A little help here...

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Neanderthalman's picture
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I've been browsing through this forum and have read a lot of good and bad reviews wrt EDJ. There have been a few that indicated EDJ would be a good start point for a someone who is completely new to the financial investment/advisor fields. I have 20 yrs service in the military (logistics - all modes) and I'm seriously looking at EDJ as a transitional career for me. I've read their material (the pdf file) and your material about them - I have an acct at investopedia.com and have started to read the series 7 prep (and basic investing tutorial). As for sales, I don't have a background in it so I'm reading about it and about Marketing - just to get a feel for it.

Is EDJ a good choice or not?

B24's picture
B24
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NM, Jones (as well as a lot of firms) recruit heavily from the armed forces.  I would suggest you submit your application, talk to some Jones guys in your area, then ask the recruiter for names of armed forces veterans that you can talk to in the field (that have been out less than 10 years).  They are the ones that will give you the real picture.  But it's a good choice for a few reasons:
1. this business is good for people that are regimented, especially in the beginning, and that have thick skins.  Most military personnel have both.
2. You can make an income that is better than what you had in the military for the first few years, even if you end up not making it - so you have little to lose.  And the upside long term is obviously very high.
3. Most firms are "military friendly".  They support hiring veterans.

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

Thanks for the advice - I've sent some questions to a Jones rep where I live. I'll just have to wait for his answers.

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

...sure they enjoy the military, but are they looking more for former officers as opposed to non-commisioned members (or does it matter?)

B24's picture
B24
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Not sure it matters.  That's why talking with a recruiter and FA vets is worthwhile.  Basically, unless you are an officer with many connections (i.e. you're going to open shop where you've been stationed for years), I don't think there is any advantage to being an officer in this business.  I am not former military, so I don't know if they tend to have a certain skill set not present with enlisted men. 

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

Thanks again...there is an essay, that states the difference between enlisted and officer has narrowed

jkl1v1n6's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-06

A little caution here:  Not so sure I would say that you will end up making more money for the first few years "even if you end up not making it"  that isn't necessarily so.  Let's not paint too rosy of a picture here.  This is a tough business and if you aren't able to find investable assets and close the sale you won't make much money and you won't make it at Jones.
 
With that said, I do believe Jones is an excellent place to start and if you're happy there, finish your career there.  They teach you the basics of investing and the basics of selling.  What you do with it from there is up to you.  
 
Is someone Goodknighting you, are you taking over a vacant office?  These are a couple of the things you want to look for before you commit.
 
Good Luck with your decisions!

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

I understand the risks of sales and having read a bunch of posts here I know it won`t be a bed of roses. Right now EDJ is sending me quarterly reports until I req further action - I have a file number for ref - that`s it as of now.

This is something I`m really thinking about, the good part for me is that when/if I retire I will have a pension - so I'll have money. I would just have to work hard to make more - which I would be willing to do...

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

...I don't know if this makes a difference, but I'm living in Edmonton, AB - so if there is anything else I should know about please advise..

buyandhold's picture
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Joined: 2008-09-23

Neanderthalman wrote:...I don't know if this makes a difference, but I'm living in Edmonton, AB - so if there is anything else I should know about please advise..
 
See the post on cold weather door knocking.
 

imabroker's picture
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Joined: 2007-12-22

I wouldn't worry much about the series seven at this point.  If you're disciplined in studying and following directions you will likely pass.  They really hold your hand through it. 
 
That said, I think that is one reason why Jones likes retirees, they are disciplined and follow directions.  But in my opinion the main reason they like them is that they come with a pension: that is they can often survive on relatively low income for years because it is supplemented.
 
You should spend more time deciding if you like cold-walking, warm-calling, and overall selling.  If the answer is yes, you can make it but it will take a while.
 
Good luck and thank you for your service.

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

...Thanks to everyone who responded! This is a good month for me, because I'm getting promoted and that help improves my pension before I retire..thanks again! Maybe I'll move to Hawaii LOL

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

So I'm guessing as I read the forums that the first 3yrs are very important for an EJ FA, the contacts youu make hopefully turn into clients - so when commission takes over you have something to work with.

Are the majority of the new hire receiving a "Goodknight"?...I hope I phrased that right.

How do you prospect businesses - what is normally offered to potential bussiness owner clients? Is this where the presentations come in handy (I'm sure they would be full of pie charts and analytical graphs - maybe a few jokes)?

Is the training regimented like the military? Broken down into stages etc...

Thanks for your time guys!

Bodysurf's picture
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Joined: 2008-08-02

Caveman,I'm former military also, also enlisted.  I did 9 years in the Army, so I didn't have a retirement package afterward.  As another poster noted, that will be an enormous benefit to you as you're building your book of business.  At least you'll be able to put food on the table during the slow months.The Series 7 should pose no problem to you.  That's the simplest part.  The challenge will come in building a business in the most challenging economic conditions in seventy years.  If you take the view that this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take business from advisors and firms that have had one disaster after the next, you'll do great.  Otherwise, you won't.  The military is not the world's premier meritocracy; the financial services business is.  If you work hard and are honest, you'll be successful wherever you go.  If not, you won't be, wherever you go.Check out a lot of these message boards to see what feels right to you.  Go back in the forum history.  There's a great cross-section of talent here, across all firms, and none of us are short of strong opinions as to what works, and we post accordingly.Good luck.

Neanderthalman's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-04

Thanks Bodsurf! I'm reading forums and I agree there is a lot of strong opinions - and suggestions here. Thanks for the positive words!

Independent's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-15

I think Jones is a great place to build a financial services career.  I am not biased, because I never work at Jones.  It is just my observation having worked in the independent world with a lot of former Jones reps that started their career there.  I started my career at EF Hutton where they would typically only hire three generalized personality types.  1) Former military; if management said take the hill, you took it.  If they say knock on 100 doors a day or make 250 cold calls, you will.  2) Former school teachers; they know how to communicate and convey a message. 3) Former athletes; this is a tough, tough competitive business.  Athletes love competition and hate to lose.  Tell them they are in the botton half, and they will bust ass to make it to the top quintile.  The reality is four out of five people getting into this business will fail within the first few years.  At Jones, you will be working in an office by yourself, so you had better be motivated.  You better also pay attention to the principles of marketing, because this job in the beginning is alot more about sales and marketing than it is analyzing and consulting.
 
I wish you the best of luck.

maddmatt's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-02

My payroll date with Jones is 2/2/09. After joining this forum I have had some light shed on the situation. It is apparant to me that it would be in my best interest to obtain a Goodknight or take over an office. My question is this: do I need to negotiate these things prior to my payroll date? My instinct says yes. However, I have never worked for Jones before so I do not know how they operate in real time. Any ideas would be appreciated.
 
 

buyandhold's picture
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Joined: 2008-09-23

I would go through the 7 training, KYC and the seven or eight weeks of training after that, all the while getting to know people in your region and looking for opportunities to get a GK. I think you're prospects to get a good situation are heightened if do well in training and make a good impression. You will also have more leverage.

B24's picture
B24
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Matt, you can't really negotiate much unless you are bringing over a book from another firm.  You will need to be sponsored by an existing FA, or otherwise prove that you deserve an open office before they would commit anything to you.

maddmatt's picture
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B24 wrote:Matt, you can't really negotiate much unless you are bringing over a book from another firm.  You will need to be sponsored by an existing FA, or otherwise prove that you deserve an open office before they would commit anything to you.
 
Appreciate the feedback.

Fud Box's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-08

I also have a start date of 2/2 with EJ. I've talked to probably 7 or 8 different FA's in my area during my hiring process. The impression I get is that the Goodknight program is basically invitation only like B24 said. They also have the Legacy program, although very few people seem to know much about it. From what I gather, it is basically sharing an office with a vet but no assets are given to you.
 
One FA I spoke to is currently in a Goodknight...he says if he had to do over again he would rather have the Legacy or start new/new. The assets you're given are generally low quality/low producing assets that take up some of the time you should spend prospecting with servicing accounts and convincing people your as good as their old FA. Also the goals are much higher (some cases 3-4X higher) making bonuses (a large part of the "average" 1st year earnings according to EJ) more difficult to reach. Of course this is just one experience.
 
Two separate veteran FA's (one 8 years, one 10 years) told me in no uncertain terms, that getting into an office could be a hindrance for a beginner. I thought it would lend credence and legitimacy to my practice, but their opinion is that it does more harm than good. You spend too much time in the office doing admin tasks or other BS (like "planning") rather than pounding the pavement to build your book.
 
Two sides to every coin. If I were you, I'd assume I'm starting completely new/new and mentally prepare for that challenge.
 
Good luck to you, maybe I'll see you in St. Louis.

jkl1v1n6's picture
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Fud Box wrote:
Two separate veteran FA's (one 8 years, one 10 years) told me in no uncertain terms, that getting into an office could be a hindrance for a beginner. I thought it would lend credence and legitimacy to my practice, but their opinion is that it does more harm than good. You spend too much time in the office doing admin tasks or other BS (like "planning") rather than pounding the pavement to build your book.
 
They're still saying that.  Drink it up man that's what Kool-Aid tastes like.  I will admit that you could spend too much time in the office and not what you should be doing.  But in my opinion the benefits outweight the negatives. Besides cold-walking in zero degree weather you could be cold calling on a 25 year FNMA bond.

Fud Box's picture
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They're still saying that.  Drink it up man that's what Kool-Aid tastes like.  I will admit that you could spend too much time in the office and not what you should be doing.  But in my opinion the benefits outweight the negatives. Besides cold-walking in zero degree weather you could be cold calling on a 25 year FNMA bond.
 
I hear you and I respect your opinion. Admittedly, I feel like having an office from the start definitely has its advantages. I can also see the other point of view. I'm brand new to this business, so I've spent a ton of time reading alot of these posts. I thank everyone that has offered a contrarian point of view, as it helps to balance the viewpoints of the Jones FA's I've spoken with on and offline. A recent article on this website says that approx. 80% of GK recipients "make it" and half that for new/new's. Whether those numbers are accurate or not, it's clear that GK recipients have a better chance for survival. However, as I mentioned previously it doesn't come with its disadvantages. I can't really control any of this, so the best I can do is work my tail off, try to find what works for me as quickly as possible, and learn as much as I can about the business.

maddmatt's picture
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Fud Box wrote:
They're still saying that.  Drink it up man that's what Kool-Aid tastes like.  I will admit that you could spend too much time in the office and not what you should be doing.  But in my opinion the benefits outweight the negatives. Besides cold-walking in zero degree weather you could be cold calling on a 25 year FNMA bond.
 
I hear you and I respect your opinion. Admittedly, I feel like having an office from the start definitely has its advantages. I can also see the other point of view. I'm brand new to this business, so I've spent a ton of time reading alot of these posts. I thank everyone that has offered a contrarian point of view, as it helps to balance the viewpoints of the Jones FA's I've spoken with on and offline. A recent article on this website says that approx. 80% of GK recipients "make it" and half that for new/new's. Whether those numbers are accurate or not, it's clear that GK recipients have a better chance for survival. However, as I mentioned previously it doesn't come with its disadvantages. I can't really control any of this, so the best I can do is work my tail off, try to find what works for me as quickly as possible, and learn as much as I can about the business.
 
FUD,
 
You did some good research. Good for you! I have to admit, I have been reluctant to speak with other FA's for fear of getting crapped out. I suppose I should go visit with a few. Other than the two that interviewed me (one 20 year guy and one 10 year guy both kicking some serious a$$), I have yet to talk with any others. I understand what others are saying about cold calling from the office. It was 25' today and I am in North Texas. I thought about what an a$$ whipping it would be to be knocking on doors in this weather. Then I remembered what I know about the car business: if they come out in shitty weather, they are buyers. No sane person would shop in the rain or snow. Conversely, the prospect just might think you have some awfully important news to show up at their door in freezing rain. Otherwise, you would call from your office, right? Here's the deal: they don't know you don't have an office. By the time they find out, you will already have built rapport. How do I know this? I sold insurance on a semi-cold call basis (ran leads) for years. Not one person asked to come to my office. This includes the $100K annuity clients. I am gambling. We all are. This market is the worst I have ever seen. I am 44 years old and I am convinced that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. My conviction and excitement will breed conviction and excitement. The man or woman who looks the customer straight in the eye and says "Mr. Jones, I know how you feel. I felt the same way when I was laid off from my job back in September and found out my 401K lost all it's yearly gains in less than 2 weeks. But what I found out is that there is a silver lining around every cloud and the good Lord didn't bring us this far to drop us on our heads. With that being said, can I come in because I'm freezing my a$$ off out here?!" will win. And winning is why I came to play. Good luck and I hope I see you in St. Louis (or Tempe?).

B24's picture
B24
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Here's my take on the office thing.  Taking over an office (a SMALL office) or getting a small Goodknight DOES hinder your performance (unless you are really structured).  Here's why....the first 6 months you are prospecting like crazy.  If i were to have had an office with a BOA, and a couple hundred crappy clients, I would have spent FAR less time prospecting.  You NEVER get those days and hours back, since your days just start to consume you after a while.  I was lucky - I spent 6 months in my house, then was offered a GK.  So I spent all the time prospecting, then got an office with a veteran and a few assets.
The best scenario would be to get a Legacy where it's not YOUR office and YOUR BOA and you don't have a bunch of $387.56 IRA's to deal with (or distract you with).  BUT, you have the office to give you legitimacy and confidence without the headaches, and possibly a veteran FA to push you out the door.
You CANNOT spend to first 6 months staring at the computer screen.  You need to fill that pipeline.  

F@C@'s picture
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Joined: 2009-01-02

No Vet wants to hand assets over to someone who won't make it. Get in and start working. When they see you are still around after any sane person would have then you will get the offer. I hear the odds of success are much much lower for a new/new.
 
madmat, I would highly recomend that you walk into a few EJ offices and chat with as many FAs as you can. You won't get crapped out. you will get some good advise.

Fud Box's picture
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B24,
 
I agree with your last post 100% re: Legacy over GK's. I've also heard the same sentiments from some of the new FA's I've met along the way. I start studying in a week, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. But how could I go about getting a Legacy plan? Seems like every senior FA I meet is doing a Goodknight with someone. I haven't met anyone say their doing a Legacy. Any thoughts?
 

SometimesNowhere's picture
Joined: 2008-12-22

Fud Box wrote:B24,
 
I agree with your last post 100% re: Legacy over GK's. I've also heard the same sentiments from some of the new FA's I've met along the way. I start studying in a week, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. But how could I go about getting a Legacy plan? Seems like every senior FA I meet is doing a Goodknight with someone. I haven't met anyone say their doing a Legacy. Any thoughts?
 
 
You are a couple steps ahead of yourself. I would make sure that you get a bit closer to your can-sell, then approach your RL when you have proven that you can do the contacts, pass the exams, etc., etc., etc., then ask if there are any places to Legacy. I have a friend that busted his butt, got out of Eval Grad and asked about open opportunities, and was given an office with a small amount of assets. If you have a good RL, they will ask around for space for you, which is a bit more powerful than a trainee looking to move into a vets office. Just my opinion/experience...

Fud Box's picture
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SometimesNowhere wrote:Fud Box wrote:B24,
 
I agree with your last post 100% re: Legacy over GK's. I've also heard the same sentiments from some of the new FA's I've met along the way. I start studying in a week, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. But how could I go about getting a Legacy plan? Seems like every senior FA I meet is doing a Goodknight with someone. I haven't met anyone say their doing a Legacy. Any thoughts?
 
 
You are a couple steps ahead of yourself. I would make sure that you get a bit closer to your can-sell, then approach your RL when you have proven that you can do the contacts, pass the exams, etc., etc., etc., then ask if there are any places to Legacy. I have a friend that busted his butt, got out of Eval Grad and asked about open opportunities, and was given an office with a small amount of assets. If you have a good RL, they will ask around for space for you, which is a bit more powerful than a trainee looking to move into a vets office. Just my opinion/experience...
 
Makes sense. Appreciate the feedback.

Mr. Jones's picture
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Joined: 2008-08-08

Hey Guys here some insight for you.  I am with jones and will be attending eval grad first of Febuary.  No matter how hard you think this job is, its worse.  It takes alot of discipline to get up every day and go out and door knock especially after a few weeks you begin to see what everyone on this forum has been talking about.  You know that out of the 100 doors you knock EVERY DAY many wont be home, those that are home are generally polite to start but you will  know within 30 seconds what kind of contact this will be, as soon as you say EJ or FA many turn off right there because all they hear is how bad the market is, others have a broker and are happy, most older folks love thier CD's and would never consider equities or bonds, and of course the aholes (i kinda enjoy them myself, breaks up the day)... but if every day you can get one person who really seems to like you and you connect with those are the folks your looking for.  It truly is a numbers game, you have to get your name out there to as many people as possible, out of these hundreds of contacts only a very few will every become clients.  The bottom line you have to find people who connect with you, like you and you can gain thier trust.  Its not about the firm or the mutual fund you have, it all comes down to "I like him, and fill good about him".  So with that said, if your willing to pay the price, and everyone is till you actually are out there day in day out.. anyone can be successful in this IF your willing to pay the price... FA failure rates are alot higher than you may know, close to 90% so when your at KYC look around because only 1 out of 10 will there in Three years.
Not trying scare anyone off but seriously think about what it really takes to make it in the business before you jump in thinking how great things will be, it will be pure hell for several years.
 
Also I highly recommend reading The New Financial Advisor by Nick Murray

Squash1's picture
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Joined: 2008-11-19

Says someone who hasn't made it past the first round with Jones....

SometimesNowhere's picture
Joined: 2008-12-22

Mr. Jones wrote:
Hey Guys here some insight for you.  I am with jones and will be attending eval grad first of Febuary.  No matter how hard you think this job is, its worse.  It takes alot of discipline to get up every day and go out and door knock especially after a few weeks you begin to see what everyone on this forum has been talking about.  You know that out of the 100 doors you knock EVERY DAY many wont be home, those that are home are generally polite to start but you will  know within 30 seconds what kind of contact this will be, as soon as you say EJ or FA many turn off right there because all they hear is how bad the market is, others have a broker and are happy, most older folks love thier CD's and would never consider equities or bonds, and of course the aholes (i kinda enjoy them myself, breaks up the day)... but if every day you can get one person who really seems to like you and you connect with those are the folks your looking for.  It truly is a numbers game, you have to get your name out there to as many people as possible, out of these hundreds of contacts only a very few will every become clients.  The bottom line you have to find people who connect with you, like you and you can gain thier trust.  Its not about the firm or the mutual fund you have, it all comes down to "I like him, and fill good about him".  So with that said, if your willing to pay the price, and everyone is till you actually are out there day in day out.. anyone can be successful in this IF your willing to pay the price... FA failure rates are alot higher than you may know, close to 90% so when your at KYC look around because only 1 out of 10 will there in Three years.
Not trying scare anyone off but seriously think about what it really takes to make it in the business before you jump in thinking how great things will be, it will be pure hell for several years.
 
Also I highly recommend reading The New Financial Advisor by Nick Murray
 
Why are you posting at 4:26pm? Shouldn't you be out doorknocking?

B24's picture
B24
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Mr. Jones wrote:
Hey Guys here some insight for you.  I am with jones and will be attending eval grad first of Febuary.  No matter how hard you think this job is, its worse.  It takes alot of discipline to get up every day and go out and door knock especially after a few weeks you begin to see what everyone on this forum has been talking about.  You know that out of the 100 doors you knock EVERY DAY many wont be home, those that are home are generally polite to start but you will  know within 30 seconds what kind of contact this will be, as soon as you say EJ or FA many turn off right there because all they hear is how bad the market is, others have a broker and are happy, most older folks love thier CD's and would never consider equities or bonds, and of course the aholes (i kinda enjoy them myself, breaks up the day)... but if every day you can get one person who really seems to like you and you connect with those are the folks your looking for.  It truly is a numbers game, you have to get your name out there to as many people as possible, out of these hundreds of contacts only a very few will every become clients.  The bottom line you have to find people who connect with you, like you and you can gain thier trust.  Its not about the firm or the mutual fund you have, it all comes down to "I like him, and fill good about him".  So with that said, if your willing to pay the price, and everyone is till you actually are out there day in day out.. anyone can be successful in this IF your willing to pay the price... FA failure rates are alot higher than you may know, close to 90% so when your at KYC look around because only 1 out of 10 will there in Three years.
Not trying scare anyone off but seriously think about what it really takes to make it in the business before you jump in thinking how great things will be, it will be pure hell for several years.
 
Also I highly recommend reading The New Financial Advisor by Nick Murray
 
I just did an un-scientific study of FA failure rates using the CLASS training system.  In my class in early 2006 (actually, like a 6 week span of classes), there were 380 people in KYC (the first training class).  Of the 268, 169 were still with the firm (it shows their current location).  So about 44%.  Not to say that those 44% will still be 44% a year or 5 years from now, but 44% retention after almost 3 years is not terrible.  And of the 56% that left, some may have left to go to other firms, so that 44% may actually be like 50% in terms of staying in the industry.  I also took a quick glance at a few classes in 2000, and the average was about 31% retention.  So 90% washout is a bit over-stated.
 

Fud Box's picture
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B24 wrote:
 
I just did an un-scientific study of FA failure rates using the CLASS training system.  In my class in early 2006 (actually, like a 6 week span of classes), there were 380 people in KYC (the first training class).  Of the 268, 169 were still with the firm (it shows their current location).  So about 44%.  Not to say that those 44% will still be 44% a year or 5 years from now, but 44% retention after almost 3 years is not terrible.  And of the 56% that left, some may have left to go to other firms, so that 44% may actually be like 50% in terms of staying in the industry.  I also took a quick glance at a few classes in 2000, and the average was about 31% retention.  So 90% washout is a bit over-stated.
 
That jives with the figures that were presented in a recent article (Jan. '09) about Jones on registeredrep.com. It stated that approx. 80% of Goodknight participants "made it" and roughly half that number for new/new's. So, a 40-plus perentage retention rate seems about right.
 
(http://registeredrep.com/advisorland/career/edward_jones_advisors_happy_0101/)
 
Of course, I don't know if the figures RR got from Jones are 100% legit, or how accurate B24's numbers are. The correlation does seem to lend some credence to those figures though.
 
 

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B24
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I can tell you that my numbers aer factual, based on a small sample size (though I am sure it is roughly representative of the overall numbers through that time frame).  I basiclly looked at the attendees (actual names) for KYC class, and it shows next to their name where they are currently working.  So if they are blank, they are gone.  So my numbers are true.  However, as you state, many of those are Goodknights or took over offices, so it's obviously a blended average.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

Retention numbers are interesting, but really kind of pointless.  This industry as a whole is very transitory and chock full of attrition numbers that only tell part of the story.  Of the original 60 in my KYC class, I'm one of 23 that have survived.  At least at Jones.  If I had the time...wait, a minute, I do...of the rest of them, through FINRA's Broker Check, some others went on to other companies.  LPL, WS, RJ, AIG, and Royal Alliance are some of the places.  Some of them jumped around to two or three places before landing where they are currenlty.  And that's been just over six years ago.  So, when reading retention  numbers, take them with a grain of salt.  Just because Jones may have a 50% attrition rate doesn't really mean that the industry does too.  After all, Jones does some of the best recruiting in the industry for LPL and RJ.   
 
The other thing that was glaringly obvious to me, not that it's good or bad, is how few people stick with the same company throughout their entire career.  A lot of the people I looked at have been with three or four companies in their selling career.  Seems pretty stupid to me to build up a book, move, lose 40% of it, build it again, move, lose 40% again and then finally stay where you are.  Think those moves are out of necessity or just looking for that greener grass?

Anonymous's picture
Anonymous

Losing 40% of your book is probably highly inaccurate.  I bet most people take 80%+ of their PRODUCTION with them. 

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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You may be right.  It still seems stupid to me to jump around to 3 or 4 firms in a six year time frame.

jkl1v1n6's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-06

Here's an un-scientific study for you. From my KYC class, from our individual classroom group there were two of us left.  I've been gone for 4 years.  Out of my roomates group, all were gone before I left and from a group of some other friends that I made while there only two were left before I left.  I don't know how many of us are still in the industry.Very un-scientific but very high rates of attrition.  I can't remember the group sizes maybe 10-12.  I should go pull out the photo they took of us when we "graduated".   The bars down there were a lot of fun though.

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