never understand.

[quote=N.D.]

If there is even a chance someone will not be able to pay their property taxes, why in the world would they own the property to start with? Financial ignorance, just as all forms of ignorance, is not a defense it is an excuse.

Actually it's neither. It's a reason. As for the robbing Peter to pay Paul school of finance, How it works is like this: poor guy takes out a loan to buy a new furnace and hot water heater for his house. He needs a loan because at 8 bucks an hour it is impossible to save enough money to buy these things out right. He has a thin file FICO score of 820 making him buyable in loan world terms. Still, even with a higher FICO score than most of us he doesn't get favorable terms. The bank wants 21% secured as a second mortgage on his house. Of course the bank's plan is to take the house. He agrees because he needs heat. To pay the loan he takes a second job. That works for a while, but then he injures himself at work. His boss fires him and now the wolf is at the door. No excuses, not ignorance, just the way it is. He loses his house and the the elite (that would be you) point at him and call him stupid.

Just an fyi - As a child, we were dirt poor but we were very happy. I made the same financial mistakes as the people you are grandstanding for. I could of easily filed bankruptcy and started from scratch but I decided to educate myself and slowly pull my way out of that ditch. It was one of the reasons I decided to enter this field.

Just so we're on the same page, i'm not grandstanding for anyone. I'm against the fleecing of the underclasses. There has been a legalized tranference of wealth in this country, all legal. Who in their right mind thinks it's OK to charge anyone 30% interest? Let alone those who can least afford it? I'll tell you who, your republican congressman who has the banker's hand in his pocket. This person has voted against the poor at every opportunity. All you voted for him!

I hope someday you realize the difference between people looking for a handout and people looking for a hand up. If you truly cared as much as you, and the others with the same poor pitiful lower class attitude, like to sound you would address the REAL underlying concern... education. The public education system does not come close to preparing teenagers for the real world.

Characterizing those in need, the working poor, as looking for a handout is an insult to everyone of those people. That thinking also neatly gets you off the hook for not giving a damn. They're bums, right? They get what they deserve, and they certainly don't deserve help! That about sum it up? Of course it does. In your own words they are ignorant. Of course, in reality  that is not true, but because you couldn't live with yourself if you admiitted the truth you buy the lie.

As i reread my post I'm trying to figure out where you get that i pity the poor? This isn't about pitying the poor. It's about not taking advantage of those with lesser means. How and why that is allowed to happen.

I agree we need to do more about education in poor districts. In my state we are doing it. Over 2/3 of the education budget raised from state taxes goes to 26 school districts. Let me put that in context for you. There are 603 school districts in my state. Yet, 66 cents out of every education dollar goes to the 26 poorest districts. The other 577 districts get to split the remaining 33 cents.

Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....

Soapbox? That's funny! Coming from a guy who is posting on other threads about being owned ?  I point out that you've bought into a bought and paid for belief system created as part of a slick marketing campaign designed to bring repubs back to power and I'm on a soapbox? If believing in something you don't understand isn't being owned, what is?

[/quote]

What's left when left is left of left? You keep dividing with fractions because the left is never happy. The pieces get mighty small, but you never run out of fractions, only meaningful observations about them.

This is what happens when you have a shrinking pie. We're all being owned - I'm not "down" for it, but I hope the majority becomes silent, just like the good old days. ( Okay, they weren't so great, maybe better though.)

That I care about people being fleeced with the blessing of the repubican party makes me left of left? So, you can't care about people and money? Be careful what pigeon holes you put people into.

As for being a do gooder - i write about the FACT that the repubs have helped the rich fleece the poor and it reads handout? Not at all!!! The message is "Stop ripping people off !" The pigs feeding at the trough ended with the 08 crash. The old saying pigs get slaughtered fits perfectly. Now the pigs and all who support them are an unhappy lot. They long for the good old days and desperately want them back. And you will help them.

No, I won't help them.

My plan is to downsize the house, lower my income and taxes, but have steady income streams ( SS, savings, home equity, some biz equity, part time work).

I expect the poor baby boomers will turn America into an entitlement state.

Therefore, I am taking it easier now, and enjoying life, will likely die at my desk ( if I'm there instead of doing something else).

I don't really care what happens to the pigs, I'm not the guy who is defending the status quo.  

I see the reality and I adjust. China is the new America, in terms of opportunity.

You and I are just a couple of gnats fighting on the head of a pin :). Your message is unclear.

Regulations are needed in many sectors. I think people just need to figure out that, as with everything else, regulation is a term that encompasses a lot of different types of action. It's not necessarily price dictatorship or rationing of goods.

Thanks, President Obama! I just love to stand transfixed watching train wrecks and fearing for my way of life and loved ones' future. If we can only get the regulations right, everything's gonna be all right. Here's 10 million in soft dollars from the insurance industry, there's 10 million from the RIAs. Let's keep everybody guessing over at the train wreck while we loot the big house.

[quote=BondGuy]

You really are sheep, aren't you?

Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group. Everyday, I honestly hope that people aren't this stupid. But, here it is, a thread like this one, stupidity on parade!

[/quote]

BondGuy, you are right, of course.  But perhaps the rest of us are relatively silent because we have concluded that if you choose to throw mud with the swine you are sure to end up stinking and dirty.  Plus, it's more enjoyable and more of a learning experience to spend time with people who have an open mind.  If someone has managed to become a "financial advisor" without having any clue about economics and policy, as many of the participants on this board clearly have, then it is surely too late for them...

[quote=lovindaindy]

I started my business on credit cards as well.  The interest rates were 0%.  Paid them off by the time the rate was going to go up - to 9%!

The problem isn't the interest rates.  The problem is letting people who can't afford credit, get it. 

High interest rates are supposed to be a curb on demand.  If the pool of borrowers is large, those higher interest rates are supposed to be a check on people NOT applying for credit.  The problem is that the borrowers with bad credit feel like it is free money.  It is a lack of financial education.  As long as that exists, you are going to have high interest rates for people who shouldn't have them.

If you took time out of the equation and asked that person who has bad credit - you can pay $1000 for this big screen tv, or you can pay $10,000 for it, which one do you choose?  I bet they would say $1000.  Unfortunately, people don't understand interest.  And it's never put in to perspective.

[/quote]

Whether it be revolving or mortgage, the problem is not the people who want credit who shouldn't have it.  People have always wanted that.  The problem is that the financial industry found a way to give it to them, pass off the risk, and make tons of money for everyone who colluded in the scheme along the way.  The people didn't change - they've never been financially sophisticated.  The financial industry didn't really change - they've always been equal parts ingenius, unscrupulous and greedy.  What changed is that the regulators fell asleep and allowed massive financial risks to be passed down the line to tax payers.  De-regulation, a concept so necessary in the early eightees, was taken way too far in the Bush administration.  As is often the case, we lurched from one extreme to the other.  And now, before we have time to implement a correction, it appears that most here would push the pendulum even further up the de-regulatory arc, probably until it swings all the way around and hits us in the a$$ - again.

But this board represents the financial industry and there's obviously no saving us from ourselves!

A fool and his money are easily parted. That's what you have social services for - the thing I hate are the bailouts and takeovers.

They say it is to maintain liquidity in the system. Everything and anything in the name of liquidity. You can never get around that one.

It is the begining of complexity and the end of the individual. All you can do is attempt to diversify your own stuff over time.

Remember, nature prefers to burn over many different types of natural areas as a way to kill disease and weeds and renew the forest

What we have here is a forest that is never allowed to burn. Out West, that has harbored many funky type of invasive insect species, and the Forest Service ( a U.S. government agency) has been forced to allow nature to take its course and burn down the forests at times.

I don't believe the T Party will be bashful about doing what needs to be done - as the average person's economic IQ goes up, we can begin to sit back and enjoy the fruits. Regulations are not the really interesting or relevant thing right now, in a relative sense. I believe the deregulation started with Clinton. Sheesh, where are all of the conservatives here?

When the markets and greed went to excess, we lost our nerve. Just like immigration, for the love of Pete, why don't we just put everyone to work and start creating some wealth? Untie our hands so we can be good capitalists. I can't take it any more, seriously, I have to flee for a while.

[quote=BondGuy]

[quote=N.D.]

If there is even a chance someone will not be able to pay their property taxes, why in the world would they own the property to start with? Financial ignorance, just as all forms of ignorance, is not a defense it is an excuse.

Actually it's neither. It's a reason. As for the robbing Peter to pay Paul school of finance, How it works is like this: poor guy takes out a loan to buy a new furnace and hot water heater for his house. He needs a loan because at 8 bucks an hour it is impossible to save enough money to buy these things out right. He has a thin file FICO score of 820 making him buyable in loan world terms. Still, even with a higher FICO score than most of us he doesn't get favorable terms. The bank wants 21% secured as a second mortgage on his house. Of course the bank's plan is to take the house. He agrees because he needs heat. To pay the loan he takes a second job. That works for a while, but then he injures himself at work. His boss fires him and now the wolf is at the door. No excuses, not ignorance, just the way it is. He loses his house and the the elite (that would be you) point at him and call him stupid.

[/quote]

[/quote]

Lot of "what ifs" there but I feel the poor guy should rent not buy. Just the way it is. I rented until I was able to buy. I own a very modest home that will not bankrupt me if the garbage disposal tears up.

I did not call anyone "stupid," I said ignorant. Look up the definition. Everyone is ignorant of something. I guess you are ignorant to equities since you sling bonds (just teasing  but hopefully you get the point)

[quote=BondGuy]

[quote=N.D.]

Just an fyi - As a child, we were dirt poor but we were very happy. I made the same financial mistakes as the people you are grandstanding for. I could of easily filed bankruptcy and started from scratch but I decided to educate myself and slowly pull my way out of that ditch. It was one of the reasons I decided to enter this field.

Just so we're on the same page, i'm not grandstanding for anyone. I'm against the fleecing of the underclasses. There has been a legalized tranference of wealth in this country, all legal. Who in their right mind thinks it's OK to charge anyone 30% interest? Let alone those who can least afford it? I'll tell you who, your republican congressman who has the banker's hand in his pocket. This person has voted against the poor at every opportunity. All you voted for him!

[/quote]

[/quote]

We will just have to disagree, I suppose. I think that people control their own path while you feel that the cannot and therefore need guardrails for some reason??? Our President has said many times that he and Michelle both are results of hard work and living the American Dream. What does the underclass not get that Obama's mother or Michelle's parents did get? How is it that against ALL odds Obama was able to obtain an education and climb the ladder run by run to get where he is today?

[quote=BondGuy]

[quote=N.D.]

I hope someday you realize the difference between people looking for a handout and people looking for a hand up. If you truly cared as much as you, and the others with the same poor pitiful lower class attitude, like to sound you would address the REAL underlying concern... education. The public education system does not come close to preparing teenagers for the real world.

Characterizing those in need, the working poor, as looking for a handout is an insult to everyone of those people. That thinking also neatly gets you off the hook for not giving a damn. They're bums, right? They get what they deserve, and they certainly don't deserve help! That about sum it up? Of course it does. In your own words they are ignorant. Of course, in reality  that is not true, but because you couldn't live with yourself if you admiitted the truth you buy the lie.

As i reread my post I'm trying to figure out where you get that i pity the poor? This isn't about pitying the poor. It's about not taking advantage of those with lesser means. How and why that is allowed to happen.

I agree we need to do more about education in poor districts. In my state we are doing it. Over 2/3 of the education budget raised from state taxes goes to 26 school districts. Let me put that in context for you. There are 603 school districts in my state. Yet, 66 cents out of every education dollar goes to the 26 poorest districts. The other 577 districts get to split the remaining 33 cents.

[/quote]

[/quote]

I am not characterizing anyone, that would be you. I am drawing a line between the two. I am 100% for helping people that want to help themselves. You are asking me if they are "bums" and "they get what they deserve." You must enjoy putting words in other's mouth or assuming asinine thoughts when you read a post. But since you mentioned what people "deserve" I will add my thoughts on it. People that are born or become a U.S. citizen deserve the OPPORTUNITY to better themselves. I didn't say they deserve a better life but I did say they deserve a chance to give themselves a better life.

[quote=BondGuy]

[quote=N.D.]

Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....

Soapbox? That's funny! Coming from a guy who is posting on other threads about being owned ?  I point out that you've bought into a bought and paid for belief system created as part of a slick marketing campaign designed to bring repubs back to power and I'm on a soapbox? If believing in something you don't understand isn't being owned, what is?

[/quote]

[/quote]

Yes soapbox... my "owned" post was funny to me. Not sure your point. Unless you are trying to make a connection that I want regulation on the board but not in the markets??? Also I have not bought into any system that has an actual chance of being in control in Washington. But I do believe we need change. Most importantly a change in the materialistic need, desire for instant gratification and fear of not being politically correct.

Just like my disapproval with Upward basketball programs, contrary to belief, it is ok to lose, right. If not then lets watch the Bears/Packers tonight and hopefully they will tie so no one has to get their feelings hurt and feel subordinate to anyone else.

[quote=loneMADman]

[quote=BondGuy]

You really are sheep, aren't you?

Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group. Everyday, I honestly hope that people aren't this stupid. But, here it is, a thread like this one, stupidity on parade!

[/quote]

BondGuy, you are right, of course.  But perhaps the rest of us are relatively silent because we have concluded that if you choose to throw mud with the swine you are sure to end up stinking and dirty.  Plus, it's more enjoyable and more of a learning experience to spend time with people who have an open mind.  If someone has managed to become a "financial advisor" without having any clue about economics and policy, as many of the participants on this board clearly have, then it is surely too late for them...

[/quote]

Ah, a glimmer of hope!

Well said!

[Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....

[/quote]

 BondGuy has been a great help to me and others on this board. he has earned the right to his opinions. We can all agree to disagree. The constant fighting is the problem with this country today!

Plus, it's more enjoyable and more of a learning experience to spend time with people who have an open mind.  If someone has managed to become a "financial advisor" without having any clue about economics and policy, as many of the participants on this board clearly have, then it is surely too late for them...

Really,  Mad?

Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group.

Seriously, Bond Guy?

Not much more reason to go on here, I reckon I'll just go clean my guns and feed the pigs.  

Yes, seriously!

Y'all are jumin' on the anti Obama bandwagon. A bandwagon that is Madison Avenue slick. None of us can understand how blind or naive or uniformed or misunformed the Bogleheads are, but then y'all fall this load of bullshit? Seriously?

 We had a balanced budget and limited government spending under Clinton. We also had a budget surplus. Any Clinton supporters in the group?

We had an energy policy under Carter that reduced our dependance on foreign oil by 50%. Reagan undid it as fast as he could. If we'd kept those policies in place there would have been no Gulf War and no Iraq War. We would be masters of our own economy. How many Carter fans we got here?

Undo health care? Exactly how would that affect you? Is there anyone in this country who doesn't deserve health care?

By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive the bailouts were unnecessary and we shouldn't have done them?

By a show of hands how many of you have been tangibly adversely affected by the current administration?

By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive there has been enough time since the 08 meltdown for recovery to take place?

Yeah, tenth, seriously!

Though I am not a big fan of either Carter or Clinton, BG is dead-nuts, balls-on accurate about what they tried to do/did regarding oil dependence and budget surpluses, respectively.  I give Carter credit for having the balls to tell America what it needed to hear, not what it wanted to hear....Even if it cost him at the polls.

[quote=BondGuy]

Actually, you don't know what i believe. But, that's Ok, for your world to work i've got to fit in a certain box. I get it.

Singling out the repubs is putting blame exactly where it belongs. All, the laws that allow the fleecing of the poor passed under repub leadership or congressional control. The polictical economics of the repubs is to fleece the poor legally.  Has the republican party not been a rock in the road to economic recovery? At who's expense? Not yours! It's all about getting power back in their hands. They don't care if it hurts the common man. The common man is not part of their party. The poor man who's hours have been cut by recession is not part of their party.

Think about this for a moment: Small businessman are bitching about having to provide health care to their employees. You would think small business people would want healthy employees. After-all healthy employees are good for business. More productivity etc, right? So, what's the problem? The problem is the small business owner doesn't want to give any more of his money to his employees. Employees, i might add, who are enriching the businessman. It's much more profitable for the businessman to fire the sick employee and hire a healthy one. You side with those who agree with this thinking. How is that doing the right thing? How, does that square with God?

Insurance companies are allowed to drop those who are seriously ill. Hospitals use loopholes to refuse treatment to the uninsured critically ill. All in the name of profit. Of course, rich as you are this will never happen to you. You side with those who are Ok with this and allow it to happen. You side with those who are paid to make sure it continues. How is that doing the right thing? God Ok with turning away the sick because they can't pay?

You are correct about people being misinformed or uninformed. That people are blaming the current admin for the economy is proof of that. The repubs are playing it for all it's worth. And, so we're clear, what i'm saying is that there hasn't been enough time for recovery. The repubs have done everything they can do to prevent a recovery from happening. The average voter, uniformed, or misinformed, doesn't realize the time it takes to recover. If the economy is in the tank at election time the incumbants get the boot. Witness George Bush in 92. Fact is, then, as it is now, the govt has done what is needed and recovery is on line to take place.

Question: When you pass from this earth and are at the Pearly Gates and St. Peter asks: "Why did you help people who hurt so many of your fellow man?" What's your answer?

[/quote]

oh palezzzz.    

You trying to get to heaven like Gates et al and the other limo libs?

1.  people are greedy

2. free markets work

3. failure and stupidity has consequences.    America needs MORE personal responsibility.

 (just like T. jefferson et al meant it to be)

You have guilt brother?   thats your issue.

Karl marx sound wonderful on paper.   it just does not work.

If they can get 25%......God bless em.

how that war on poverty going?

truth in lending?

home mortgage modifications?

10 years from now.......your hero liz warren bs agency with be one more monster govt clusterfukc.

like ALWAYS