Spiff-

  I'll take a stab that at some point in the future, after they have paid huge class action dollars, they will figure out how to manage every keystroke when it comes to orders.
You seem to be so strident that they can't manage your orders but they have the technology to know where your surf on their nickel. Calvin is squirming every time you respond. You are either so naive or so far up the GP's arse you can't see out of it. If you really did pass your 24 you would know that the ultimate responsibility lies with your manager. Why don't you take the time to ask someone who has that responsibility where the line is drawn.   As to E&O insurance, Jones is very clear that they carry insurance on themselves, not the FA and if the FA screws something up and the client loses, he will be expected to pay.   Spiff- Are you suggesting as an employee you are not protected representing their firm? If that is true...why wouldn't you carry your own E&O?   Unless you have nothing to lose...  

Moraen - No, EDJ didn’t have E&O insurance on you.  They have it on themselves.  If you would have done something illegal, they would have thrown your butt under the bus.  They have lawyers on retainer to cover the firm’s liability for your office (failure to supervise, etc), but those lawyers will make it very clear to you that they represent the firm’s interests, not yours.

  I think we're talking about two different things here.  I think you're talking about E&O that would cover my butt if I got dragged into arbitration.  The client would be saying that something I did, or didn't do, cost them money in some form or fashion.    I think this original thread was talking about the FA screwing up a trade and the firm fixing the problem.  There was a cost to the firm, not the client, and therefore the FA needs to cover the cost.  It has nothing to do with client losses or potential arbitration.      I think that's pretty clear at Jones.  You get taken to arbitration, Jones will provide you with legal assitance as long as you didn't do something you knew was illegal.  You screw up a trade, it's coming out of your pocket.  You do something illegal, you'd better find yourself a good attorney that represents you, not the firm.       Instead of just simply telling me that Jones is headed for a class action lawsuit (for what I'm still fuzzy on), or ranting about my S24 and ultimate responsibility, why don't you tell me what YOU think we should do to fix the gaping holes in our supervision of the average FA.  I find it interesting that you are long on accusations, but short on solutions. 

Spiff-

  Take off your rose colored glasses for just a moment. You are an employee. You can not legally be held responsible (even if you make a glaring mistake). Your employer should carry E&O to cover that. They have chose NOT to insure that liability. Someday a disgruntled FA will take Jones to court and the courts will find (just as they have with overtime lawsuits) that as an employee you are not responsible, the firm is.   To date, no one has taken Jones to court on this issue...yet. But as soon as they do and the GP's pay gazillions out, you will either have sufficient E&O to cover your mistakes, or better supervision or both. As I stated to you before, this is a legal discussion, and I am not a lawyer....but as far as I can tell, there is no differentiation between what type of industry (just whether or not you are an employee or employer)so Mr. Thierman is going to be on the prowl no doubt to take on the firms on this issue.   If I were a GP, I would be looking ahead as to how to deal with the next change. Technology will play a part in protecting the firm from glaring mistakes, it will have to adapt. At LPL, as an OSJ, I have the liability. If a trade is wrong, I pay, but I am the person signing off on my trades. Take it up with your IT dept, or maybe your managing partner.   One point I would like to bring up regarding your clarification of who the firm protects. In that arbitration that I went through the lawyers had no problem telling me that I was a pawn in the process and their mandate was to protect the firm first. It didn't make feel real good going through the process knowing that they could have settled the claim, I would have a black mark on my U4, and their was absolutely nothing I could do about it. As it turned out I was fine, but Jones paid because they failed according to the arbitrators to supervise.   The reality is Jones doesn't care about you and they certainly didn't care about me except that I hit the bogey every month. They put us on the front lines without any armor, and if you get hauled into court the lawyers are hired by the firm to protect the firm. Hope this doesn't happen to you but in my experience somewhere along the way it will. Spiff...how exactly are you going to protect yourself? When you get busy, when the phones are ringing off the hook, that's when problems occur. Now you have time...someday (I am assuming you will survive) it will happen to even the best brokers.

[quote=BigCheese]Spiff-

  Take off your rose colored glasses for just a moment. You are an employee. You can not legally be held responsible (even if you make a glaring mistake). Your employer should carry E&O to cover that. They have chose NOT to insure that liability. Someday a disgruntled FA will take Jones to court and the courts will find (just as they have with overtime lawsuits) that as an employee you are not responsible, the firm is.   To date, no one has taken Jones to court on this issue...yet. But as soon as they do and the GP's pay gazillions out, you will either have sufficient E&O to cover your mistakes, or better supervision or both. As I stated to you before, this is a legal discussion, and I am not a lawyer....but as far as I can tell, there is no differentiation between what type of industry (just whether or not you are an employee or employer)so Mr. Thierman is going to be on the prowl no doubt to take on the firms on this issue.   If I were a GP, I would be looking ahead as to how to deal with the next change. Technology will play a part in protecting the firm from glaring mistakes, it will have to adapt. At LPL, as an OSJ, I have the liability. If a trade is wrong, I pay, but I am the person signing off on my trades. Take it up with your IT dept, or maybe your managing partner.   One point I would like to bring up regarding your clarification of who the firm protects. In that arbitration that I went through the lawyers had no problem telling me that I was a pawn in the process and their mandate was to protect the firm first. It didn't make feel real good going through the process knowing that they could have settled the claim, I would have a black mark on my U4, and their was absolutely nothing I could do about it. As it turned out I was fine, but Jones paid because they failed according to the arbitrators to supervise.   The reality is Jones doesn't care about you and they certainly didn't care about me except that I hit the bogey every month. They put us on the front lines without any armor, and if you get hauled into court the lawyers are hired by the firm to protect the firm. Hope this doesn't happen to you but in my experience somewhere along the way it will. Spiff...how exactly are you going to protect yourself? When you get busy, when the phones are ringing off the hook, that's when problems occur. Now you have time...someday (I am assuming you will survive) it will happen to even the best brokers.[/quote]   Perhaps you can educate me a bit.  I don't have E&O insurance and have only briefly looked into it.  My recollection was that it is there not to cover mistakes that you might make in trading, but mistakes you make that land you in arbitration.  A trade error that results in a loss, but not arbitration, wouldn't be covered by E&O insurance.  And if I remember right, there was a per incident deductible.  So if you're taking a $30 trade loss because you sold too many shares and had to have your back office fix the mistake, E&O won't cover it.    Why is it that you keep talking about arbitration and failure to supervise and equating that with me placing a trade for an incorrect amount of shares?  Don't you see that they are two completely different discussions?  You really need to stop preaching to me about how bad a company EDJ is if you don't even understand everything that they do for me.  Of course they have E&O insurance on the firm to cover themselves if I get taken to arbitration.  Of course they're going to distance themselves from me if they find through arbitration that I did something illegal or unethical.  But up to that point, they'll go out of their pocket to try and protect the firm and my interests.  I've not been through arbitration, but I've been through a situation that could have ended up there.  Jones spent a lot of money on attorneys to make sure that I had good representation in that situation.    I'm still not with you that Jones is responsible for my mistakes.  They still can't read my mind or listen in on the conversation with a client.  They don't know, and won't ever be able to know before the trade is placed, what my client actually told me to do.  When you're placing a stock trade and it fills in 10 seconds or less, there's not a system in the world that will allow someone who wasn't in the room with me to catch my mistakes.  If I make one, and I do every so often, I expect to pay for it.  If I worked at a grocery store and my drawer ended up $20 short, it means I didn't do my job correctly and it's more than likely going to come out of my paycheck that week.  If it becomes a habit, I'll probably lose my job.  I'd feel grateful if my employer patted me on the back and said, it's OK, it happens, don't worry about it this time, but don't let it happen again.    I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would take Jones to court over trade errors.  But then again, most attorneys who would take on a case like that aren't in their right mind.  I guess the days of personal responsibility are gone. 

Spiff-

  If you really need further clarification consult with an employement lawyer. Or perhaps check the FINRA website.

You must be too busy today to actually answer my question.  So, I checked the FINRA website.  It says that firms are required to have in place a "supervisory system and written supervisory procedures reasonably designed to ensure that such orders placed into trading systems are not entered in error or in a manner inconsistent with NASD rules."  Well, my assumption is that Jones has satisfied the regulators that our order entry systems and supervisory systems are reasonably designed to stem the number of erroneous trades placed.  If they hadn't, we wouldn't be able to place any trades.  I think that word "reasonably" is important too.  I don't believe FINRA expects a supervisor to be a mind reader. 

I couldn't find any specific references to trade corrections or errors and omissions.  Not that it's not there, I just didn't want to waste any more time looking.  3 hours was enough. So, evidently FINRA must not have a ruling on whether or not it is against the rules to charge us with losses on trade corrections.  In that case, it's more than likely up to the rules of the state.      Just FYI, I've tried a couple of different ways of entering trades in our decades old green screens that might actually cause a problem.  I've tried selling shares short (sytem tells me there aren't any of those shares in that account), placing a trade for 1,000,000 shares (it tells me the trade is more than $100K and asks if I want to continue), buying a MFD in a margin account (can't do it), and some others.  Even a basic order has two different times that you have to look at what you are buying/selling and verify that the order is correct.  I'm just not understanding what different supervisory solutions are out there, short of a Vulcan Mind Meld with my FSD, that can stop trade errors.  But, you're the EDJ expert, you should know off the top of your head what we can do to fix it.   

How do you Jones guys get appointed with other carriers if you don’t carry E&O? 

  What do you answer on the appointment paperwork where it asks who your E&O is carried through and what amount?

But, you’re the EDJ expert, you should know off the top of your head what we can do to fix it.   

  Spiff-   You are the Jones expert on these forums. You know it all, and you have been designated chief spokesperson on these forums. Finra has rules about supervision, and you are probably correct its up to the states. As you know I live way left of Missouri where employees are treated much differently.   Suffice to say this. You pay enough for the firm to  pay for all of your mistakes ten times over. They haven't been forced yet (although some much larger firms are taking a much different position like UBS, MSSB )and its only a matter of time.   If you need to be correct today...consider buying a lotto ticket.    

[quote=BerkshireBull]How do you Jones guys get appointed with other carriers if you don’t carry E&O? 

  What do you answer on the appointment paperwork where it asks who your E&O is carried through and what amount?[/quote]   Jones does all the paperwork for us.  We just request the appointment from Jones.