Cfp
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[quote=Gordon Ramsey]Dude,
CLU is 3 more required courses over ChFC. ChFC requires 9. CLU requires 3 more for a total of 12 to get both designations. How much cross-over are there between the two designations? Just because I want the CLU after the ChFC doesn't mean I have to take all the same courses a SECOND TIME. Also, the best people who help business owners have the CLU. Yes, I've taken the retirement planning course. There's a LOT more to helping business owners than just retirement plans. How about buy/sell plans, key employee plans, estate planning for a non-liquid estate, etc., etc., etc. (Take a look at what HS331 & HS330 covers sometime.) Try reading the website you post from every once in a while. Note: I actually have the ChFC designation. [/quote]After I posted the last comment, I thought you were probably referring to both of the designations combined and not individually. It wasn't clear to me what you meant, so on that, my apologies. I know that the coursework is overlapped just like if I wanted to get the CLU now, I need to take 2 or 3 courses.
Buy/sell, key employee/non qualified deferred comp strategies, ss integrated profit sharing plan, estate planning for a non liquid estate; I learned all of this in the CFP courses as well.
You just wrote that the best people who help business owners have the CLU. Isn't this similar to when people say that CFPs are the best for individuals than people without CFPs?
Again, I think the CFP and the ChFC are the same quality of experience and education. I think the CLU is valuable as well, no debate about that.
I don't think it's the same - and I can't back it up really. It's just a feeling of mine. For my insurance license, we covered some stuff for business planning - but only enough to pass the exam. To do the things covered in the CLU courses... requires advanced knowledge and (more importantly) mentorship. Without the knowledge and mentorship, you can EASILY screw it up and then you'd have to spell the letters: E&O. Those cases use BIG dollars and require a great deal of attention to tax structure, beneficiary designations, etc., or you can really blow up the case. Think you have a problem with CPAs as an investment advisor? Try it when working with a business owner using business dollars to solve a business problem. The CLU has always been an accredited, educational designation. The CFP started out as a sales designation - and has morphed into something else. They are a voluntary SRO to those who have subjected themselves to them. I'm not sure I would trust a newly life-licensed person to advise a business owner on anything - especially on their own wisdom. It's MY opinion that if you want to advise business owners on business planning solutions, you had better get your CLU. You don't need it before getting started, but I think you'd better make plans to obtain it. The truth is that the public doesn't have a clue. The only people telling the public to talk to a CFP are other CFPs and NAPFA (which only has about 1,000 members). The CFP is a very worthwhile achievement. How does one compare themselves with an edge over the CFP? I'd talk about your TEAM or your entire FIRM to help you construct financial plans & strategies. Even with all my knowledge, I help you get the best strategy that my FIRM can provide, not just one person. You can say this even if you're independent. You have wholesalers and attorneys with every firm you do business with - mutual funds or insurance companies. They're all there to help you. So, just make yourself look more like a Verizon Wireless commercial to your client to stand behind the strategies you and YOUR ENTIRE TEAM can provide - not just the one person who thinks they can do it all because they have 3 letters after their name.
After I posted the last comment, I thought you were probably referring to both of the designations combined and not individually. It wasn’t clear to me what you meant, so on that, my apologies. I know that the coursework is overlapped just like if I wanted to get the CLU now, I need to take 2 or 3 courses.
Buy/sell, key employee/non qualified deferred comp strategies, ss integrated profit sharing plan, estate planning for a non liquid estate; I learned all of this in the CFP courses as well.
You just wrote that the best people who help business owners have the CLU. Isn’t this similar to when people say that CFPs are the best for individuals than people without CFPs?
Again, I think the CFP and the ChFC are the same quality of experience and education. I think the CLU is valuable as well, no debate about that.
BTW, the reason I worked for a financial planning designation wasn’t for the letters after my name.
The reason was since I was going to hold myself out to the public as a financial planner, I had better have a clue about what I was doing. I didn't trust my firm to help me learn it, so I used my firm's educational reimbursement program to get the knowledge myself. I did it to help me be a better advisor and do the job right the first time (and lessen the probability of ever needing to use my E&O). Basically, I did it to "cover my ass".[quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kidsBachelor degree requirement is only 3 years old (January, 2007). The majority of current CFP holders weren’t subject to such a requirement.
[quote=LA Broker][quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kids[/quote] "Well, Mr. Prospect, I agree with much of what he just said. I have 20 years of financial planning experience. I have taken and passed dozens of courses over the years. College is a distant memory. Your attorney and CPA are both clients of mine and your partner referred me to you. My level of ethics come from my parents and my belief in God and not from letters after my name. I have enjoyed getting to know you and am 100% certain that I can be of help to you. Despite wanting your business, I don't need your business. I would like to work with you, but I need you to be comfortable working with me. Therefore, there will be no further follow up from my end. If you would like to work together, please just call my office to schedule an appointment."[quote=anonymous][quote=LA Broker][quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kids[/quote] "Well, Mr. Prospect, I agree with much of what he just said. I have 20 years of financial planning experience. I have taken and passed dozens of courses over the years. College is a distant memory. Your attorney and CPA are both clients of mine and your partner referred me to you. My level of ethics come from my parents and my belief in God and not from letters after my name. I have enjoyed getting to know you and am 100% certain that I can be of help to you. Despite wanting your business, I don't need your business. I would like to work with you, but I need you to be comfortable working with me. Therefore, there will be no further follow up from my end. If you would like to work together, please just call my office to schedule an appointment."[/quote] I think you handled that pretty well. Like others say, 99% people will not ask, and for those who do you can probably overcome it like you demonstrated here. I do believe it will help those who have it if you market it right. Again, I don't think a CFP is high and mighty or even better prepared, I do think real life experience is number one, but I would rather have letters proving to those clients who care that I did additional education than telling them I do. The CFP is just another tool to use in your sales pitch along with selling your process, company (if you do) and money manager selection. If people are interviewing a few different guys it's nice to know you can seperate yourself or at least keep even if they also have a CFP. I would say what benefitted me the most having it is it gives me the confidence to have conversations about taxes and estate planning that I stayed away from in earlier years which opens the door to more business for existing clients.[quote=anonymous][quote=LA Broker][quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kids[/quote] "Well, Mr. Prospect, I agree with much of what he just said. I have 20 years of financial planning experience. I have taken and passed dozens of courses over the years. College is a distant memory. "Your attorney and CPA are both clients of mine" and your partner referred me to you. My level of ethics come from my parents and my belief in God and not from letters after my name. I have enjoyed getting to know you and am 100% certain that I can be of help to you. Despite wanting your business, I don't need your business. I would like to work with you, but I need you to be comfortable working with me. Therefore, there will be no further follow up from my end. If you would like to work together, please just call my office to schedule an appointment."[/quote] Doesn't that breach confidentiality?Nope. I wouldn’t do it without their permission. With their permission, it is simply smart business.
I don’t know why ANYONE in insurance or investments wants to get a CFP designation. Seems like a colossal waste of time to me.
http://www.americanfenceassociation.com/Consumers/WhatisaCFP/tabid/60/Default.aspxThis has been a pretty funny thread. Look, all just my opinion, no disrespect intended to those who disagree. The CFP is in no was a "beginner's designation". It won't "make" your career, but it certainly isn't a waste of time and means far more than a "sales designation". I wouldn’t recommend taking time out of other activities when you’re band new to the biz, but since you need at least three years of experience before you take the exam it really is not an issue as I see it. As far as competing with other advisors who might not have the CFP, it’s on my card hanging on my walls and I answer questions about it. Some prospects see it as critical others don’t even know what it means. I think what prospects do get is the highly defensive “it means nothing” answers those without it may provide, since prospects who ask about it have seen people they respect in the finance world say otherwise.
The CFP is a designation that’s more favored in the investment side of the biz, the ChFC CLU is more of an insurance designation. The additional course work to get the ChFC CLU after you’ve earned the CFP isn’t difficult. In fact none of the American College courses amount to a serious mental challenge, again my opinion. After I found out I’d passed the CFP the American College send me a notice about how to get the other. The CLU courses were particularly interesting.
To me the critical difference in earning the CFP versus what’s required to earn the ChFC CLU is the comprehensive exam (2 days, 10 hours, pass rate about 60%) required with the CFP. Otherwise it’s all just about getting past the pretty easy to pass American College courses.
I'm very much in favor of the knowledge picked up when one passes the classes and passes their CFP exam. However, we should certainly be able to agree that having a CFP doesn't make one an expert in any area of financial planning. It also doesn't allow somebody the legal ability to do anything dealing with financial planning. For someone who already possesses the knowledge that the CFP teaches, the only reason to get a CFP is for marketing purposes. Those are the reasons why it is a beginner's designation.
The difference between the achieving the CFP vs the CLU/ChFC is two fold. The CFP has less classes but a comprehensive exam. The CLU/ChFC has more classes but no comprehensive exam. CFP's think that it's a big deal that it's a difficult exam that's hard to pass. I don't think that it matters. The bulk of the people who pass the CFP exam would fail it if two years later, they were surprised with the CFP exam. This is also probably true for the CPA exam, bar exam, etc. Are these people worse planners, cpas, lawyers two years later. Of course not. They simply have developed more expertise in certain areas and have learned that life is open book so they don't have to memorize everything. People think that I'm anti-CFP. I'm only anti- CFP from a political standpoint. I think that they are bad for advisors and ultimately will be bad for consumers if the CFP BOG gets their way about how things should be done.[quote=anonymous]
For someone who already possesses the knowledge that the CFP teaches, the only reason to get a CFP is for marketing purposes. Those are the reasons why it is a beginner's designation.
[/quote] Sure is easy to say someone already possesses something, isn't it?[quote=alwaysaguest][quote=anonymous]
For someone who already possesses the knowledge that the CFP teaches, the only reason to get a CFP is for marketing purposes. Those are the reasons why it is a beginner's designation.
[/quote] Sure is easy to say someone already possesses something, isn't it?[/quote] A CFP who took the test 3 years ago would fail the exam if someone showed up at their today and said take it now. If someone told me to take the exam today, I would also fail. However, I am not talking about the knowledge to pass the CFP exam today. I am talking about the knowledge to do financial planning for my clients. Yes, it is easy to say that I possess something. It is also true that I have that knowledge. An experience advisor who takes education seriously knows what they possess. Just as importantly, they know what they don't know.[quote=anonymous]
A CFP who took the test 3 years ago would fail the exam if someone showed up at their today and said take it now. If someone told me to take the exam today, I would also fail. [/quote]I don't know it you're right that a CFP who passed the exam three years ago would fail it today. In fact, I doubt it because I'm pretty confident I'd pass it and I took it over eight years ago. One thing's for sure, that CFP that you say would fail at least proved once that they'd mastered the material and that can't be said of those that never took the training or the exam and simply claim they know they‘re as competent.
I don't know you at all and I certainly don’t want to insult you. For all I know you could be the master of all thing financial planning and I know I‘m not perfect. I'll just say the belittling and defensive answers you’ve given about the CFP don’t seem objective or particularly professional. You can have the last word on this, I’ve said all I have to say on the subject.
I think out of the gate getting the CMT is the way to go as it teaches you about the market. After a few years in then the CFP maybe. The few in my office said it’s not brought them any business they would not have acquired without it. My manager said he would fire me if I started it within my first five years. I know most of you will laugh but if a newbie wants enough to have a clue, the CRPC if you actually learn it all cold vs. just squeaking through it for training is pretty good to start with.