[quote=dude]Why Iraq and not North Korea or Iran? 

[/quote]

You're complaining that we didn't invade them all? How about that fact that Saddam, by refusing to comply with a cease-fire agreement he'd signed, firing at our planes and plotting to kill a former prsident was in a category all by himself?

[quote=dude]Iraq may pay martyrs for targeting Israeli's, but where's the connection to 911? 

[/quote]

Who ever said there was a connection to 9/11? A connection to Al Qeada was proved, but 9/11?

[quote=dude]

Also, it was not a lie that high level Saudi's including Bin Laden family members were allowed to leave the country while there was a freeze on travel, who knows why it was allowed to happen.

[/quote]

Sorry, it was proved to be a lie. Re-read Richard Clarke's comments (he approved the trip) and the Senate report.

[quote=dude]

The main point I was trying to get across is that the news in this country is very narrow and misses a lot of important details.

[/quote]

I'm not here to defend the media, but you picked a bogus exmple.

[quote=SonnyClips]The connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam have proved specious Mike.[/quote]

Let's ignore the bounty that Hussein was paying for suicide bombers in Israel.

The 747 fuselage that he provided so that terrorists could practice for the real thing.

The fact that he did not comply with TEN YEARS of U.N. resolutions.

Just forget about the WMD for a moment, if you can.  (Most Bush-haters can't because that's all the Liberal media talks about.)  Have you ever considered the chilling similarities to Hussein and the early Hitler years?

We chose to avoid that fight because "it was so far away" and "it wasn't our business to mess with it".  By the time we did get involved most of Europe was under his domination, and it cost us far more to defeat him than it otherwise would have(not to mention all those who died in concentration camps).

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it."

[quote=SonnyClips]The connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam have proved specious Mike.[/quote]

No, they haven't. Reread the 9/11 Commission Report and the Senate Committee report. While there appears to be no "command and control" relationship there was, in fact, a series of contacts and cooperation between the two. In fact, Richard Clarke, in 1999 while defending Clinton's bombing of the infamous asprine factory mentioned a Saddam/AQ connection as reason for it.

I could be wrong about it, Sonny, but I don't see Saddam and AQ members sitting down to write a joint statement of aims and objectives. Probably something about that shadowy world of terrorism...

[quote=SonnyClips]I thought that the connection was that AQ was in the north of Iraq in a part that was outside of Saddams control but could be claimed as a reason for taking military action in the country?

The one I remember that was shot down was the assertion that there was a meeting in Belgrade or some sh*t that got debunked.[/quote]

There were many more connections than that, Sonny. Seriously, read the 9/11 report and the Senate Report. Like I said, Richard Clarke himself was on record in 1999 talking about and Iraq/AQ connection with the asprine factory and then later with the "Bin Laden might boogie off to Baghdad". Saddam was running a retirement home / RR resort for several different stripes of American killing terrorists including AQ members.

Who ever said there was a connection to 9/11? A connection to Al Qeada was proved, but 9/11?

So a connection to Al Queda (whatever that means) is grounds for war?  If that's the case you could count many others, probably to include most middle east countries...... that have a connection to Al Queda in some form or another.  Grasping, that's what this is all about looking for data to support an already decided course of action.  Give me a break about all the other crap; high level meetings (so what, who knows what the meetings were about, if they occured at all), the 747 for practice etc.....

Look, no matter how you try to frame it, there was no good reason to go to war in Iraq.  If there was no connection to 911, then why did we go to war there.  I certainly hope that our country comes up with more solid reasons for war than the sh*t we came up with for Iraq. 

I bet that we could find just as many or more reasons that make a hell of a lot more sense to start a war with North Korea or Iran than Iraq. 

The fact is we finally have a leader who takes action and Sept 11. During the 90's we took a passive approach by firing 80 cruise missles into Iraq and Afganistan in response to Cole, WTC I, Kobar, Embassy bombings, Somilia, terrorist camps and Saddam kicking out the inspectors. There was nothing remotly close to Patriot Act (did not want to hurt ACLU) or a challenging VISA system (did not want to hurt immigrant vote). At the same time Saddam was inviting exiled extremists into his country by the thousands. 

So we had a president who was week on foreign policy. Dude, what did he do against terrorism?? Albright assured us North Korea was only focused on energy. Cohen consistently stated "hundreds of thousands could die from one small bag of anthrax (as he showed example of small bag of flour)".

http://whosaiditiraq.blogspot.com/2005/11/william-cohen.html

Why not go into North Korea or Iran? Well we don't have too. political pressure is always the first answer. Iran did us a favor by voting in a wack job into power. Right now all of the world knows Iran can not have anything close to nuclear weapons. Everyone is jumping on board to say no way. Additionally these countries have not done anything close to what Saddam did.

Dude you seem smart. What I don't understand is I could sit with you for weeks and give creditable answers to most of your questions. Then Libs like you would come up with crazy new theories, Anti Bush crap and Michel Moore myths to counter anything productive.

The US taking action in Afganistan and Iraq has seriously hurt Al-Queda. Many of their leaders are dead or captured (Yes, dude Bin Ladin is still alive, but in a hole dieing from kidney failure (Hell awaits)). No longer can they bomb us and we just sit on the side lines. We will hunt them till the end of the earth. Hopefully they wont break free in Yeman :)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10 /28/waziz228.xml

Interesting.. There are a ton of articles out there like this.

[quote=dude]

So a connection to Al Queda (whatever that means) is grounds for war? 

[/quote]

No, dude, it makes them our special friends, especially when they also refuse to comply with UN WMD inspections, shoot at our plans, fund/train/rehabilitate/provide resorts for terrorists, plot to kill former presidents, have a history of the use of WMD.....

[quote=dude] If that's the case you could count many others, probably to include most middle east countries...... that have a connection to Al Queda in some form or another.

[/quote]

"In one form or another".... just incredible. Then again, if I thought all we really needed was an "open dialogue" with the people that killed 3,000 innocents on 9/11, who knows what else would seem rational...

 [quote=dude]

 Grasping, that's what this is all about looking for data to support an already decided course of action. 

[/quote]

We keep hearing that even though we know the intel agencies told Bush there were WMDs, "slam dunk" he was told.

[quote=dude]

Give me a break about all the other crap; high level meetings (so what, who knows what the meetings were about, if they occured at all), the 747 for practice etc.....

[/quote]

Yep, nothing short of Saddam's fingerprints on a bomb planted in the US by his terrorist pals would prove anything to you, and even then you'd find a way to rationalize it on some "yeah, but what did we do to them" "logic"...

[quote=dude]

Look, no matter how you try to frame it, there was no good reason to go to war in Iraq. 

[/quote]

Says the "we need an open dialogue" guy......

[quote=dude]

I bet that we could find just as many or more reasons that make a hell of a lot more sense to start a war with North Korea or Iran than Iraq. 

[/quote]

Some how I doubt you could, if you held a contest, overcome the links to American killing terrorists, 12 years of interfering with UN inspection requests, shoot at US planes, links to AQ, a history of using WMDs, etc., etc., etc..

Actually dude, I worry about how very detached from the reality of the situation you clearly are. See if you can get past your BDS and your "hidden agenda" conspiracy theories and simply read what bin Laden and other AQ members have said are their aims. Their own words. Then, once you have, tell me I'm "fear mongering".

Then go see that hole in the ground where the WTC used to be.

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=dude]

Then go see that hole in the ground where the WTC used to be.

[/quote]

That sorta sums it up all in one sentence.

These are mean nasty people and they want to kill us and destroy our way of life.  Do you people get that?!?

I watched them burn out my office window, not on friggin TV.  Spent much of the day trying to find clients and friends to see if they were ok.  Trying to reach my parents because they were on the road to come visit me at the time.  My cousin, who was supposed to be on a plane to NY.  Would have seen them fall but I'd walked away just for a minute, both times.  Just as well.

When there were no more calls to be made, I went home at about 2 p.m., and held my 3 month old son in my arms and wondered what kind of world he was facing for his future.

Several days later, sadly, I learned that my best man was missing.  I didn't even know he'd been transferred down there months before.  The never found so much as a piece of him.  Spent days hearing sirens as emergency vehicles rushed into the city for futile rescue operations.  Weeks wonderying worrying if the sh*t in the air would ruin my or my family's health. Months trying to get my damn head straight again.  This in the midst of a nasy bear market and snapback rally.

Go see the hole?  I was down there to pay my respects on 9/19/01.  When I got off the subway at Canal Street you could still smell it....the smell of burning flesh, electrical insulation, and god knows what else.  They didn't even have a chain link fence up around the entire perimeter yet.  The Customs House(WTC #5 I think) had not yet been torn down.  Fcuked up, was mostly what went through my mind.  Girders sticking out of the side of World Financial Center, the Deutsche Bank buildling ripped to shreds on the facade facing WTC.

The ambulances leaving the site.  You only had to watch for a little while before you started to understand that some ambulances left quietly and alone, becuase they carried (parts of) civilians.  Then there were the ones that left with the very solemn police motorcycle escorts.  those were the ones that carried dead cops and firemen.  "Casualties in the new world war" was the phrase that came to my mind at the time.

If Al Quaeda had done this to some countries, say Israel, the calls for revenge and the eventual actions would have been swift, merciless, and perhaps not even correct.  Frankly, considering our massive military advantage over most of the rest of the world, I think we were pretty restrained.  Can you imagine if they did something like this to the Israelis and they had our military might?  Afghanistan and Iraq would be smoking nuclear waste sl*g heaps right now, not budding democracies.

So GW II might not be the most eloquent when speaking off the cuff, and maybe he isn't a very good golfer and believes in a more literal inteprpretation of the Bible than I.  So what if he's 'inhaled' in the past, or had other issues with 'chemicals'.  So many of us have.  I know that he showed up at the WTC site when he didn't really have to.  Spent time consoling the rescue workers and the famlies of the lost when he didn't have to.

He promised us that he would do everything he could to keep this from ever happening again, and so far it's worked.  I believe and trust that he has his heart in the right place and does the best he can with the information he has available.

So I support his efforts whole heartedly. Saddam Hussein was an evil evil man.  Even if we couldnt' document direct links to 9/11 and Al Quaeda he was a known sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East and beyond, and flaunted any reasonable concept of human rights or a peaceful world order.  He had to go, and GW and Co had the balls to make it happen.

(Many of you haters tend to forget, too, that GW was the same man who, while toppling the Taliban also used planes to drop food and supplies to the people of Afghanistan.  When has that happened before in the history of modern armed conflict?)

(Shoot, if his Dad had finished the job over decade ago perhaps we wouldn't even be in this situation!)

Hate him all you want.  I think he's a good man doing a great job under very difficult circumstances. 'nuf said.

Bravo, Joe...I'm with you...

Now can we put this thread to rest?!!!

Thank you Joe.  Nothing like first person perspective instead of sideline carping from the peanut gallery. 

[quote=joedabrkr][quote=mikebutler222][quote=dude]

Then go see that hole in the ground where the WTC used to be.

[/quote]

That sorta sums it up all in one sentence.

These are mean nasty people and they want to kill us and destroy our way of life.  Do you people get that?!?

I watched them burn out my office window, not on friggin TV.  Spent much of the day trying to find clients and friends to see if they were ok.  Trying to reach my parents because they were on the road to come visit me at the time.  My cousin, who was supposed to be on a plane to NY.  Would have seen them fall but I'd walked away just for a minute, both times.  Just as well.

When there were no more calls to be made, I went home at about 2 p.m., and held my 3 month old son in my arms and wondered what kind of world he was facing for his future.

Several days later, sadly, I learned that my best man was missing.  I didn't even know he'd been transferred down there months before.  The never found so much as a piece of him.  Spent days hearing sirens as emergency vehicles rushed into the city for futile rescue operations.  Weeks wonderying worrying if the sh*t in the air would ruin my or my family's health. Months trying to get my damn head straight again.  This in the midst of a nasy bear market and snapback rally.

Go see the hole?  I was down there to pay my respects on 9/19/01.  When I got off the subway at Canal Street you could still smell it....the smell of burning flesh, electrical insulation, and god knows what else.  They didn't even have a chain link fence up around the entire perimeter yet.  The Customs House(WTC #5 I think) had not yet been torn down.  Fcuked up, was mostly what went through my mind.  Girders sticking out of the side of World Financial Center, the Deutsche Bank buildling ripped to shreds on the facade facing WTC.

The ambulances leaving the site.  You only had to watch for a little while before you started to understand that some ambulances left quietly and alone, becuase they carried (parts of) civilians.  Then there were the ones that left with the very solemn police motorcycle escorts.  those were the ones that carried dead cops and firemen.  "Casualties in the new world war" was the phrase that came to my mind at the time.

If Al Quaeda had done this to some countries, say Israel, the calls for revenge and the eventual actions would have been swift, merciless, and perhaps not even correct.  Frankly, considering our massive military advantage over most of the rest of the world, I think we were pretty restrained.  Can you imagine if they did something like this to the Israelis and they had our military might?  Afghanistan and Iraq would be smoking nuclear waste sl*g heaps right now, not budding democracies.

So GW II might not be the most eloquent when speaking off the cuff, and maybe he isn't a very good golfer and believes in a more literal inteprpretation of the Bible than I.  So what if he's 'inhaled' in the past, or had other issues with 'chemicals'.  So many of us have.  I know that he showed up at the WTC site when he didn't really have to.  Spent time consoling the rescue workers and the famlies of the lost when he didn't have to.

He promised us that he would do everything he could to keep this from ever happening again, and so far it's worked.  I believe and trust that he has his heart in the right place and does the best he can with the information he has available.

So I support his efforts whole heartedly. Saddam Hussein was an evil evil man.  Even if we couldnt' document direct links to 9/11 and Al Quaeda he was a known sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East and beyond, and flaunted any reasonable concept of human rights or a peaceful world order.  He had to go, and GW and Co had the balls to make it happen.

(Many of you haters tend to forget, too, that GW was the same man who, while toppling the Taliban also used planes to drop food and supplies to the people of Afghanistan.  When has that happened before in the history of modern armed conflict?)

(Shoot, if his Dad had finished the job over decade ago perhaps we wouldn't even be in this situation!)

Hate him all you want.  I think he's a good man doing a great job under very difficult circumstances. 'nuf said.

[/quote]

Thanks for sharing Joe.  Look, It's obvious that my point here is greatly misunderstood.  7GOD keeps calling me a liberal, proving his narrow vision and lack of reading capacity.  Just because I disagree with Bush's approach doesn't make me a liberal. 

Even though I appreciate the magnitude of what happended on 911 and agreed with the need to go to Afghanistan, I believe that the reasons for going to war with Iraq were tenous at best.  'nuff said

I don't think you're a liberal, though I may not agree entirely with you.

Part of what makes this a great country is that we have the freedom to express out differing opinions freely.  (Unlike in Iraq under Saddam.)

Well said Joe.

Dude, nice reasoned answer, even if I don't agree with all of it. I don't think you're misunderstood. I'm not trying to reopen a wound here, but could you tell me if you'd still think going to Iraq wasn't worth it if we had found WMDs?

You know MikeB, I really don't know if it would have been worth it.  I have some controversial opinions about the original Iraqi war.  Based on what I've read (not from conspiracy websites, I've already clarified that I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories)  Kuwait was angle drilling into Iraqi oil fields and was given assurance that we wouldn't get involved if Iraq invaded kuwait, in addition to a whole slew of other issues. 

You see, in my perspective I don't believe that getting MORE involved in the Middle East will do much to solve the real problem which is essentially culture clash.  No amount of bombs or guns will suppress the fanatics in my opinion; there's too much animosity (look at Israel).  My believe is centered around the idea that if we get tangled up in a mess like Iraq (the country is a f*ckin' powder keg ripe for civil war) we are more likely to help the terrorists recruit more people and keep on putting fuel in their fire.  It will be an endless, mindless feud.

You know I'm not a religious person but I do have great respect for Jesus and it leads me to say what would Jesus do?  What image do we want to demonstrate to the world?  Do we want to force feed our ethics and culture on everyone else?  You may not feel that we are forcing our ethics and culture on others, but I guarantee that MANY other countries feel that way.  Do you think we should care?  I do.     

Do I have the answers, no.  Call me a softie but in my life conflict has been best resolved with understanding (doesn't mean being a pushover) as opposed to violence (especially when your enemy is ambiguos and elusive).  Violence breeds violence, end of story. 

Look at Vietnam Mike.  That whole war was fought over what essentially boiled down to misunderstanding.  We were so narrowly focused on our fear of Communism spreading that we couldn't see the truth which is that Ho Chi Minh was interested in a relationship with us.  Fear escalates conflict and continues the cycle of ignorance. 

In any negotiation the challenge is to first understand then be understoood and from there to find a common MUTUALLY beneficial solution. 

Am I saying that we should give the terrorists a big hug?  NO!  In fact as I have said many times, it was a great idea going into Afghanistan.  What I am talking about is using extreme care in nurturing the East/West conflict, that's all.  Right now our country looks like a big bumbling clumsy oaf when it comes to handling the East/West conflict.

Dude, sorry for my bad judgement.

I just am amazed when a conservative thinks so negative about most aspects of the war against terrorism.

Everyone in America says "Hey hey Afganistan was okay." Then the war against terrorism splits. The left says we should have stopped there and let UN do their thing. The right says this war more then just Iraq. Some of the middle say we should have done more in IRAQ or we should pull out now.

Action in IRAQ and the massive amounts of success show the world you Fuc. with us and we will remove you. No more playing around.

Dude hope you have no hard feelings.

Hey Dude I think there is a difference when an army enters a country like Kuwait. They raped and murdered tens of thousands. Then when the world (not just the US) said "get out now!" Saddam said NO! Then when we made his army go he then lit every oil well in IRAQ on fire.

I don't see how people view this as US vs Saddam.. If you really want to think this you're biased. If you want to think an open Lybia, Iraq and Afganistan is a bad thing then you are dumb. If you think democracy in Saudi, Yeman, Kuwait, Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan is a bad thing then you love Michael Moore. If us giving aid to Pakistan, Turkey and Indoneisha is hurting their opinon of us your confused.

Of course the Liberal media can't show enough videos and pictures of small grounps of iggnorant children and terrorists burning flags and protesting. These people are in every country on the earth. They hate you since you are christian, American, have a new car or a westerner. The fact is if you are different and believe in anything that can loosen their power they would kill your child in front of you.

At times I suppose I am over the top on the right, but I just don't see negatives of us removing the worst dictator in the world.

EJ you really do need to work on your spelling.  You come across as being far more ‘iggnorant’ than you really are…!

Yeah I type so fast I mess up often. Okay I am an improving speller. Just got my GED so give me a brake.

Republican all the way!!!