BG, I find it pretty funny that the Tea Party is such angst for the big govt, and its supporters. Here is a loose knit group of concerned citizens that rail against big govt, and have put a target on the backs of Dems AND Republicans. The TP is real, and I think it's exactly what the country needs, a bunch of outsiders that have never been involved with politics. If we could just get term limits, we could rid ourselves of this eternal political corruption by BOTH parties. 

Seriously, I hate to break it to you, but the Democrat party is SOCIALIST. Arguing that, is frankly a waste of my time, it's obvious to... just about everyone.

It's time for "Don't Tread On Me" to actually mean something!

Democrat party is socialist; That's why they issued TARP back in....oh wait!

*cartwheels out of topic*

[quote=BigFirepower]

BG, I find it pretty funny that the Tea Party is such angst for the big govt, and its supporters. Here is a loose knit group of concerned citizens that rail against big govt, and have put a target on the backs of Dems AND Republicans. The TP is real, and I think it's exactly what the country needs, a bunch of outsiders that have never been involved with politics. If we could just get term limits, we could rid ourselves of this eternal political corruption by BOTH parties. 

Seriously, I hate to break it to you, but the Democrat party is SOCIALIST. Arguing that, is frankly a waste of my time, it's obvious to... just about everyone.

It's time for "Don't Tread On Me" to actually mean something!

[/quote]

Big, why do you keep coming back? This is a political discusion, you know, something you don't like to do.

That you think that the Tea Party is group of ordinary concerned citizens is, ah, quaint.  See, i was nice there even though you need to look up the players behind the TP movement.

I'll admit that i'm not a tea party expert, even though i seem to know more about them than you do. From what i can see every single Tea Party candidate is a liar trying to gain office by getting over on their core supporters. Again, a messege of this thread.

You can defend the liars all you want, though i question why you would do so. I don't need you or anyone else to try to explain away what I'm seeing with my own eyes. When you speak of the Tea Party candidates you speak in such virtuous terms. 'These are good people with a good cause." Yet lie after lie after lie inudates the airwaves.

[quote=FA86]

Hang on man...I'm not saying I march with the tea party but I will say that Angle and O'Donnell aren't representative of everyone running that is associated with the tea party movement. I think you are misreading the tea party and their sympathizers. Based on what I've been able to glean it is a movement predicated on the fact that spending is out of control. Scoff all you want but guys like Paul Ryan and Chris Christie are in fact actually doing something about it. Christie in action and Ryan is trying to start the conversation. I disagree with you on the power grab. Sure the power attracts people but it attracts candidates regardless of political stripe. That said, I want people in positions of power who are at least willing to have a discussion about spending rather than sweep it under the rug.

[/quote]

Christie is gov of my state and i voted for him. High marks for taking on the teachers union and killing the xanadu tunnel project. Low marks for costing us 400 mil in fed education dollars for no better reason than his ego. In the end he's a buffoon.

The tea party movment isn't grass roots. It's well funded by some rich business people who want Obama and his crew out. Thus, this isn't about money/spending/ out of control govt. Those are only the hot buttons to get elected. It's about power.

You look at their ads and even though you want them to win, you know the ads are lies. Yet, you are hanging your hat on these people to change DC?

Nothing will change. If DC is filled with liars today, we are electing nothing but a new crop. New day, new lie. Yet, this lie you believe?

then there is this, the bailouts were needed. If only to unlock the credit markets to avoid a complete capsize. the bailouts saved our butts from a massive depression or even possibly a total collapse of our country. this is no chicken little bullshit. if you were close enough to see the damage, you know this is truth. That said, these "it's a new day anti bailout tea partiers" get into office- what happens next time we need to be bailed out?

I could care less about all the lunatic ranting from these people. it's the damage they'll do the next time we need leaders to do the right thing.

BG, sure, every single tea party person is a criminal thug, racist, wife beating, child raping, murderer... What, because Olberman tells you so?

BG, I'll come back as often as I like, until folks like you change the law, make it illegal to express myself. Whether I want to post somewhere or not, please, be courteous enough to allow that up to me, ok?

Again, a discussion can be had without resorting to name calling, bullying and the like.

I'm going golfing. I'll be back...

But, first I'm going to check into the folks that think for me, you know, Karl Rove, Limbaugh, Beck, Sarah, and all those thugs at the Tea Party. Clearly, I'm unable to come up with a conservative thought in my own head, need their talking points...

[quote=BigFirepower]

BG, sure, every single tea party person is a criminal thug, racist, wife beating, child raping, murderer... What, because Olberman tells you so?

BG, I'll come back as often as I like, until folks like you change the law, make it illegal to express myself. Whether I want to post somewhere or not, please, be courteous enough to allow that up to me, ok?

Again, a discussion can be had without resorting to name calling, bullying and the like.

[/quote]

Express yourself? You come here with ridiculous anti government statements and when i ask you to back it those statements up you run away and hide. calling you uninformed is not name calling if it's true. An informed person can back up what they post and won't post anything they can back up. You aren't coming here to express yourself. You come here to rant and rave. Par for the course at the TP Club.

Still waiting for you to answer how healthcare is the biggest government heist?

Still waiting

Still waitng

One other point on Christie - the Xanadu tunnel was a dem controlled project. 9 bil going to democrat party faithful anf trough swillers. 300mil already spent and not a shovel in the ground yet. lots of dough to hand out in contracts. Christie killing this project isn't as altruistic as it might seem. It will eventually get reloaded as repub deal. Repubs, who were blocked out of the tunnel money party will be first in line at the feeder.

I'm happy Gov Christie killed it. It was a first class porker. But, he's not as clean as the repubs would have you believe.

Express yourself? You come here with ridiculous anti government statements and when i ask you to back it those statements up you run away and hide. calling you uninformed is not name calling if it's true. An informed person can back up what they post and won't post anything they can back up. You aren't coming here to express yourself. You come here to rant and rave. Par for the course at the TP Club.

I'll take this bait:

1. My property taxes are too high.

2. Too many regulations and taxes to warrant hiring a junior planner.

3. Cap gains going up 60% (rate of change) and ordinary dividends going up 190% with the expiration of Bush tax cuts.

4. My self-employed health insurance ( 5k deductible out of pocket) just went up 18%. Due for another increase in January.

5. Real unemployment here about 18%.

6. We'll see what happens with things like the tax free nature of life insurance cash values and death benefits. This type of "talk" is creating real concern.

" It's the economy, stupid".

My only point about you, BG, is that you are an irritating, aggressive progressive who likes to attack the cred of anyone who thinks outside the box. That's why we're kicking the box down.

You got greedy with your social agenda, now your group is going to be punished.

Watch and learn.

BG, sounds to me you're a cynic more than anything else. I can see how that happens. I guess the only thing any optimist has left is uh...hope for....change? BTW you never responded to my offer on National Review and/or Weekly Standard.

[quote=FA86]

BG, sounds to me you're a cynic more than anything else. I can see how that happens. I guess the only thing any optimist has left is uh...hope for....change? BTW you never responded to my offer on National Review and/or Weekly Standard.

[/quote]

I like PJ O'Rourke but !!!!

Are you a Neoconservative?

Healthy cynic only. Far from giving up. Often a realistic view of the world is mistaken as cynicism. Epecially on a negative topic.

Let me reframe the debate:

We can all agree that lying is wrong. For example: Even though we only do right for our clients it's not OK under any circumstances, for us to lie to them to induce them to act. So, if lying is wrong, and it's not OK for us to lie,  why is it Ok for these TP and Repub candidates to lie?

Would you hire a professional who lied to you to get your business? Of course not!  Yet, these lying TP candidates get a pass? Someone's got to explain that one to me.

And, again, hanging your hopes for change on a group of liars is, at best, naive.

OK there you have it-the answer that seperates our points of view- I'm a cynic and you are naive. Settled!

Negative ads have been around forever. Remember how Obama said he would take the high road and bring us all together. Look at him now.

It is more the $$ behind the TP candidates that is talking. This concerns me, unions are the biggest contributors now on the progressive side. As always, the little guy will pay.

If people end up having to work longer for their social security, if the health care bill can be reversed, if there is more competition in the health care market, if government and union employees get axed, I will write a check for campaign 2012.

Next week is going to be a bloodbath.

[quote=Times7]

Negative ads have been around forever. Remember how Obama said he would take the high road and bring us all together. Look at him now.

It is more the $$ behind the TP candidates that is talking. This concerns me, unions are the biggest contributors now on the progressive side. As always, the little guy will pay.

If people end up having to work longer for their social security, if the health care bill can be reversed, if there is more competition in the health care market, if government and union employees get axed, I will write a check for campaign 2012.

Next week is going to be a bloodbath.

[/quote]

Negative campaign ads? We're talking about out and out lies. Why is that OK?

You really trust the liars to change things?

How can you trust someone who lies?

I don't. When you want to eliminate vermin, you destroy their environment, in this case, it's big government. If the Tea Party monkey doesn't push the "no" button, we'll install a new monkey. Things will change this time, and it's not the rich or government progressives or the broke people who will be calling all of the shots.

No, there is no one that I specifically support.  Trust will need to be earned, so it's out with the old and in with the "new".

I agree with you that there are a lot of lies and promises. At least we are moving in the right direction and done with the social organizer promises for "unity"  and rich San Francisco liberal nanny state BS, and maybe finishing up with the stupid idea that government unions and service worker unions can contribute any real growth to this American economy.

People like you who have achieved something in the private economy need to take a fresh look, and stop defending the status quo.

All of these negative ads are literally money talking, no different than the pagentry and glamor of the inauguration of the first black American president, which was a historic and noble thing. Still just money talking. Time to hunker down and get to work, everyone. The recovery is going to be slow, and this market is standing on thin legs.

The point isn't that the dems didn't deliver a fast recovery, the point is that there is too much taxation, corruption, and public intervention in the private economy. Call our intervention opportunistic, and yes, it is no different than what the dems did two years ago. You can't create growth from thin air, and no one really knows where the demand will come from to drive the economy. It needs to come from innovation, that's why the shackles have to come off.

Baby steps.

Come on over to the winning side, it's called the "no" party, Tea Party is different them harassing the repubs is the best thing we've got right now.

Baby boomers never did learn how to say "no".

Come on BG, naive?? I wouldn't say that. I'm a realist. I know the severity of the challenges ahead and how campaigners often fail to do what they say when actually in office. But you can't say that the lying is only happening on one side. Look at Grayson down in Florida. Look at his ridiculous Taliban Dan ads. That's about as scummy as it gets. I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying it happens on both sides. It's deplorable that anyone will willingly lie to be elected. I am at times wistful when witnessing commercials/promotions/advertisements from just about anyone not in our industry. I would argue we're held to the highest standards of any profession in terms of disclosure and transparency. I wonder what the world would be like if everyone were held to that standard. Alas, it'll never happen.

[quote=Times7]

It may be comforting for you to keep the debate focused on the right-left dynamic, but the real issues are things like entitlements, debt, regulations and the obstacles to innovation (for example, change in education in the public schools).

Tea Partiers are sick of corruption, big government, sending tax money to government union pension funds, obstacles to expanding small business.

You keep trying to define the playing field in terms of traditional politics, but there is a fundamental shift and resentment about things like: government jobs can pay better than private (if you can even get a private sector job), taxes are a huge percentage of gross income ( property taxes too high as a percentage of mortgage payments), it costs too much to add another employee, personal health care premiums just increased 18%, with another huge increase slated for January, in response to the new requirements.

These considerations are far removed from the sheltered luxury of your comfortable Wall Street financed magnanimous perch. You don't really know what's going on out in the trenches, you come off as being sheltered and aloof, like O's army of overeducated and soft handed theorists. You like to argue the details, and ignore the hard facts like: people need to work longer, government unions need to take pension cuts, the private sector needs to increase while the public decreases,  health care costs need to be controlled by allowing more private competition and reducing entitlements ( not popular with broke baby boomers).

[/quote]

Times7=Ghandi

[quote=Times7]

Express yourself? You come here with ridiculous anti government statements and when i ask you to back it those statements up you run away and hide. calling you uninformed is not name calling if it's true. An informed person can back up what they post and won't post anything they can back up. You aren't coming here to express yourself. You come here to rant and rave. Par for the course at the TP Club.

I'll take this bait:

1. My property taxes are too high.

2. Too many regulations and taxes to warrant hiring a junior planner.

3. Cap gains going up 60% (rate of change) and ordinary dividends going up 190% with the expiration of Bush tax cuts.

4. My self-employed health insurance ( 5k deductible out of pocket) just went up 18%. Due for another increase in January.

5. Real unemployment here about 18%.

6. We'll see what happens with things like the tax free nature of life insurance cash values and death benefits. This type of "talk" is creating real concern.

" It's the economy, stupid".

My only point about you, BG, is that you are an irritating, aggressive progressive who likes to attack the cred of anyone who thinks outside the box. That's why we're kicking the box down.

You got greedy with your social agenda, now your group is going to be punished.

Watch and learn.

[/quote]

Times7,

bravo, bravo, bravo

Im your new jock sniffer

Times7=

[quote=BondGuy]

[quote=Times7]

Negative ads have been around forever. Remember how Obama said he would take the high road and bring us all together. Look at him now.

It is more the $$ behind the TP candidates that is talking. This concerns me, unions are the biggest contributors now on the progressive side. As always, the little guy will pay.

If people end up having to work longer for their social security, if the health care bill can be reversed, if there is more competition in the health care market, if government and union employees get axed, I will write a check for campaign 2012.

Next week is going to be a bloodbath.

[/quote]

Negative campaign ads? We're talking about out and out lies. Why is that OK?

You really trust the liars to change things?

How can you trust someone who lies?

[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Wait, I need to catch my breath.  

You act as though the current legislators and administration people are angels who can do no wrong and who are only looking out for the public good.  And yet you have the cajones to call the TP people uneducated.  Those are some big ones my friend. 

You're not seriously implying that Pelosi, Reid, Frank, et al are completely honest with the American public and their specific constituents at all times are you?  Surely you're not saying that President Obama can stand up there with George Washington and tell us that he cannot tell a lie.  Surely your not that naive. 

[quote=BondGuy]Let me reframe the debate:

We can all agree that lying is wrong. For example: Even though we only do right for our clients it's not OK under any circumstances, for us to lie to them to induce them to act. So, if lying is wrong, and it's not OK for us to lie,  why is it Ok for these TP and Repub candidates to lie?

Would you hire a professional who lied to you to get your business? Of course not!  Yet, these lying TP candidates get a pass? Someone's got to explain that one to me.

And, again, hanging your hopes for change on a group of liars is, at best, naive.

OK there you have it-the answer that seperates our points of view- I'm a cynic and you are naive. Settled!

[/quote]

It took a while but BG you have drug me back in again.

You forgot to mention the lies from the Dems. All parties lie. I know that you know that, hell everyone knows that but we have to put someone in office. Many people vote against candidates instead of for candidates.

They all lie and the people are sick and tried of it. Bush wasn't perfect by any means. He expanded govt (Homeland Sec, Patriot Act et al) then nearly broke the country by funding a war that is often debated as unnecessary. If the economy continued from 2000-2010 like it did from 1990-2000 then the deficit would not be much of an issue. Hind sight says the war was definitely a poor decision financially.

2008 comes along and the cool breeze of Obama and his promises of "Hope and Change" breathe life into the voters. They are tired of the government not listen, someone besides joe sixpack must take the blame for the economy, unemployment, foreclosures et al. It is time for "Change" but the only option besides the repubs is a dem? That sucks but "Change" is what the voters want so "Change" is what they got.

I think the "Hope and Change" was sold as one thing and is being delivered as another. The people do not want MORE government, the people do not want MORE taxes (on anyone), the people are sick and tired of the repubs and the dems and have no other choice but to vote for the TPs.