If you're bright enough to follow the links you can find them.

Are you saying that you do not believe that Islam is, at its core, a belief founded in revenge and violence?

Are you saying that you do not believe that the Quran teaches that if you don't believe it literally you are an infidel?

[quote=Dust Bunny]

So how about if you show us where the Qu'uran or a mainstream Muslim organization supports some of these things

Show us where they don't.  [/quote]

Seems to me you have the burden of proof here...

[quote=Dust Bunny]I know that the entire Muslim population doesn't support these things, but they need to become vocal about it.   So far, the vocal part has been the extremists, CAIR, the Flying Imams and others. [/quote]

That much I agree with. However, that doesn't justify the "gutter religion" slur and the assumption they're all terrorist symps until proven otherwise.

Joe, I only call people fools who are speaking foolishly.

I respect others' opinions, so long as they can back them up with evidence of a thought process. Even if I agree with the opinion, if the person can't back it up, well then that person is talking foolishly. (BTW, Mikebutler222 is NOT good at backing up "his" opinions, he's only good at insisting on their efficacy. He's also VERY VERY good at directing the flow of discussion, which is a talent I do not have and I admire it in others, Mikebutler222 included.)

I will, however, say that it is a fool's errand to try to have a reasoned, rational conversation with Devil's-Advocate. 

[quote=mikebutler222]

That much I agree with. However, that doesn't justify the "gutter religion" slur and the assumption they're all terrorist symps until proven otherwise.

[/quote]

In my never ending quest to be sensitive, what would be a better adjective than "Gutter?"

Do those of you who use the emoticons clap your hands in glee like a four year old every time you place one, or do you wait till you are about to post them then giggle and clap all at once?

[quote=Whomitmayconcer]

I will, however, say that it is a fool's errand to try to have a reasoned, rational conversation with Devil's-Advocate. 

[/quote]

That would make him your twin....

[quote=Devil’sAdvocate]

[quote=mikebutler222]

That much I agree with. However, that doesn't justify the "gutter religion" slur and the assumption they're all terrorist symps until proven otherwise.

[/quote]

In my never ending quest to be sensitive, what would be a better adjective than "Gutter?"

[/quote]

Most anything that doesn't slur the entire group.

Now, you and Whom go get a room...

[quote=mikebutler222]

Most anything that doesn't slur the entire group.

[/quote]

I guess think that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim is probably insensitive too?

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=Whomitmayconcer]

I will, however, say that it is a fool's errand to try to have a reasoned, rational conversation with Devil's-Advocate. 

[/quote]

That would make him your twin....

[/quote]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.....................

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dust Bunny]

So how about if you show us where the Qu'uran or a mainstream Muslim organization supports some of these things

Show us where they don't.  [/quote]

Seems to me you have the burden of proof here...

[quote=Dust Bunny]I know that the entire Muslim population doesn't support these things, but they need to become vocal about it.   So far, the vocal part has been the extremists, CAIR, the Flying Imams and others. [/quote]

That much I agree with. However, that doesn't justify the "gutter religion" slur and the assumption they're all terrorist symps until proven otherwise.

[/quote]

I've never called Islam a gutter religion or said they are all Muslims are terrorist sympathizers.  I just am pointing out that the "moderate" voices are missing.  If Catholics were bombing people in England and using the Catholic religion to justify these actions, I would expect and demand that my church offically denounce such actions.  When the IRA was doing it's dirty deeds, in fact many Catholic groups held protests and preached against these actions.  The shame is that some didn't and even supported the IRA for ethnic (Irish) identity reasons, but the Church as representing the religion denounced them.

Where are the moderate Muslims, the Imams preaching against Islamofascis? Maybe they ARE out there protesting.  Someone said they don't have their own media.  Perhaps some of the blame lies on our mainstream media for not giving air time to moderates for whatever reason.  The MSM refused to publish some innocuous cartoons yet have no difficulty covering offensive images to Christian religions. (Piss Christ, Dung Mary)  Is it political correctness bending over backwards that we don't air the opposite side of the story, or are we actually afraid for our lives?  If the latter, then that says nothing good about Islam or the strength of a supposed moderate opposition to the terrorists and says a lot about our own weaknesses and lack of convictions.

[quote=Devil'sAdvocate]A religion that preaches that anyone who disagrees should be killed is a gutter religion.[/quote]

So then, what does this mean?

Matthew 24:34-37 — Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

or this:

Exodus 35:2 — Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Sounds scary.

I concur.  Add to that the part about how Putsy wishes all Muslims in the U.S. were living in fear and being 'hunted'.  While I understand the anger, having lived through 9/11 in NY, the imagery both saddens and disgusts me.  I find myself once again pitying our poor, bitter, retired former wirehouse middle manager that he is so consumed with hate and resentment at his failed life.

Great point. We all see what this business can do to a person. At the personal level, the reason we pray is not to change God, but to change ourselves. We can hold "all Muslims" accountable without destroying our own humanity, that is the imperative, and in a loving manner, like the attempt in Iraq,  but for most liberals that is incompatible with their own concept of individual liberty.

The difference is, the radical "them", really mean it when they say, " a dead Christian is a Muslim ". That is why we have to take leadership and use force (Iraq is our attempt) in a loving manner. This is the language of (Christian Judaic) love that will be understood, not necessarily liked, but understood. It is a religious problem, backed up with loving military solution, and many liberals don't understand it because it requires faith and conviction. All of us may be consumed by our own hate, or lack of faith, this is a constant danger - but liberals being cynical about this having anything to do with God is really ironic, almost to the point of being comical.

[quote=pretzelhead]

So then, what does this mean?

Matthew 24:34-37 — Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[/quote]

First, it's Matthew 10, not 24.

What Christ is doing is teaching that we are to love him more than we love our own family.  He is not teaching that we should kill those who do not believe.

As for the passage from Exodus--the Jews were not a tollerant bunch, however you will not hear Rabbis getting up in the synogogues and all but demanding that those who were not there should be killed.

That is not the case with the Mosques.  The Imams are notorious for spreading hatred, and as I said earlier.  If a Muslim does not take the Quarn literally they cannot be considered a Muslim--so by definition there can be no such thing as a "Moderate Muslim."

The term is similar to "Cafeteria Catholic."  You're not going to find priests telling their flock that it's OK to not believe in the basics of the religion.

A cafeteria Catholic is not a Catholic and a moderate Muslim is not a Muslim.

Nonetheless, you can wait for the rest of your life and probably won't hear anybody who believes themselves to be of the Islamic faith condemn what is being done in the name of that faith.

A number of years ago a guy named Jim Jones started a religion.  It was a gutter religion too--there are such things.

John W. Olver, D-MassQUOTE=mikebutler222][quote=Dust Bunny]

So how about if you show us where the Qu'uran or a mainstream Muslim organization supports some of these things

Show us where they don't.  [/quote]

Seems to me you have the burden of proof here...

[quote=Dust Bunny]I know that the entire Muslim population doesn't support these things, but they need to become vocal about it.   So far, the vocal part has been the extremists, CAIR, the Flying Imams and others. [/quote]

That much I agree with. However, that doesn't justify the "gutter religion" slur and the assumption they're all terrorist symps until proven otherwise.

[/quote]

I've never called Islam a gutter religionor said they are all Muslims are terrorist sympathizers. [/quote]

No, you didn't. My apologizes for lumping your comments in with  Putsy's.

Whomit: You make a lot of good points. Many of them are intellectually refined and distinctive, within the realm of intellectual freedom.

You appear to conclude that trying to influence "conservatives" is hopeless.

In the same spirit as the distinctions that you make, and your call for critical consideration of these points, please allow yourself the intellectual freedom to make a leap and consider my next point.

Many believe in God (something like 90% of Americans). Many less believe in the existence of good and evil - interesting - a much, much lower percentage. The pervert who repeatedly sexually abuses little girls and murders, the dead dictator of Iraq - many believe these humans have not been corrupted to become evil itself, rather, their behaviour is corrupted, or they are sociopathic - but not evil.

The absolutism of the concept of evil is not a very " intellectual " treatment of certain observable human behaviours. In the West, believing that evil exists as an absolute is suspect - certainly not a word that could be mentioned at the Democratic National Convention.

It appears to me that many liberals - not all, by any measure, believe that freedom comes from nature.

Many who believe in God believe that freedom - freedom to choose between good and evil - is our most basic gift from God.

Not to say that some humans are born as sociopaths - perhaps by nature, they can't " choose ", and become good or evil, and deserve compassion (as do those who choose evil).

The intellectual distinction I would make here, is not that the Christian Judeo model is good and radical Islam is evil, rather, those who would repress free choice - between good and evil - these folks are evil.

Guess what, there are intelligent, caring, loving people who have already thought through your distinctions and chosen to process the entire issue of how we handle radical Islam at a higher level - meaning the use of loving force in Iraq to handle what is basically a human behavioural issue.

But if you break it down, we have liberal leadership in this country that is in denial of the basics - 90% of folks believe in God ( is that only a sweet God, or does it include the angry God of our collective Old Testament), many are in denial of Satan (smirk, smirk, let's go get a latte and talk about something important), and most of all, many believe freedom comes from nature, that it is natural, and there is no moral imperative to dig deep into our spiritual natures to find sensible responsible duty in response to the " God-inspired " behaviour of those radical Muslims who would force their interpretation of our God given gift of free choice.

I don't expect you to understand this, because it is faith and experience based. We should have compassion with each other, and meditate on the possibility that each of us or both of us need to have a little bigger perception of the Truth, certainly in my humanity I offer this as only a starting point.

[quote=Devil’sAdvocate][quote=pretzelhead]

So then, what does this mean?

Matthew 24:34-37 — Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[/quote]

First, it's Matthew 10, not 24.

What Christ is doing is teaching that we are to love him more than we love our own family.  He is not teaching that we should kill those who do not believe.

As for the passage from Exodus--the Jews were not a tollerant bunch, however you will not hear Rabbis getting up in the synogogues and all but demanding that those who were not there should be killed.

That is not the case with the Mosques.  The Imams are notorious for spreading hatred, and as I said earlier.  If a Muslim does not take the Quarn literally they cannot be considered a Muslim--so by definition there can be no such thing as a "Moderate Muslim."

The term is similar to "Cafeteria Catholic."  You're not going to find priests telling their flock that it's OK to not believe in the basics of the religion.

A cafeteria Catholic is not a Catholic and a moderate Muslim is not a Muslim.

Nonetheless, you can wait for the rest of your life and probably won't hear anybody who believes themselves to be of the Islamic faith condemn what is being done in the name of that faith.

A number of years ago a guy named Jim Jones started a religion.  It was a gutter religion too--there are such things.

[/quote]

They're all gutter.

1. God (uncreated, before time and eternal).

2. People who " fear " God and evil, who respect free choice for all. Affirm good and evil.  (Conservative.)

3. People who fear God and evil, who interpret choices for others. (Radical Muslim.)

3. People who fear God, who respect free choice. (Liberal.)

Liberals see themselves as reasonable moderators between conservatives and radicals. They do not recognize evil, rather, through positive affirmations (mainly just thinking) they create their own reality. From the perspective of both conservatives and radicals, they have become " baby Gods ", since liberals negative half of the basic tenet of free choice (they don't believe evil really exists).

There is no logical end to this debate - their is only faith and behavioural affirmation, and human thought.