Why are you still with MSSB or MER?

64 replies [Last post]
Stifel Nation's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-07-05

If you're doing between $400k and $500k a year, why haven't you left yet? They decided not to pay you to stay, they continue to decrease your payout, they find ways to not pay you on business; i.e. small households or trades and they continue to increase the fees they charge your clients. All this and you get the luxury of defending their name to your clients.

I'm just curious.   

burtonfinancial1's picture
Joined: 2008-09-30

Why are you at a wirehouse at all may be the best question?  This article from "OnWallStreet.com" is pretty on targetWirehouses Losing Assets and Advisors
$800 billion of client assets in play
By Lee Conrad
September 10, 2009

Wirehouses are projected to lose $188 billion in client assets this year due
to advisor migration, according to a new report from Cerulli Associates. And
those losses are expected to continue over the longer term as well.The
channel’s market share of assets under management will be at 40.7% by 2012, down
from 47% as of year-end 2008, according to the report. Wirehouses will still
dominate the market, but the downward trend will continue as more advisors seek
out the independent channel, according to the Cerulli’s report entitled,
“Advisor Migration: The Changing Landscape of Retail Distribution.”Scott
Smith, the analyst who wrote the report, said the main driver behind these moves
is brand erosion of the wirehouses. “There’s a lot of investor dissent [at the
wirehouses]. Some advisors told me that their clients said ‘What took so long?’
when they moved.”At the same time, the independent channel, which
includes independent broker-dealers, registered investment advisor firms and
dually-registered advisors, are gaining market share. The independents will
nearly match wirehouses’ market footprint by 2012, with a 39.3% market share of
assets under management, the report said.This year’s decline is just
part of the industry’s overall advisor migration that will put $800 billion of
client assets in play as advisors move from job to job.For wirehouses,
the diminution of headcount will be significant. By 2012 they will account for
13.7% of the job market, down from 20% as of the end of 2008, the report
predicted. But that may not be all bad news. “While this represents a
significant loss, we expect the wirehouse advisor of the future will be
relatively more productive, resulting in a highly effective and profitable sales
force," says Smith.For instance, the report cited the joint venture of
Morgan Stanley Smith Barney as being in an “enviable position of being able to
select top talent from two skilled organizations.” The firm will be able to
capitalize on a position as a “pure play” for wealth management-focused
advisors, the report said.However, the picture isn’t quite as rosy for a
couple of its competitors. The report said Bank of America’s controversial
purchase of Merrill Lynch could threaten the historic dominance of Merrill’s
sales force. The report also stated that there is a concern about UBS among both
advisors and product manufacturers about how the corporate ownership of that
firm will play out over the next several years.  Overall, Smith viewed
the report’s findings as a “slow erosion” of the power of the wirehouses.

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

Stifel Nation wrote:If you're doing between $400k and $500k a year, I'm just curious.   
 
 
 
 
You make a great point.  
Stifel Nation is a great place for peanut producers.
 

Squash1's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-11-19

I love articles talking about how indy is going to over take wirehouses... Where do you think all the indys came from? Most of them got a start at a wire. Most of the big producers(no $600K doesn't count) are still there..

Lex123's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-10-26

If you're doing 400-500k after 10+ years the question isn't why haven't you left MSSB or MER it's why haven't you left the business?  There has to be something you're good at.

Apollo 13's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-02-27

Of course the majority came from wirehouses. In the old days the wirehouses provided immediate name recognition and some training. These days who wants the name recognition of the old wirehouses? The advisor spends half the day explaining to their clients why they are still associated with their firm.
Don't get me wrong, the current wirehouses still have an attraction for the advisors who are scared or to lazy to make the move. How can you call yourself a "financial advisor" when you have decided to allow your firm to keep the lion's share of your gross? The world can only handle so many leaders. It's OK that you would prefer to be a follower since the world needs its share of people (sheep) who just follow the herd.

   

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

Apollo 13 wrote: The world can only handle so many leaders. It's OK that you would prefer to be a follower since the world needs its share of people (sheep) who just follow the herd.

   

The 400-500k Stifel Nation leaders?    funny

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

Again, SN makes some great points and nothing really has changed since i started in 1981.   Regionals and Indy provide a great place for smaller producers to make a living.   
Its a great little niche.    Its not a bad thing and guys can feel good about themselves doing these low numbers.

onward&upward's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-09-03

Indie firms, like the one I found, are willing to give newbies, and smaller producers a place to learn and grow.  The wire houses don't want us simply because we don't make "them" enough money.
At the end of the day, I don't want a firm that's going to penalize me for not being a huge producer.  I just want to take care of my clients.  Not worry about when the next time I'm going to lose 10 pounds of ass for not hitting sales goals and quotas.

Stifel Nation's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-07-05

My Stifel office has 2 $1MM+ producers out of 6. Keep watching us grow. Yes, we are a GREAT place for $500K, but we're increasing our $1MM+ advisor force monthly.

Every firm has it's knocks, but over the last two years our stock price has gone up 55%, we won the Starmine award for earnings accuracy and stock selection (no other firm has one both in one year), and we were named in Fortune 100's list of fastest growing companies.

My last two years at MS watched my stock go from $70 to $29, after going down to $6, fines in the billions for auction rate securities, TARP money, staff reductions, decreasing payouts constant changes in Senior Management.

All facts, not my opinion.

burtonfinancial1's picture
Joined: 2008-09-30

Stifel Nation... maybe you should change the title of your thread to: "Why is everyone not at Stifel".... dude.. we get it.. Stifel rocks the free world and we're all blind for not seeing ourselves there right now 

Stifel Nation's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-07-05

I'm down with that. New topic. "Why aren't you at Stifel?

tqspygame's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-01-24

Stifel Nation wrote: My Stifel office has 2 $1MM+ producers out of 6. Keep watching us grow. Yes, we are a GREAT place for $500K, but we're increasing our $1MM+ advisor force monthly.

Every firm has it's knocks, but over the last two years our stock price has gone up 55%, we won the Starmine award for earnings accuracy and stock selection (no other firm has one both in one year), and we were named in Fortune 100's list of fastest growing companies.

My last two years at MS watched my stock go from $70 to $29, after going down to $6, fines in the billions for auction rate securities, TARP money, staff reductions, decreasing payouts constant changes in Senior Management.

All facts, not my opinion.

Do regionals, like Stifel, hire newbies?

Stifel Nation's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-07-05

tqspygame wrote: Stifel Nation wrote: My Stifel office has 2 $1MM+ producers out of 6. Keep watching us grow. Yes, we are a GREAT place for $500K, but we're increasing our $1MM+ advisor force monthly.

Every firm has it's knocks, but over the last two years our stock price has gone up 55%, we won the Starmine award for earnings accuracy and stock selection (no other firm has one both in one year), and we were named in Fortune 100's list of fastest growing companies.

My last two years at MS watched my stock go from $70 to $29, after going down to $6, fines in the billions for auction rate securities, TARP money, staff reductions, decreasing payouts constant changes in Senior Management.

All facts, not my opinion.

Do regionals, like Stifel, hire newbies?

Squash1's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-11-19

That looks like a no..

Stifel Nation's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-07-05

Stifel Nation wrote: tqspygame wrote: Stifel Nation wrote: My Stifel office has 2 $1MM+ producers out of 6. Keep watching us grow. Yes, we are a GREAT place for $500K, but we're increasing our $1MM+ advisor force monthly.

Every firm has it's knocks, but over the last two years our stock price has gone up 55%, we won the Starmine award for earnings accuracy and stock selection (no other firm has one both in one year), and we were named in Fortune 100's list of fastest growing companies.

My last two years at MS watched my stock go from $70 to $29, after going down to $6, fines in the billions for auction rate securities, TARP money, staff reductions, decreasing payouts constant changes in Senior Management.

All facts, not my opinion.

Do regionals, like Stifel, hire newbies?

Strange, it told me I have responded too many times and it wouldn't post my response. Most Regionals have a training program, but they do not hire very many trainees a year. Stifel hires about 50 - 75 trainees a year.

Squash1's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-11-19

So the only way they grow is by aquiring or underperforming wire guys(not a crack. honestly curious)

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

SN

more importantly

why the f&^% is Joe B so GD bearish?

In the 90's   he thought nasdaq was going to 100,000

burtonfinancial1's picture
Joined: 2008-09-30

Pretty much.. call any AMP manager.. they'll have 10 canned stories for you about the 'big' wirehouse broker they just moved over.  True.. but yes, they're growing because they're recruiting hard, not because they're a great firm, brand, value, have excellent FAs, etc. But, they have $7B in cash.. did I tell you that?  Sorry for the sarcasm, AMP is not bad.. just not for everyone IMHO

Stifel Nation's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-07-05

To Squash's question. We're much more profitable on a $400,000 since we don't have layers and layers of management. So "underperforming" to a wirehouse is not the same to us.

To A B's question. I'm not sure why Joe B. is so negative, but he performed pretty well last year, so I'm sticking with him. It's been tough though since the market has had a strong rally.

Greenbacks's picture
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-21

Why are reps still with a wire?
 
Same reason some people work at Walmart and Wendy's they are not bright enough to run there own shop.
 
They also have no idea how to manage money on there own. They need to have someone hold there hand tell them what to do and how to do it.
 
Kiss up the BM and suck up to the big guy in the office and hope he drops a turd so they can jump on it.
 
         

onward&upward's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-09-03

Greenbacks,
I hope your communications with your clients are more professional than this post was.  Let me fix it for you...
 
Same reason some people work at Walmart and Wendy's. They are not bright enough to run THEIR own shop.
They also have no idea how to manage money on THEIR own.  They need to have someone hold THEIR hand...
 
Please learn the difference between there, their and they're and use them correctly.  You bash people for not being bright, yet make a basic, fundamental usage error not once, not twice, but THREE times!

onward&upward's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-09-03

Thanks for pointing that out.  I fixed it.  Even gave myself a black eye!
Still, point remains, a typo is a totally different animal than consistent misuse of a word.

Apollo 13's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-02-27

I am a little confused. Why is it a great little niche for advisors to receive the % of commish they deserve? Let's face it, you are either a low producing wirehouse producer trying to convince yourself that you are properly positioned or you are a suck ass producer who never created their own book. My guess is that you have never built a book, but just hung around and mowed your managers lawn to receive favors (accounts). Either way, you need to look down and see if you have any balls.
Your firm needs your kind, so just sit back and say baaaah!

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

onward,
My kids just left for Walmar.   
There going their to get they're new Taylor Swift CD.
There mom went also. There making me stay with they're new puppy.
I have to go now, he just crapped right over THEIR!
We will talk later.   They're will be time to finish this!

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

Apollo 13 wrote: I am a little confused. Why is it a great little niche for advisors to receive the % of commish they deserve? Let's face it, you are either a low producing wirehouse producer trying to convince yourself that you are properly positioned or you are a suck ass producer who never created their own book. My guess is that you have never built a book, but just hung around and mowed your managers lawn to receive favors (accounts). Either way, you need to look down and see if you have any balls.
Your firm needs your kind, so just sit back and say baaaah!

ouch.   wow,    pls stop.

(tool)   

skbroker's picture
Offline
Joined: 2007-06-16

Most Indy advisors are rejects from wire. Lpl average production is 200k. Lol

skbroker's picture
Offline
Joined: 2007-06-16

I guess lpl decided to pay for rent, marketing, software and other expenses. Good for you and don't be so sensitive. Sometimes Truth hurts.

skbroker's picture
Offline
Joined: 2007-06-16

We have another be patient.

Sportsfreakbob's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-08-24

I spent 10 years at a wire, and i met an awful lot of million dollar producers. I knew most of their stories. I had the pleasure of meeting exactly TWO (Yes, 2) who built their own book, no help, no inheriting, no mowing the BM;s lawn. The rest of them got lucky came from very well to do families, or some other such "road to success". Thats the only difference between the big guys and i'll say, 65% of the guys in the penalty box. The other 35% are just plain lazy. The smart ones, the 65%, went indy. The million dollar guys all just took the retention checks last year, and are now fully, dare i say it, OWNED! 

Moraen's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-01-22

skbroker wrote: I guess lpl decided to pay for rent, marketing, software and other expenses. Good for you and don't be so sensitive. Sometimes Truth hurts.

Now you are bragging about your company paying for things? What are you, a kept woman? "My man pays for my rent, my light beal, my softwaya.... hey hey lookie here, my man paid for deese um... ummm... padfolios!".

millionairemind's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-05

I dont't care who you are, that was funny

skbroker's picture
Offline
Joined: 2007-06-16

Another moronic response. Go back and read the post retard   

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

Sportsfreakbob wrote:

The rest of them got lucky

funny.    so wrong.    not much luck in this MF biz.    You sound bitter.

mnymker's picture
Offline
Joined: 2007-04-24

Why do the indie's always try to convince everyone how great the experience is?  Who are you really talking too....your wives, your kids, or yourself?  One would think if you were really making money you might shut your mouth.
 
Instead you are trolling every chamber of commerce and rotary function with a stack of amateur looking business cards, that your wife had to proof read, for you next index annuity client.  You are right up there with the State Farm guy.  Good job.  That is branding for you.
 
Branding you know the thing that Life coach and Marketing person you hired because business sucks said you needed.  Oh wait,  you just left a branded firm to start "bottom of the barrell"  financial management.
 
We here in the wirehouses are not trying to convince you to comeback.. thanks for the assets.  That is the way this business has worked for decades.  Those that don't make it leave.  To the victor go the spoils. 
 
 
 

Moraen's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-01-22

mnymker wrote: Why do the indie's always try to convince everyone how great the experience is?  Who are you really talking too....your wives, your kids, or yourself?  One would think if you were really making money you might shut your mouth.
 
Instead you are trolling every chamber of commerce and rotary function with a stack of amateur looking business cards, that your wife had to proof read, for you next index annuity client.  You are right up there with the State Farm guy.  Good job.  That is branding for you.
 
Branding you know the thing that Life coach and Marketing person you hired because business sucks said you needed.  Oh wait,  you just left a branded firm to start "bottom of the barrell"  financial management.
 
We here in the wirehouses are not trying to convince you to comeback.. thanks for the assets.  That is the way this business has worked for decades.  Those that don't make it leave.  To the victor go the spoils. 
 
 
 

Isn't that your branch manager calling and wondering why you are on the Internet? Better go and polish his shoes.

Greenbacks's picture
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-21

Let them stay at the wires they will be gone in six months to a year any way.
 
At this point it is kind of like seeing a Obama bumper sticker on a car, you say to yourself what where they thinking!   

army13A's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-03-21

mnymker wrote:Why do the indie's always try to convince everyone how great the experience is?  Who are you really talking too....your wives, your kids, or yourself?  One would think if you were really making money you might shut your mouth.
 
Instead you are trolling every chamber of commerce and rotary function with a stack of amateur looking business cards, that your wife had to proof read, for you next index annuity client.  You are right up there with the State Farm guy.  Good job.  That is branding for you.
 
Branding you know the thing that Life coach and Marketing person you hired because business sucks said you needed.  Oh wait,  you just left a branded firm to start "bottom of the barrell"  financial management.
 
We here in the wirehouses are not trying to convince you to comeback.. thanks for the assets.  That is the way this business has worked for decades.  Those that don't make it leave.  To the victor go the spoils. 
 
 
 
 
I don't think anyone was making the comment that "Indy is better than  . . ."  I think people are trying to say that if you can produce $400K-500K at the wirehouse, why not go to the indy side and double your take home pay (even more if you play taxes correctly)? I totally understand individuals going to a bank brokerage because of the referral platform but if you're cold calling anyway, why not get paid more to close accounts?  I have buddies at ING in NY who are at 85% payouts and the only expense they have is E&O, which is like $100/month. 
 
By the way, commas are your friend. 

Sportsfreakbob's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-08-24

I am not and never did say, that the indie platform is better. Its better for some people. Not for everyone. The Senior managers at MSSB is telling their Branch Managers that Merrill is no longer their biggest thread - the indie channel is. Of course guys like NNMKER wouldnt know that, because theirr managers never tell them the truth.The fact is the Indie platform has gained a lot of traction. But its not for everyone.  Thats all I'm saying.

Sportsfreakbob's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-08-24

mnymker wrote:Why do the indie's always try to convince everyone how great the experience is?  Who are you really talking too....your wives, your kids, or yourself?  One would think if you were really making money you might shut your mouth.
 
Instead you are trolling every chamber of commerce and rotary function with a stack of amateur looking business cards, that your wife had to proof read, for you next index annuity client.  You are right up there with the State Farm guy.  Good job.  That is branding for you.
 
Branding you know the thing that Life coach and Marketing person you hired because business sucks said you needed.  Oh wait,  you just left a branded firm to start "bottom of the barrell"  financial management.
 
We here in the wirehouses are not trying to convince you to comeback.. thanks for the assets.  That is the way this business has worked for decades.  Those that don't make it leave.  To the victor go the spoils.    
 CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!You win the award for 2009 Most Assenine Post!What a crock of sh*t.I was at a wire for 10 years, and was 1st and 2nd quintile every month of those 10 years until the last two, when i made the mistake of going into management. I can assure you that you are so far off the freakin mark that its not funny. You are one of the big swingin d***s that convinced me that management was the wrong place, and for me at least, so was the wire. I dont need to compete with anyone but myself. And by the way, you prove my point about most Million $ producers getting lucky. You prove it with your "thanks for the assets" comment. Thats your business plan schmuck. Hang out till everyone else leaves. BTW you didnt get mine, 95% came with me.Anyway, congrats again on the award! I've been on these boards for quite a while and i;ve seen a lot, and i never laughed so hard at a post that wasnt meant to be a joke.

Sportsfreakbob's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-08-24

A b wrote: Sportsfreakbob wrote:

The rest of them got lucky

funny.    so wrong.    not much luck in this MF biz.    You sound bitter.

You sound clueless

Popeye $'s picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-30

Greenbacks wrote:Why are reps still with a wire?
 
Same reason some people work at Walmart and Wendy's they are not bright enough to run there own shop.
 
They also have no idea how to manage money on there own. They need to have someone hold there hand tell them what to do and how to do it.
 
Kiss up the BM and suck up to the big guy in the office and hope he drops a turd so they can jump on it.

          Congratulations, you are independent and happy.  What I don't understand is all your animosity towards the wire houses and the wire reps?Where did all the bitterness come from? Were you fired by one of these firms? Or, is the bitterness deeper seeded in your life?Maybe your mother should have come down off the pole more often and hugged you.

workinhard's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-08-21

This is all pretty crazy.  I started at MSSB yesterday and I have heard NOTHING about assets being passed on to me or anyone else as of yet.  Does this happen often?  Are there branches that don't do it at all?

mnymker's picture
Offline
Joined: 2007-04-24

Wow....the angry from the indie crowd.  You guys are so uptight!  Why is it you guys always mention sucking up to managers and so on?  I quite frankly have never really had much interaction with either the good or bad managers that have come along.  They have never been part of my business.  Maybe you think you were mistreated....this can be a tough business but failure is nothing to take personally.  Have fun when you go to work.  This kind of anger has to manifest itself to your clients.  Spend some time in self reflection.  Maybe take one of those fly by night annuity company trips to Sedona and find a vortex or two. 
 
Again I say who are you trying to convince?  Stay where you are!  I promise you are not my competition.  We do not want you back.  Stay with the golf shirts and tjmax slacks and spew how great it is to be independent.  You look real professional.  Keep up the good work.
 
As to the assets...i have 136mm and maybe 10mm came from you guys leaving.  thats ok..i will take them.   And again thank you

KensLoveChild's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-03-11

Going indie really sux.  *shhhh* don't tell the wire guys.Oh crap, 11:00, time to hit the links.

Stifel Nation's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-07-05

mnymker wrote: Wow....the angry from the indie crowd.  You guys are so uptight!  Why is it you guys always mention sucking up to managers and so on?  I quite frankly have never really had much interaction with either the good or bad managers that have come along.  They have never been part of my business.  Maybe you think you were mistreated....this can be a tough business but failure is nothing to take personally.  Have fun when you go to work.  This kind of anger has to manifest itself to your clients.  Spend some time in self reflection.  Maybe take one of those fly by night annuity company trips to Sedona and find a vortex or two. 
 
Again I say who are you trying to convince?  Stay where you are!  I promise you are not my competition.  We do not want you back.  Stay with the golf shirts and tjmax slacks and spew how great it is to be independent.  You look real professional.  Keep up the good work.
 
As to the assets...i have 136mm and maybe 10mm came from you guys leaving.  thats ok..i will take them.   And again thank you

I was pretty involved in the P&L of a wirehouse firm. Did you know almost 5% of your comp goes to pay for those "good or bad managers that have come along and have never been a part of your business." Seems somewhat silly to pay 5% for something that does nothing for you.

Registered Rep just posted an article regarding a Cerulli Report that states wirehouses will see a net loss of $188 billion in assets. Wirehouse market share will drop to 40% by the end of 2012 from 47% in 2008. Firms pay $12,000 to read that report, so I think Cerulli is a trusted source. I'm a regional guy, but we're growing just as fast as the Indy's. If your $136mm represents 47% of what's out there, that means there's $289mm total, or $153mm you don't have. If Indy's and Regionals take you down to 40% over the next couple of years, you'll have roughly $116mm.

I think that's a big enough number to take this seriously.

Omar's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-03-19

Indy: You own
 
Wire: You're owned
 
Take your pick.

KensLoveChild's picture
Offline
Joined: 2009-03-11

Your old ML office got a new coffee maker??!  Wait till Ken hears about THAT!  He'll put an end to such frivolous expenditures in no time.

Sportsfreakbob's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-08-24

mlgone wrote:wirehouse tools............................
 
I was at a wire, still have friends there but these tools posting here saying "thanks for the assets" was represented a lot in my branch.
 
Out of 82 advisors in my branch I could honestly look at maybe 1 who built his own book.  The rest wait until the assets get passed to the outside offices. 
 
What a jokeTHANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sportsfreakbob's picture
Offline
Joined: 2008-08-24

mnymker wrote: 
As to the assets...i have 136mm and maybe 10mm came from you guys leaving.  thats ok..i will take them.   And again thank youBut be honest - your point isn't that you only have $10MM in inherited assets - your pointis that you have $136MM. Like i said, another big swingin d*** from the wire's.Look, i am not and would not say that Indie is for everyone - I made the personal decision that it is for me - i just take exception when some BSD from a wire decides to come on here and make assenine comments about golf shirts and TJ Maxx slacks. Please clarify for me MNYMKR, how you come to the conclusion that all indies are not professional. Just an FYI, i got home tonight at 7PM, and the first thing i did when i got home, was take off my cufflinks. There, feel better now? You are the kind of guy I really love to hate. I cant wait till your wire fixes your grid to reflect the fact that you are a bank employee now.But again, that comment is directed only towards you - i dont make generalizations about groups of people based on where they work or the lifestyle they choose.BSD

A b's picture
A b
Offline
Joined: 2009-06-04

Sportsfreakbob wrote:
A b wrote: Sportsfreakbob wrote:

The rest of them got lucky

funny.    so wrong.    not much luck in this MF biz.    You sound bitter.

You sound clueless

Not much luck in this biz, sport freak.

The only long term big producers Ive seem that I thought had it handed to them was a couple dad-son teams.
Inherited accounts are bonuses for not taking a deal. No one get so many to build a million dollar book.
"family money"    Ive never seen any broker with so much family money they can do over a mil. im sure there are some. but rare.

aint luck.     you just sound pissed cause you failed and bolted
   

Please or Register to post comments.

Industry Newsletters
Careers Category Sponsor Links

Sponsored Introduction Continue on to (or wait seconds) ×