Crazy? Maybe, Maybe Not
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I am in Texas, at the retirement home where my parents live. They
charge $5,000 per month for a one bedroom place–this is not for the
poor and downtrodden.
My father is the president of the resident board of directors and asked
me to come out here to help him conduct a meeting that focused on them
filling out absentee ballots. We did that yesterday and I
mailed them to the county yesterday evening–they’ll be delivered today.
Nobody, well except me, in the room was younger than 85 and several of
them are very opinionated–and they “debated” the pros and cons of the
candidates.
I mailed 52 ballots. I dont’ know with 100% certainty, but I
believe there were 49 for McCain and 3 for who was described as "that
black fellow with the funny name."
Among the debate points were the “He’s an Ay Rab.” One old guy
even muttered in less than a whisper, "I ain’t never not voted for a
Democrat, but I ain’t voting for no sand N-word."
Several heads nodded in agreement. You have to remember, this is
the World War II generation and it’s in the South. Many of them
are yellow dog democrats, “I’d vote for a Yellow Dog as long as he’s a
Democrat” is a famous line from somebody like Huey Long.
But not true this time.
The only time I talked was to explain why I thought it was important to
vote for Senator Cornyn (Sp?) because of the danger of a veto proof
Senate. Everybody–even the yellow dogs–agreed with that and
voted GOP for Senate.
As we were leaving, “The Multipurpose Room” some old guy wearing a
baseball cap that said “WW-II Veteran” on it came up to me to thank me
for being there, then added, "Don’t you just want to beat that Pelosi
woman with a stick?"
I grinned and said, “Or two sticks.” He laughed and wandered away on his walker.
They really were the greatest generation.
[quote=Provocative Put]They really were the greatest generation.[/quote]
One of the few things on which I agree with you 100%, putsy. We owe them a debt that we can never repay.
Unfortunately, I fear our children will one day be saying something similar about us, but it will be an entirely different type of debt that that cannot be repaid, but somehow must be anyway.
Exactly how much does Racism cost?One of the few things on which I agree with you 100%, putsy. We owe them a debt that we can never repay.
Exactly how much does Racism cost? [/quote][quote=morphius]One of the few things on which I agree with you 100%, putsy. We owe them a debt that we can never repay.
This idiotic retort is only understandable in the light of this earlier post:
[quote=anabuhabkuss]Hate to burst your bubble, but I wasn't born in the states and have lived the minority of my life here. [/quote]
Perhaps if your parents or grandparents had been the ones who suffered and sacrificed like those you criticize to preserve freedom for future generations across the globe - including no doubt those in whatever country you were born and spent the majority of your life - your smug comments critical of those heroes would carry more weight.
As it is, your comments speak much more loudly about your shortcomings than theirs.
Morf, so being a veteran of WW2 buys a person a pass on being a racist?
Morf, there's another thread on rr forums with some blantant racist comments. Not to my liking, but at least those posters aren't being disingenuous like many here are. The same could be said for Putsy's senior citizen's. At least they're honest. Still, they don't get a free pass.
I took ana's comment as an accurate read. Oh, and by the way, since it seems to matter, born in Hollywood Florida, son of a ww2 vet, grandson of a WW2 vet.BG,
Had I intended to say I agree with the comments uttered by a couple of individuals that putsy mentioned, I would have quoted those comments. I didn’t do that.
Instead, I simply quoted putsy’s reference to the well known title from Brokaws’ book, “The Greatest Generation,” and noted that I agreed 100% with the statement that I was quoting. That is, after all, the purpose of quoting a specific sentence rather than an entire post.
If you and ana want to label that entire magnificent generation as “racist” because of the purported comments of a few, you go ahead - it is your right as an American … a right that was preserved for you largely through the courage and sacrifice of those such as you dismiss as "racists."
I’m content instead to continue honoring them with “the greatest generation” label, despite the obvious rreality that not all of them, individually, were - or are - perfect. If we and the generations that follow in their footsteps turn out to be half the men and women that they have proven themselves to be, we should consider ourselves blessed.
Morph, let me clear it up for you. Putsy framed the greatest generation with one of their most negative traits- Racism. For whatever reason, he felt compelled to tell us a story of the racist in the nursing home voting for the white guy. Then called them The Greatest Generation. He didn’t wax on about them saving us from tyranny.
You agreed with him, that they were the greatest generation. In context, regardless of what you meant, it appears that you agreed with the racist atribute putsy hung on them. That's the way I read it, and apparently the way ana read it as well. Ana's comment to you was addressing the racist bent the thread had taken. By calling his comment an idiotic retort, in my view, you came off as defending the racist comments. And that's what I responded to. You can claim the high road as much as you'd like regarding the greatest generation. We all agree they saved us and deserve more than we can ever hope to repay. However, Put's comments serve to remind us that they were far from perfect, and there are some traits they passed down to us that aren't so noble. Honestly, after i read Put's post i considered it too toxic to touch and figured the group would let it sit. Wrong again.[quote=BondGuy]Morph, let me clear it up for you. Putsy framed the greatest generation with one of their most negative traits- Racism. For whatever reason, he felt compelled to tell us a story of the racist in the nursing home voting for the white guy. Then called them The Greatest Generation. He didn’t wax on about them saving us from tyranny.
You agreed with him, that they were the greatest generation. In context, regardless of what you meant, it appears that you agreed with the racist atribute putsy hung on them. That's the way I read it, and apparently the way ana read it as well. Ana's comment to you was addressing the racist bent the thread had taken. By calling his comment an idiotic retort, in my view, you came off as defending the racist comments. And that's what I responded to. You can claim the high road as much as you'd like regarding the greatest generation. We all agree they saved us and deserve more than we can ever hope to repay. However, Put's comments serve to remind us that they were far from perfect, and there are some traits they passed down to us that aren't so noble. Honestly, after i read Put's post i considered it too toxic to touch and figured the group would let it sit. Wrong again. [/quote] I am a racist. I hate the stupid race. I could care less if they are black, white, green or blue, I cannot stand stupid people. If an African-American calls the republican candidate "McBush", is that a racist comment? If I (caucasian) call the democratic candidate "Osama", is that racism? Using racism as a method of deflection to avoid answering any tough question posed to him diminishes Obama in my eyes. Belonging to a church that in their covenants lists "an undying loyalty to AFRICA" diminishes Obama in my eyes. Wanting to have the government take over health care diminishes Obama in my eyes. Pandering diminishes Obama in my eyes. Allowing partial birth legislation to die in committee diminishes Obama in my eyes. Preaching racial unity while promoting class warfare (which is a backdoor attempt against racial unity, just listen to the 2001 radio interview on youtube) diminishes Obama in my eyes. If he were white, I would feel exactly the same way.Primo, I agree with the first sentence in your post. The rest is bullshit. You’re the guy who tried to pass off the Obama muslim crap as fact. If nothing else, you are racist against muslims.
As for your rantings here, you pick and choose to fit your agenda. Everything you post is fact taken out of context, misfact, or is completely untrue. For example that post from a month ago misquoting passages from Obama's books. Your history of posting misfacts to fit your agenda gives you zero cred. It doesn't do much to help you out in the integrity department either. And spelling Obama's name as osama isn't racist, it's just dishonest. A clever way to make the false Obama -terrorist connection stick in the brains of the dolts you hope will make a difference next tuesday. On the other hand, McCain proudly said he had voted with Bush over 90% of the time. Yeah i know, different times, but only now with Bush's stock in the crapper, is John trying to distance himself. McBush isn't racist, or dishonest. just a clever way to make a fact stick. Bush and McCain have the same record, or nearly so. See the difference, Obama's camp is using facts and McCain's supporters are using lies. And still you are with the Mccain guys. i don't get it? And i don't want to.[quote=BondGuy]Primo, I agree with the first sentence in your post.Gotta start somewhere. The rest is bullshit. You’re the guy who tried to pass off the Obama muslim crap as fact. Go back and reread the thread, I thought we had this worked out. Of course, I wouldn’t want something like the truth to get in the way of one of your diatribes. If nothing else, you are racist against muslims. Just the ones that want to kill me. Of course, due to the fact that I am part of a racially mixed family, there are some bald white guys I also would be considered racist against using your definition.
As for your rantings here, you pick and choose to fit your agenda. Everything you post is fact taken out of context, misfact, or is completely untrue. Disprove one, just one thing from my previous post. For example that post from a month ago misquoting passages from Obama's books. Your history of posting misfacts to fit your agenda gives you zero cred. It doesn't do much to help you out in the integrity department either. And your posts reflect unbiased opinions and facts? Pot/kettle. And spelling Obama's name as osama isn't racist, it's just dishonest. Or, it rhymes with another gentlemen I do not particularly care for. The fact that you associate it with being a muslim, and associate muslims with terrorists says more about you than me. The proper spelling of his name would accomplish the same thing. Who is the racist? A clever way to make the false Obama -terrorist connection stick in the brains of the dolts So only dolts will vote for someone other than Obama? I think there are substantial numbers of people who will vote for each candidate for less than intelligent reasons. you hope will make a difference next tuesday. On the other hand, McCain proudly said he had voted with Bush over 90% of the time. Yeah i know, different times, but only now with Bush's stock in the crapper, is John trying to distance himself. As Obama distanced himself from Wright? The primary difference is McCain dropped it. Obama just keeps hammering the message. BTW, and please answer this question, do you honestly believe that a man Obama called a mentor, a life long friend, the man who married him, and presided over the church he belonged to made the "God damn America" and "the government created AIDS to kill the black man" comments only once? And only when Obama was not in attendance? He never said anything remotely similar in all those Sunday sermons. "I wasn't there" is not the answer I am looking for, I want your opinion. McBush isn't racist, Of course not, McCain is white. You can't be the victim of racism if you are white. or dishonest. just a clever way to make a fact stick. Bush and McCain have the same record, or nearly so. See the difference, Obama's camp is using facts But which "facts" are they using? As the economy is the #1 issue in this election according to the polls, let's ask a few questions. What was the economy like when Bush took office? Oh crap is was slowing down already before day one and a recession followed. Hard to blame Bush for that. What did Bush's policies do? How about pulled us out of recession, and gave us a 5 year bull market. Of course Obama does not want to talk about this as it does not fit his agenda (sound familiar?). He just wants to talk about the last year and 8 years of flawed policies that put us here. Clinton repealed Glass-Steagal. Clinton encouraged Fannie and Freddie to give loans to the underqualified. We are surprised that banks loaned money to everyone they could (that is how they make money) and then found a way using their increased available leverage to make even more profit? That is like putting a fat man in a room full of doughnuts and being shocked he ate them. Then being shocked when his health went south. Then blaming not the guy who let him in the room, but the guy who was there when he came out. and McCain's supporters are using lies. And still you are with the Mccain guys. i don't get it? And i don't want to.[/quote][quote=BondGuy]Morph, let me clear it up for you. Putsy framed the greatest generation with one of their most negative traits- Racism. For whatever reason, he felt compelled to tell us a story of the racist in the nursing home voting for the white guy. Then called them The Greatest Generation. He didn’t wax on about them saving us from tyranny.
You agreed with him, that they were the greatest generation. In context, regardless of what you meant, it appears that you agreed with the racist atribute putsy hung on them. That's the way I read it, and apparently the way ana read it as well. Ana's comment to you was addressing the racist bent the thread had taken. By calling his comment an idiotic retort, in my view, you came off as defending the racist comments. And that's what I responded to. You can claim the high road as much as you'd like regarding the greatest generation. We all agree they saved us and deserve more than we can ever hope to repay. However, Put's comments serve to remind us that they were far from perfect, and there are some traits they passed down to us that aren't so noble. Honestly, after i read Put's post i considered it too toxic to touch and figured the group would let it sit. Wrong again.[/quote]I know we disagree more often than not, BG, but after our exchange it seems clear that this particular issue appears to be much more a simple misunderstanding than an actual disagreement of the facts. If I understand you correctly we both apparently admire the greatest generation, and we both recognize that that doesn't mean we necessarily admire or even condone every belief of every individual that makes up that generation. Since there are enough topics to debate where we actually do disagree, often times quite dramatically, why waste unnecessary energy debating a topic on which we apparently essentially agree, once we get past the misinterpretations and misunderstandings.
Now about that Obama character you support ... that's another story!
[quote=BondGuy]
Oh my, I certainly did not mean to cause Bond Guy to get the vapors by mentioning that some 90 year old man used the "N-Word."
That certainly is "too toxic to touch."
Tell us, Bond Guy, how do you think you'd do at a Chris Rock performance? Would you be able to drag yourself to the door, or do you think you'd faint right where you were when he started his routine?
This, boys and girls, is what will happen if the nation screws up and elects the terrorist leaning Senator. Every time--as in EVERY TIME--somebody disagrees with him the Bond Guys will whine about how toxic it is to disagree with "The Chosen."
For example, if you're not in favor of mandatory charity you may be required to report to a central office where you will have a scarlet R tatooed on your forehead. It will be semi-permanent but will eventually disappear. Until it does everybody you see will know just what you are--one of "The Others" who dared to speak about "The One" in less than glowing terms.
Morph, +1, too much fun to be had debating area's we don't see eye to eye to let misunderstandings take up bandwidth.
Put- very tired argument. I guess this must be playing big in the south because it's not playing at all in the northeast. The race card argument that all those who disagree with Obama are branded as racist just doesn't fly. More fear mongering. On the other hand, those who say they won't vote for him because of his race, well they're racist. The people in the nursing home for example.
On the subject of race i believe we all have racist tendancies. Does that make us all racists? Probably. The goal is to move beyond those tendancies, become a tolerant person who sees people and not skin color. Much easier said than done. Chris Rock - I can take him for about as long as i can take most comedians 15 minutes. That said, i did watch his recent HBO special. it was funny. And yes it was racist. What can i say put, you're no Chris Rock. I'd rather listen to a funny racist than a misinformed one. Speaking of comedians, two I really like are Robin Williams and Lewis Black.[quote=BondGuy]On the subject of race i believe we all have racist tendancies. Does that make us all racists? Probably.
[/quote]BG, would you say this applies to everyone, or just to those who are not "people of color?"
I'm often confused at the argument occasionally heard that all white folks are to some degree inescapably and intrinsically racist, but those of color are not and in fact, some would argue, are actually incapable of racism.
I’ve not heard that argument. But i do think the term racist is applied to whites not to blacks hispanics etc. History is a merciless bitch, Jim Crow still lives in a lot of hearts.
I'd say my statement applies to all people. Al Sharpton- an obvious black racist- Along with jesse. Still, they are not who i meant- i meant everyone. The question isn't whether or not you are racist or have racist thoughts, it's whether those thoughts or tendancies govern the way you live? And can you rise above them? When you see John McCain- do you see a man or a white man? When you see Barack Obama- do you see a man or a black man? When you see John McCain-do you define him by his views or by his skin color? When you see Barack Obama- do you define him by his views or by his skin color? If you can define each of these men absent their skin color then you (we) have moved beyond race playing a role in our decision making. Unfortunately, we are seeing many who can not do that.On the subject of race i believe we all have racist tendencies. Does that make us all racists? Probably
It is the natural state of man to be tribal and wary of the other. When the Cro-Magnons lived in caves the group in cave A was not accepting of the group in cave B. Racism. Wariness of the other based on looks, speech, dress, tribal affiliation etc. is just a hardwired tendency in the human animal. And yes, we need to be aware of these tendencies and suppress them. What is really frustrating is the perception that racism is a one way street. Only white people can be racists. Believe me, from my experience I know that it is definitely a two way street. Black people can be just as racist and bigoted as any KKK member. We are already getting a taste of the political suppression of free speech in the way the Obamabots and even Obama himself throw down the racist card at any remark that is not praising of Obama. Socialist is evidently a code word for race. Liberal is now a code word for race. No criticism of Obama will be allowed without being accused of racism. We are going to have to tippy toe around verbally for the next 4 years if Obama is elected. Free speech is going to be a thing of the past. Kiss the first amendment goodbye. As to "the greatest generation" and racism. Sure. Some of them were and still are racists. People are a product of their environment and their culture and it is very difficult to change. I am probably the only person on this board who actually experienced the segregated South, even if as a small child and the wrongness of it made a profound impression upon me. I hope to God that Obama doesn't become President and it has nothing to do with his skin color. I despise his economic policies, his socialist programs, the dishonest way he has run his campaign, the thugs and criminals he surrounds himself with. I fear for our nation and our economic security. We are in for a very very very bad time if Obama is elected and his regime will change the nature of America as we know it from a land of opportunity and freedom to an economically depressed country with all the freedoms and charms of Cuba.[quote=BondGuy]I’ve not heard that argument. But i do think the term racist is applied to whites not to blacks hispanics etc. History is a merciless bitch, Jim Crow still lives in a lot of hearts.
I'd say my statement applies to all people. Al Sharpton- an obvious black racist- Along with jesse. Still, they are not who i meant- i meant everyone. The question isn't whether or not you are racist or have racist thoughts, it's whether those thoughts or tendancies govern the way you live? And can you rise above them? When you see John McCain- do you see a man or a white man? When you see Barack Obama- do you see a man or a black man? When you see John McCain-do you define him by his views or by his skin color? When you see Barack Obama- do you define him by his views or by his skin color? If you can define each of these men absent their skin color then you (we) have moved beyond race playing a role in our decision making. Unfortunately, we are seeing many who can not do that. [/quote] Bondguy, I am going to try and make this as toned down as possible to get my point across without being dismissed as a racist. I realize that prevoius statements I have made have been treated this way, and that is my own fault. I think the more important question is "Does Barack Obama view himself as an African-American who happens to be POTUS" or "Does Barack Obama view himself as the POTUS who happens to be an African-American"? In my lifetime, I have lived in multiple parts of the country, including the deep south. My experiences have shaped my opinions. In my experience, minorities in general (not always, but more often than not) associate themselves with their skin color first as the basis for their actions and beliefs. Example, the discrimination suit against MER for the retention package. Maybe because I am caucasian, I simply am unable to understand. I have considered the possiblity. I have never thought that I had to feel a certain way because I am caucasian. In fact, I don't even think about the fact that I am caucasian. In the two questions posted above, I fear that the first question applies. I feel this way not only because my previous experiences, but also by listening to Obama speak. Not what others have said, but what HE has said himself. If this falls under your definition of racism, then I will plead guilty as charged. I feel that the person elected should be concerned about America first. I don't get this feeling from Barack Obama.BG,
I don’t agree with the notion that we all - everyone - are racist, using the literal definition of that term such as this one: "a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human
races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving
the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule
others."
Note this definition refers only to the belief that one’s race is superior to others, etc. It does not mean that you do not notice skin color or even rise above it, it simply means that despite noticing differences you do not believe they indicate that the differences determine individual potential or achievement, or make races other than your own inherently inferior.
In that sense, and in response to your rhetorical questions about Obama, one could see neither a man or a black man, but a man who happens to be black, just as he happens to be tall and thin (and don’t even get me started on those ears!). Simply noticing obvious physical characteristics does not makes us racist - it makes us observant.
Believing that one or more of those characteristics make that person, and all others of that race, inferior to us is what defines a rasict.
As I said, using THAT definition, I certainly do NOT think everyone is a racist. Far from it. I may be naive, or it may just be the audacity of hope. (Couldn’t resist that one! )
“On the subject of race i believe we all have racist tendancies. Does that make us all racists? Probably. The goal is to move beyond those tendancies, become a tolerant person who sees people and not skin color. Much easier said than done.”
I think that there is a huge difference between racist and racial. Seeing skin color doesn't make someone racist. When you see John McCain- do you see a man or a white man? Does this make you sexist because regardless you see a man? Does it make you an ageist if you think that he's old? Does it make you a grayist if you notice the color of his hair. Does it make you a suitist if you notice that he usually wears a suit? Does it make you a racist because you see that he's white? It's all very silly. Your only sexist, ageist, grayist, suitist, or racist if you automatically think certain things of him because he has those traits. Noticing those traits just makes one an aware person. Racist comment: The next 100 meter champion will be black because blacks are faster than whites. Racial comment: The next 100 meter champion is more likely to be black because blacks are more likely to have the genetic traits that lead to world class 100 meter speed. Racist comment: Jim is faster than John because Jim is black.