The best job in the whole wide world

They forgot make coffee, buy doughnuts, shine shoes and clean up the vomit that’s being spewed.

Here we go again--fools sneering at things that should not be sneered at.

Being an intern at Scottrade is a far better college job than being a cold call cowboy in a chop shop--and will actually provide a more well rounded look at the business than being a cold caller at a wirehouse.

Newbie,

You fail to see my point of giving all of those who cry about "I can't pass the test" or "that seems like a lot of work" someplace to apply. Yes this post was done in fun, so stop trying to make it more than it is.

I was referring to the reference to cleaning up vomit–what do you suppose that meant?

[quote=SA_Jim]

Newbie,

You fail to see my point of giving all of those who cry about "I can't pass the test" or "that seems like a lot of work" someplace to apply. Yes this post was done in fun, so stop trying to make it more than it is.

Jeff, have you not gotten the message---there are a bunch of whimpering types who don't like to read things like, "Will fail."

Especially if you're not a producer between the ages of 23 and 35--when you shouldn't even be in the business in the first place.

How about 22?

[quote=NASD Newbie]I was referring to the reference to cleaning up vomit--what do you suppose that meant?[/quote]

Perhaps it was not meant to be serious.

Out of curiosity, NASD, how long have you been in the business and how old were you when you started? 

The silence is deafening newbie.  Don’t like to answer tough questions, do you?

As far as age is concerned, I think I can provide a decent perspective. 

I'm 29 with a wife and two kids and got into the business at 25.  In retrospect I would have waited quite a few years (at least 5 to 10 years) so my social networks could develop as well as my own personal situation (young kids are a MAJOR liability if you are interested in actually being a parent).  Also it is much more challenging to convince prospects to turn over their financial lives to a younger individual no matter how articulate you are (don't give me the B.S about it all "attitude" etc.....) since the majority of them are over 50.  It certainly can be done ( the vast majority of my clients are 55 plus), but is much more challenging.  If you are young you also are still working out who you are in this world and finding your life patterns.  Needless to say, I love this work but am seriously considering jumping ship (out of the brokerage world) and hoping that I may one day return with a deck stacked more in my favor.

Do not take this career lightly, it is getting more challenging by the day and is requiring a broader set of skills than the stockbroker of old.

I get the feeling there are a lot of kids out there with eyes bigger than their stomachs.

[quote=hubbabubba]The silence is deafening newbie.  Don't like to answer tough questions, do you?[/quote]

What's the tough question?

[quote=BrokerRecruit]

[quote=NASD Newbie]I was referring to the reference to cleaning up vomit--what do you suppose that meant?[/quote]

Perhaps it was not meant to be serious.

Out of curiosity, NASD, how long have you been in the business and how old were you when you started? 

[/quote]

NASD:

Here's a little help from your friends little guy.  Looks like the 60's were really good to you.

Out of curiosity, NASD, how long have you been in the business and how old were you when you started? 

Must I explain everything to you, newbie?  Now answer Broker Recruit's question.

[quote=hubbabubba]

Out of curiosity, NASD, how long have you been in the business and how old were you when you started? 

Must I explain everything to you, newbie?  Now answer Broker Recruit's question.

[/quote]

I got registered when I was twenty six, and I retired with thirty five years of service.

I became a member of the President's club in my second full year and was in it for the balance of my time in production.

I was way too young to be truly effective--but I was well connected because of my college activities.

Nobody should consider this business until they're at least thirty-five unless there are other factors at work in your favor.  The child of a rich family, the child of a well known local personality, a college sports star--that sort of thing.

If that's not there you're crazy to even try before you have credibility.

Although a little extreme, NASD's insights are pretty spot on.  Take heed young broker wannabe's.

I can think of better jobs. When I find it, I’m gone.

Dude, would your mentality change if you didn’t have kids to feed and a wife to take care of?

Partially, but not much.  NASD is mostly right on this one.  Build your networks, reputation, communication and sales skills before you try this career out.  You MUST hit the ground sprinting from day one without hesitation with the stamina and skills to finish the race.  To do that you must be prepared or you loose.

[quote=ezmoney]I can think of better jobs. When I find it, I’m gone.[/quote]

Bro with your attitude that would probably be a GREAT idea!

I don’t think there is any other career that can beat this, that is if the FA can handle the initial weeding out process.

I agree with many of the posts on here. I started mid 20s. Now early 30s. I would not do again at that point in my life. Too many lumps taken and too many years invested to quit now. It is to the point I earn (by my standards) a decent living. I bet I am 5-7 years away from making 150-200k everyone talks about. If I had taken the a different career track in my other field of study, I would have made about the same by then and more money along the way. I just hope the 20 after that make it all worth it. Don’t disregard what NASDNewbie writes about. Many of his posts seem pretty grounded compared to the true Newbs that critque his comments.

peanutbroker, it's time for you to switch careers.   You've worked 5-7 years and you're still 5-7 years form making 150K?  This is the wrong career for you unless you jump out of bed everyday excited for the day. 

Switch careers to something that you enjoy doing.  You'll be much happier and you'll make more money.  The skills that you have acquired will be very helpful in whatever comes next.

It sounds like your income is around what a 1st year rep in my firm makes.

[quote=anonymous]

peanutbroker, it's time for you to switch careers.   You've worked 5-7 years and you're still 5-7 years form making 150K?  This is the wrong career for you unless you jump out of bed everyday excited for the day. 

Switch careers to something that you enjoy doing.  You'll be much happier and you'll make more money.  The skills that you have acquired will be very helpful in whatever comes next.

It sounds like your income is around what a 1st year rep in my firm makes.

[/quote]

And what type of firm are you with?  How long had you been out when you first entered $150,000 on a tax return?

Our typical first year guy makes about $75,000.  I'm guessing that this is around where he is since he sounds to be around 7 years in and is still 7 years from $150,000.

On occassion, someone will make 6 figures in their first year, but not too often.   $150,000 is typically attained in year 3 or 4. 

I would assume that you were at this level in your 2nd year since you made your firm's president's club. 

I'm with a major insurance company and their B/D.  It seems to just be a much easier way to make a decent income in the early years and very large incomes when one becomes experienced.

Agreed anon it is easier to make big money with insurance. But at the end you dont really HAVE those clients. It’s more or less a one shot deal.  Why waste all that effort so that when you become an FA not too many of your ins clients would come to you (the ex-insurance sales man).

brothak, if you think that it's a one shot deal, you don't understand the business.  What makes you think that someone who works for an insurance company is not a FA?  Even if someone started just selling insurance, why would they ever become an ex-insurance man?  After all, is a FA who does not handle insurance as a significant part of their practice, a very good FA?

If I made a switch to ML or someplace similar, my payout on investments would be about half of what I currently make and my payout on insurance would be about 25%.

The reality is that the investing public does not think much of insurance sales people--most folks would rather go to the dentist than have an insurance salesman in their living room.

People who end up at a place in their life where they have meaningful investable assets came out of college and became aware of the caste system that is present in the financial services industry--consequently they know that the chances of getting good investment advice from their insurance salesman are almost non existant.

That said I do agree that those higher up the totem pole don't pay enough attention to insurance.  I am a good example--like all rookies I got my Life and Health license and I dutifully renewed  it.  I also only thought of insurance if the client happened to ask if I knew somebody who could sell him a life insurance policy.

I fancied myself as being better than the insurance agents--I was, but that's no reason to leave money lying on the table.

"The reality is that the investing public does not think much of insurance sales people" 

I wouldn't argue against that point.  However, if I do business as "Anonymous Wealth Management" and my B/D is owned by an insurance company and someone else does business as "Smith Wealth Management" and their B/D is owned by LPL, the investor doesn't know the difference, nor do they care.  They just know that I'm their financial advisor and their friend, colleague, boss, etc., referred me to them.

"I fancied myself as being better than the insurance agents"

I don't blame you for not selling insurance.  The wirehouse environment makes it unprofitable for reps to sell protection.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you weremore successful, dressed better, more knowledgeable, smarter, harder working, more ethical, gave better service etc, etc. than the insurance agents.   However, the one thing that you were not is "better".  They protected your clients and you did not.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about insurance.  My point of view is that it is something that we all know we need, and we all are easy targets when the time is right.

I believe that insurance agents are order takers as much as salesmen--the client is very receptive so all the salesman has to do is not piss them off somehow.

That is not the case with investments.  If for no other reason that the Financial Planning 101 teaches that getting your insurance in place is the first step.

How many young college graduates have been told, "Well, you could always sell insurance......"

"I believe that insurance agents are order takers as much as salesmen"

This is very true for property and casualty, but not true at all for life and DI.

The top insurance guys sell tons of whole life insurance.  Nobody "orders" whole life insurance.

[quote=anonymous]

Nobody "orders" whole life insurance.

[/quote]

And nobody should buy it--the insurance industry is not where you should turn with your investment dollars.

As A.L. Williams would say, "Buy term and invest the rest."

NASD, who mentioned anything about buying whole life with investment dollars?  A quote like this shows that you have very little knowledge on the subject. 

[quote=anonymous]

NASD, who mentioned anything about buying whole life with investment dollars?  A quote like this shows that you have very little knowledge on the subject. 

[/quote]

gassspp............

you dare question the wisdom of a fella' who dresses up his dog while on vacation, who also smuggles it into restaurants and unto airplanes, and also works part time for free in an ice cream parlor (while wearing his "brokers suit") without a health card?

what's wrong with you?
do you not recognize genius?

anonymous…I have been in the business less than four years. Maybe I should have been a a little less dramatic. Income for this year will be somewhere around 65 - 75k. I am sure it is much easier to make the bigger money dropping everyone’s money into 7.5% payout bonus annuities and 10% payout EIAs. I do bunches of CDs and bonds that pay less than 1.5%. Plenty of funds and stocks as well that pay a bit better of course too. I don’t do many VAs or EIAs, don’t find much use for them. Although have liquidated plenty of them as many of those insurance guys put those things into IRAs with the only justification for the extra cost is the death benefit. I imagine my production would be lots hirer if I got a 7-10% payout on every client, but I figure that eventually my clients will get wind of what is going on and my business will suffer in the long term. Some other advisor may review their account and say, “Why are you paying 3% annually for that investment when you could be paying only 1%. The only thing that you get for those extra insurance charges is that death benefit. Are you sure that it is worth the extra $6000 you are paying the insurance company every year to own that mutual fund through the insurance company? Why don’t we cut out the middle guy and go straight to the fund company and save you a lot of money.” I don’t want to lose accounts because I was greedy up front. $500k into A share funds = $8k gross. $500k into VA = $37.5K gross. It is not hard to understand why people at your insurance firm make so much so early.



The point of my first post was that it is harder to start in your twenties, although it can be done. I really like what I do, don’t want to change. It is just difficult starting from scratch with nothing but a company’s name behind you and a fairly good trainig program. I would not do again, if had to start mid twenties. I would wait a few years.

peanutbroker, my firm doesn't use bonus annuities nor do we use EIAs.  Our insurance income comes mainly from life, DI, and LTC insurance.  Less than 10% comes from traditional fixed annuities and  variable annuities.   The ones that we usually use only pay 3%. 

".. as many of those insurance guys put those things into IRAs with the only justification for the extra cost is the death benefit."

From this quote, it is safe to assume that you don't understand the living benefits of variable annuities.

Do the living benefits come at the expense of total return?

[quote=NASD Newbie]Do the living benefits come at the expense of total return?[/quote]

Absolutely. Just like your home and auto insurance comes at the expense of your total return on your human capital. You didn't know that?

[quote=peanutbroker]anonymous...I have been in the business less than four years. Maybe I should have been a a little less dramatic. Income for this year will be somewhere around 65 - 75k. I am sure it is much easier to make the bigger money dropping everyone's money into 7.5% payout bonus annuities and 10% payout EIAs. I do bunches of CDs and bonds that pay less than 1.5%. Plenty of funds and stocks as well that pay a bit better of course too. I don't do many VAs or EIAs, don't find much use for them. Although have liquidated plenty of them as many of those insurance guys put those things into IRAs with the only justification for the extra cost is the death benefit. I imagine my production would be lots hirer if I got a 7-10% payout on every client, but I figure that eventually my clients will get wind of what is going on and my business will suffer in the long term. Some other advisor may review their account and say, "Why are you paying 3% annually for that investment when you could be paying only 1%. The only thing that you get for those extra insurance charges is that death benefit. Are you sure that it is worth the extra $6000 you are paying the insurance company every year to own that mutual fund through the insurance company? Why don't we cut out the middle guy and go straight to the fund company and save you a lot of money." I don't want to lose accounts because I was greedy up front. $500k into A share funds = $8k gross. $500k into VA = $37.5K gross. It is not hard to understand why people at your insurance firm make so much so early.

The point of my first post was that it is harder to start in your twenties, although it can be done. I really like what I do, don't want to change. It is just difficult starting from scratch with nothing but a company's name behind you and a fairly good trainig program. I would not do again, if had to start mid twenties. I would wait a few years. [/quote]

Young man, "payout" is what the firm pays you. "Commission" is what the product pays. I sell VA's. The commission is 7.5% and my payout is 90%. For every million dollars in premium, the commission is $75,000 and I get paid $67,500.

Since you THINK you are in the same business as everyone else, you should study the vernacular.

[quote=knucklehead]

[quote=NASD Newbie]Do the living benefits come at the expense of total return?[/quote]

Absolutely. Just like your home and auto insurance comes at the expense of your total return on your human capital. You didn't know that?

[/quote]

The point is that when a financial advisor grasps for security instead of total return they are short changing their customers.

Most people are anticipating a far greater overall return than you're generating--they are slowly becoming disappointed and will eventually become angry.

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=knucklehead]

[quote=NASD Newbie]Do the living benefits come at the expense of total return?[/quote]

Absolutely. Just like your home and auto insurance comes at the expense of your total return on your human capital. You didn't know that?

[/quote]

The point is that when a financial advisor grasps for security instead of total return they are short changing their customers.

Most people are anticipating a far greater overall return than you're generating--they are slowly becoming disappointed and will eventually become angry.

[/quote]

If you give the clients informed choices they will be able to make that decision (security at a price or return with risk) on their own.  Setting expectations and educating the client to the pros and cons of investing is a major part of our job.  If you have done this in the very beginning and reinforce the concepts at each review, you will not have angry clients. 

Well... except for the ones that are "too stupid to help" and you should never have done business with them anyway.

As to insurance, it should never ever be sold as an investment.  Insurance is to accomplish other lifetime goals.

[quote=babbling looney]

If you give the clients informed choices they will be able to make that decision (security at a price or return with risk) on their own.  Setting expectations and educating the client to the pros and cons of investing is a major part of our job.  If you have done this in the very beginning and reinforce the concepts at each review, you will not have angry clients. 

Well... except for the ones that are "too stupid to help" and you should never have done business with them anyway.

As to insurance, it should never ever be sold as an investment.  Insurance is to accomplish other lifetime goals.

[/quote]

If they're capable of making informed choices they're capable of moving their account to Vanguard.

If you do a good job of educating them you make them confident enough to move their account to T Rowe Price.

The reality is they think that you folks are the silver bullet that is going to give them a near luxurious retirement.  You know you can't do it, but they don't.

How many of you have the courage to tell a client that even if they save 100% of their income it's doubtful that their self directed plan is going to generate enough income to allow them to retire?

If you really told them the harsh reality of their situation do you think they'd stay with you?

One of the worst things that ever happened in this country was the idea to transfer the obligation of planning for retirement to the individual. 

The average guy is no more qualified to know what to do than he could fly--and neither are 99% of the boys and girls running around with business cards that introduce them as a financial advisor.

Once again, Nimrod, your assertions are meaningless without some kind of empirical data.  Do you have this data?  Or is this your God-given opinion based upon your vast experience at dealing with clients?

You're still a moron.

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=knucklehead]

[quote=NASD Newbie]Do the living benefits come at the expense of total return?[/quote]

Absolutely. Just like your home and auto insurance comes at the expense of your total return on your human capital. You didn't know that?

[/quote]

The point is that when a financial advisor grasps for security instead of total return they are short changing their customers.

Most people are anticipating a far greater overall return than you're generating--they are slowly becoming disappointed and will eventually become angry.

[/quote]

If I told you what my returns are you'd think I was lying. Don't assume anything about me.

"The point is that when a financial advisor grasps for security instead of total return they are short changing their customers."

This is true if we assume the goal of the client is return on their principle.   If this is the goal, a VA is typically not appropriate.

Often, the #1 goal is return OF their principle with the #2 goal being ON their principle.  In this case, a VA can be a great investment.  It allows a conservative investor the opportunity to invest aggressively thus giving them the chance to outearn what their risk tolerance would normally allow without any chance of loss.

[quote=anonymous]

"The point is that when a financial advisor grasps for security instead of total return they are short changing their customers."

This is true if we assume the goal of the client is return on their principle.   If this is the goal, a VA is typically not appropriate.

Often, the #1 goal is return OF their principle with the #2 goal being ON their principle.  In this case, a VA can be a great investment.  It allows a conservative investor the opportunity to invest aggressively thus giving them the chance to outearn what their risk tolerance would normally allow without any chance of loss.

[/quote]

The word is principal--principle is something like honesty or belief in the Bible.

It's crazy to think that people are paying you kids fees so that they can get their money back.  If that was the goal they'd put their money in a jar under the bed.

These insurance based products with principal guarantees are not what people want--they expect you to show them how to turn $100,000 into $1,000,000 in ten years.

It's not going to happen, hopefully you know that.  You're being dishonest if you don't tell your client that they're expecting too much of you.

And you know damn well you're ripping them off with something that purports to defy the risk reward ratio.

Anonymous…I understand living benefits…for the first time they make owning an annuity inside of an IRA appropriate for those investors that are afraid of losing their money in the market. Every INSURANCE company uses them now as a rider for their annuity product(s). I have used in a few rare situations for people afraid of losing their money. But you know as well as I do, that the “insurance guys” put plenty of people’s money into annuities before these living benefits existed, and they did it for the higher commission. Period. Congradualations on doing lots of WL and DI. I believe DI is extremely important and undersold, because most brokers don’t understand it. I also believe that WL is way oversold. Too many car insurance guys selling the stuff to people that don’t understand.



All of that being said, I am on track at my firm. I am just skeptical that the average advisor at yours makes roughly double the first year.

NASD, they are putting money into annuities because they are not willing to lose any money.  They are not aiming for a zero % return.   They want zero to be the absolute worst case scenario.  I'm surprised that you can't grasp this concept.

For the people whom you reference trying to turn $100,000 into $1,000,000, I agree that a VA is inappropriate.  However, many people want to GUARANTEE that their $100,000 won't be less than $100,000 while at the same time they have a chance of having their money grow.

I tell my clients that they can expect to earn about 1-1.5% less per year, but that they can't lose money.  In my opinion, VAs are not appropriate for aggressive investors.  They are appropriate for conservative investors who need to invest more aggressive to reach their goals.

peanutbroker, thanks for admitting that VAs can be appropriate in qualified accounts.  Personally, I think that they are more appropriate in qualified accounts than in unqualified accounts in general. 

Plenty of people are unethical and do things for the wrong reasons.  We don't need to have a discussion about that because we can all be in agreement that this is wrong.

I've never met a car insurance guy who sells significant amounts of whole life.  Plenty sell UL which takes the worst characteristics of WL and combines it with the worst characteristics of term.

I can make it pretty easy to see how our typical first year guy makes $75,000.  1)They are required to keep a MINIMUM of 15 appointments a week.  2)They do lots of joint work  3)Typically, 50-60% of their income comes from insurance.

Tell me why I would want to use a tax deferral vehicle such as a qualified plan to buy a product that is already tax deferred.

Why not buy something very aggressive in my qualified plan and buy a VA outside of that?

Oh wait, I get it.  Your client doesn't have enough money to do both so you want to get as much chop as you can, while conning the client into thinking you're doing him or her a favor.

As I have said, you children are a compliance problem waiting to happen.  You can't spell, why should you understand things that are more complex than that?

[quote=NASD Newbie]

Tell me why I would want to use a tax deferral vehicle such as a qualified plan to buy a product that is already tax deferred.

Why not buy something very aggressive in my qualified plan and buy a VA outside of that?

Oh wait, I get it.  Your client doesn't have enough money to do both so you want to get as much chop as you can, while conning the client into thinking you're doing him or her a favor.

As I have said, you children are a compliance problem waiting to happen.  You can't spell, why should you understand things that are more complex than that?

[/quote]

I've easily written over 300 VA contracts and have not had ANY customer complaints. It's interesting how a has-been, like YOU, would judge a PRODUCER, like ME.

NASD, you have so much to learn.  I guess that you are also against growth stocks inside of an IRA since they are tax deferred also.

Please explain how the tax treatment that a product gets outside of a qualified plan has any bearing on whether that product is appropriate inside of an IRA.

Personally, I think that annuities get terrible tax treatment outside of a qualified plan and are much more appropriate inside of a qualified plan. Tax deferral of annuities is a negative and not a positive in many circumstances.

I agree w/anonymous…if he is truly doing annuities for the right reasons. Most people have way too much deferred money. Another deferred account is just another taxable event when the person uses the annuity for income. As for you knucklehead, 300+ annuity contracts makes you smell like “one of those insurance guys”. Of course you haven’t had complaints, you people haven’t had them with you long enough. As soon as someone like me reviews their investments, they won’t complain they will just ACAT. Commission, commission, commission.



When I explain you can invest in this mutual fund it will cost “X” per year (in dollar figures not percentages) or we can buy insurance on the mutual fund and it will cost you this per year (again in dollar figures). Very, and I mean very few people choose the annuity. I find annuities good for those people you have been working on for a year or so to get some of their money invested in the market that just wouldn’t without a guarantee. Or, I find them good for those people that you know will be calling you every month because their “stock” lost value. Then I can say remember that return of principle insurance we bought?



I have found so many people invested in annuities that are still in their 20s and 30s!

[quote=anonymous]

NASD, you have so much to learn.  I guess that you are also against growth stocks inside of an IRA since they are tax deferred also.

Please explain how the tax treatment that a product gets outside of a qualified plan has any bearing on whether that product is appropriate inside of an IRA.

Personally, I think that annuities get terrible tax treatment outside of a qualified plan and are much more appropriate inside of a qualified plan. Tax deferral of annuities is a negative and not a positive in many circumstances.

[/quote]

Growth stocks are tax deferred?  How does that work?

If the client is investing within a qualfied plan anything that he does as far as active trading will have no current taxation ramifications--so why not use your qualified plan for agressive trading of individual equities, covered call writing and the like?  Go for the gold, reach for the stars.

Then put more money into a variable annuity for tax deferred growth and relative safety of principal--money above and beyond the limits of your qualified plans.

What is the negative tax treatment that an annuity receives outside of a qualified plan?

"Growth stocks are tax deferred?  How does that work?"

I hope that your question is a joke, but I'll answer it for the fun of it.

ABC Widget Company is a growth stock.  They don't pay dividends.  The client bought it at $10/share.  It is now $15/share.  How much tax has been paid?  None.   The tax is deferred until the client sells. 

According to your logic, this stock should never be purchased in a qualified account because it is tax deferred.

"so why not use your qualified plan for agressive trading.."

I agree if the investor is aggressive.  Try this with a conservative investor and they'll sell once they start losing money.  Try this with an older client and you may put them in a position where they can never retire.

"What is the negative tax treatment that an annuity receives outside of a qualified plan?"

1)Penalty on the gain if money is used before 59 1/2
2)Income tax on all of the gain instead of capital gains
3)On withdrawals that are not annuitized, gains come out first
4)No step up in cost basis at death

Stop thinking of annuities as good or bad.  They are either appropriate or inappropriate based upon the situation.

[quote=peanutbroker]I agree w/anonymous...if he is truly doing annuities for the right reasons. Most people have way too much deferred money. Another deferred account is just another taxable event when the person uses the annuity for income. As for you knucklehead, 300+ annuity contracts makes you smell like "one of those insurance guys". Of course you haven't had complaints, you people haven't had them with you long enough. As soon as someone like me reviews their investments, they won't complain they will just ACAT. Commission, commission, commission.

When I explain you can invest in this mutual fund it will cost "X" per year (in dollar figures not percentages) or we can buy insurance on the mutual fund and it will cost you this per year (again in dollar figures). Very, and I mean very few people choose the annuity. I find annuities good for those people you have been working on for a year or so to get some of their money invested in the market that just wouldn't without a guarantee. Or, I find them good for those people that you know will be calling you every month because their "stock" lost value. Then I can say remember that return of principle insurance we bought?

I have found so many people invested in annuities that are still in their 20s and 30s! [/quote]

How do you ACAT an annuity? You're on salary at a discount broker, aren't you? I can tell. Your words indicate that you aren't really IN this business.

By the way...I made a little over $150,000 in my second year. You're on track to do that in your 15'th year. What a big boy!!!

[quote=anonymous]

"Growth stocks are tax deferred?  How does that work?"

I hope that your question is a joke, but I'll answer it for the fun of it.

ABC Widget Company is a growth stock.  They don't pay dividends.  The client bought it at $10/share.  It is now $15/share.  How much tax has been paid?  None.   The tax is deferred until the client sells. 

According to your logic, this stock should never be purchased in a qualified account because it is tax deferred.

[/quote]

Geezus, not taking gains is a tax deferall strategy in your world?  If you don't sell it when it's worth $15 and wait for it to trade at 7 you can do even better--you'll get a tax loss, eliminate up to $3,000 per year of taxable income!

Not taking profits when you have them is hardly a tax strategy--and you call yourself a financial advisor.  Amazing.

Put the stock in a qualified plan and when it hits $15 sell it.  Granted your capital gain will be withdrawn eventually as ordinary income, but at least you have the gain to work for you for several more years till then.

[quote=anonymous]

"so why not use your qualified plan for agressive trading.."

I agree if the investor is aggressive.  Try this with a conservative investor and they'll sell once they start losing money.  Try this with an older client and you may put them in a position where they can never retire.

[/quote]

What I said was to use the VA for their serious money--but to use the qualified plan to be very aggressive.  How often do you put your clients into a covered call writing program in their qualified plan?  Those are not risk free but they do provide about 25% downside protection-it's going to be a hell of a sell off to hurt them and they have upside potential in the 20 to 30 percent range.  All tax deferred because it's being done in their qualified plan.

Meanwhile, with other dollars they are funding a VA for their retirement.  It sits there and quietly grows tax deferred.

[quote=anonymous]

"What is the negative tax treatment that an annuity receives outside of a qualified plan?"

1)Penalty on the gain if money is used before 59 1/2
2)Income tax on all of the gain instead of capital gains
3)On withdrawals that are not annuitized, gains come out first
4)No step up in cost basis at death

Stop thinking of annuities as good or bad.  They are either appropriate or inappropriate based upon the situation.

[/quote]

Are you saying there is no penalty for withdrawing from a qualified plan prior to age 59 1/2 but there is with a VA?

Are you saying that withdrawals from a qualified plan are not taxed as ordinary income, but that withdrawals from a VA are?

Are you saying that if a VA is in a qualified plan the LIFO accounting method switches to FIFO and the guy doesn't pay taxes on his withdrawl because it's return of his original principal?

Are you saying that heirs who inherit a VA outside of a qualified plan do not get a step up, but they would get a step up if it were inside of a qualified plan?

"Geezus, not taking gains is a tax deferall strategy in your world?"

NASD, last that I checked, Jesus was spelled "Jesus".  I'm not quite sure what or who is a "Geezus". 

You need to work on your reading comprehension.  Did you hear me talk about tax deferral strategies?  (Notice that "deferall" is as much a word as "Geezus".  Keep working on your spelling.  You'll catch on soon enough.)  I simply made the point that a growth stock is tax deferred in the same manner as an annuity.  There is no tax until a sale is made.

You completely misunderstood my non-qualified annuity comparison.  This would have been obvious if you had a better understanding of annuities.  I was comparing non-qualified annuities to other non-qualified investments. 

It would be stupid to compare qualified annuities to other qualified investments because the tax treatment is identical.  An annuity inside of an IRA gets taxed the same as a mutual fund inside of an IRA.

two questions:

1.  If annuity products and mutual funds paid exactly the same to the broker how do we feel sales of these products would change?

2.  What would you put a family member or close friend into:   VA's or Mutual Funds?

scrim

[quote=anonymous]

It would be stupid to compare qualified annuities to other qualified investments because the tax treatment is identical.  An annuity inside of an IRA gets taxed the same as a mutual fund inside of an IRA.

[/quote]

But an annuity outside of a qualified plan does not.  So why not use the qualified plans for investments that do not offer tax deferral such as covered call writing, and use VAs as an additional source of tax deferral?

If you put the client into a VA in his qualified plan what else can you offer him that provides tax deferral outside of the plan?

By the way, it's strutting stupidity to think that a common stock offers tax deferral by refusing to sell it.

Tax deferral is a concept that allows you to sell, realizing a gain while you have it, yet still not pay taxes on it at the time.

Only a sleazy insurance agent--or a stupid one--would ever say that not taking profits is a tax deferral strategy.

[quote=scrim67]

two questions:

1.  If annuity products and mutual funds paid exactly the same to the broker how do we feel sales of these products would change?

Easy...VA.

2.  What would you put a family member or close friend into:   VA's or Mutual Funds?

Done it with about 15 friends/family.

scrim

knucklehead…okay I used the wrong term ACAT instead of liquidate the annuuity and transfer it and go direct to mutual funds for 1/3 the cost. If I sold nothing but annuities and other insurance products I would be producing 125-150k too. I choose to take a different road with my clients…what is in their best interest not mine. I, most likely, do all the same types of insurance and insurance products as you. LTC, Term and Permanent Life, Disability, and Annuities. I also sell taxable and nontaxable bonds, mutual funds, stocks and CDs. The latter group is the greatest portion of my business. If I did more WL and annuities instead of Term Insurance and mutual funds, I would more than double my production. The only difference between you and me is the investments that I sell my clients. Beware, there are honest guys out there that love to review clients of adivsors just like you. Within an hour most people realize that they are being swindled. There is one reason that you and your peers produce more than me and others like me. You sell higher commission investments and insurance products. Period.

Peanutbroker, if VAs are a “swindle”, why are they legal?

[quote=peanutbroker]knucklehead...okay I used the wrong term ACAT instead of liquidate the annuuity and transfer it and go direct to mutual funds for 1/3 the cost. If I sold nothing but annuities and other insurance products I would be producing 125-150k too. I choose to take a different road with my clients...what is in their best interest not mine. I, most likely, do all the same types of insurance and insurance products as you. LTC, Term and Permanent Life, Disability, and Annuities. I also sell taxable and nontaxable bonds, mutual funds, stocks and CDs. The latter group is the greatest portion of my business. If I did more WL and annuities instead of Term Insurance and mutual funds, I would more than double my production. The only difference between you and me is the investments that I sell my clients. Beware, there are honest guys out there that love to review clients of adivsors just like you. Within an hour most people realize that they are being swindled. There is one reason that you and your peers produce more than me and others like me. You sell higher commission investments and insurance products. Period. [/quote]

THe reason I produce so much is that I stick to one thing. I have a laser focus on what I sell and who I sell it to. I have become known as an expert at what I do because I specialize. I speak with absolute authority in my area of expertise. You, on the other hand, in your naive way, excel at nothing.

[quote=peanutbroker]knucklehead…okay I used the wrong term ACAT instead of liquidate the annuuity and transfer it and go direct to mutual funds for 1/3 the cost. If I sold nothing but annuities and other insurance products I would be producing 125-150k too. I choose to take a different road with my clients…what is in their best interest not mine. I, most likely, do all the same types of insurance and insurance products as you. LTC, Term and Permanent Life, Disability, and Annuities. I also sell taxable and nontaxable bonds, mutual funds, stocks and CDs. The latter group is the greatest portion of my business. If I did more WL and annuities instead of Term Insurance and mutual funds, I would more than double my production. The only difference between you and me is the investments that I sell my clients. Beware, there are honest guys out there that love to review clients of adivsors just like you. Within an hour most people realize that they are being swindled. There is one reason that you and your peers produce more than me and others like me. You sell higher commission investments and insurance products. Period.

THe reason I produce so much is that I stick to one thing. I have a laser focus on what I sell and who I sell it to. I have become known as an expert at what I do because I specialize. I speak with absolute authority in my area of expertise. You, on the other hand, in your naive way, excel at nothing.

"Tax deferral is a concept that allows you to sell, realizing a gain while you have it, yet still not pay taxes on it at the time."

That's certainly one definition.  Reasonable people would agree that another definition would certainly include any investment where taxes are not paid until a gain is realized.  The appreciation on my rental properties is tax deferred.  My income on these properties is not.  My investment in the ABC Widget company is tax deferred.

In my opinion tax deferral would include anything that allows the investor to choose when the tax gets paid.  I get to choose when to sell my Widget stock, thus it is tax deferred.  I get to choose when to sell my rental properties.  In some ways, this can offer better tax deferral than a qualified plan because I'm not forced to sell based upon my age.   I guess that I'm sleazy and stupid.

"But an annuity outside of a qualified plan does not.  So why not use the qualified plans for investments that do not offer tax deferral such as covered call writing, and use VAs as an additional source of tax deferral?"

It's strutting stupidity to ASSUME that tax deferral is a good thing.  Did you not comprehend the other disadvantages of annuities outside of a qualified plan.  (I'm not advocation against non-qualified annuities, but the disadvantages have to be understood.)

"If you put the client into a VA in his qualified plan what else can you offer him that provides tax deferral outside of the plan?"

Growth stocks.  Most likely, we will sell at some point so the deferral won't be as long, but we'll be paying capital gains instead of income tax and we have the ability to match gains and losses.

Peanutbroker,

In my experience, the people who make the most money are the ones who spend the most time with high quality prospects.  I'm not sure that product mix has that much importance.   Top producers don't become top producers by ripping off people.  They become top producers by working their ass off and developing stellar reputations.

Additionally, don't be so quick to dismiss whole life insurance.  Take some serious time to talk to many people older than age 50.  Do a survey and find out how many of them would be comfortable without owning life insurance.  Would their wife be able to maintain the standard of living desired for the rest of her life if he died today without life insurance?   A large portion of these people will put their wife in financial jeopardy if their insurance is term (yet, they followed the "buy term and invest the difference" philosopy.

[quote=anonymous]

In my opinion tax deferral would include anything that allows the investor to choose when the tax gets paid.  I get to choose when to sell my Widget stock, thus it is tax deferred.  I get to choose when to sell my rental properties.  In some ways, this can offer better tax deferral than a qualified plan because I'm not forced to sell based upon my age.   I guess that I'm sleazy and stupid.

[/quote]

Yes you are as a matter of fact.

As I said yesterday, tax deferral is a concept that allows the investor to take a gain, yet defer their taxation on that gain--it is not some odd ball idea that if you don't take your gains you don't have to pay taxes.

You must have been advising investors in Enron--"No Mrs. Johnson, don't sell the stock now because you'll have to pay taxes" followed by, "See Mrs. Johnson, now you have a tax loss that you can use to reduce your income.  Losses are good."

Ridiculous.

If you were worth a tinker's damn as an advisor you'd have your clients in agressive growth situations in their qualified plans, and also sell them Variable Annuities, but outside of the plan.

That way the client can take full advantage of the tax code and grow is qualified plan with things like covered call writing--while also watching the VA sit there and grow tax deferred.

Your approach provides one tax deferred vehicle, mine provides two.

Presenting a common stock portfolio outside of a qualified plan as a tax deferral strategy because the investor never sells the stock, therefore never realizes the capital event, is so dishonest that you should lose your licenses.  You are an embarassment to the industry and should slink away in shame.

It's strutting stupidity to ASSUME that tax deferral is a good thing.

Putsy, best of luck to you.  I'm done spending time on your threads. 

[quote=anonymous]

It's strutting stupidity to ASSUME that tax deferral is a good thing.

Putsy, best of luck to you.  I'm done spending time on your threads. 

[/quote]

Ah, slinking away in shame as I suggested.  It really is best to not continually expose yourself by opening your mouth.

Not selling stocks that have gone up is a form of tax deferral, yep that works.

Anonymous…it appears you have a strong knowledge (at least stronger than mine) of the insurance industry. I imagine you are doing what is right for your client not just what pays you the best. It is just difficult for me to wrap my mind around how/why you insurance guys make so much more starting out than guys at wirehouses. Kucklehead said 150k after two years?!! It seems near impossible to do ethically in such a short period of time.

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=anonymous]

It's strutting stupidity to ASSUME that tax deferral is a good thing.

Putsy, best of luck to you.  I'm done spending time on your threads. 

[/quote]

Ah, slinking away in shame as I suggested.  It really is best to not continually expose yourself by opening your mouth.

Not selling stocks that have gone up is a form of tax deferral, yep that works.

[/quote]

Putsy, you clown....he didn't say that he was ashamed of anything.  He said he's tired of wasting time with a dung beetle like you.

I wonder if you annuity salesmen would continue to extol the wonderful benefits of VAs if they didn’t pay a 6% commission? 

I wonder if you would sell any at all if your customers knew what you were being paid for the transaction? <!–
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I even wonder if this thread would exist…

[quote=Sailor25]I wonder if you annuity salesmen would continue to extol the wonderful benefits of VAs if they didn't pay a 6% commission? 

I wonder if you would sell any at all if your customers knew what you were being paid for the transaction? <!-- var SymRealOnLoad; var SymReal;

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I even wonder if this thread would exist…
[/quote]

The one I use pays 7.5% and I get 90% of that. It's not much, but I dropped a $100,000 annuity ticket today.

What do YOU sell and how much do YOU get paid?

[quote=knucklehead]

[quote=Sailor25]I wonder if you annuity salesmen would continue to extol the wonderful benefits of VAs if they didn't pay a 6% commission? 

I wonder if you would sell any at all if your customers knew what you were being paid for the transaction? <!-- var SymRealOnLoad; var SymReal;

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//–>

I even wonder if this thread would exist…
[/quote]

The one I use pays 7.5% and I get 90% of that. It's not much, but I dropped a $100,000 annuity ticket today.

What do YOU sell and how much do YOU get paid?

[/quote]

This is the same sociopathic behavior that drives the penny stock market.

There are guys out there who figures, "If the person is dumb enought to buy this I might as well sell it to them because if I don't somebody else will."

When all you have to sell is a VA and a life insurance policy the solution to every situation becomes a VA and some more life insurance.

Never let yourself drift to the bottom of the barrel.  There is no pride in being a con man--there may be instant gratification but some day you'll find yourself staring at the ceiling wondering if there is a supreme power that is going to cast you into hell for having been a sleazeball all of your life.

Newbie, I agree with you completely on this one. It's sh*te like that that makes it tougher on all of us and it's just wrong to begin with. The only comfort I get is thinking that karma is going to catch up to them eventually.

[quote=no idea]

Newbie, I agree with you completely on this one. It's sh*te like that that makes it tougher on all of us and it's just wrong to begin with. The only comfort I get is thinking that karma is going to catch up to them eventually.

[/quote]

Your name says it all. It must be a drag that you can't compete with people like me. All I have to do is show people the performance and guarantees and it's a done deal.

I have been losing sleep over this but I'm hoping with time and extensive therapy I might be able rally back!

Just for grins, you should show your victims your commission and the internal expenses on your products.

[quote=no idea]

I have been losing sleep over this but I'm hoping with time and extensive therapy I might be able rally back!

Just for grins, you should show your victims your commission and the internal expenses on your products.

[/quote]

Full disclosure closes more business than anything else...

M&E+Admin = 1.25

Subaccounts = 0.65

Guarantee = 0.40

Avg Annual (net of expenses except optional gurantee) = >20% compared to 11% on S&P

Your ability to compete with this = nil

Dirk, is this the EIA that you sell? What’s the company and product name?

Out of curiosity, NASD, how long have you been in the business and how old were you when you started? 

Must I explain everything to you, newbie?  Now answer Broker Recruit's question.

I got registered when I was twenty six, and I retired with thirty five years of service.

I became a member of the President's club in my second full year and was in it for the balance of my time in production.

I was way too young to be truly effective--but I was well connected because of my college activities.

Nobody should consider this business until they're at least thirty-five unless there are other factors at work in your favor.  The child of a rich family, the child of a well known local personality, a college sports star--that sort of thing.

If that's not there you're crazy to even try before you have credibility.

You may not believe this, but on line profiles are not necessarily accurate.

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=hubbabubba]

Out of curiosity, NASD, how long have you been in the business and how old were you when you started? 

Must I explain everything to you, newbie?  Now answer Broker Recruit's question.

[/quote]

I got registered when I was twenty six, and I retired with thirty five years of service.

I became a member of the President's club in my second full year and was in it for the balance of my time in production.

I was way too young to be truly effective--but I was well connected because of my college activities.

Nobody should consider this business until they're at least thirty-five unless there are other factors at work in your favor.  The child of a rich family, the child of a well known local personality, a college sports star--that sort of thing.

If that's not there you're crazy to even try before you have credibility.

[quote=NASD Newbie]You may not believe this, but on line profiles are not necessarily accurate.[/quote]

why not leave the date out if your hiding from something, maybe you have ethics issues in your carrer too?

[quote=Gottogo]

[quote=NASD Newbie]You may not believe this, but on line profiles are not necessarily accurate.[/quote]

why not leave the date out if your hiding from something, maybe you have ethics issues in your carrer too?

[/quote]

Did you note the birth date, month and day?

[quote=no idea]Dirk, is this the EIA that you sell? What's the company and product name?[/quote]

It has to be a VA; EIA's don't have M&E expenses.  I AM curious as to what your b/d would say if you were selling it based on historical performance, though.  And "Full Disclosure" includes your commission.  Otherwise it's "Partial Disclosure".

Gottogo is, you heard it here first… ANONYMOUS!! I thought you weren’t posting on Nasd’s threads?

peanutbroker, I won’t respond to NASD, but I’ll still post in a thread.  I am not Gottogo, but good guess. 

I like your posts, but doesn’t mean I am a sucker…it is an obvious spoof. Anonymous = Gottogo

The one thing that you should notice from my threads is that I’m always honest.

[quote=anonymous]The one thing that you should notice from my threads is that I'm always honest.[/quote]

Yep, and John Mark Karr is honest when he says he killed Jon Benet Ramsey.

Glad to hear…anonymous i sent you a PM on your other acct.   

[quote=FreedomLvr]

[quote=no idea]Dirk, is this the EIA that you sell? What's the company and product name?[/quote]

It has to be a VA; EIA's don't have M&E expenses.  I AM curious as to what your b/d would say if you were selling it based on historical performance, though.  And "Full Disclosure" includes your commission.  Otherwise it's "Partial Disclosure".

[/quote]

I don't usually volunteer my commission because I disclose everything that they pay. If they ask, I tell them. It doesn't bother people. They want me to get paid. Just because YOU aren't worth what I make doesn't meant that I'm not.

What does "selling it based on historical performance" mean?

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[quote=FreedomLvr]

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[/quote]

Oh. I'm sorry. I see, now, that you were just trying to spread some good cheer. I'll get my B/D to call you, so we can satisfy your curiosity.

[quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr]

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[/quote]

Oh. I'm sorry. I see, now, that you were just trying to spread some good cheer. I'll get my B/D to call you, so we can satisfy your curiosity.

[/quote]

It's no problem, and I don't need to talk to your b/d about it.  The bottom of every MF and VA prospectus spells it out pretty clearly.

[quote=FreedomLvr][quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr]

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[/quote]

Oh. I'm sorry. I see, now, that you were just trying to spread some good cheer. I'll get my B/D to call you, so we can satisfy your curiosity.

[/quote]

It's no problem, and I don't need to talk to your b/d about it.  The bottom of every MF and VA prospectus spells it out pretty clearly.

[/quote]

Really? Did you know that MF's don't have to disclose trading costs? On average, it's more than 1%. The true costs of MS's in more in the 3-4% range. You knew that, already, I'm sure.

[quote=knucklehead]

Your name says it all. It must be a drag that you can't compete with people like me. All I have to do is show people the performance and guarantees and it's a done deal.

[/quote]

Start making sense.  I was curious about what your b/d would say about you selling based on past performance.

[quote=FreedomLvr][quote=knucklehead]

Your name says it all. It must be a drag that you can't compete with people like me. All I have to do is show people the performance and guarantees and it's a done deal.

[/quote]

Start making sense.  I was curious about what your b/d would say about you selling based on past performance.

[/quote]

Post your name and number. I will have my firm call you and satisfy your curiousity.

[quote=FreedomLvr][quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr]

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[/quote]

Oh. I'm sorry. I see, now, that you were just trying to spread some good cheer. I'll get my B/D to call you, so we can satisfy your curiosity.

[/quote]

It's no problem, and I don't need to talk to your b/d about it.  The bottom of every MF and VA prospectus spells it out pretty clearly.

[/quote]

See above.

[quote=FreedomLvr][quote=FreedomLvr][quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr]

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[/quote]

Oh. I'm sorry. I see, now, that you were just trying to spread some good cheer. I'll get my B/D to call you, so we can satisfy your curiosity.

[/quote]

It's no problem, and I don't need to talk to your b/d about it.  The bottom of every MF and VA prospectus spells it out pretty clearly.

[/quote]

See above.

[/quote]

We're going in circles. Here's the deal...I don't care what you think of me or what I do. I LOVE my business and I LOVE the money I make. You're not gonna say anything that's gonna get me to change and I really don't care what you think, in the first place. If you're curious about what my B/D thinks, you're gonna stay that way. Have a nice day.

Knuck, I don't know much about you and I'm a big fan of VA's.  I think they happen to be fantastic investments for clients who want a bit more safety than a MF yet have the potential for significantly greater gains than fixed annuities (including EIA's), bonds, CD's, etc.  I even think the commissions on most of them are fair, considering that there's more to explain than with a MF if you want the client to understand.  Especially when you're using some of the newer riders to offer additional guarantees.

My point was not that you're selling the wrong product or ripping off clients.  I don't know anywhere near enough about your business to make a judgement like that.

My concern, based on one of your earlier posts, was that you said you were selling these based on their performance adn their guarantees.  The guarantees are great on many VA's, and a fantastic selling point.  However, since we have no idea what an investment is going to do in the future, selling the client a product based on past returns is unethical.

The first time I asked that question to you, I thought for sure that you'd respond, "Of course I let my clients know that there's upside potential, however I always make sure the other features and benefits are in line with my clients investment goals.  In non-retirement accounts the tax-deferred growth may be important to the client.  The liquidity they have available during the period where there's a CDSC is enough to meet and short-term emergency needs they think they'll have, etc etc...

Okay, the b/d line WAS a jab, I'll admit it and apologize.  But come on...

[quote=FreedomLvr]

Knuck, I don't know much about you and I'm a big fan of VA's.  I think they happen to be fantastic investments for clients who want a bit more safety than a MF yet have the potential for significantly greater gains than fixed annuities (including EIA's), bonds, CD's, etc.  I even think the commissions on most of them are fair, considering that there's more to explain than with a MF if you want the client to understand.  Especially when you're using some of the newer riders to offer additional guarantees.

My point was not that you're selling the wrong product or ripping off clients.  I don't know anywhere near enough about your business to make a judgement like that.

My concern, based on one of your earlier posts, was that you said you were selling these based on their performance adn their guarantees.  The guarantees are great on many VA's, and a fantastic selling point.  However, since we have no idea what an investment is going to do in the future, selling the client a product based on past returns is unethical.

The first time I asked that question to you, I thought for sure that you'd respond, "Of course I let my clients know that there's upside potential, however I always make sure the other features and benefits are in line with my clients investment goals.  In non-retirement accounts the tax-deferred growth may be important to the client.  The liquidity they have available during the period where there's a CDSC is enough to meet and short-term emergency needs they think they'll have, etc etc...

Okay, the b/d line WAS a jab, I'll admit it and apologize.  But come on...

[/quote]

Freed, quit trying to get chummy with me. I'm sorry that YOUR annuities haven't performed well enough to be of interest to your clients. Mine have.

lol.  Best of luck to you.

[quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr][quote=FreedomLvr][quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr]

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[/quote]

Oh. I'm sorry. I see, now, that you were just trying to spread some good cheer. I'll get my B/D to call you, so we can satisfy your curiosity.

[/quote]

It's no problem, and I don't need to talk to your b/d about it.  The bottom of every MF and VA prospectus spells it out pretty clearly.

[/quote]

See above.

[/quote]

We're going in circles. Here's the deal...I don't care what you think of me or what I do. I LOVE my business and I LOVE the money I make. You're not gonna say anything that's gonna get me to change and I really don't care what you think, in the first place. If you're curious about what my B/D thinks, you're gonna stay that way. Have a nice day.

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr][quote=FreedomLvr][quote=knucklehead][quote=FreedomLvr]

You're very touchy, Knuck.  Take a deep breath and relax; I wasn't jabbing at you.  If you'd like to pick a fight there are plenty of other guys, and a few gals, around here who'd be happy to take you up on it.  I don't come here for brawls, I come here for information.

To answer your question:  "Mr./Mrs. Client, this is definitely the product for you.  Last year (last 3 years, last 5 years, last 10 years, etc.) it returned 27% to everyone who bought it from me."

[/quote]

Oh. I'm sorry. I see, now, that you were just trying to spread some good cheer. I'll get my B/D to call you, so we can satisfy your curiosity.

[/quote]

It's no problem, and I don't need to talk to your b/d about it.  The bottom of every MF and VA prospectus spells it out pretty clearly.

[/quote]

See above.

[/quote]

We're going in circles. Here's the deal...I don't care what you think of me or what I do. I LOVE my business and I LOVE the money I make. You're not gonna say anything that's gonna get me to change and I really don't care what you think, in the first place. If you're curious about what my B/D thinks, you're gonna stay that way. Have a nice day.

[/quote]

If you really don't care what anybody thinks, then why are you here?
[/quote]

Free entertainment.

Feedom,

I agree that selling based on past performance can be a double edged sword but how the hell do you sell people on investing in equities?

Broker: "Gee Mr. Client, I think you should invest in stocks 'cause they offer the potential to gain higher returns than bonds"

Mr Client: "How do you know this"

Broker: "Um, well, I can't really tell you because it would mean that I'd be relying on past performance data and who knows what's going to happen tomorrow."

Mr Client: "Sounds great, gimme $200,000 worth of that stock stuff!"

You sound really ignorant.  How do mutual funds get clients?  How is a GUARANTEE on a VA sold?  Because of the past behavior of those investments (how can a guarantee be sold without making the case for one based on how markets have performed in the past)

Broker: "Gee, Mr. Client you might want to consider buying this guarantee to protect your investment."

Client: "Why would I need one of those?"

Broker: "Um, well, to tell you this is unethical since it uses past performance, but the stock market CAN go down and has before, just don't tell anyone I told you that."

Utterly assinine.

"Um Mr. Client, I'm recommending this mutual fund that has gone down every year over the last 10 years, but that doesn't matter 'cause tomorrow is a different day and as you know past performance is no guarantee of the future."

How do you decide to do anything without some guidance from what has come before.

You can't sell investments without depending on some basis in the past.

Sole reliance on past performance is certainly not wise, but what else are you going to do?

[quote=NASD Newbie]You may not believe this, but on line profiles are not necessarily accurate.[/quote]

Newbie

At what point in your incredible career did you come out of the closet?

Dude,

Knuck's quote was "All I have to do is show people the performance and guarantees and it's a done deal."

That was my concern, Dude (Had to throw in Big Lebowski quote).

I was addressing your statement that "selling based on past performance is unethical".  This is simply untrue.

For someone who sells solely based on past performance without discussion about the potential that the performance will not repeat..... well I'd say they are definitely flirting with the dark side and are in for some nasty suprises.

The thing is, I have read enough of Dirk's (knucklehead) posts about his annuity sales and I get the impression that he is candid and honest (although he can come off a little like a car salesman in his posts).  It is not a bad thing that he explains the product and uses the actual performance of his annuities to close the sale in my opinion, as long as necessary caveats are addressed.  So far I believe that Dirk does address this.

Posting from home (lunch today).......BlindToTruth is alias for dude when posting from home.

You’re right, I definitely should have included “Selling SOLELY based…”

[quote=BlindToTruth]

Posting from home (lunch today).......BlindToTruth is alias for dude when posting from home.

[/quote]

Are you blind to truth at home but not at work?  I would think once a Dude always a Dude.

[quote=NASD Newbie

Are you blind to truth at home but not at work?  I would think once a Dude always a Dude.

[/quote]

I think you just described yourself to a t.

Nah, I’m not a Dude–but I am a stud and I’ve been called the human tripod on a few occasions.

[quote=NASD Newbie]Nah, I'm not a Dude--but I am a stud and I've been called the human tripod on a few occasions.[/quote]

Your legs are two inches long fully extended??????

Was at home and wanted to post on a subject that I am nieve on and forgot my password.  I’m glad to have a place where I can be ‘set straight’ when I need it, since there is a lot for me to learn.

Oh and it’s dude…not Dude.  Purposefully understated with a dash of humor intended. 

The dude abides. <!–
var SymRealOnLoad;
var SymReal;

Sym()
{
window.open = SymWinOpen;
if(SymReal != null)
SymReal();
}

SymOnLoad()
{
if(SymRealOnLoad != null)
SymRealOnLoad();
window.open = SymRealWinOpen;
SymReal = window.;
window. = Sym;
}

SymRealOnLoad = window.onload;
window.onload = SymOnLoad;

//–>

I take comfort in that... it's good to know that there's a fella like him out there.  The Dude.  Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners... :)

Nice one,  no idea.  One of my favorite movies...

[quote=Philo Kvetch]

[quote=NASD Newbie]Nah, I'm not a Dude--but I am a stud and I've been called the human tripod on a few occasions.[/quote]

Your legs are two inches long fully extended??????

[/quote]

NASD Newbie a.k.a. stumpy