I disagree, nobody with any real money would buy anything from some
fast talking jerk on the phone. I have no doubt that they made money
and ripped some people off. However, big transactions aren’t easy like
that unless you are their broker already or you have established 
rapport of some sort. Normally this means meeting them or at least
seeing what they look like. Newsflash, generally your HNW individuals
are very well educated and have worldly sense. Getting some dumbass to
buy $5k of stock b/c your a slick talker is one thing, but presenting
and convincing a real whale to hand over his money is something else.
The biggest misconception about sales ability is that you have to be
slick or smooth and have just the right things to say at the right
time. The real successful sales people in any industry work their ass
off, and have good rapport with the client.

Now, if you put those guys against GS guys in a used car lot, it would be a much different story, boiler room guys all the way



-Also I would like to say, I don’t know a fair amount, and I can admit
when I’m wrong, and I’m still learning a good amount as well, but
having said that I also know when I’m right!

I would put MS PWM up there with GS.  Look at the resources of the
top 2 investment banks on Wall St.  Things like Morgan Stanley
alternatives, Morgan Stanley Real Estate Group, Morgan Stanley
Consulting Group.  These are some of the best groups in the
industry.  I dont think any of you would know about that because
most of these products have a minimum of at least 1-2mm.  If you
come to a client with something like MSREF, a Thomas Lee feeder fund,
they just cant get this anywhere.  If anyone knows what they are
talking about, they know MS has a brand which is known as one of the
top 2 firms on the street, GS is very good too.  Wither way you
cut it, you would be in a very good position if you had to choose
between the two. 

[quote=rook4123]I stand corrected, I am clearly out of my element here. I will say this, though Goldman Sachs has one hell of a better reputation than Morgan Stanley. If you want to argue this, than I am all ears.

Sidenote-
The word on the street is that EDJ is forming a higher net worth division, that is why all the EDJ brokers are getting there series 66. Maybe once they are set up, they will be like MS higher net worth division, but probably better
[/quote]

Yes you certainly are.  You are not aware that Morgan Stanley is pretty much on par with Goldman Sachs?  Maybe their 'retail' division is not as prestigious, but that is because it was Dean Witter.  Morgan Stanley PWM is old line Morgan Stanley all the way and every bit as prestigious as Goldman Sachs, albeit the Dean Witter/Discover merger and controversy of the last few years (including bad moves from Phil Purcell) has done some damage.

Maybe you are not understanding that Morgan's PWM is still a seperate business unit (although they are trying to merge Dean Witter with PWM) and is kept very segregated from the Dean Witter side.

[quote=rook4123]I disagree, nobody with any real money would buy anything from some fast talking jerk on the phone. I have no doubt that they made money and ripped some people off. However, big transactions aren't easy like that unless you are their broker already or you have established  rapport of some sort. Normally this means meeting them or at least seeing what they look like. Newsflash, generally your HNW individuals are very well educated and have worldly sense. Getting some dumbass to buy $5k of stock b/c your a slick talker is one thing, but presenting and convincing a real whale to hand over his money is something else. The biggest misconception about sales ability is that you have to be slick or smooth and have just the right things to say at the right time. The real successful sales people in any industry work their ass off, and have good rapport with the client.
Now, if you put those guys against GS guys in a used car lot, it would be a much different story, boiler room guys all the way

-Also I would like to say, I don't know a fair amount, and I can admit when I'm wrong, and I'm still learning a good amount as well, but having said that I also know when I'm right!
[/quote]

Disagree all you want.  I'll take San Fran's words (and other experienced contributors to boot) and my experiences over your hypothosizing any day.  The name is just a brand that has been built and ultimately relies on the sales ability of it's sales force.  The boiler rooms took their lines/scripts from Lehman Brothers, which has built a pretty reputable HNW business off the techniques you are critical of.

I'd rather look to guys like Martin Shafiroff over nobody's like you (and me) any day as to what is a successful approach or not.  It's my understanding that he made the Lehman system...he's the biggest broker there is bro.

whatever you say bro

[quote=rook4123]whatever you say bro [/quote]

Remember, you're the one who claimed that HNW's wouldn't buy something over the phone from someone they have not personally met or seen yet.

Well, that's exaclty how Martin Shafiroff built his 10 BILLION dollar book!  Not to mention the 10's of thousands of other successful brokers who have done it.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't.

You should also know that cold calling HNW executives is how many Goldman Sachs brokers still get clients.  This approach requires a good brand behind it though...like Goldman of course.

[quote=rook4123]I disagree, nobody with any real money would buy anything from some fast talking jerk on the phone. I have no doubt that they made money and ripped some people off. However, big transactions aren't easy like that unless you are their broker already or you have established  rapport of some sort. Normally this means meeting them or at least seeing what they look like. Newsflash, generally your HNW individuals are very well educated and have worldly sense. Getting some dumbass to buy $5k of stock b/c your a slick talker is one thing, but presenting and convincing a real whale to hand over his money is something else. The biggest misconception about sales ability is that you have to be slick or smooth and have just the right things to say at the right time. The real successful sales people in any industry work their ass off, and have good rapport with the client.
Now, if you put those guys against GS guys in a used car lot, it would be a much different story, boiler room guys all the way

-Also I would like to say, I don't know a fair amount, and I can admit when I'm wrong, and I'm still learning a good amount as well, but having said that I also know when I'm right!
[/quote]

I think the biggest misconception is that people with a lot of money are somehow immune to persuasion or are fundamentally different from mere mortals.

You hit the nail on the head, dude!

How many times have we heard of rich people being scammed by smooth talkers?

The point is, yes, GS PWM is very very good.  However, for some
reason everyone acts as if they are the supreme being in wealth
management.  MS is just as good and just as competitive with these
guys.  

Dude

Don’t worry I can and I will do it.

[quote=rook4123]I disagree, nobody with any real money would buy anything from some fast talking jerk on the phone. [/quote]

I tend to agree with that statement however, is the object to sell something over the phone or is it to just get an appointment to discuss the services offered?  This Friday I will be smiling and dialing for the first time in my life.  While I will be pitching CDs that have a great introductory APY, my goal is simply to get an appointment to sit down with the prospects.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

--WM

WM,

I believe you are with ML, so you should talk about the FNMA Step Ups or Tax Free Money Markets we have. PM me for more details if you'd like...

Thank you finally a little support

Rook,

You're getting support from someone who hasn't even cold called yet!!! 

I'd bet that most all of the truly successful brokers on this board built a good portion of their books with a slick pitch to those super elite super smart/above persuasion wealthy types over the phone.

WealthManager is an articulate, informed, well educated rookie and has value to contribute.  I'm not too sure that he carries the experience that is meaningful for the validation of your position though.

I read something today about MS PWM Division, I hold it in higher
regard than I did before, but it is still not Goldman Sachs. Dude, I
hope you realize this is all opinion, and there is no right answer.
Nothing can convince me that there is a better firm than Goldman, thats
just how I feel. And if a smart broker has great selling skills than
more power to him, but here again it takes a lot more than a few catchy
comments to get the big money, even I know this. However, I can see if
the prospect knows who you are and all that, and when you first talk to
them you are smooth than the big money could hit, but them not knowing
you at all, get real.

Before Morgan had all the controversy they were king of the hill bro....10 years ago you might have thought differently than you do today. 

If I was fortunate enough to be able to work for either of these firms, I'd go for Goldman first, Morgan (PWM) second personally.

Never the less, Morgan PWM and Goldman are equal competitors and I know of a couple scenarios where Morgan beat out Goldman for Billion dollar portfolios. 

Morgan Stanley (the old line company/investment bank) is every bit as cache as Goldman Sachs, although Goldman is leaner, more innovative and scrappier than Morgan in my opinion.  Since the merger and Phil Purcell's idiocy, Morgan has stalled while Goldman has excelled.  With Mack back, I expect the next 5 to 10 years to be a bit different.