Large Cloud

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Bamzor's picture
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joedabrkr wrote:
Bamzor wrote:

BTW ..A large cloud formation is building in our legal system on EIA's. Becareful.
Care to elaborate on that "large cloud" a little bit for us?  Got links?

Joe, Personally I shake my head when I see these come across my desk.  Anyway if you didn't know that a Large Cloud front is approaching it is starting in Minnesota, Hawiaii, and California.
Allianz is Putnam.
Here are a few links:
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70115/FREE/70112020/-1/INIssueAlert04
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70226/FREE/70226008
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0311/NEWS/703110387

troll's picture
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Bamzor wrote:joedabrkr wrote: Bamzor wrote:
BTW ..A large cloud formation is building in our legal system on EIA's. Becareful.
Care to elaborate on that "large cloud" a little bit for us?  Got links?
Joe, Personally I shake my head when I see these come across my desk.  Anyway if you didn't know that a Large Cloud front is approaching it is starting in Minnesota, Hawiaii, and California.
Allianz is Putnam.
Here are a few links:
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70115/FREE/70112020/-1/INIssueAlert04
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70226/FREE/70226008
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0311/NEWS/703110387I hear ya.  I've never done a single EIA and don't intend to in the future.  VA's are fine by me but the index products are just a little too much of a "black box" for me to be comfortable.

babbling looney's picture
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Bamzor wrote:joedabrkr wrote: Bamzor wrote:
BTW ..A large cloud formation is building in our legal system on EIA's. Becareful.
Care to elaborate on that "large cloud" a little bit for us?  Got links?
Joe, Personally I shake my head when I see these come across my desk.  Anyway if you didn't know that a Large Cloud front is approaching it is starting in Minnesota, Hawiaii, and California.
Allianz is Putnam.
Here are a few links:
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70115/FREE/70112020/-1/INIssueAlert04
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70226/FREE/70226008
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0311/NEWS/703110387

About time!!  I have some clients who where hoodwinked into putting about 825K of their pooled profit sharing plan into these equity indexed bonus annuities.  The company is the owner and the principles of the company (2 people) are the annuitants on the two contracts.  The annuitants are about 10 years to being 59 1/2.  The were lured with the same song and dance.  10% bonus, can't lose in a down market etc.  They were NOT fully apprised of the 15 year surrender period, that they had to annuitize to get the 10% bonus and that the product has a mere 5% annual liquidity/free withdrawal feature.
This is a pooled plan and when employees retire, as will happen soon, the withdrawal required will be more than the free amount.  Fortunately, they have an additional amount that is with me in liquid stock/bond/etf and mutual fund investments. They don't want to withdraw from these, but will be forced to.   They wrote letters to the Allianz company complaining.  The agent who sold them the annuities is no longer at the same B/D....gee I wonder why?  The response from the company.....tough titty, you should have read the contract.  I suggested they have their attorney draft a forceful letter. 
Oh, and btw. The agent also transferred some large amounts of their personal IRA's into the same EIA contracts.   What a guy!!  I figure he made at least 90K in commissions. 
Our only solution is to take the free withdrawal each year, transferring it into their other qualified plan to avoid early withdrawal penalites and gain more liquidity. 

troll's picture
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Wow those Phillip Roy guys are seriously cheesy....

EDJ4now's picture
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I would love to see these EIA salesmen lined up against the wall and shot, but I am afraid that we may have an Eliot Spitzer style backlash against VA's. 
That is what happened with mutual funds, a couple of jacka---es got greedy, and all of us get punished as a result.

troll's picture
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babbling looney wrote:Bamzor wrote:joedabrkr wrote: Bamzor wrote:
BTW ..A large cloud formation is building in our legal system on EIA's. Becareful.
Care to elaborate on that "large cloud" a little bit for us?  Got links?
Joe, Personally I shake my head when I see these come across my desk.  Anyway if you didn't know that a Large Cloud front is approaching it is starting in Minnesota, Hawiaii, and California.
Allianz is Putnam.
Here are a few links:
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70115/FREE/70112020/-1/INIssueAlert04
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200 70226/FREE/70226008
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0311/NEWS/703110387

About time!!  I have some clients who where hoodwinked into putting about 825K of their pooled profit sharing plan into these equity indexed bonus annuities.  The company is the owner and the principles of the company (2 people) are the annuitants on the two contracts.  The annuitants are about 10 years to being 59 1/2.  The were lured with the same song and dance.  10% bonus, can't lose in a down market etc.  They were NOT fully apprised of the 15 year surrender period, that they had to annuitize to get the 10% bonus and that the product has a mere 5% annual liquidity/free withdrawal feature.
This is a pooled plan and when employees retire, as will happen soon, the withdrawal required will be more than the free amount.  Fortunately, they have an additional amount that is with me in liquid stock/bond/etf and mutual fund investments. They don't want to withdraw from these, but will be forced to.   They wrote letters to the Allianz company complaining.  The agent who sold them the annuities is no longer at the same B/D....gee I wonder why?  The response from the company.....tough titty, you should have read the contract.  I suggested they have their attorney draft a forceful letter. 
Oh, and btw. The agent also transferred some large amounts of their personal IRA's into the same EIA contracts.   What a guy!!  I figure he made at least 90K in commissions. 
Our only solution is to take the free withdrawal each year, transferring it into their other qualified plan to avoid early withdrawal penalites and gain more liquidity. 

Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. If you had been doing a great job, they wouldn't have made a move without consulting you first. The commission was $82,500, FYI.

babbling looney's picture
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Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. If you had been doing a great job, they wouldn't have made a move without consulting you first. The commission was $82,500, FYI.
1. They weren't my customers at the time they did the annuities.
2. They moved everything to me from this and other B/D after their accountant hit the ceiling over this and recommended they change.  I now have their personal, various businesses and childrens accounts as well as that of their employees who are retiring.  Well over 2 million.
3. The commission you are quoting is based on what? You don't know the full amount that they put into the indexed annuities. You don't even know which one they own.
I have no issue with their personal IRAs being in this account, however the pooled profit sharing plan should never ever have been put into something as illiquid as an EIA. The money in the pooled plan doesn't belong to the owners per se.  It belongs to the employees.
No sour grapes.  Just ire that this scumbag has put my clients into this position and that his illegal activites reflect badly on the rest of us in the industry who care more about our clients than he obviously did.
Since this is your first post, I assume that you are either one of our resident EIA pushers Dirk  with a new identity or a new EIA pusher.  Either way, the reason for the three internet links in the first post in this thread is people like you who think the above scenario is OK.

AllREIT's picture
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EDJ4now wrote:I would love to see these EIA salesmen lined up
against the wall and shot, but I am afraid that we may have an Eliot
Spitzer style backlash against VA's.

Why fight it? I love to show clients AEL's investor presentation. It basicly says anyone who buys our products is a sucker.

We invest the annuity proceeds at 6%, take a 200bp cut for ourselves, and then use the remainder to buy index call options.

Average annuity has a 15% surrender charge with 13 years average life on it.

Of course the 10-K does warn about the risks from potential NASD restrictions on EIA sales and various unpleased state AG's.

troll's picture
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babbling looney wrote:
Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me. If you had been doing a great job, they wouldn't have made a move without consulting you first. The commission was $82,500, FYI.
1. They weren't my customers at the time they did the annuities.
2. They moved everything to me from this and other B/D after their accountant hit the ceiling over this and recommended they change.  I now have their personal, various businesses and childrens accounts as well as that of their employees who are retiring.  Well over 2 million.
3. The commission you are quoting is based on what? You don't know the full amount that they put into the indexed annuities. You don't even know which one they own.
I have no issue with their personal IRAs being in this account, however the pooled profit sharing plan should never ever have been put into something as illiquid as an EIA. The money in the pooled plan doesn't belong to the owners per se.  It belongs to the employees.
No sour grapes.  Just ire that this scumbag has put my clients into this position and that his illegal activites reflect badly on the rest of us in the industry who care more about our clients than he obviously did.
Since this is your first post, I assume that you are either one of our resident EIA pushers Dirk  with a new identity or a new EIA pusher.  Either way, the reason for the three internet links in the first post in this thread is people like you who think the above scenario is OK.

What was done that was illegal? I do feel you pain, though. That's a lot of money to have tied up all safe from you, ain't it?

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What was done that was illegal? I do feel you pain, though. That's a lot of money to have tied up all safe from you, ain't it?
You are an idiot. It isn't exactly illegal but it was not in the client's best interest to have pooled profit sharing money put into an investment that they cannot use to disburse to their employees who are the owners of that money.   The difference between illegal and unethical seems to be lost on you.
When my client's employees, who are going retire in the near future, want to roll out their retirement funds the employer is going to have to take a huge penalty for early withdrawals.  This penalty is going to adversely impact the other employees who remain in the profit sharing plan by reducing the amount in the plan by the amount of the penalties.  The penalties are probably going to be over $15,000 this year.  Future years....more penalties.  As I said we are going to withdraw the free amount each year to try to get some liquidity for the future.
The guy who did this was/is a hack who didn't care at all about the needs of the clients....just his own pocket.  I'm sure that that does ring a bell with you since you seem to think this is just hunky dory.
You make me sick.

troll's picture
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babbling looney wrote:The difference between illegal and unethical seems to be lost on you.Babs this is the key distinction that EIA pushers and the "Certified Senior Advisor" scum in our industry either don't get or don't care about.If more people with our common licensure cared about this distinction we would be better off as an industry!

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babbling looney wrote:
What was done that was illegal? I do feel you pain, though. That's a lot of money to have tied up all safe from you, ain't it?
You are an idiot. It isn't exactly illegal but it was not in the client's best interest to have pooled profit sharing money put into an investment that they cannot use to disburse to their employees who are the owners of that money.   The difference between illegal and unethical seems to be lost on you.
When my client's employees, who are going retire in the near future, want to roll out their retirement funds the employer is going to have to take a huge penalty for early withdrawals.  This penalty is going to adversely impact the other employees who remain in the profit sharing plan by reducing the amount in the plan by the amount of the penalties.  The penalties are probably going to be over $15,000 this year.  Future years....more penalties.  As I said we are going to withdraw the free amount each year to try to get some liquidity for the future.
The guy who did this was/is a hack who didn't care at all about the needs of the clients....just his own pocket.  I'm sure that that does ring a bell with you since you seem to think this is just hunky dory.
You make me sick.

I'm suprised that I can impact your life to the extent that I have made you sick. You must have a pretty week personality. I got confused when you used the word "illegal." I thought you meant it to mean "illegal." In case you don't know...there's probably enough words in the English language for you to be able to say what you mean without having to substitute other words.

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The people selling EIA's in my town are dishonest.  They completely take advantage of the people that come for their "FREE" meal.  I believe this is very common and there should be some serious regulations on how and by whom these are sold.

troll's picture
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Bobby Hull wrote:babbling looney wrote:
What was done that was illegal? I do feel you pain, though. That's a lot of money to have tied up all safe from you, ain't it?
You are an idiot. It isn't exactly illegal but it was not in the client's best interest to have pooled profit sharing money put into an investment that they cannot use to disburse to their employees who are the owners of that money.   The difference between illegal and unethical seems to be lost on you.
When my client's employees, who are going retire in the near future, want to roll out their retirement funds the employer is going to have to take a huge penalty for early withdrawals.  This penalty is going to adversely impact the other employees who remain in the profit sharing plan by reducing the amount in the plan by the amount of the penalties.  The penalties are probably going to be over $15,000 this year.  Future years....more penalties.  As I said we are going to withdraw the free amount each year to try to get some liquidity for the future.
The guy who did this was/is a hack who didn't care at all about the needs of the clients....just his own pocket.  I'm sure that that does ring a bell with you since you seem to think this is just hunky dory.
You make me sick.

I'm suprised that I can impact your life to the extent that I have made you sick. You must have a pretty week personality. I got confused when you used the word "illegal." I thought you meant it to mean "illegal." In case you don't know...there's probably enough words in the English language for you to be able to say what you mean without having to substitute other words. Babs don't feed the trolls and maybe they'll go away....  (And yah I know I have no room to cast any stones.....)

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joedabrkr wrote:Babs this is the key distinction that EIA pushers and the "Certified Senior Advisor" scum in our industry either don't get or don't care about.If more people with our common licensure cared about this distinction we would be better off as an industry!
As a Chartered Senior Annuity Advisor, I resent your attempts at preventing me from feeding my family and making payments on my Porche Boxter.

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AllREIT wrote:joedabrkr wrote:Babs this is the key distinction that EIA pushers and the "Certified Senior Advisor" scum in our industry either don't get or don't care about.If more people with our common licensure cared about this distinction we would be better off as an industry!
As a Chartered Senior Annuity Advisor, I resent your attempts at preventing me from feeding my family and making payments on my Porche Boxter. Wow that sounds complicated.  How long did it take you to get that designation?

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joedabrkr wrote: AllREIT wrote:joedabrkr wrote:Babs this is the key distinction that EIA pushers and the "Certified Senior Advisor" scum in our industry either don't get or don't care about.If more people with our common licensure cared about this distinction we would be better off as an industry!
As a Chartered Senior Annuity Advisor, I resent your attempts at preventing me from feeding my family and making payments on my Porche Boxter.
Wow that sounds complicated.  How long did it take you to get that designation?
Funny you should ask.
Thanks to my specialised training, I am uniquely qualified to offer you a special bonus annuity. The company doesn't like me selling too many of these these, in fact they are going to stop offering them at the end of the month.
If you act now I'll be able to get you this annuity today, with a special 10% sign-up bonus.
With this annuity,you will be able to retire to a lifetime of secure income that can never be taken away from you.

troll's picture
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gad12 wrote:
The people selling EIA's in my town are dishonest.  They completely take advantage of the people that come for their "FREE" meal.  I believe this is very common and there should be some serious regulations on how and by whom these are sold.

We already have those regulations. They can only be sold by insurance agents. Didn't you know that?

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Bobby Hull wrote:gad12 wrote:
The people selling EIA's in my town are dishonest.  They completely take advantage of the people that come for their "FREE" meal.  I believe this is very common and there should be some serious regulations on how and by whom these are sold.

We already have those regulations. They can only be sold by insurance agents. Didn't you know that?

I guess you missed the word SERIOUS in my post.

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AllREIT wrote:joedabrkr wrote: AllREIT wrote:joedabrkr wrote:Babs this is the key distinction that EIA pushers and the "Certified Senior Advisor" scum in our industry either don't get or don't care about.If more people with our common licensure cared about this distinction we would be better off as an industry!
As a Chartered Senior Annuity Advisor, I resent your attempts at preventing me from feeding my family and making payments on my Porche Boxter.
Wow that sounds complicated.  How long did it take you to get that designation?
Funny you should ask.
Thanks to my specialised training, I am uniquely qualified to offer you a special bonus annuity. The company doesn't like me selling too many of these these, in fact they are going to stop offering them at the end of the month.
If you act now I'll be able to get you this annuity today, with a special 10% sign-up bonus.
With this annuity,you will be able to retire to a lifetime of secure income that can never be taken away from you.

You'd better watch or you will be Karuso'd ...CSI Miami Style. You can see him.....Pullin the shades down, tilting his mug....saying, "This isn't a well positioned investment.......This is a Crime Scene!"    Horatio to Eric, "What are those tracks leading to the dead CSA"   Eric, "It looks like the Centenarian who was sold an EIA ran her battery powered Scooter over the CSA's back."  Horatio, "Like I said this is a crime scene and the centenarian is the victim."   Eric, "Hector, I believe my mom and dad were sold an EIA 9 days and 23 hours ago."   Horatio, "Quick Eric,  Lets roll! "   Eric, "Where" Horatio, "To your mom and dads Eric, thats where the next crime scene will be if we don't hurry and stop it."    Next weeks episode, "Calleigh finds finger prints of a Registered Rep on an EIA contract.....Watch the drama unfold..!!"

troll's picture
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babbling looney wrote:
You are an idiot.
 
Yep, under every screen name he uses...

troll's picture
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AllREIT wrote:As a Chartered Senior Annuity Advisor, I resent your attempts at preventing me from feeding my family and making payments on my Porche Boxter.
 
 
 That's just how a CSAA would spell both of those words. Great job.

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One of my "clients" just transferred out into a John Hancock EIA. I could never get this guys to understand my process, and what I was trying to do to protect him. From almost day one I had the feeling that we were adversaries. Classic case of my taking on a client that I should never have taken on. I have had him allocated between 60 and 70% equities (ETF's and until a year ago, indiv stocks, with me running the portfolio for about 3 years. I think we averaged about 8% annual. It wasnt good enough
Anyway, since taking an early retirement, which is when he came to me as a referral with the rollover, he's been trying different things to make a living, most recently, selling LTC insurance. I actually had him come to some networking events, suggested he get connected to sell life ins as well, really tried to help him.
Recently, he calls me out of the blue, and asks me to liquidate the portfolios, as he is putting the $ into an EIA. Because of everything I had been thru, I didnt try to fight it, just said ok no prob, and liquidated. In a subsequent conversation, he tells me that the EIA is going to give him full upside, guarantees, with no downside, no surrender, and no cost. I got the paperwork, and sent him a check yesterday. Today I thought about it, and called him, just because I hate when I see people get f**cked by one of us. I carefully explained that I was not trying to convince him to come back, because my philosophy is that once someone decides to leave, I think its best that they do. But I wanted to help him. I recalled to him that he told me that the cost was zero, and the guarantee was there, no surrender, no nothing. ANd that was impossible. I offered pro bono to look at the EIA for him and analyze it before the money went in, just because I think the guy that sold it to him was hosing him.
The client tells me that noone sold it to him, he sold it to himself, because he is now doing annuities. What an idiot. His manager, or whoever, actually convinced him that he could get full upside, no downside, full liquidity and no cost. He tells me that he's thoruughly researched this and its true.
I just said good luck and hung up. Its really exasperating what people do to themsleves. This is why its so hard to prospect, the public is so jaded by this stuff.
What I am thinking now, is the next thing this genius does is go to the guy that referred him to me, and convinces him to take the money that I manage and put it into this free ride product! But I cant say anything pre-emptive, because I cant and wont talk to one client about another.
Anyway, just venting, so if you want to trash me, go ahead, bring it, everyones entitled to their opinion. 

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Pratoman, You didn't need this client anyway. Just print off the articles at the beginning or any others that are popping up weekly... just show them to the referral if it happens.
This reminds me I had an old IR buddy who had the same thing happen to him. This prospect had 950,000 in his 401 K. He talked to the IR and an CSA  EIA shammer. The dude obviously loved the American funds story, NAV and all. But he found out about the commission on the EIA and decide to study and take the insurance exam, bada bing 100,000 commission to himself.
 

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pratoman wrote:
One of my "clients" just transferred out into a John Hancock EIA. I could never get this guys to understand my process, and what I was trying to do to protect him. From almost day one I had the feeling that we were adversaries. Classic case of my taking on a client that I should never have taken on. I have had him allocated between 60 and 70% equities (ETF's and until a year ago, indiv stocks, with me running the portfolio for about 3 years. I think we averaged about 8% annual. It wasnt good enough
Anyway, since taking an early retirement, which is when he came to me as a referral with the rollover, he's been trying different things to make a living, most recently, selling LTC insurance. I actually had him come to some networking events, suggested he get connected to sell life ins as well, really tried to help him.
Recently, he calls me out of the blue, and asks me to liquidate the portfolios, as he is putting the $ into an EIA. Because of everything I had been thru, I didnt try to fight it, just said ok no prob, and liquidated. In a subsequent conversation, he tells me that the EIA is going to give him full upside, guarantees, with no downside, no surrender, and no cost. I got the paperwork, and sent him a check yesterday. Today I thought about it, and called him, just because I hate when I see people get f**cked by one of us. I carefully explained that I was not trying to convince him to come back, because my philosophy is that once someone decides to leave, I think its best that they do. But I wanted to help him. I recalled to him that he told me that the cost was zero, and the guarantee was there, no surrender, no nothing. ANd that was impossible. I offered pro bono to look at the EIA for him and analyze it before the money went in, just because I think the guy that sold it to him was hosing him.
The client tells me that noone sold it to him, he sold it to himself, because he is now doing annuities. What an idiot. His manager, or whoever, actually convinced him that he could get full upside, no downside, full liquidity and no cost. He tells me that he's thoruughly researched this and its true.
I just said good luck and hung up. Its really exasperating what people do to themsleves. This is why its so hard to prospect, the public is so jaded by this stuff.
What I am thinking now, is the next thing this genius does is go to the guy that referred him to me, and convinces him to take the money that I manage and put it into this free ride product! But I cant say anything pre-emptive, because I cant and wont talk to one client about another.
Anyway, just venting, so if you want to trash me, go ahead, bring it, everyones entitled to their opinion. 

He can average as little as you were making him without risk of loss in an EIA. Why should he stay with you?

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Bobby Hull wrote:
He can average as little as you were making him without risk of loss in an EIA. Why should he stay with you?

 
American Balanced Fund® (balanced fund)

Class A shares

Rates of Return*

 
Average Annual Total Returns

1 yr
3 yrs
5 yrs
10 yrs
Fund Lifetime

February 28, 2007 (most recent month-end)

NAV
10.02%
6.77%
7.60%
9.22%
11.93%

With sales charge
3.70%
4.69%
6.33%
8.57%
11.72%

December 31, 2006 (most recent quarter-end)

NAV
11.80%
7.89%
7.65%
9.69%
11.99%

With sales charge
5.36%
5.79%
6.38%
9.04%
11.78%
He blew away the The American Balanced fund thats also a 60/40.
You show me a EIA that will average 8% and is liquid. I will buy it. Do you sell these at best 5-6 %  rate of returns with no liquidity after 15 years which then you must annuitize to get that bonus that was paid.
 

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Actually, I sell one that has a 5 year surrender period. I tell people that they will probably make bethween 6% and 8%. It only pays me 5%, but it is such an easy sale to make that I make up for it in volume.

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I think that I'm one of the few people who doesn't sell EIA's, yet does not think that they are terrible products.    What I do think is that there is usually an issue with how they are sold.  Giving someone an expectation of 6-8% is a problem. 
EIA's are appropriate whenever the solution calls for a fixed annuity and someone is comfortable with the EIA's crediting method and the surrender charges and understands that they may get more or less than a traditional fixed annuity.
 "he tells me that the EIA is going to give him full upside, guarantees, with no downside, no surrender, and no cost."  Pratoman, my response would be, "Best of luck to you in your new career.  That EIA sounds like the greatest product ever.  Please read the contract from cover to cover and if it works how you understand, I have clients that I can send to you since my B/D gives me a hard time about EIA sales."

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anonymous wrote:
I think that I'm one of the few people who doesn't sell EIA's, yet does not think that they are terrible products.    What I do think is that there is usually an issue with how they are sold.  Giving someone an expectation of 6-8% is a problem. 
EIA's are appropriate whenever the solution calls for a fixed annuity and someone is comfortable with the EIA's crediting method and the surrender charges and understands that they may get more or less than a traditional fixed annuity.
 "he tells me that the EIA is going to give him full upside, guarantees, with no downside, no surrender, and no cost."  Pratoman, my response would be, "Best of luck to you in your new career.  That EIA sounds like the greatest product ever.  Please read the contract from cover to cover and if it works how you understand, I have clients that I can send to you since my B/D gives me a hard time about EIA sales."

Since you don't sell them, you're probably better off not making any comments. You could say something really silly without even knowing it.

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Bobby, I'm sure that I can count on you to tell me when I say something silly.  
 

troll's picture
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Thanks Bamzor, for both posts. You are correct, I am clearly, as I said in my first post, best off without the client.
While I beat the American Funds Balanced, that doesnt really matter much to me, outside of the fact that its fun to do that. What matters most is that I got the guy an 8% return, with 60% market exposure.
Bobby, I guess thats lost on you. I guess the fact that the guy is buying a product that he truly believes he has investigated and fully understood, which gives him full liquidity, no costs, full market upside and no downside, means, he did a smart thing leaving me.
You are an idiot.

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pratoman wrote:
Thanks Bamzor, for both posts. You are correct, I am clearly, as I said in my first post, best off without the client.
While I beat the American Funds Balanced, that doesnt really matter much to me, outside of the fact that its fun to do that. What matters most is that I got the guy an 8% return, with 60% market exposure.
Bobby, I guess thats lost on you. I guess the fact that the guy is buying a product that he truly believes he has investigated and fully understood, which gives him full liquidity, no costs, full market upside and no downside, means, he did a smart thing leaving me.
You are an idiot.

If it helps you to call me an idiot, help yourself. When this guy was presented with the EIA, why didn't he come to his trusted advisor (you) and ask your opinion? I might ba an idiot, but I'm the guy who steals business from guys like you.
On behalf of all rainmakers, thank you for doing a mediocre job and failing to develop your relationships with your clients. We couldn't do it without you.

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Bobby,
If you've been in the business for more than a week, you know that there are lots of folks who just dont get it, no matter how good a job you do educating them and managing expectations early on in the relationship. I thought I made it pretty clear in my initial post that this was the case here.
The other point I'd make, is that I'm glad you get off on being "the guy who steals business from guys like you", using EIA's. You make no reference to the fact that this guy was sold a bill of goods by someone in his organization, i.e. no downside, full upside, no cost.
If thats the way you guys steal business from guys like me, then more power to ya dude.
I get off on helping people who value my advice and are willing to pay me a REASONABLE price for it. Thats why I got this client referred to me in the first place.
Wish I had your conscience.

troll's picture
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pratoman wrote:
Bobby,
If you've been in the business for more than a week, you know that there are lots of folks who just dont get it, no matter how good a job you do educating them and managing expectations early on in the relationship. I thought I made it pretty clear in my initial post that this was the case here.
The other point I'd make, is that I'm glad you get off on being "the guy who steals business from guys like you", using EIA's. You make no reference to the fact that this guy was sold a bill of goods by someone in his organization, i.e. no downside, full upside, no cost.
If thats the way you guys steal business from guys like me, then more power to ya dude.
I get off on helping people who value my advice and are willing to pay me a REASONABLE price for it. Thats why I got this client referred to me in the first place.
Wish I had your conscience.

One thing that you're not considering is that the guy who sold your client an EIA may have told the complete truth, but the client is lying to you so he doesn't have to tell you the truth about why he left you. In other words, he's making it sound like the perfect investment because you would not blame him for moving. Remember...they lie to us way more than we lie to them.
I might also mention that you put him in that low performing American Fund MF. What the hell are you doing? Could you be more boring and void of creativity? If I were you, I'd take this as an opportunity to learn. If it's always gonna be the fault of the big, bad annuity salesman, you'll die on the vine.

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Bobby Hull wrote:pratoman wrote:
Bobby,
If you've been in the business for more than a week, you know that there are lots of folks who just dont get it, no matter how good a job you do educating them and managing expectations early on in the relationship. I thought I made it pretty clear in my initial post that this was the case here.
The other point I'd make, is that I'm glad you get off on being "the guy who steals business from guys like you", using EIA's. You make no reference to the fact that this guy was sold a bill of goods by someone in his organization, i.e. no downside, full upside, no cost.
If thats the way you guys steal business from guys like me, then more power to ya dude.
I get off on helping people who value my advice and are willing to pay me a REASONABLE price for it. Thats why I got this client referred to me in the first place.
Wish I had your conscience.

One thing that you're not considering is that the guy who sold your client an EIA may have told the complete truth, but the client is lying to you so he doesn't have to tell you the truth about why he left you. In other words, he's making it sound like the perfect investment because you would not blame him for moving. Remember...they lie to us way more than we lie to them.
I might also mention that you put him in that low performing American Fund MF. What the hell are you doing? Could you be more boring and void of creativity? If I were you, I'd take this as an opportunity to learn. If it's always gonna be the fault of the big, bad annuity salesman, you'll die on the vine.

Dear PantsGoBrown, er Troll, er, I mean Bobby,
This will be the last time I respond to you. I swear, I promise. After this, I'm going to let you have the last word!
If you look back at the posts on this thread (I believe its page 3) it was Bamzor, not I who brought up American Funds Balanced. He did so in the context of pointing out that I blew the doors off the fund. His words, not mine. In fact, I dont use that fund. In fact, I got the client the 8% 3 year annualized return with 60% equity exposure, by running a diversified portfolio of individual stocks and ETF's. So you should get your facts straight before responding.
Finally, it was not my intent to get into a pissing match with you or anyone else on this forum. I value this venue for the constructive ideas it allows most of us to share. Therefore, as far as this thread is concerned, I shall no longer respond to your drivel. Of course you will respond to this, because you cant help yourself. Won't you? And then, that will be the last word. You can have it.
I'd suggest everyone else ostracize you as well, but then you would just change your identity, one more time.
Best of luck to you with your efforts on EIA's
 

troll's picture
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Word.

goforbroke's picture
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One thing that you're not considering is that the guy who sold your client an EIA may have told the complete truth, but the client is lying to you so he doesn't have to tell you the truth about why he left you. In other words, he's making it sound like the perfect investment because you would not blame him for moving. Remember...they lie to us way more than we lie to them.
I might also mention that you put him in that low performing American Fund MF. What the hell are you doing? Could you be more boring and void of creativity? If I were you, I'd take this as an opportunity to learn. If it's always gonna be the fault of the big, bad annuity salesman, you'll die on the vine.
Good contribution to the topic with some constructive criticism.  Just difference of opinion and someone seems to be on the defensive.

troll's picture
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goforbroke wrote:
One thing that you're not considering is that the guy who sold your client an EIA may have told the complete truth, but the client is lying to you so he doesn't have to tell you the truth about why he left you. In other words, he's making it sound like the perfect investment because you would not blame him for moving. Remember...they lie to us way more than we lie to them.
I might also mention that you put him in that low performing American Fund MF. What the hell are you doing? Could you be more boring and void of creativity? If I were you, I'd take this as an opportunity to learn. If it's always gonna be the fault of the big, bad annuity salesman, you'll die on the vine.
Good contribution to the topic with some constructive criticism.  Just difference of opinion and someone seems to be on the defensive.

Defensive people never win. It must be tough losing an account to an EIA because you can't deliver. Poor little feller.

goforbroke's picture
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ok, now you've crossed the line to being obnoxious ("because you can't deliver") No wonder he has hostility towards u.

troll's picture
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 Goforbroke, you hit it on the head with your last post.
This forum would be more useful to all of us if we ignored the diatribe and focused on the constructive stuff that will help us all.

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