Success Oddsmaker

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Closer's picture
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Joined: 2007-02-26

Well, I have been on this forum for about 6 months or so, and am pretty familiar with all of the usual characters here. I have really appreciated the advice dispensed here, and it has been maybe the best resource for developing an understanding of the business. As some of you know, tomorrow I am starting at Morgan Stanley. I figured I'd get some input, advice, and especially the odds that I will succeed. This could be entertaining. I will throw out some of my information and allow all of you veterans and rookies to make judgments.-22 years old (look and can act late 20's at best)-graduated with a Psychology degree from a well-known university in May (although I coasted through college instead of over-studying)-spent the last 4 months working for an insurance company-pre-licensed: Series 65 (76%), Series 7 (85%), Series 63 (91%)-plan on beginning mainly with cold-calling campaigns, similar to the Judge's 500 day war.What are the odds that I succeed? >

snaggletooth's picture
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Joined: 2007-07-13

Be the first one in the office and the last one out of the office EVERY day.  Work harder than everyone else.  Contact as many people as possible.

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

Bobby, you may not like me, and sometimes I dont like you either, but you make me laugh.

troll's picture
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pratoman wrote:Bobby, you may not like me, and sometimes I dont like you either, but you make me laugh.
I like you, potatoman.

Gaddock's picture
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Joined: 2007-02-23

Hello Closer,
Congratulations!
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Two things I know…your success is in your heart and between your ears.
 
Distilling things down to the lowest common denominator. Make sure you keep score. My research indicates that if you can speak with 50 people a day you’ll do just fine.
 
When you find comfort in cold calling you are probably closer to the goal than the start.
 
Last and perhaps most important. Run from negativity like it’s cancer, example
 
Success Oddsmaker”
 
If you are starting with MS my bet is you already know the attrition rates in this biz
 
Go out and kick some arse!!
 Good luck.

advisor28's picture
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Joined: 2007-06-04

Closer,
You have no downside, probably not married no kids that you can think of and the salary plus commission is the most money you have ever made... I started in this biz 2 weeks prior to Sept 11th, no one from my class left and I'll gross $500k this year.  Your age is only an excuse (not that you will make one) if your competent, trustworthy and likeable then your chances are significantly higher then the average...and hey I only scored an 82% on my 7, by the way not really applicable to your success in this business.

advisor28's picture
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Joined: 2007-06-04

continued: I was hired at 21 and 22 when I started selling.

Closer's picture
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Joined: 2007-02-26

Thanks for the advice/support. I was actually looking for some numerical odds just for fun. How far along are you now advisor28? Did you go wirehouse?

advisor28's picture
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Joined: 2007-06-04

I'm at AG/ Wachovia and I like it.

anonymous's picture
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Joined: 2005-09-29

The odds are stacked against you simply because most people aren't willing to do on a daily basis what needs to be done.  If you do what needs to be done, you will succeed in this business.  That does not mean that you will succeed at Morgan Stanley. 

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

"-22 years old (look and can act late 20's at best)"
Good, dishonesty is a great start. Fake it till you make it, right? And, at 22 why in the world do you think you should take responsibility for other people's financial future?!
"-graduated with a Psychology degree from a well-known university in May (although I coasted through college instead of over-studying)"
No financial background. And maybe you can coast through telling people how to invest and hit the bar early.
"-spent the last 4 months working for an insurance company"
Gotta love that sales experience..4 months of it.
"-pre-licensed: Series 65 (76%), Series 7 (85%), Series 63 (91%)"
http://www.efmoody.com/whouse.html
"-plan on beginning mainly with cold-calling campaigns, similar to the Judge's 500 day war."
I thought cold-calling was illegal...or is it just unethical?
"DefinitionThe ethically questionable practice by full-service brokers of making unsolicited phone calls to people they don't know in order to attract new business."
 http://www.investorwords.com/926/cold_calling.html

anonymous's picture
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Joined: 2005-09-29

William, cold calling is certainly not illegal.  Why does William think that it is unethical?

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

"Every sales cold call breaks the Golden Rule, period.  A person who occupies someone else's time for the purpose of pitching a product is not treating their time and privacy with the same respect he would have for himself."
This was interesting:
"Certain ploys undoubtedly are unethical, if not illegal. One popular trick? “You know those fish bowls at restaurants where if you put your business card in you can win a free lunch?” asks Stan Grubman, of Corporate Contacts, a cold-call listing service based in Silver Spring, Md. “Well, brokers steal those cards.”
http://registeredrep.com/mag/finance_cold_calling_ice/
The unethical and the unethical.
 

RULiquid's picture
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Joined: 2007-07-16

closer, nice ambition.
 
just take the advice and pay attention to the ones who respond in a professional manner to you.  there are a lot of grumps and scrooges on this board who are negative as one could be. personally i think its because of poor job performance that has kindled frustration.
 
you will be able to tell if you havent already who here is has success in their pockets, and the ones who have let it eat them alive.
 
stay strong brother!

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

Why should I never average down?

anonymous's picture
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Joined: 2005-09-29

William,
I'm not talking about unethical ploys.  I am talking about the simple act of cold calling.  So, are you saying that cold calling is unethical behavior because it breaks the Gold Rule or are you just quoting someone else who said that?
Also, if a financial advisor doesn't mind receiving cold calls, is it ok for that financial advisor to make them?  How do calls to referrals fit into the equation?

troll's picture
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Indyone's picture
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william1 wrote:"-22 years old (look and can act late 20's at best)"
Good, dishonesty is a great start. Fake it till you make it, right? And, at 22 why in the world do you think you should take responsibility for other people's financial future?!  Gee, little willie...what are YOUR qualifications?  Forum trolling is not an education.
"-graduated with a Psychology degree from a well-known university in May (although I coasted through college instead of over-studying)"
No financial background. And maybe you can coast through telling people how to invest and hit the bar early. Again, what are YOUR qualifications?  I haven't seen any evidence of ability out of you yet.
"-spent the last 4 months working for an insurance company"
Gotta love that sales experience..4 months of it.  ...and how much sales experience do YOU have?
"-pre-licensed: Series 65 (76%), Series 7 (85%), Series 63 (91%)"
http://www.efmoody.com/whouse.html  You can save your links...just tell us what YOUR scores on the tests were, OK?
"-plan on beginning mainly with cold-calling campaigns, similar to the Judge's 500 day war."
I thought cold-calling was illegal...or is it just unethical?  Not illegal - subject to the DNC list, but not illegal.  Once again, you show your complete and utter stupidity with posts like this.  Unethical?  Who died and made you God?
"DefinitionThe ethically questionable practice by full-service brokers of making unsolicited phone calls to people they don't know in order to attract new business."
 http://www.investorwords.com/926/cold_calling.html  You're basing your assertion on the opinion of a web article?!!  You can't get a much weaker argument that an opinion based on another opinion.
Hey troll...did you somehow start your career with all the credentials and twenty years of experience?  Keep posting...as your credentials keep sliding further and further down the toilet.

pretzelhead's picture
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Joined: 2007-03-23

It's also unethical to advertise or go to networking groups.

shadow191's picture
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Joined: 2007-06-25

I have to ask you what is an ethical way to prospect?  Is it more ethical to call someone, state your reason for calling up front and take up 20 seconds of their time?  Or is it better to join a networking or volunteer group with the ulterior motive of finding clients?  At least with cold calling, the person on the other end knows who you are and why they are being called.  All they have to do is say not interested, that's it.
I fail to see how cold calling is unethical.  If one follows the DNC rules, then I don't see where the problem is.  I personally do take cold calls, if I'm not interested in what they are selling, then I just say no.  Cold calling may be bothersome to some people, but it's certainly not unethical.  Some of my best clients came from cold calls.  I've been told by several of them "I'm glad I took your call that day."
What I find unethical are those who join social and volunteer groups without any real interest in the cause.  They're only there to pick up business. 
FWIW, someone stealing cards from a fishbowl does not make cold calling unethical.  Stealing is unethical, cold calling is at worst annoying.
 
william1 wrote:
"Every sales cold call breaks the Golden Rule, period.  A person who occupies someone else's time for the purpose of pitching a product is not treating their time and privacy with the same respect he would have for himself."
This was interesting:
"Certain ploys undoubtedly are unethical, if not illegal. One popular trick? “You know those fish bowls at restaurants where if you put your business card in you can win a free lunch?” asks Stan Grubman, of Corporate Contacts, a cold-call listing service based in Silver Spring, Md. “Well, brokers steal those cards.”
http://registeredrep.com/mag/finance_cold_calling_ice/
The unethical and the unethical.
 

Gaddock's picture
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Joined: 2007-02-23

william1 wrote:
"Every sales cold call breaks the Golden Rule, period.  A person who occupies someone else's time for the purpose of pitching a product is not treating their time and privacy with the same respect he would have for himself."
This was interesting:
"Certain ploys undoubtedly are unethical, if not illegal. One popular trick? “You know those fish bowls at restaurants where if you put your business card in you can win a free lunch?” asks Stan Grubman, of Corporate Contacts, a cold-call listing service based in Silver Spring, Md. “Well, brokers steal those cards.”
http://registeredrep.com/mag/finance_cold_calling_ice/
The unethical and the unethical.

I also read the article ... rolling eyes. The only things I can deduct are you, and the author of the article, are not in a sales position & are probably not to the task. The author’s stats are way off as well. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Best of luck whatever you do.

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

Everyone that thinks cold calling is fine, post your phone numbers below and I'll give them out to tons of sales organizations.
Bottom line, people hate sales calls. We all know it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8-MUE9_l2sA

Dust Bunny's picture
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Bottom line, people hate sales calls. We all know it.
I hate paying my taxes too, that doesn't make collecting taxes illegal or unethical.
(Well actually, I think it is unethical to take my money against my will and spend it on things I don't approve of....but that's another story )

Closer's picture
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william1...1 - how should i rake in the money without cold-calling2 - it seems that everyone on this forum hates you3 - MS seemed great, they run a tight ship. good people too.

troll's picture
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"I have to ask you what is an ethical way to prospect? "
Put up flyers. Do a radio show. Give seminars. Set up a website. If someone wants to call you, they will. Do not contact people directly: Don't bother people. In fact, Vanguard never cold calls. They never put out fishbowls or work their natural market. People call them! No need to prospect.
 

troll's picture
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william1 wrote:
"I have to ask you what is an ethical way to prospect? "
Put up flyers. Do a radio show. Give seminars. Set up a website. If someone wants to call you, they will. Do not contact people directly: Don't bother people. In fact, Vanguard never cold calls. They never put out fishbowls or work their natural market. People call them! No need to prospect.

Great business plan. Its a business, stupid!

Dust Bunny's picture
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Vanguard never cold calls
Yes they do. They are all over my television set, magazines where I don't want to see advertising and on pop ups on my computer screen.

anonymous's picture
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Joined: 2005-09-29

I recently paid a death claim to a young woman with two children.  Her husband had no desire to meet with me when I COLD CALLED him.  Fortunately, I was able to get the appointment.  Do you think that the $1,000,000 might make a difference in their lives? 
Especially on the insurance side of the business, people don't do what needs to be done on their own.  I sell several insurance policies every week.  Less than 5% are from someone contacting me.  
The work that I do is too important to be handled reactively.  Can you name a single insurance company that follows the Vanguard no-load lead and has a competetive product?  The answer is none. 
I contact people.  They are grownups.  They can tell me "no" if they don't want to meet.  They can add themselves to the "do not call" list if they don't want anybody to call them at home.
 
 

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

"Gee, little willie...what are YOUR qualifications?"
This isn't about me, although I seem to be all you can think about. This is about the fact that the vast majority of financial advisors are hurting their clients. I'm just trying to clean up some of the messes by telling peple what they are paying in fees and how to use Morningstar and that they can do their own investing. YOU should be telling them about the fees they are paying and the truth about their returns, but I guess it slips your mind.
But you know that - you just attack me to deflect attention from yourself - and you're the problem, not me.
Again: "the BCT study found that the raw returns of equally weighted mutual funds (net of all expenses) for 1996 to 2002 were 6.626% for the investors working on their own and were 2.924% for funds provided by advisors.
In other words, the public working on its own did more than 100% better than financial advisors when it came to selecting equity mutual funds. After factoring in inflation and taxes, clients of financial advisors lost money and lost purchasing power. This must change."
That's about YOU. You are the ones hurting your clients. Don't you care? Can you only hurl childish insults at me? Forget me. Learn to do your job. Stop hurting your clients.
I don't see any phone numbers out here. And, I ignore arbitrary stories with no proof.
And, it seems some people have no idea what cold calling is:
cold calling
DefinitionThe ethically questionable practice by full-service brokers of making unsolicited phone calls to people they don't know in order to attract new business.
http://www.investorwords.com/926/cold_calling.html
 

deekay's picture
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Joined: 2007-05-15

william1 wrote:
Everyone that thinks cold calling is fine, post your phone numbers below and I'll give them out to tons of sales organizations.
Bottom line, people hate sales calls. We all know it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8-MUE9_l2sA

I like to receive cold calls.  I try to pick up on techniques that work, and avoid things that suck.  I'm sure if you worked hard enough, you could find my number.  Go for it.

Indyone's picture
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william1 wrote:"Gee, little willie...what are YOUR qualifications?"
This isn't about me, although I seem to be all you can think about. I'm sorry...when you enter a registered rep forum and attack the entire industry as bad, it IS about you and what your qualifications to pass judgement on us are.  This is about the fact that the vast majority of financial advisors are hurting their clients. News flash...NOBODY has EVER accused me of hurting them and I'm sick of you tarring the entire industry with the same brush.  I'm just trying to clean up some of the messes by telling peple what they are paying in fees and how to use Morningstar and that they can do their own investing. Oh please...you were wronged by an advisor, so you're lashing out at the entire industry.  Let's call a spade, a spade.  YOU should be telling them about the fees they are paying and the truth about their returns, but I guess it slips your mind. You have no idea what I tell my clients and frankly, you're the last person I'd accept that advice from.  The fact that you assume you know what I do and don't tell them just makes you look foolish.
But you know that - you just attack me to deflect attention from yourself - and you're the problem, not me. That's a matter of opinion, and frankly, I see amateurs such as yourself masquerading as financial advisors having much more potential to do damage than a rep in this industry, that at least has an E&O policy to make a client whole when a mistake is made or a wrong is committed.
Again: "the BCT study found that the raw returns of equally weighted mutual funds (net of all expenses) for 1996 to 2002 were 6.626% for the investors working on their own and were 2.924% for funds provided by advisors.
In other words, the public working on its own did more than 100% better than financial advisors when it came to selecting equity mutual funds. After factoring in inflation and taxes, clients of financial advisors lost money and lost purchasing power. This must change."  Your numbers don't even approach the reality of how my clients have done.  Just ask thet client who made money with my recomendations in 2000-2002 while his buddy lost 70% of his retirement fund investing on his own with Janus...and getting completely out of the market in the fall of 2002.
That's about YOU. No, by insisting on pushing your agenda here, you've made it about YOU.  As long as you continue to do so, you can expect me here to counterbalance your propaganda.  You have zero credibility with me and I suspect many others here.  You are the ones hurting your clients. No, I think you are by recommending indexing which guarantees your "clients" will underperform the market.  Don't you care? I do care.  That is why I will not let your ridiculous claims stand unopposed.  Can you only hurl childish insults at me? Oh please...did I hurt your feelings?   Forget me. I'd like to, but you insist on continuing to litter this forum with your agenda-serving propaganda.  Learn to do your job. 18 years, CFP/CPA, 90+ on series 7 & 65...I think I have a better grasp of the fundamentals than you'll ever dream of having.  Stop hurting your clients. I never started...I have a clear conscience.
I don't see any phone numbers out here. That's because I put my number on the DNC list...have you even heard of this?  And, I ignore arbitrary stories with no proof.  Just like I ignore arbitrary studies designed to "prove" an agenda.
And, it seems some people have no idea what cold calling is:
cold calling
DefinitionThe ethically questionable practice by full-service brokers of making unsolicited phone calls to people they don't know in order to attract new business.
http://www.investorwords.com/926/cold_calling.html
...and who's definition is that?  It's obviously filled with opinion.  Who determines that the practice is "ethically questionable"?  How does the author know that the target is unknown by the broker?  Is this practice really only done by "full-service brokers"?  Please...there's nothing objective about that definition.
Keep posting, but understand...there will always be people here to keep you honest.

troll's picture
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"I'm sorry...when you enter a registered rep forum and attack the entire industry as bad, it IS about you and what your qualifications to pass judgement on us are. "
I've backed up my judgements with proof. That's what you forget.
"News flash...NOBODY has EVER accused me of hurting them "
I have. The study does. Your actions only confirm.
"Oh please...you were wronged by an advisor,"
I was not. I know enough not to let that happen. But I have seen plenty of other people wronged and I can think. I suggest you read DAToo's posts very carefully.
"You have no idea what I tell my clients"
Based on your actions here, studies, articles, my experience... I have a pretty good idea.
"That's a matter of opinion,"
Not. I've watched you do it over and over and over.
"I see amateurs such as yourself masquerading as financial advisors"
I am not. You are though.
"Your numbers don't even approach the reality of how my clients have done.  "
I have no interest in BS.
"No, by insisting on pushing your agenda here, you've made it about YOU.  "
Only if you have no interest in how you hurt your clients and have no motivation to do a better job. Then yes, you'll make it about me. Not the study, not the articles...just me.
"No, I think you are by recommending indexing which guarantees your "clients" will underperform the market. "
And guarantees they will outperform the vast number of FAs.
"You have zero credibility with me and I suspect many others here."
It's the study and the articles you should be taking a hard look at. That you attack me gives you zero credibility.
"I do care."
You care about being a salesman. You don't care about proper investing principles. You don't care that you hurt your clients...badly.
"18 years, CFP/CPA, 90+ on series 7 & 65...I think I have a better grasp of the fundamentals than you'll ever dream of having."
If you did you would never make this statement: ""No, I think you are by recommending indexing which guarantees your "clients" will underperform the market. "
"Just like I ignore arbitrary studies designed to "prove" an agenda."
And here you have completely exposed yourself.
 
 
 

Dust Bunny's picture
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Again: "the BCT study found that the raw returns of equally weighted mutual funds (net of all expenses) for 1996 to 2002 were 6.626% for the investors working on their own and were 2.924% for funds provided by advisors.
Again with the obnoxious fonts:  but you know, little willy, that would be a really cool study and even somewhat pertinent,  if it were that all we did were mutual funds.  You have been told over and over and given numerous examples of the other services and investments that we provide that are not "equally weighted mutual funds (net of all expenses)"  ....do dah do dah ....cut and paste until the cows come home.
Yet, you refuse to acknowledge that the investment portfolios we provide are complex and ever changing and that the needs of our clients are unique from person to person; often comprising portfolios that require constant monitoring and adjustments throughout the years.   
All that I can conclude from your supposedly exalted debating style and your elevated status as a teacher (cough cough.. don't make me laugh) is that you are a single minded moron. 
Have fun with that.
Oh and how about that cold calling?    Vanguard cold calls me every time they shove an advertisement into my personal space.  It's the same thing.....they just have more bucks to be able to do it with impunity and I can't put them on the 'do not call list' since they are ubiquitous.
So sad to be so inept for an "educator".   Your students and  their parents should demand a refund.

troll's picture
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Wilma, told you the Killer Bunny attack would be next, didn't I!
http://images.google.com/images?q=Killer+Bunny&hl=en&amp ;um=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

Dust Bunny's picture
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg&feature=PlayL ist&p=5B8076005F1C5BCF&index=14
No ordinary rabbit.  Look at the boooones.!

Indyone's picture
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william1 wrote:
"I'm sorry...when you enter a registered rep forum and attack the entire industry as bad, it IS about you and what your qualifications to pass judgement on us are. "
I've backed up my judgements with proof. That's what you forget.
No, you've backed your judgements with an agenda-serving "study" that doesn't even appraoch the reality of what I've seen over the years in this industry.
 
"News flash...NOBODY has EVER accused me of hurting them "
I have. The study does. Your actions only confirm.
Your accusations carry no weight with me as you have not the slightest clue how I manage accounts.  Neither does your "study", and I'd like to know what actions you're referring to...calling a troll a troll has no bearing on how I manage client investments
 
"Oh please...you were wronged by an advisor,"
I was not. I know enough not to let that happen. But I have seen plenty of other people wronged and I can think. I suggest you read DAToo's posts very carefully.
You can deny who you are, but you've been labled.  Parroting an agenda-serving study does not constitute thinking.
 
"You have no idea what I tell my clients"
Based on your actions here, studies, articles, my experience... I have a pretty good idea.
Once again, based on your accusations, you have no idea...that's obvious.
 
"That's a matter of opinion,"
Not. I've watched you do it over and over and over.
...oh really?!!!  That would require you to have an intimate knowledge of both me and my clients.  You're sounding more and more ridiculous all the time.
 
"I see amateurs such as yourself masquerading as financial advisors"
I am not. You are though.
 I's that all you've got?!!  "I know you are, but what am I?!!"
I'll gladly stand my credentials, education and experience agsinst yours...want to?
 
"Your numbers don't even approach the reality of how my clients have done.  "
I have no interest in BS.
Really?!!  You sure post enough of it for having no interest in it...
 
"No, by insisting on pushing your agenda here, you've made it about YOU.  "
Only if you have no interest in how you hurt your clients and have no motivation to do a better job. Then yes, you'll make it about me. Not the study, not the articles...just me.
It's about you because you insist on tarring the entire industry with one brush.  I'm doing just fine by my clients and thus, I take issue with you making accusations to the contrary.  My motivation is client first.  Your motivation is simply revenge against the industry becaue of a bad experience.
 
"No, I think you are by recommending indexing which guarantees your "clients" will underperform the market. "
And guarantees they will outperform the vast number of FAs.
You know, I'm responsible for me and my clients and I'd be embarrassed to consistently underperform the indexes.  I can't help you with the Primerica and Thrivent reps...if I had my way, many of them would be out of the industry also.
 
"You have zero credibility with me and I suspect many others here."
It's the study and the articles you should be taking a hard look at. That you attack me gives you zero credibility.
I've seen your "study" and I take issue with your generalizations.  If you want to say theer are some bad apples in the industry, that's not news.  Lumping us all together is irresposible.  I'll let those who read this diatribe determine who has credibility.  You won't convince me that you have any as long as you continue to put us all in the same box.  You might as well say that all black people are lazy, all asians are bad drivers and all jews cheat people.  That is simply irresponsible and I won't sit here and take it.
 
"I do care."
You care about being a salesman. You don't care about proper investing principles. You don't care that you hurt your clients...badly.
I think you're the one trying to do the sales job and I'm not buying.  As to how I care for my clients, you'd have to ask them, but sadly, you have no idea who they are, so again, your personal attack has no merit.
 
"18 years, CFP/CPA, 90+ on series 7 & 65...I think I have a better grasp of the fundamentals than you'll ever dream of having."
If you did you would never make this statement: ""No, I think you are by recommending indexing which guarantees your "clients" will underperform the market. "
Sure I would.  I just did and I stand by it.  If I didn't care about my clients, I'd just index and be done with it.  Why work harder to do the best possible job for my clients?
 
"Just like I ignore arbitrary studies designed to "prove" an agenda."
And here you have completely exposed yourself.
...with every post, you expose more and more of your hateful, anti-advisor agenda.  I'm simply here to provide the other side of the story.  Excellent advisors do exist...they simply refuse to work with amateurs who think they know more than a good professional.
Go ahead and post your hateful ill-informed agenda.  I'll be back to provide more counterbalance after I take care of some client paperwork and research.
I won't go away and I won't stop exposing your "truth" for what it is...pure agenda-serving propaganda.

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

who's red, who's black?
indyone has been very rude many times and also bashed, bullied poor Nancy as I vaguely recall; however, he does make some points about not over-generalizing about "everyone" in the industry, Wilma, if I may add a moderator comment here.  There are some good fa's as you well know.  You have to remember that being an fa is their means of livelihood.
You were a prior manager at amex.  Would you have wanted someone to convince amex (at the time--that all managers are worthless: fire them all? Dispense with the career field of manager!  (Nope:  only, maybe 50% of them were worthless, bad bosses, assholes and the like.  :-) 

ExPropTrader's picture
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Joined: 2006-11-19

GGGR wrote:
Wilma
You were a prior manager at amex. 

That explains the stupidity and hostility, so poor Wilma couldnt cut it and it just eats her alive that the rest of us can.  Maybe if she'd have done her homework here (can't anymore cause thanks to you there is no useful info) she might have picked a better firm or platform that doesn't screw the clients.  Then poor macca might not be so bitter.

shadow191's picture
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Other than the flyers (just seems tacky) all of those are good ideas.  But all of those ideas are used by very unethical people also.  I'm sure you see on the news when a bunch of seniors get fleeced by someone they met on a seminar, or an advisor who has a radio show and burns clients.
FWIW, the firm that catches much of your ire, Ameriprise, doesn't cold call anymore.  They work the fishbowls and natural market.  I find those two activities more questionable than cold calling, but neither is unethical.
william1 wrote:
"I have to ask you what is an ethical way to prospect? "
Put up flyers. Do a radio show. Give seminars. Set up a website. If someone wants to call you, they will. Do not contact people directly: Don't bother people. In fact, Vanguard never cold calls. They never put out fishbowls or work their natural market. People call them! No need to prospect.
 

anonymous's picture
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They work the fishbowls and natural market.  I find those two activities more questionable than cold calling, but neither is unethical.
What's questionable about working one's natural market?

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

"What's questionable about working one's natural market?
Easier to manipulate. It's hard for someone to say no to a friend or relative. It's harder for someone to see the truth about a friend or relative. And yet harder to get out of the mess, knowing that you'll have to face that person at every holiday, or even lose a friend.
And, in some firms, if you leave the firm keeps your natural market. They are not told this, of course.
Also, it's usually beginners that are forced by their firm to go after their natural market and these friends and relatives are the made to feel responsible for the new financial advisor's success.
I get to see it from the back end. The lifelong friend that became a salesman has pressured their buddy into investing through them. Because Cindy trusts Joe, she doesn't question him the way she would a stranger. She trusts him based on the friendship. Years down the road she meets me and is shocked to find out that she's paying tons of fees. She thought the planning fee she paid years ago was all she paid. And, when sge finds that she's way underperforming the market, she's just sick. Now she has to confront an old friend. Do you have any idea how hard that is? Yes, I bet you do.
The amount of manipulation that goes on in your business is amazing.
 

shadow191's picture
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I should have differentiated between natural market; ie. ethnic group or whatever, as opposed to friends and family.  My comments were directed at those who target friends and family.
It's probably just my personal experience with some people I know who became insurance agents.  They call me with the pitch they've been taught and even when I politely decline, they persist.  And if I'm in a social situation with mutual friends and they are there, they will strike up a conversation and then suddenly transition into why I need to meet with them.  It makes me uncomfortable, and it makes the other people around us uncomfortable. 
There is nothing inherently wrong with working with people within your natural market (I just prefer cold prospecting because it keeps friends and business separate).  Most of us do it, I have several clients who were friends of mine.  The difference is, I didn't target them.  They know what I do, and if I saw any indication of interest I would follow up.  If there was no interest, I didn't call them every few weeks to try and get an appointment.  I didn't create a Top 100 list or whatever they call it nowadays and pitch everyone on that list.
I don't like to mix business with pleasure.  Even for those clients who are my friends, we talk about business when there is an appointment.  During social outings, we are friends and don't talk business. 
 
 
anonymous wrote:
They work the fishbowls and natural market.  I find those two activities more questionable than cold calling, but neither is unethical.
What's questionable about working one's natural market?

troll's picture
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"You have been told over and over and given numerous examples of the other services and investments that we provide that are not "equally weighted mutual funds (net of all expenses)" "
Please post a link to your published rebuttal of the study. So far, there has been no rebuttal at all published. None. Zip. So, go for it. Actually, I doubt you have even read the study.
Again, for the fourth or fifth time: Tell me what percent of salesmen do NOT sell mutual funds and show me a study that compares their returns with DIY returns. Because I'm figuring that if you can't choose funds and get decent returns, you're not doing any better with stock picking.
And, if we look at VA and VUL returns as compared to DIY returns, how do you think that will look? I recently compared a Riversource VUL with Vanguard mutual funds and I have a pretty good idea.
"Yet, you refuse to acknowledge that the investment portfolios we provide are complex "
Have you posted your scenerios on Vanguard Diehards yet? I'm waiting.
"Vanguard cold calls me every time they shove an advertisement into my personal space. "
No, they don't. You obviously do not know what cold calling means.
Call me all the names you like and threaten to kill me all you like. Bottom line, you hurt your clients FINANCIALLY. THAT's WRONG.
"No, you've backed your judgements with an agenda-serving "study" that doesn't even appraoch the reality of what I've seen over the years in this industry."
Where is your published rebuttal to the study, then?? The truth: "Assessing the Costs and Benefits of Brokers in the Mutual Fund Industry" is written by Daniel Bergstresser of Harvard Business School, John Chalmers of the University of Oregon, and Peter Tufano of Harvard Business School.All PhD's although some salesman on here claimed not one of them were. That salesman was wrong.
The study has been discussed in several major media sources and newspapers. WSJ, Money, Forbes, etc, etc. Not one rebutted the study. No salesmen have rebutted the study. Not even you.
Read this again: "It is important to note that the authors are not anti-advisor. Remarkably, they had the cooperation and support of some of the largest and most respected industry groups and research organizations in America in working on this study. " 
I'm not at all interested in your personal attacks on me. Instead, use that time to learn how to help your clients...or write a rebuttal to the BCT study. And remember: "It is very difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."Upton Sinclair

anonymous's picture
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Joined: 2005-09-29

I'll ignore Willie's post since he is obviously assuming that we are all manipulating people so that we can rip them off.  When we start with that premise, everything that we do is unethical.
Shadow, what your post points out simply is that there is a right way and a wrong way to approach one's friends and family.
Many of my friends are clients.  What happens after awhile is that in many instances, you can't really remember if they were friends who became clients or clients who became friends.  What I have discovered is that friends who become clients always end up better friends.   It's also true that many friends who don't become clients end up not being friends.  This isn't for any reason other than the reality of life as a business owner and a parent of young children.  Being a client "forces" me to spend time with friends.  Otherwise, unless our children are of the same age, we simply don't have time for each other.
I've never had a problem in social settings.  I have no desire to bring up the subject. 
Calling on friends and family in the beginning can really increase one's chance of success.  F & F probably won't become clients in the beginning because they know that the advisor is new, but they can be a great source of referrals.  It's much easier getting business from referrals than cold.
Now that I have a successful practice, I still call on friends.  If my practice was just investment focused, I probably would not do so.  However, the thought that of a friend dying and his family not being ok because I never made the phone call is not acceptable.  My work is important.  My friends need me.
Anyway, regardless of whether one does it or not, there is certainly nothing unethical about calling friends unless you are like William and would manipulate them and charge them too much in fees.
PS. I treat phone calls to friends just like phone calls to strangers.  The only difference is that I start every phone conversation by saying, "Hi, Shadow.  This is Anonymous making a business call.  Do you have a minute to talk."  I'll ask for the appointment.  They'll say yes or no.  If "yes" at the meeting they'll get treated like all clients.  If "no", I'll ask permission to follow up in 12 months.   I never turn a social call into a business call.  There is never a period of time where the client is thinking, "Ok, what is his real reason for calling?"

anonymous's picture
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And remember: "It is very difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."Upton Sinclair
Willie, with you, we can just change this saying slightly.
"It is very difficult to get a woman to understand something when her entire existence depends on her not understanding it."

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

I've got it figured out.
The studies such as the BTC study--and dozens of others--that reveal time and time again that a do it yourselfer will outperform most "financial advisors" is true.
What has happened is the handful of "financial advisors" who do better than do it yourselfers are all posting on this forum, and on the TGP forum, and on "The Clubhouse" forum.
Yep, makes sense to me.  As we all know people who are successful have loads of time on their hands for posting on message boards.

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

"Yep, makes sense to me.  As we all know people who are successful have loads of time on their hands for posting on message boards."
And, they all have 'interesting' personalities, threatening to kill people, talking about penises, calling women filthy sexual names, irrational, spending hours making fun of people. That's the new successful sales personality, I suppose.
So, we have a bunch of psychotic, nasty, irrational salesmen spending all their time posting on a couple forums (and making up a brand new one!) ...and they are the ones that are the cream of the crop.
Indeed.

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