Jones to RJFS --THANKYOU!

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zacko's picture
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It's been several years since I have posted anything in this forum.   After recently talking with a 3 year Jones rep, I am once again inspired to come out of 'retirement' and share my thoughts.
I was formerly at Edward Jones, and a top producer there for some time.  I went independent with Raymond James and wanted to share some insight.  After ten plus years at Jones and six plus years at RJFS (can't believe how time flies), I can say that without a doubt, in virtually every available metric of comparison, being independent is such a better place to be.  I'm sure Jones has made a few tweaks over the years.  But, my guess is no matter how much makeup you try to put on the ugly girl--she is still...yes...an ugly girl.
 
As I sit in my office, looking back at how my business has evolved from Jones over the last six years, I can tell you this.  My production is up about 25% from my final year at Jones--even with a bear market.  My take home pay is up dramtically.   At jones, living off .25bps trails--lol... and 35% payouts, and here today/gone tomorrow bonuses, and paying for my postage stamps and 1% of my net for advertsing..etc...--just didn't add up.  Like most transaction oriented firms, you are like a hamster on wheel.  Just running and running--and getting nowhere.  You can only increase your revenue by bringing in new clients or by moving around money in existing client's accounts.  It was a continual search for available client funds.
 
Now, in comparison.  Slightly over half my revenue is fee driven.   It's nice to know I can take a week off and not have a measurable decline in production. I enjoy the benefits of having my own safe harbor retirement plan.  I enjoy the benefits of being my own boss and managing my business efiiciently.   RJFS is not a perfect firm--far from it.  It's just a much better firm than Edward Jones.  In fact, being independent is probably the best business decision I have ever made.  So--to those of you who spoke with me while I was at Jones "bleeding green" and drinking the proverbial kool-aid.  I just wanted to put it out there and say Thank you.  Thank you for helping me do the right thing for myself, my clients, and my business.  It's made a big difference in my life.
 
Cheers and Happy Early Thanksgiving!
 
ZACKO
 
 

uwec1986's picture
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Right on my brother!

BigCheese's picture
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Spiff-
 
You probably weren't around when Zacko started on these forums. Now here is an example of Jones rep who can quantify why its so much better being indy. Can't wait to hear your company response...
 
Zacko- my former monicker was footsoldier. It's nice to hear from you again. We actually talked on the phone a couple of times and all is very well on our end as well.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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uwec - you rear your ugly head for that?    
 
zacko - What, were you bored today?  Congrats on your success at RJ.   
 
foot - what would I need to give him a company response about?  I happy that he's happy.  I don't personally agree that Raymond James is a better firm than EDJ.  I do believe that he feels it is a better firm for him.  To each his own.   

uwec1986's picture
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Spif...I only posted so I could get emails on the thread but thanks for your comment.

zacko's picture
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Space,  Have you worked at RJFS or just Jones?

Shania Twain's picture
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uwec1986 wrote: Spif...I only posted so I could get emails on the thread but thanks for your comment.

wis-eau claire?

uwec1986's picture
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Yes....Eau Claire...1986 grad....Go Bluegolds!

BigCheese's picture
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Zack-
 
A point I have been making for eons is that Spiff only knows Jones. Has nothing else to compare and believes beyond any reasonable doubt that Jones is the best.
 
Spiff- Fairly accurate assessment?

Hey Kool-Aid's picture
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BigCheese wrote:Zack-
 
A point I have been making for eons is that Spiff only knows Jones. Has nothing else to compare and believes beyond any reasonable doubt that Jones is the best.
 
Spiff- Fairly accurate assessment?
 
Not that I need to speak for Spiff or anyone else for that matter...but I believe he has said over and over "he believes beyond any doubt that Jones is the best ....FOR HIM!"

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uwec1986 wrote: Yes....Eau Claire...1986 grad....Go Bluegolds!

Eau Claire freshman 1976
(dorm was 1078 Towers)   
I cant remember my phone number, why do i remember that?   
finished Madison

seems like it was 1576 now

BigCheese's picture
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HKA-
 
I have to wonder how anyone could contend that the firm they work for is the only for him, if they have nothing to compare. Seems fairly obvious to me and probably others that its virutally impossible to be impartial with such a limited view of the overall marketplace.

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How many sales pitches from how many brokerage firms does one need to hear to make an assumption of contentment? If you are going to base one's ability to make a judgement based solely on first hand experience, then only the most seasoned journeyman with possibly a dozen firms behind him could make an "accurate" decision.

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BigCheese wrote:HKA-
 
I have to wonder how anyone could contend that the firm they work for is the only for him, if they have nothing to compare. Seems fairly obvious to me and probably others that its virutally impossible to be impartial with such a limited view of the overall marketplace.
 
I'll give you an example...I have been in the business world for many years now, however, this industry is fairly new to me ( a few years in)...I know that at this point in my career, after doing extensive research...that Jones is a great place to work, particularly for a new FA...this model (EDJ)...suits a new advisor as well as a mega producer (IMHO).  However, I do believe it punishes the middle of the road guy, as you can be making 50k/trimester (profit) and only get a piddly bonus...the bonus kicks up after a certain number (not sure what that is yet).  Now, that being said...I know that when my assets/production hit a certain point...I will certainly look at my options at that time and consider Indy...however, at this time, Jones is certainly the best firm FOR ME. 
 
Now...i'm not saying that I'm correct, however, if it is truly how I feel it is good enough right now.  Of course, for some people, believe it or not, the culture of our firm, trumps the money issue....I am not one of those people.  So if Spiff, or anyone else says that it is best for them...I believe them....What if someone said,  Cheese, you never worked for a wire...or a bank...so if I say that would be best for you, you couldn't deny it......IMO that's silly...Indy is the best for you because that is what your experience/heart tells you. 
 
So all i'm saying is that whatever someone thinks is best for them at that time....is....whether technically there is something out there that may make you more money...or give you more products etc...see what i'm saying here??
 
 
 
 

Shania Twain's picture
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The firm you work for means something but, let me ask you this, what have you gotten in this business that you DIDNT get on your own?

no manager or firm has ever REALLY made a difference for my career.   The BEST you can expect is that they dont screw anything up.

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BigCheese wrote:Zack-
 
A point I have been making for eons is that Spiff only knows Jones. Has nothing else to compare and believes beyond any reasonable doubt that Jones is the best.
 
Spiff- Fairly accurate assessment?
 
Accurate assessment that I have worked only worked for Jones in this career.  I do believe that Jones is a wonderful company and beyond a reasonable doubt the best company for me.  For you and countless others, there are other best companies.      

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HKA-
 
Until you have worked for another firm, its all conjecture. You hope, assume, pray, I don't care what you want to call it, that the firm you are with is the best for you. If you couch it at the time, I can understand and even appreciate your point.
 
What I have been trying to get across for a long time is that when you have stepped outside the Jones culture/company, it is then that you can be impartial. You can truly assess whether the firm is appropriate for you long term. Hearing from a former top producer at Jones and now out 6 years with Ray Jay is giving a perspective that all of you ought to at the very least take into consideration.
 
In 1997 when I was hired by Jones I truly felt it was the last firm for me. 9 years later I left. It wasn't instantaneous, but over time I realized it wasn't the firm that I could see myelf retiring from. And now looking back after 3 complete years since, I am reminded with messages like Zacko earlier, that the path that I took like many others, was the best for me.
 
Again I will say this about Jones. A great place to learn the business.

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Wow Zacko, glad to see you back. You were a strong inspiration that pushed me over the edge to RJ (while I operated under a different handle). Everything you told me would happen has come true. Due to the decline and some short term expenses, my personal bottom line is only slightly better than it would have been at Jones, but my peace of mind has skyrocketed. Beyond that, the upside is swinging in my favor and I am about to get back into that 45-65% net net range before long. The thing about all of this Jones/Indy banter is that once you go Indy, outside of these forums you rarely look back. The forums give us an opportunity to express in writing how much better it actually can be than at Jones, and that is only understandable after you've left.Zacko you are a better man than me for having the discipline to leave this forum as long as you did. It is an addiction for me, even though the content has gotten very immature over the last two years. Seeing an old familiar name brings back a level of sophistication to this place.

Sportsfreakbob's picture
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Zacko, i don't recall seeing you on the boards back then, i have been on and off the boards for more than three years.
But your post was great. Maybe you can stick around and add some INTELLIGENT content to the forum, which lately has been overshadowed by nonsense.
 
I joined RJFS 6 months ago and am extremely happy. But its a short time to make a judgement, so it was encouraging to read your post.
No doubt for ME, the Indy model is the right model. It gives me control and allows me to live my life my way.

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It's good to see an old familiar broker like Zacko...I don't post often here anymore because the forums have deteriorated into a high school environment..."stop talking about me or I will out you". But I enjoyed your wizdom over the years & hope to see more of you around. Like you I joined RJFS  (2006) & have never looked back.  Its' the best move I ever made.
 
Agreed indy is not for everyone, I still have friends that require the "incubation" chamber that is Jones & they have no desire to want to leave the womb..so be it, to them they have it all & maybe in their world they do.

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BigCheese wrote:
HKA-
 
Until you have worked for another firm, its all conjecture. You hope, assume, pray, I don't care what you want to call it, that the firm you are with is the best for you. If you couch it at the time, I can understand and even appreciate your point.
 
What I have been trying to get across for a long time is that when you have stepped outside the Jones culture/company, it is then that you can be impartial. You can truly assess whether the firm is appropriate for you long term. Hearing from a former top producer at Jones and now out 6 years with Ray Jay is giving a perspective that all of you ought to at the very least take into consideration.
 
In 1997 when I was hired by Jones I truly felt it was the last firm for me. 9 years later I left. It wasn't instantaneous, but over time I realized it wasn't the firm that I could see myelf retiring from. And now looking back after 3 complete years since, I am reminded with messages like Zacko earlier, that the path that I took like many others, was the best for me.
 
Again I will say this about Jones. A great place to learn the business.

 
"when you have stepped outside the Jones culture/company, it is then that you can be impartial."
 
Please sell me on how this makes you impartial.  A new and additional perspective I will buy.  Impartial?  I think you are selling your usual bucket of crap.  I am not buying any but you might be able to sell some of it here.

rankstocks's picture
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welcome back my brother.....

Anonymous's picture
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your scared to say it

Spiff is an idoit

and Windy toooooo.

Ronnie Dobbs's picture
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BigCheese wrote: HKA-
 
I have to wonder how anyone could contend that the firm they work for is the only for him, if they have nothing to compare. Seems fairly obvious to me and probably others that its virutally impossible to be impartial with such a limited view of the overall marketplace.
Cheese, do you believe in god? I hope not, because you couldn't possibly believe that god is the best thing for you, unless you've been a satanist.

Anonymous's picture
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Ronnie Dobbs wrote: Cheese, do you believe in god? I hope not, because you couldn't possibly believe that god is the best thing for you, unless you've been a satanist.

I thought you quit me?   Go away idiot.......you are worse than spiff..

dumbass

Anonymous's picture
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u sick religious fool

u must be in the south

ur insane

zacko's picture
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Thank you for the kind words and it's nice to see a few familiar "faces" as well.  It also seems the more things change, the more they stay the same...or something like that.  I don't know how long I will stay--but I will share the following.
In retrospect, I really have no ill feelings towards Jones.  I probably SHOULD for the way they take advantage of the uneducated financial advisor, and pretend to be something that they are indeed far from.   Underneath the cultism of my decade long career at Jones I was provided some fine training, and in some ways I am appreciative of the time I spent there.  I made some friends, many of whom are now indy, that I still stay in touch with today.
 
Jones was very well paid for reveune I was able to generate.  Over my career, when you throw in revenue sharing, years with little or no bonus (I was doing between 650-750k at the time) and the office overhead I was sharing in the cost of--Jones took home close to 50% more money that I did.  That's not close to being fair.  I had heard of a few friends going independent, but naturally I was skeptical at first.  My skeptisim proved to be totally unfounded.
 
In fact, the debate of Jones vs Indy should have died a long time ago.  There should be no argument from anyone (except a newish IR--oh wait you are called FA's now)((just like RJFS)) that Jones is better.  Now, if your a two or three year FA with 15 million or even 20 million under management, there is no financial advantage to leaving.  At 30 million and up, the financial advantage really starts to show.  Quite frankly it's simple math that anyone on this board can do.  So beyond payout--what else is there?  Payout is more than enough for many of us...but look past it for just a moment.
 
What about technology?
Research?
Many more products?
A true ability to manage a fee based practice?
Owning your own business with a sucession plan?  Has Jones addressed this?
Being truly independent with no requirement to attend meetings or expectations to train your competition?
Tax advantages?  They are H U G E.  Too many to name.  And don't tell me "paybills" or some equivalent is just as good.  It's not even close.
 
How many of you at Jones are paying AMT? 
 
Funny that RJFS started deferred comp a year or two ago.  RJFS put more in my deferred comp than Jones did in my profit sharing..lol.
 
As a top producer, I also get trips.  And while they are better than the Jones trips with no mandatory meeting--I do also have to pay taxes on them.  Call that a wash and I think I'm being generous.
 
I honestly think most Jones FA's (still want to say IR's) are smart people.  I think they fall into two camps.
 
Camp 1:  The fearful.  They know it's "probably" better but they are comfortable and afraid of making the jump.  Maybe a point in time will come when they get pissed off at something that happens at Jones, then will they do it.  But for the most part, fear holds them back.
 
Camp 2:  The kool aid chugger.  Ya you know the type.  They are smart, organized, and do whatever Jones tells them as they believe it to be absolute gospel.  They feel they owe Jones for the fantastic opportunity they have been given.  They refuse to believe the fact that you make more money as an indy.  They think everything at Jones is the best, yet they have no other benchmark whatsoever to compare it to. 
 
There you have it!
 
 
ZACKO

uwec1986's picture
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Right on brother (that was for Spiff)!

zacko's picture
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The ball roller lives!

BigCheese's picture
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Y-
 
Check out item 2 of Zacko's comments. That's impartiality talking. Someone who has done it much longer than you, Spiff, B24 et.al., and gone somewhere else.
 
I know best firm for you now, I get it (how was the B pretty nice wasn't I)...

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Which one is item 2?  Are you talking about the research comment or the compensation comment? 
Just FYI - you can't claim impartiality if you are on one of the sides being discussed.  You can't say that Zacko is impartially arguing that RJFS is better than Jones.  That's like playing a basketball game and letting a player from off the bench of one of the teams be the referee.  So, stop saying he's impartial.  You just don't sound all that smart when you say it. 

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Camp 2:  The kool aid chugger.  Ya you know the type.  They are smart, organized, and do whatever Jones tells them as they believe it to be absolute gospel.  They feel they owe Jones for the fantastic opportunity they have been given.  They refuse to believe the fact that you make more money as an indy.  They think everything at Jones is the best, yet they have no other benchmark whatsoever to compare it to.

 
Zacko may be able to say this better than I.

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Zacks-
 
Your question about AMT isn't on their radar yet. After several years (I will generalize) most are barely north of 100K gross and they are relatively new in the biz.
 
Now before Spiff goes off on me again, I don't know his biz and I don't know him, and I know he doesn't see any relevance to time in the business, or production so don 't pigeon-hole him. He also spends times on these forums during business hours because he doesn't want to interfere with his family time.
 
He rewards himself with ties and an occassional ice cream with the family when he hits his bogey. He learned that from old sage wise man who are now GP's and once upon a time walked five miles uphill in snow shoes when they started at Jones.

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Zacko paints a fair picture of the two camps.  I believe there is a third, and it's probably the biggest of the three.
 
Camp 3:  Those that have enough common sense to know that Jones is a great company to be associated with, but is not without it's faults.  They are smart, dedicated, and loyal employees.  They have seen the other side and have chosen to stay put where they are for now.  They hear the arguments from both sides that say "I am the best" but don't believe either one.  Neither is a perfect scenario.  They have chosen that at this point in their lives,  EDJ is a great place to be.  They may or may not stay here until they retire.  Only time will tell.  
 
I also don't believe that anyone with any sort of common sense at Jones believes that indy's don't make more money.  I can only speak for myself, but I would assume YTREWQ, B24, HKA, and the others would agree, but I don't doubt for a second that your takehome pay is higher than mine.  I also know that your risk is greater than mine.  Therein lies the rub.  For many of the top producers they just simply don't want the extra headaches that the extra 10-15% would bring.  
 
Jones is not the same place it was when Zacko left.  Not anywhere close.  The improvements have been coming fast and furious and would be way too many to list here.  Just to give you an inkling of how different it is, I had a Fidelity wholesaler in my office yesterday.  I told him that I felt like I was inviting the enemy into my living room.  I would call that the new Jones.  
 
Jones may not be the best firm for you, but they're certainly far from the worst firm in the biz.    
 

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I am trying to be impartial as I have spent considerable time at both firms.  And, while I share my opinions--they are generally backed by facts and personal experiences.  I'm not saying Jones is a bad firm.  They do offer amazing rookie training and a script for success.  If you follow what they tell you to do and you work hard, you will become at least a semi-succesful financial advisor.
 
The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.
 
RJFS is a well run firm.  I own the stock.  That's the extent of how much I care of what goes on here.  I run my office, pay my staff, do my job as well as I can--and then I go home.  It's a simple platform.  My question is why be paid less to do the same work?  Why on earth would  you place you and your family in a position where you DON"T OWN the business you have worked so damn hard to build?  The list goes on and on.... 
 
Again:  There is Camp 1
And:     There is Camp 2
 
Kool aid will be served at both camps and there is plenty to go around... so enjoy :)

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BigCheese wrote:Zacks-
 
Your question about AMT isn't on their radar yet (wrong).  After several years (I will generalize) most are barely north of 100K gross (wrong) and they are relatively new in the biz.
 
Now before Spiff goes off on me again, I don't know his biz and I don't know him (true - you only act like you do), and I know he doesn't see any relevance to time in the business, or production (wrong) so don 't pigeon-hole him. He also spends times on these forums during business hours because he doesn't want to interfere with his family time (true).
 
He rewards himself with ties (wrong - I've never bought a tie for myself because I called a prospect or two) and an occassional ice cream with the family when he hits his bogey (wrong again). He learned that from old sage wise man who are now GP's and once upon a time walked five miles uphill in snow shoes when they started at Jones (true - I did hear it from Steve Seifert and Jack Cahill.  Both top producers, both GPs.  But they've never been with a firm besides Jones, so they don't know what they're talking about).

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Spiff are you suggesting that AMT for you is around the corner. Congrats I stand corrected. Oh wait a minute you just said I was wrong not that you actually are concerned about it.
 
I have to side with Zack. It's either 1 or 2.
 

The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.
 
Come on Spiff- Let's hear your response to someone who has been there and done it vs someone who hopes to get there...

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Zacko,
 
Much of what you say is true, although you have no clue as to what has gone on technologically at Jones over the last several years.  I think you would be surprised/impressed how we have burst into the 1990's.....joking aside, I believe we now have formidable technology!   I also think that, as Spiff said, being that you are with RJ now, it is impossible for you to be unbias toward who you feel is the best.  This entire thread has been about semantics....nobody can tell me what is best for ME...I don't think i've heard a Jonesie or anyone else on this site ever say that Indy Reps don't make more Net than Jones or Wires.
 
Oh yeah...this thread has also managed to make Cheese almost civil and he is now adding value to almost every discussion....you coming back to the boards seems to be the same...although our opinions differ some, having these types of debates can really help....seems it helped you to make your decision to go Indy back in the day!?

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zacko wrote:I am trying to be impartial as I have spent considerable time at both firms.  And, while I share my opinions--they are generally backed by facts and personal experiences.  I'm not saying Jones is a bad firm.  They do offer amazing rookie training and a script for success.  If you follow what they tell you to do and you work hard, you will become at least a semi-succesful financial advisor.
 
The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.
 
RJFS is a well run firm.  I own the stock.  That's the extent of how much I care of what goes on here.  I run my office, pay my staff, do my job as well as I can--and then I go home.  It's a simple platform.  My question is why be paid less to do the same work?  Why on earth would  you place you and your family in a position where you DON"T OWN the business you have worked so damn hard to build?  The list goes on and on.... 
 
Again:  There is Camp 1
And:     There is Camp 2
 
Kool aid will be served at both camps and there is plenty to go around... so enjoy :)
 
Zacko,
 
It is good to see you alive and well and posting. You helped me to see things from a different perspective so I owe you a thank you. I left Jones about a year and a half ago to go independent. I talk occasionally to brethren that are at Jones and it is always with a little bit of fondness that I remember the Saturday meetings when I started. Would I go back to Jones, no. Am I thankful for the time I spent there, yes. I find it easier on a multitude of levels to accomplish what I need to for clients without encountering tradeoffs that stand between the client and myself now being independent.
 
Thanks again.

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BigCheese wrote:Spiff are you suggesting that AMT for you is around the corner. Congrats I stand corrected. Oh wait a minute you just said I was wrong not that you actually are concerned about it.
 
I have to side with Zack. It's either 1 or 2.
 

The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.
 
Come on Spiff- Let's hear your response to someone who has been there and done it vs someone who hopes to get there...
 
AMT - yes, it's one of those. 
 
How do you figure that they undercompensate me?  If I had the exact same duties as an indy, but got paid like I do, you might have a point.  But if I worked for Morgan or Merrill/BAC or as an employee with RJ I'd get paid relatively the same way so how can you tell me that I'm undercompensated?  It's an apples to oranges conversation.  Indy's have a better payout.  Period.  There isn't anyone in the industry with a brain that doesn't know and understand that.  Again, you as an indy rep take more risk and have more responsibilities.  For that you should be compensated more.  Jones pays me what they said they were going to pay me.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It's not really a question of one being better than the other.  They're simply different.   

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So basically if I understand you correctly you are asserting that I am just wrong. You apparently can't admit that you are even close to AMT. It's just important for you to dismiss any comments that don't support your position.
 
You are so ready to be a GP. I hope they are reading these forums. (Sorry HKA)

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What comments don't support my position? Whether I am close to AMT or not is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. 
 
I'm not dismissing your comments.  I'm saying that you're arguing the point incorrectly.  To put it in your terms, the owner of the company gets paid more than the employees.  You, as an indy rep with LPL or RJ or Commonwealth or whatever affiliation you choose, are the owner of your firm and therefore are compensated for the risk you take by owning the firm.  If I read the RJ website correctly you are responsible for your own benefits, staff, their benefits, your own retirement plan, your own compliance, your own systems, etc.  I, as an employee of EDJ, am not taking the risk of being the owner and therefore am not compensated in the same way you are.   You have more risk than I do.  So do you get paid more than me?  Yes.  I'm not sure what else you want me to say. 
 
 

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They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer

Spiff-
 
These are Zacks comments. When you are above 200K Zacks words would start to make sense to you. WHEN you are facing AMT, I think its around 125K net you will be scratching your head what to do to keep your hard earned dollars.
 
I think its fairly clear you aren't grasping the comments. Mine or Zacks. The total picture is quite different once you are at least Seg 4. Re-read Zacks comments previously, its not just compensation.
 
Anyone else care to help Spiff through this? We seem to have hit critical mass...

Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

Spaceman Spiff wrote: BigCheese wrote:Spiff are you suggesting that AMT for you is around the corner. Congrats I stand corrected. Oh wait a minute you just said I was wrong not that you actually are concerned about it.
 
I have to side with Zack. It's either 1 or 2.
 

The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.
 
Come on Spiff- Let's hear your response to someone who has been there and done it vs someone who hopes to get there...
 

AMT - yes, it's one of those. 
 
How do you figure that they undercompensate me?  If I had the exact same duties as an indy, but got paid like I do, you might have a point.  But if I worked for Morgan or Merrill/BAC or as an employee with RJ I'd get paid relatively the same way so how can you tell me that I'm undercompensated?  It's an apples to oranges conversation.  Indy's have a better payout.  Period.  There isn't anyone in the industry with a brain that doesn't know and understand that.  Again, you as an indy rep take more risk and have more responsibilities.  For that you should be compensated more.  Jones pays me what they said they were going to pay me.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It's not really a question of one being better than the other.  They're simply different.   

aren't you a sales manager?????

nuff said

don't choke on the kool-aid

rankstocks's picture
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Joined: 2005-02-10

Oh Great, here we go again.......I'll bite, as usual.......
 
Interesting thing about RayJay, many of their brokers work from home or out of a bank.  I've got 3 RayJay bank brokers working for chop-shop local banks in my town.  Been smeared by the whole Dennis Hurkula scandal as well.  Funny how cuts in annuity payouts have pissed off their brokers.  Why is it the median production at RayJay 100k?, lots of poor producers bring down the median....and I've brought over a ton of RayJay accounts so I know the quality of advice I'm seeing.  On the RIA side,  how about both sides of FICA?  Affiliation fees? ticket charges? paying for assistant and her health care? Under 400k production it doesn't make sense.  Over 400k, it makes great fiscal sense.
 
    The grass is always greener on the other side.  Funny how every independent advisor is always hitting the ball out of the park.  All I hear is, "I can't believe I didn't make the change earlier", or "My business has grown so much since I went independent", or "I can make so much commission on private reits, leasing contracts, and other non-coorelated assets, so I work half as much".  Interesting thing though, is with most independents, their production is a joke.  Why do you think the median gross at RayJay & LPL is around 100k?  Why is it the last guy who was "balling out of control" when he went indy (RayJay) in my region ended up working for his dad in private real estate development (Oops!)?    Another guy in a town near mine ended up working at LPL out of his home, his parents stopped my office and said they were excited because their son just picked up a used 1998 Lexus, his first "new" car in a decade.  I know people like Zacho can buck the trend, but most don't.
     My buddy has his Jones office in another state.  An independent broker that works in the same office complex keeps trying to get him to move, RayJay if I'm not mistaken.  My buddy was talking to the indy one day, and told the indy he was averaging around 500k/month in new assets.  The indy told him, "that's it, I've been averaging twice that, and I've been doing this almost 20 years."  Turns out the guy manages less than 25 million and grosses less than 200k.  Seems as though everyone that's indy has something to prove, I don't really get it.
That being said, if I ever got pissed, I'd be at LPL or RayJay in a heartbeat.

Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

Rank,The number you quote for RayJay counts all of their channels.  Mind you, they have employee channels where they train newbs with $0 in production, just like EDJ or MER does.  For the INDY RayJay model, you can't join as your own OSJ without something like $250K T12.  If you guys notice, most of the "Indy" guys on here, are their own OSJs (whereas, I'm at an Indy office, but I get my supervision from someone else because I don't have an S24).Now, mind you, I started out fresh in the channel I'm in.  $0.  No salary.  No benefits.  I had to pay for all of my testing, licensing, E&O, etc. from the start.  Do you think having a guy like me on board lowers the mean and median production at my b/d?  I bet it does.  Guys like me aren't on here talking about "Whoa, the difference is sick!"  The guys on here talking about being Indy  vs somewhere else, have actually been somewhere else.  In any case...I know you (rank) post a lot about Indy guys "working out of their car" - but seriously?  You have some wierdos in your area I think.  But of course, ALL of those people have to be Indy...where else can they go?  certainly not MER.  EDJ isn't going to build out an office for a guy that wants to work 10 hours a week.  And even still...how about that?  Isn't it refreshing to know that these control their own destiny to such a degree that if they basically want to work 1 day per week, they can make that call?  If they don't want to have an office.  If they want to manage $14MM from home, and net $100K a year to work 10 hours a week, they are freet to do so.  On the other side...what's this discussion of AMT?  Foot, can you quantify exactly the reasons you personally would be on the hook for AMT?  I'm not saying that you don't actually pay it...I'm saying, that it's my understanding that it's not simply related to your income, and you're making it out as if that's the case...

What Me Worry's picture
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iceco1d wrote: Rank,The number you quote for RayJay counts all of their channels.  Mind you, they have employee channels where they train newbs with $0 in production, just like EDJ or MER does.  For the INDY RayJay model, you can't join as your own OSJ without something like $250K T12.  If you guys notice, most of the "Indy" guys on here, are their own OSJs (whereas, I'm at an Indy office, but I get my supervision from someone else because I don't have an S24).Now, mind you, I started out fresh in the channel I'm in.  $0.  No salary.  No benefits.  I had to pay for all of my testing, licensing, E&O, etc. from the start.  Do you think having a guy like me on board lowers the mean and median production at my b/d?  I bet it does.  Guys like me aren't on here talking about "Whoa, the difference is sick!"  The guys on here talking about being Indy  vs somewhere else, have actually been somewhere else.  In any case...I know you (rank) post a lot about Indy guys "working out of their car" - but seriously?  You have some wierdos in your area I think.  But of course, ALL of those people have to be Indy...where else can they go?  certainly not MER.  EDJ isn't going to build out an office for a guy that wants to work 10 hours a week.  And even still...how about that?  Isn't it refreshing to know that these control their own destiny to such a degree that if they basically want to work 1 day per week, they can make that call?  If they don't want to have an office.  If they want to manage $14MM from home, and net $100K a year to work 10 hours a week, they are freet to do so.  On the other side...what's this discussion of AMT?  Foot, can you quantify exactly the reasons you personally would be on the hook for AMT?  I'm not saying that you don't actually pay it...I'm saying, that it's my understanding that it's not simply related to your income, and you're making it out as if that's the case...

you in no way control your destiny. your firm will slash your payout at the first chance they get. they will change the rules.you are srcewed.ban my ip good luck it's not gonna happen. you are a twenty eight loser. get a life

Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

another lonely night at the computer mel? Crying over all that lost money in your mom's account? Drinking whiskey and lashing out on a message board? Sad Mel, real sad.

LuvIndy's picture
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Joined: 2008-06-25

A few facts: Breakeven (in other words netting a 40% "payout") happens for me at about 16k-17k gross/mo. Annualized that's 200k/yr. Not sure where the 400k calculation comes from. Above assumes about $6,000/mo overhead, which will vary.My portfolios look very similar to what they did at Jones except I receive an advisory fee now and can use some satellite funds or products where appropriate without the need to justify why I'm not hitting a breakpoint.RJFS does compliance, unless you are an RIA. I think many here with RJFS have RJ do their compliance. It is similar to Jones standards, in some caces easier, in some caces more difficult.AMT is calculated when someone has wage income and high deductions. A business owner nets his or her expenses from gross revenue for a net revenue figure, which then becomes his or her wage income for tax purposes. This is why a Jones employee has far more potential to hit AMT.RJ does not allow branches to run from a home location. It's their mandate.Do not confuse RJA (described above-employee division) with RJFS.

B24's picture
B24
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Joined: 2008-07-08

Rank, in defense of the indy numbers, there are a lot of indy "producers" that are really just licensed assistants, CPA's, attorneys, insurance agents, etc where brokering securities is not their only or primary revenue source.  So using the "average" production numbers is not really relevant in the indy world.  Just like the RIA world.  There are lots of RIA's out there that generate very little in AUM fees, but derive revenue from other sources (this again is typical with attorneys).  Because if you are going to throw the "average" numbers out there, you have to throw in American Funds, PIMCO, First Eagle, Fidelity, etc. into the mix.  They are, after all, RIA's.
 
To be honest, I think the "working out of their garage" thing is also overblown.  Yes, the indy channel is home to many lowly producers.  Guys that would have been fired at any captive firm they were at.  They are holding on simply because they can meet the indy minimum at their current firm. 
 
And I don't think production should be the benchmark.  I have one friend in particular that is an RIA.  He does about 250K in production, has about 40 clients.  Has a very nice (small) office in a nice part of town.  It's much more attractive than many of the Jones "Subway shop" offices I see.  No assistant (doesn't need one).  He nets just over 200K.  That's after everything other than personal income taxes.  He works maybe 25-30 hours per week just managing money.  Loves his job, loves his life.  Doesn't take any new clients under 500K.  So he's a small, indy producer, netting about as much as a 450-500K producer at Jones, with a MUCH easier lifestyle and work life.  I'm just not sure how that qualifies as a bad thing.  Just saying.
 
On the other hand, my regional leader grosses about 450-500K, has over 1,000 households and about 85mm AUM.  Took him 10 years to get to that (he just started as RL).  You know how much work that took to get there?  I know you do.  Most people just don't want to work that hard for that long.  And then you have to manage 1000 households.  Our former RL has about 1500 housholds and 175mm AUM.  The guy grosses about 850K (plus lots of SLP and LP).  18 years in.  Won't even take a day off to go golfing.  Too much to do.  Too many calls to make.  Works about 45 hours a week.  He's a "stockbroker".  But he makes a lot of money.
 
If I laid out all these scenarios in front of someone, which one do you think they would pick?  Just saying.
 
I'm not sure how many successful indy advisors you know, but a I know several, and I would consider them all successful in many ways. 

BigCheese's picture
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Joined: 2009-07-13

I can't speak for Ray Jay, but as an LPL rep, they have 12K reps and gross roughly half of Jones reveunes. I think LPL had revenues of 2.5B last year. To be your own OSJ you have to have at least 125K gross...not very much. Half as much as Ray Jay. So it wouldn't suprise me if 30-40% of the reps were less than 125K.
My hat's off to guys like Rank who have done it themselves (I believe that to be the case). B24's point should be reitereated.
 
Which is better? A rep who grosses 500K and NETS 200K vs. a rep who grosses 300K and NETS 200K.
 
I realized long ago, for me, scenario 2 was the right option. By the way these are my numbers. I work out of an office, have two part-time assistants and work about 35 hours a week now. I have 161 households and closing in on 40M. I contribute 65K (my wife and I) a year to a retirement plan and have tremendous tax advantages since I left Jones.
 
Speaking of taxes. This is an item that is overlooked when comparing employee vs self employed. AMT, thankfully, was defined by Luv. I am not an accountant. Suffice to say that AMT originally was designed to tax the wealthy. My understanding is that AMT is an alternative method of calculating tax not additional.  The rub is that the thresholds have dropped and it is now affecting middle income earners. I know of several reps that left Jones because they couldn't get around AMT and were paying much more than ordinary income tax. Maybe RANK could share with us his experience.
 
As Spiff is so quick to remind us, neither is better just different. Zacko,Luv, myself would more than likely contend that life is better as an independent for a variety of reasons highlighted many times preivously.
 
 

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