Merrill going to 250k minimum...

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DTA's picture
DTA
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After learning this, I am seriously thinking about going back to my independent firm. I have a great relationship with my old boss and we have talked recently about how I can come back anytime. He is looking to retire in 4 years and told me if I come back, I will take over for him. No if's ands or buts, I would take over his book and the firm.  My only problem is I need a salary. I was thinking I could offer a proposal that I look over my bosses clients portfolios (100 per year) and do a 60/40 split of whatever re-balancing I deem necessary  while I am building my book. He really doesn't have time to go over his clients portfolios the way they need to be looked at and it could be a win win for the both of us. I assume that at a $1000 average per client, that would be 100,000 grand and would afford me the opportunity to stay afloat and build my business.I just don't know how to approach him with this idea or if it is any good. Any input would be appreciated.   

Rique's picture
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Joined: 2011-12-24

Hasn't merrill been at 250k? Im a new intern there and they say 250k is their standard

FADavo's picture
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the "new" part of the 250 is you do not get paid on any relationship under 250K.  zero, zip.  someone has 249K and buys all A shares, the broker gets zero.Previously they were pushing 250K relationships but you got paid down to 100K.  If the other wires don't make the same move, I anticipate this causing a major flux.  in small and mid size markets this will cause serious disruption for people doing between 300 and 600K in production.

ZwingDing's picture
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Imagine writing a $200K VA. If you can't find a way to HH that with another $50K in assets you will get precisely $0 compensation. ML will keep all the comp. And, you can anticipate the HH police to be patrolling looking for non-kosher HH's.

mtnman321's picture
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ZwingDing's picture
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What it really hurts is PMD's.

DTA's picture
DTA
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Check my other posts. A PMD would be me. I have done the numbers with some colleagues and at the end if 3 years, you're most likely looking at a nice pay cut to about 30 grand.

DTA's picture
DTA
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ZwingDing ~ I will pm you about my thought process.I started this thread to not bad mouth merrill or the pmd program. I just wanted a little help in my approach with my old boss. Honestly, the pmd program has very extensive training, but the new compensation plan is no bueno for PMDers who have recently received their production number.

FADavo's picture
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Joined: 2011-06-27

I has much less impact on new PMDers.  you still get PCs for the produciton done under 250K, which means it will go toward your bonuses and hurdles.  I think it may cause some issues with the "type" of book you are building early, though, as you may be forced to take accounts early that do not pay later.  PM your thoughts to me as well.  The other guys in my complex were talking about how this might affect us.  We sort of came to the conclusion that it might be more painful for the guys that are 2 years into PMD as some of the low end scraps they are getting tossed are only going to pay for a few more months.  If you just got your number, you have 39 months of this not affecting your pay EXCEPT when it comes to the monthly incentive that would pay you on top of your bonus.  None of that matters, in my opinion, because I think that if the other wires choose not to follow this trend, then Merrill will either roll back the number to 150 or 100K OR they will stand to lose all their talent under 500K in production to UBS, MSSB and some of the regionals.  Perhaps that is there plan.  To me, it feels like a totally disconnected move made by a bunch of bankers that have no understanding of how the business works.  

mtnman321's picture
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Joined: 2011-06-29

There is definetly some confusion. We were told sub 250 in the pmd program will be paid and grandfathered in upon graduation.  Interesting times lie ahead.  

ZwingDing's picture
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Mtnman, <250K do indeed qualify for PMD comp. during the program. I haven't seen anything that says those accounts are grandfathered. What I read was that HH currently already in existence that are between 100-250 will be grandfathered. Come next Monday all new HH <250... ML retains the compensation for themselves. The slave masters will have a little more money to give themselves bonuses and pay for more travel junkets so they can create better strategeries and have more jumbo shrimp. Just always remember that when you're experiencing difficulties or see people get canned it is because they/you  are lazy and shiftless. it's not because someone's failure is hard coded into the system... Or that the system needs asset gatherers to fail so the few can inherit and survive. I saw nothing about an exemption for PMD's after they leave the program. Did you see something in print?  

mtnman321's picture
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Joined: 2011-06-29

No, nothing in print.Would it matter though? That 250 will go to 500 eventually. They have a plan, and unfortunately its on a need to know basis. As in when they dont need you anymore.  Unfortunately for them, not everyone is a lemming. Next few months will comical i believe.  And remember, management can have their expense accts lowered when the cigars explode.    

Kresge's picture
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So how much harder does this make it for a new FA in the PMD program?  What is the minimum a new FA can open an account for to count towards the PC hurdles...250K?

DTA's picture
DTA
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Kresge wrote:So how much harder does this make it for a new FA in the PMD program?  What is the minimum a new FA can open an account for to count towards the PC hurdles...250K?One word... ExperiencePeople say that there is no difference between closing a 100k account and a million dollar account but there is. Anyone who has a sizable portfolio already has an advisor and regardless how bad their advisor is, they will not let a PMDer with a whopping 12 months experience take over their account.

ZwingDing's picture
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Dear PMDer, thank you for your efforts. Please leave your assets at the front door as you make your way to the unemployment office. Please make sure you note up your contacts with anyone who might possibly be a future HH in Salesforce. The big boys will take it from here. We thank you for your work in the sweatshop and we want you to know that we have a fresh wave of marks ready to take your desks real soon. They, like you, will start out with great expectations. Write if you get work.And remember, you failed because you are lazy and you just generally suck.

Amber_M's picture
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Joined: 2011-12-26

Given these type of goofy rules....  What is the draw to work at a firm like this? Is it training?

DTA's picture
DTA
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So I am having a meeting with my former employer today. I am pretty confident about my plan and hopefully we will be able to come to an agreement.Merrill is a great place to work and my complex has provided me with great training. The 100k minimum was acceptable and made sense. This new 250k minimum leaves a PMDer in a situation where they might not do what is best for their clients so they can generate PC's and keep there job. Even if they are able to graduate the program, the sub 250k accounts that they picked up along the way to generate the needed PC's will be worthless and sent to Merrill Edge. The clients who are sent to Merrill Edge will not be happy with the PMDer and will not refer any business to them. Anyone who says that this change does not affect a PMDer while they are in the progaram and not to worry about it until they gradutate will have a rude awakening when they go 100% commission. Anyone who is not thinking about the long term consequences will most like starve out even after graduating the PMD program.The only option I see is to pool with a Senior FA who is going to retire in the next 4 years (since you have to be pooled for a minimum of three years to automatically transfer their book to you) and be some one's employee. Its a good deal if you can actually find and cultivate a relationship with a Senior FA who is willing to bring you on with the understanding that YOU take over their book.  

ZwingDing's picture
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Amber, training is dependent on the complex and local office. In my world training is minimal. In other places it's quite good. Don't believe the training is good because a hiring manager makes the claim. Ask to see their written training program. If they don't have one or its just the national stuff there is no reason to come to ML any longer. 

Otane's picture
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One advantage of Merrill is to stick around and collect assets from other departed advisers. I know many PMDs who have graudated because of this. Could they raise a dime on their own? I think if they had to dial a cold call they would s**t their pants. With the rules of FINRA, and your stupid compliance, and the additonal internal DNC you might as well learn morse code to get prospects. B/D is a dumb model and getting dumber. RIA is the way to go.    

DTA's picture
DTA
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I have crunched the numbers and its all pretty lame. You need 250,000 PC's to graduate:Merrill's plan is 30 million total AUM with 15 million fee basedFee Based: 15 million @ 1% = 150,000 PC'sCommission: 15 million @ an average of 3%= 450,000 PC'sDon't get me wrong. 600,000 PC's sounds pretty good to me, but 30 million in 3 years? It can be done, but unlikely for a newb to bring in 10 million a year.10 million a year is about 840k a month.The way I see it is that 600,000 PC's will earn someone at Merrill about $240,00(and yes, that is taking into account the quarterly bonuses.) In addition, PC's are not in direct relation to actual dollars. I have seen where $2500 equates to 2,250 PC's. Food for thought...At an independent you will not be able to ride the Merrill name, but you are looking at having to bring in about 15 million to earn the same amount. I am not saying that an Indy is the end all be all or the way to go. Just crunching numbers.Indy 15 million based on a 50/50 split$7,500,00 @ 1%= $75,000$7,500,000 @ 3%= $225,000$300,000= (on average) $240,0005 million a year is about $416,500 a month which is still a hefty number, but not nearly as large as 840k a month.What I am basically saying is that if you can bring in assets, you can bring in assets anywhere. *** A 70/30 split Fee Based to Commission on the indy side***Every 10 million should earn you about $112,0007,000,000 @ 1%= $70,0003,000,000 @ 3%= $90,000$70,000+$90,000= $160,000 @ 70%= $112,000 *** A 70/30 Fee Based to Commmssion at a wire***7,000,000 @ 1%= $70,0003,000,000 @ 3%= $90,000$70,000+$90,000= $160,000 @ 38%= $60,800This assuming the PC's match dollar for dollar.  

ECD's picture
ECD
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Well I just got my number as a PMD, and start Stage 1 the first of the year.  The small HH policy applies yes, but only for excess comp.  I was not counting on that anyway.  All PCs count towards the hurdle, which is now the only hurdle.  You take the good with the bad at a wire.  You have the name, the benes, the resources, etc.  I plan to jump in with both feet and hit the ground cold calling.  Already have a $250K+ account to start, so just building from there.  Any comments other PMDs? 

DTA's picture
DTA
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Excess comp? Wait until 3 years from now when you take a paycut because you won't get paid on HH's under 250k. I'm sure you'll be counting on excess comp then. Quit focusing on the salary and the short term and start looking long term.I'll admit that I am struggling with making a decision, but these kool-aide drinkers are killing me.

Kresge's picture
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Joined: 2011-12-26

Just a quick queston....so at the end of the PMD program you lose all of the HH's under $250K that you have in your book....upon graduation, can you only open a new household with a min of $250K going forward?  It seems that might be severely limiting and slash your numbers upon getting out of the program... Even Dave Mullin in his book talks about the need for $100K+ accounts in your quest to become a million dollar producer

DTA's picture
DTA
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I am certain it is a move by the Bank of America side. Just like when they tried to impose the debit card fee 2 months ago. They are just trying to find ways to increase their bottom line. Cheaper to pay Merrill Edge order takers 12 bucks an hour than paying mid-level FA's.You can open sub 250k accounts and have a year to bring them up over the 250k mark with additional assets.

Amber_M's picture
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Kresge wrote: Even Dave Mullin in his book talks about the need for $100K+ accounts in your quest to become a million dollar producer  There has been several studies which say 200-ish is the maximum number of accounts that an Advisor can properly service.  So to make the $1,000,000 GDC with a 1% fee (assumption) that means.... 200 accounts X ave sze of $500,000 X 1% = $1.0 mil Amber

Otane's picture
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Unless you are a well connected PMD you are not bringing in 10 million that will pay you 1% in year one. Even the veteran million dollar producers are not bringing in the 10 million per year at 1%, so what makes you think the PMDs can do it? You can only cold call since any other type of media is forbidden. In addtiion, you have to contend with the internal scrub list so you can take another 30% off of that list. Mullen said to call on 100k accounts? You know how many accounts you need to reach 10 mil? Forget the simple math, I am referring to the 1 out of 3 that may convert. So you need a pool of roughly 300 100k accounts  - that you have met and proposed to -  in  year 1. That is roughly 6 prospects a week after proposals.....good frikkin luck. This forces you to prospect at higher asset levels which means you need experience and knowledge. 500k min to prospect is making a proposal to 5 a month counting on that 1 out of 3 will hit. Good luck on getting a list that will specifically give you 500k and above prospects. Most of the producers stole their books (ripped it from their partners), inherited it, was handed assets by the resident director, or been there enough years (like 10) to get it from distribution when a broker left. Very few of the producers know how to initiate. They all say they can close, but if they never knew how to get an introduction how would they ever get the experience of closing?This is still a recession and competition is getting more fierce - the asset hurdles should not be pegged at delusional levels. Well, if you hare hiring just rich kids then it may be possible, but who is going to give millions to a kid who was born with a silver spoon up his......?     

therightadvisor's picture
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I've heard many of these rumors, but are they still rumors or is any of this actually confirmed and available to read internally?I had a conference call with my regional PMD coordinator two weeks ago, and she wasn't aware of any of these changes.I've heard the rumor of goals being strictly PC based, but this 250k minimum is also new to me.

DTA's picture
DTA
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Fact. Sounds like you missed the 2012 compensation conference call...

Mr. Net New's picture
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Must have also missed the compensation email with the new comp plans attached. 

Takingnames's picture
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DTA wrote:So I am having a meeting with my former employer today. I am pretty confident about my plan and hopefully we will be able to come to an agreement.Merrill is a great place to work and my complex has provided me with great training. The 100k minimum was acceptable and made sense. This new 250k minimum leaves a PMDer in a situation where they might not do what is best for their clients so they can generate PC's and keep there job. Even if they are able to graduate the program, the sub 250k accounts that they picked up along the way to generate the needed PC's will be worthless and sent to Merrill Edge. The clients who are sent to Merrill Edge will not be happy with the PMDer and will not refer any business to them. Anyone who says that this change does not affect a PMDer while they are in the progaram and not to worry about it until they gradutate will have a rude awakening when they go 100% commission. Anyone who is not thinking about the long term consequences will most like starve out even after graduating the PMD program.The only option I see is to pool with a Senior FA who is going to retire in the next 4 years (since you have to be pooled for a minimum of three years to automatically transfer their book to you) and be some one's employee. Its a good deal if you can actually find and cultivate a relationship with a Senior FA who is willing to bring you on with the understanding that YOU take over their book.   Read Mullens books; open under 250 accounts by opening them to the Edge program so you can get them back if they increase and grow a set.

DTA's picture
DTA
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Takingnames wrote:Read Mullens books; open under 250 accounts by opening them to the Edge program so you can get them back if they increase and grow a set. Grow a set? I knew this was coming. Since I have served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, I will assume my "set" is sufficient for this forum. It's actually said that in America buying a David Mullin's book and cold calling makes you a man.I am not talking about prospecting. Prospecting is hard where ever you work. I am talking about looking at the long term repercussions of what Merrill did and how it affects me. If I am going to work my ass off, I am going to do it where I come out on top, where I have actual equity and own my book, where I don't have to think about F'in PC's and where I don't have to log in with a NBK# because after all, I am just a number to that firm.  

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DTA wrote:Takingnames wrote:Read Mullens books; open under 250 accounts by opening them to the Edge program so you can get them back if they increase and grow a set. Grow a set? I knew this was coming. Since I have served in both Afghanistan and Iraq, I will assume my "set" is sufficient for this forum. It's actually said that in America buying a David Mullin's book and cold calling makes you a man.I am not talking about prospecting. Prospecting is hard where ever you work. I am talking about looking at the long term repercussions of what Merrill did and how it affects me. If I am going to work my ass off, I am going to do it where I come out on top, where I have actual equity and own my book, where I don't have to think about F'in PC's and where I don't have to log in with a NBK# because after all, I am just a number to that firm.  Baloney.  Your set qualifies you for the Army; not the financial services business.  It's a different battle.  The way I've built my practice is irrelevant.  Whining about being a PMD coming out of a training program is not going to help you. Learning to add by subtraction and learning to hunt better prospects will.   It's as easy to close a multi million dollar case as it it a 100k case. Spend your career working on 100k cases so you can get paid and you will have the skill set of a 100k advisor.   

Otane's picture
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There is a big difference between getting a 100k account and multi-million one. I know several guys who graduated  the PMD program and quit - they were starving. The problem is the idiotic hurdles which forces you into a horrible business process. You are forced to sell more one-off annuity and life insurance products then wrap accounts. If you are in a good office with turnover you will get your accounts through other brokers leaving. Otherwise, hook up with a broker ready to quit in 5 years. I have seen a broker with no clue become a million dollar producer from inheriting a book. I think he was better at serving coffee to the senior broker then picking up the phone. 

Takingnames's picture
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Otane - I said "It is as easy to CLOSE a million dollar account; as it is a 100k case".   Just because it's EASIER to find 100k cases doesn't mean their is a big difference.  Smaller accounts take up as much paperwork, time (and sometimes more time ); effort, insight, understanding, compliance and potential liability to your license as a million dollar account.  In the training programs I've seen, sure, there are guys that cling in  it for a few years and then fail. The ones that don't make it  didn't  "graduate" from anything. They got paid to get a license and got training to do a job. They had support, systems, office space, computers and access to research, data etc.  They didn't starve. They failed.  If they can't generate what it costs to support them, they go.  It's not exclusive to this industry; it's all business and it's the fundamental economics of business. People fail all the time. They make lousy parents; fumble the ball on a crucial play, their marriages fail,  they can't get a promotion, lose a road race, can't get a presidential nomination.  So what?  They still might succeed in some other way or at some other time, or some other place. Thoreau feels about right here "Most men live lives of quiet desperation" or something like that. People who don't make it at something simply couldn't perform at the level they were asked to (and I might add, that they indicated they could or would).  If they trimmed their pipeline and DID NOT try to pick the low hanging fruit, but instead had the discipline to seek out the fruit at the top and held out to get that and not do one off annuity or life products they might succeed. If they really worked to find the kinds of clients they wanted  - let's say their ideal are millionaires in a fee based account - they would simply have to work harder or smarter to find them.  Of course, not all millionaires want a fee based account. Some want an annuity. Others want a bond.  Some states have more millionaires than others - but the firms set the same requirements for all individuals.  Does that mean the FAs in some states are "luckier"? Baloney.  The demographics are known and the firm to firm competition is fierce - and big producers from one state will prospect the big accounts in another. This can mean that the new FA in a state with a lot of millionaires is at more of a disadvantage than one with fewer. The reality is that a lot of businesses start and fail every year.   A lot of newly minted graduates enter the work force every year - not all of them will be a CEO; top earner, etc.  The reality of this business is that some make it and some don't.  Some start at the big firms and they leave the business. Some go to firms with lower account thresholds. Letting your mind set weaken to say 100k is the way I'm going means that you are not going to play the way the rest of a team plays if a firm moves the target strategically.  It means that you are not tactically aligned.  I have to say, I guffawed clean out loud when I say your last paragraph. Sitting around hoping to inherit assets when someone else leaves the business is not a business plan. 

FADavo's picture
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Otane wrote:There is a big difference between getting a 100k account and multi-million one. I know several guys who graduated  the PMD program and quit - they were starving. The problem is the idiotic hurdles which forces you into a horrible business process. You are forced to sell more one-off annuity and life insurance products then wrap accounts. If you are in a good office with turnover you will get your accounts through other brokers leaving. Otherwise, hook up with a broker ready to quit in 5 years. I have seen a broker with no clue become a million dollar producer from inheriting a book. I think he was better at serving coffee to the senior broker then picking up the phone. I really don't see the metrics for how you "graduate" the PMD program and then quit because you are starving.  Unless you used daddy's money to buy a 10 million annuity, you should be walking about with about 150 in production which, at a 20% growth (which is completely reasonable considering the size of the book) means you would do 180K your first full year on the grid. Thats 72K a year.  People graduated POA (NOT PMD) and then starved.  ITs almost impossible to have "graduated PMD" and then be starving considering the PMD program, as it is now, did not start until 2008, which at 43 months (total program length) means the first classes only started rolling out 3-4 months ago.  POA =/= PMD.  POA was a joke where someone could ledger over 15 million in non performing assets and you would graduate.  

Otane's picture
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The metrics of the PMD is based on more upfront PCs then building a book based on wrap accounts. It takes at least 6 months to have wrap accounts converting, so the requirements from month 1 is to produce. PMDs have little choice but to push mortgages, annuities, and life insurance to make their numbers. If you think management will wait for you to build a solid business based on wrap accounts - think again. I am not advocating inheriting assets or waiting for advisers to leave, but a lot of books have been built on the back of these methods. I remember we had several brokers that retired and 300 million was distributed in the office. When brokers leave, 20% -30% usually stays behind. Do the math, and a lot of these brokers rarely busted their asses. There are a number of PMD managers pushing the trainees knowing they will fall off the map and collect their assets as well. All of this motion is built on the BD model of paying 200% for books of business. Once the model is extended in time, or if the BDs decide to quite paying these high rates then you will see more advisors quit the business.      

mtnman321's picture
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Joined: 2011-06-29

No doubt the program is to feed the corner offices. People who almost always inheirited their books. But that strategy was for ML lifers, and it remains to be seen if the Bank or its 5 dollar stock can even keep those guys in place much longer. they are currently hostage to them, and paying the ransom.   Meanwhile regionals  happily cash in on the pmd program too. Things are. very much in motion, i doubt trying to maintain old policy while implementing new policy at the time will work for much longer.    

Element's picture
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Joined: 2011-12-28

There will be a day soon where the wires regrest this decision.  Once the baby boomer advisors get out of the business they will have a big time talent drain.

DTA's picture
DTA
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This thread has taken on a life of its own which is good. I believe in communication from both sides of the coin. I see both sides. This career is still one of the best opportunities in America in my opinion. You have an opportunity to build a business. I agree with Takingnames to a point. Most people people have a employee mentality and its really not their fault. They might have had parents who worked for the same company for 30 years, received their gold watch and seemed happy throughout the years. Others are children of entreprenuers and have seen the low's and high's to being a business owner.If you work for a wire, be smart and have an exit plan if "their" hurdles become to much or you know you are falling behind. Anybody who was smart enough to be hired by one of these firms is smart enough to know when they are about to get the boot as well. Set your clients up in very non-sticky products, service the hell out of them and hope that most come with you when you switch firms or go indy. I have re-structured my thinking and I will take their salary and thier training and use it to my advantage. Most trainees at wires are reactive instead of proactive. Like I said above, bring in clients, keep them fairly 'slick' as opposed to 'sticky' and service the hell out of them. Always make them feel like you are taking care of them and make them feel safe. Never sell the firm, always sell yourself. I understand that I might have set a negative tone starting this post, but at the time I was a little shell shocked. I see good points being said on this thread. The main thing is that people at wires need to stop allowing themselves to be victims and start being proactive. Have an exit plan or strategy in place. Plant those seeds now and if the time arrises when its time to go, go, but take those hard earned accounts with you. Don't just shrug your shoulders while you are shown the door.My 2 cents...  

harkkam's picture
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Joined: 2011-09-23

Otane wrote:Unless you are a well connected PMD you are not bringing in 10 million that will pay you 1% in year one. Even the veteran million dollar producers are not bringing in the 10 million per year at 1%, so what makes you think the PMDs can do it? You can only cold call since any other type of media is forbidden. In addtiion, you have to contend with the internal scrub list so you can take another 30% off of that list. Mullen said to call on 100k accounts? You know how many accounts you need to reach 10 mil? Forget the simple math, I am referring to the 1 out of 3 that may convert. So you need a pool of roughly 300 100k accounts  - that you have met and proposed to -  in  year 1. That is roughly 6 prospects a week after proposals.....good frikkin luck. This forces you to prospect at higher asset levels which means you need experience and knowledge. 500k min to prospect is making a proposal to 5 a month counting on that 1 out of 3 will hit. Good luck on getting a list that will specifically give you 500k and above prospects. Most of the producers stole their books (ripped it from their partners), inherited it, was handed assets by the resident director, or been there enough years (like 10) to get it from distribution when a broker left. Very few of the producers know how to initiate. They all say they can close, but if they never knew how to get an introduction how would they ever get the experience of closing?This is still a recession and competition is getting more fierce - the asset hurdles should not be pegged at delusional levels. Well, if you hare hiring just rich kids then it may be possible, but who is going to give millions to a kid who was born with a silver spoon up his......?      Im in the ML PMD program and this is exaclty how we all feel.

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