Insanity Test
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When talking about people who are as American as you or I, who are Muslim, DB instantly connected them to 9/11. This sounds a lot like religious persecution to me.
I'm talking about people who chose a religious ideology that promotes killing others who don't believe the same as they do and a religious ideology that has a political agenda.
I don't care if they are American, French, Somali or anything else. If you don't protest or shout out and say that you do not agree with the actions of your religion then I hold them just as accountable as the people who perpetrate terrorism. The same issue goes for Christians who don't deny the extremists in their own camp.
There is nothing racist about it. I realize that there may be moderate Muslims who don't agree with the terrorists, but until they stand up for themselves they WILL be tarred with the same brush.
In the United States, there is absolutely no excuse for remaining complicit and silent on this issue since they are not in danger of being stoned to death and Sharia Law isn't implemented by the government. The moderate Muslims remaining silent tells me that they agree by default with the jihadists and their agenda.
The 9/11 terrorist hold the record for killing the most amercans in a terrorist act. Do you know who held that dubious record before 9/11. Timothy McVeigh. White boy american. Yet no outcry to string up white trash?
He's one White boy american trash. He wasn't joined by 17 other White boy american trash while the rest of the White boy american trash applauded their actions or refused to speak out against their actions.
There was certainly an outcry to string up McVeigh and there would have been an outcry to string up any group that supported his actions.
Joe,
"Not once have I seen a mainstream US Muslim group issue a condemnation of the perversion of Islam to justify terrorism. And how often do we hear of Jews calling for the abolishion of Israel? How many times have we heard of using US Military force to "Protect our interests" in foreign countries. I find this troubling. And rightfully so. If they want to be Americans, then they need to act like it. By protesting? In prior generations waves of immigrants came to this country and made an effort to learn the language and embrace our culture while preserving and cherishing aspects of their own heritage. You mean like Salt Lake City, right? Most every group that has come to this country has gathered (by choice or by economics) into small ghettoes and fought assimilation like the plague. They've all lost the battle eventually, but it was never for lack of trying. I am afraid that is not so much the case in this generation of immigrants, Muslims or otherwise, and I think it is at the heart of many growing problems in this country.
Want to see a glimpse of the future if we don't address this issue head-on? Take a look at France the last few years....
While I see what you mean, what's ironic about it is that the French have been much less tolerant of outside influence than we. The French are very much into the idea that France is unique in the world's history as the world's great thinkers and artists and lovers and cuisinaires etc etc etc. There are very strict laws in France about, hell just about everything!
But there is another big difference with France. The arab people who live there are generally decendents of arabs in countries that France was once ruler of. Northern Africa was where the French went to be imperialist (Along with the forays into south east asia).
And then the third issue is simply land mass and population. It takes a lot fewer people (and all peoples are more concentrated in France) to make a difference in France.
[quote=anonymous]
The 9/11 terrorist hold the record for killing the most amercans in a terrorist act. Do you know who held that dubious record before 9/11. Timothy McVeigh. White boy american. Yet no outcry to string up white trash?
He's one White boy american trash. He wasn't joined by 17 other White boy american trash while the rest of the White boy american trash applauded their actions or refused to speak out against their actions.
There was certainly an outcry to string up McVeigh and there would have been an outcry to string up any group that supported his actions.
[/quote]
That's not really true. You seem to forget the "Militia" movement that decried Bush's "New World Order" and advocated overthrow of the government. They applauded McVeigh (a retired military man)!
[quote=anonymous]
The 9/11 terrorist hold the record for killing the most amercans in a terrorist act. Do you know who held that dubious record before 9/11. Timothy McVeigh. White boy american. Yet no outcry to string up white trash?
He's one White boy american trash. He wasn't joined by 17 other White boy american trash while the rest of the White boy american trash applauded their actions or refused to speak out against their actions.
There was certainly an outcry to string up McVeigh and there would have been an outcry to string up any group that supported his actions.
[/quote]
He acted autonomously but was part of an anti-government group. Actually there was at least one co-conspiriter.
DB,
Did you notice how he appealed to the Jewish vote there? He made fun of the "Blame Isreal" crowd.
Did you notice that he is saying some of the same things that "Liberals" here are saying? That the war has been grossly mishandled thus far.
He's running away from the administration and he's saying things that appeals to liberals (we're so happy anybody on the right sees that Bush's work has been incompetent, we'll even take Newt's word for it.)
That's all I have been saying. Thanks for linking the video.
[quote=Dust Bunny]
When talking about people who are as American as you or I, who are Muslim, DB instantly connected them to 9/11. This sounds a lot like religious persecution to me.
I'm talking about people who chose a religious ideology that promotes killing others who don't believe the same as they do and a religious ideology that has a political agenda.
I don't care if they are American, French, Somali or anything else. If you don't protest or shout out and say that you do not agree with the actions of your religion then I hold them just as accountable as the people who perpetrate terrorism. The same issue goes for Christians who don't deny the extremists in their own camp.
There is nothing racist about it. I realize that there may be moderate Muslims who don't agree with the terrorists, but until they stand up for themselves they WILL be tarred with the same brush.
In the United States, there is absolutely no excuse for remaining complicit and silent on this issue since they are not in danger of being stoned to death and Sharia Law isn't implemented by the government. The moderate Muslims remaining silent tells me that they agree by default with the jihadists and their agenda.
[/quote]
Ok, you've made your position clear, again. That's some interesting thinking.
I disagree that Muslims who are just going about their lives, just as you or I, are complicit because they are not stopping the terrorist. You are under the misguided belief that the Muslims in this country have a way to control the terrorist. They don't. A jihadist invasion where the madmen kill all of us would include American Muslims who are looked upon as sell outs.
Please name one Muslim leader who has a national voice?
Please show me one U.S. based Muslim television network?
The Muslim voice doesn't rise above the local communty newspaper. There is no national network. That is why you don't hear the Muslim outcry against the terrorist. In my neck of the woods Muslim leaders have decried terrorism on several occasions. I guess you missed that? Which is exactly the point.
Holding entire religions, groups, or races responsible for the sins of a relatively few is a slippery slope. Are you responsible for everything your race, religion , nationality does? Are you trying to stop all the wrongs of these various groups? Maybe you are. But unless you are an activist you are no different than the Muslims you choose to persecute for doing no less. It doesn't have to be about life or death issues. Please think about it.
[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=Whomitmayconcer]
Further, the people that I have known to come out of the military have a sense of patriotism that ignores it's own inconsistencies with a fervor that surpasses most religious fervors (regardless of how they went in). It's as if they are trying so hard to convince themselves that it comes spilling out on the rest of us. It is absolutely known that the fabric of a military is antithetical to a democracy. Everybody knows this (that knows anything) and everybody has known this since long before "democracy' existed. Plato's The Republic is about this fact for crying out loud! So to listen to some "Ex-Military" man yak at me about "Patriotism, and Rights, and Freedoms and motherhood and apple pie" is like taking sex tips from a Shaker!
[/quote]
Nice try there, whomit. So any of us who dare disagree with you on this count know nothing? You are clearly intelligent, but your brains are surpassed by your arrogance.
Just remember that those soldiers you despise so much served so that you would have the freedom to express how you disrespect them. Some of them even died so that you could espouse your ridiculuous views.
If we didn't have a strong military, we most likely wouldn't have survived as a free country all these years. We'd probably all be speaking German or Russian right now.
Are they perfect? Always morally right? No. Is there a certain amount of tension between the interests of a military and the interest of a free democratic society? Absolutely.
But without them my family and I would not enjoy the freedoms and prosperity that we have today. So I honor, respect, and appreciate our men and women in uniform.
Oh, and in case you wondered, I'm not ex-military, so you can't write me off as some brainwashed addle-brained flag waving vet. Nope. I'm just a patriotic American. I wish I could say the same for you...but I think in your own mind you are bigger than the ideals upon which this country is built. Ever consider moving to Canada?
[/quote]
Joe, Joe... Joe, the joester, Ramalamajoedong joeerino, the joeinator..
I never said that there shouldn't be a military. I don't disagree with the methods of militarisation, I just recognize it for what it is.
Even more than Separation of Church and State, the founding fathers wanted a separation of Military and state. Our Constitution is distinctly different from military rule and it is to control the military that there are Rights agains Illegal search and seizure, Speedy trial and three branches of govenrment to control the ability of any one branch of government from takning over the military for its own purposes.
The military is a separate society that we live symbiotically with. They can't survive without our money and we can't survive without their protections.
It is absolutely a fact that, throughout history the relationship between the military and the civilian governments has been dicey. Ever heard of Julius Ceasar? Cicero? Crasus? The Triumverate? it's a fascinating story, I'd suggest this book http://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Times-Romes-Greatest-Politician /dp/037575895X
As an American (I know you're not going to understand this and it's going to give you a colossal wedgie) I'm right to despise soldiers. They represent everything that we are against. They live under a totalitarian regime, we freedom loving Americans hate totalitarianism! We can not understand why someone would WANT to live like that. I don't despise the people individually, but I don't think their opinions about freedom and patriotism are worth as much as they would like us to believe.
I thank people who have traded their lives for a life in the military. And I try to convince people who are thinking about it NOT to go. But once they have gone, I'm not one to discourage them.
But, again, they have traded somethings for another thing, and one of the things they have traded is the claim to objectivity, they gave that away.
I'm not your definition of "patriotic". I AM the Founding Fathers' definition of Patriotic, however. You'll forgive me if I count their opinion above yours, I'm sure.
[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=BondGuy]
[/quote]
Mike, I too find you to be a valuble contributor to the board. As I do DB. Certainly I see the religious connection to the Jihadist movement. But what i also see is Jihadist hysteria. One of the founding cornerstones of our constitution is freedom from religious persecution. Yet, as one reads through this thread we find statements telling us to deport all Muslims, Hunt them, go live in the sand lot with them, don't trust them. When talking about people who are as American as you or I, who are Muslim, DB instantly connected them to 9/11. This sounds a lot like religious persecution to me. Regardless, it is hysteria run wild. This is what got blacks lynched 90 years ago. And in my book it wrong.
When you exclude one group of people you don't like what would you call it? I call it racism. And it is far from tired. There is a movement in this country to forward the thinking put forward on this board.
I'll back off from calling anyone on this board a racist. I'll do so because I think some have not fully thought out their posts and are looking at the subject myopically. However, all should be aware of the racist nature of their comments. And I leave room that some have bought into the anti Muslim movement.
[/quote]
BG I agree with some of your comments about hysteria.
Having said that, I can understand why some of the more virulent anti-Muslims feel the way they do. It is a fact that the 9/11 terrorists and other potential terrorists have often used mosques here as a place of refuge and networking. It is a fact that many Imam's in this country have used their freedom of speech to preach violence against the US government. I respect their right to free speech, but I don't have to like it.
Joe, as for Muslim leaders in this country preaching violence, where? Assuming this is true where is it different than any other group speaking out against the govt?
Not once have I seen a mainstream US Muslim group issue a condemnation of the perversion of Islam to justify terrorism. I find this troubling.
As I've said show me their nat'l voice? They have none. If they want to be Americans, then they need to act like it. They are Americans! The Muslims i know are as American as you or I. You wouldn't know they are Muslims unless they told you. Which considering the anti-Islamic backlash in this country, is unlikely.
In prior generations waves of immigrants came to this country and made an effort to learn the language and embrace our culture while preserving and cherishing aspects of their own heritage. I am afraid that is not so much the case in this generation of immigrants, Muslims or otherwise, and I think it is at the heart of many growing problems in this country. This is more an Hispanic issue. The Muslims in the demographic wouldn't move the population counter a micron. Going back to the my personal experience, the Muslims embrace american culture, and language, want to fit in and work their butts off. They are very successful. They also hold onto their own cultures and of course their religion.
Want to see a glimpse of the future if we don't address this issue head-on? Take a look at France the last few years....Yeah, first they try to get Lance and then they file bogus charges against Floyd. Freaking frogs! On point, the future is a scary place. With the hispanic immigrants pouring in, getting voting rights, our way of life, one culture, one langauge, may not survive.
[/quote]
Whommit and Bond Guy are freaking blind idiots. I’m done discussing this with them. Might as well try to reason with my cat.
You and I were discussing something?
Gee, I didn't know.
Next time, try saying "Whomit" when you're discussing with me.
Joe, as for Muslim leaders in this country preaching violence, where? Assuming this is true where is it different than any other group speaking out against the govt?
Is urging that my parents be killed speaking out against the government?
In your frenzy to apologize for the gutter "religion" you paint yourself as a fool.
[quote=Whomitmayconcer]
Joe,
"Not once have I seen a mainstream US Muslim group issue a condemnation of the perversion of Islam to justify terrorism.
And how often do we hear of Jews calling for the abolishion of Israel? [/quote]
Astounding. Just when it seemed you couldn't become any more unhinged, you liken the refusal to condemn terrorism with the refusal to call for the abolision of Israel. Yeah, there very much the same things...
Absa-friggin'-lutley amazing...
[quote=Whomitmayconcer][quote=anonymous]
The 9/11 terrorist hold the record for killing the most amercans in a terrorist act. Do you know who held that dubious record before 9/11. Timothy McVeigh. White boy american. Yet no outcry to string up white trash?
He's one White boy american trash. He wasn't joined by 17 other White boy american trash while the rest of the White boy american trash applauded their actions or refused to speak out against their actions.
There was certainly an outcry to string up McVeigh and there would have been an outcry to string up any group that supported his actions.
[/quote]
That's not really true. You seem to forget the "Militia" movement that decried Bush's "New World Order" and advocated overthrow of the government. [/quote]
Yeah, all, what, three of them. Got any quotes of them calling for the overthrow of the government? Do they number any greater than the loons on the left who want the same thing?
[quote=Whomitmayconcer]
They applauded McVeigh (a retired military man)!
[/quote]
McVeigh was not "retired" (he served an enlistment, as did Lee Harvey Oswald, in another service), just like no one "bought" the Army. You're a profoundly foolish and ill-informed person.
I was told there was no such thing as an ex-military man, I'm just trying to keep up with the jibberish you folks jabber away in.
Your pedantic dependence on semantics aside, do you have anything to contribute perfesser Goldfish?
You go on ahead and Google Aryan Nation or Montana Militia (here, I did it for you http://www.militiaofmontana.com/) and just go on in there and see if they represent your POV. See if their definition of Patriotism, and yours and Joe's are all aligned.
As was true with the Fascists looking to "Spend half my fortune to save the other half" the militias will say they are "defending the Constitution", but their aim is really to replace it.
I know Mikebutler222, you have a problem remembering things that happened more than twenty minutes ago, so do I but if I remember, I'll be back twenty minutes from now to remind you of right now.