[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=ribsnwhiskey]

excuse my edit....

********NOTE******** -  Newby has no problem telling Looney, myself and others that we are LYING.  However it would be asanine if a broker were to ever call an exiting brokers client and lie to them WHEN THERE ARE COMMISSIONS TO BE MADE. 

[/quote]

If you were speaking would you say, ".....telling Looney, myself and others....." or would you say, ".....telling Looney, me, and others....."

[/quote]

Depending on your age it is generally written

"telling Looney, me and others" - with no comma before the 'and'. 

or

"telling Looney, me, and others" - is equally acceptable. 

The latter of the two has been the proper form for years, but more modern writing has been accepting of leaving out the comma. 

I apologize for having someone tell "myself" something.  They obviously told "me" something. 

If you were moving from Jones to, say, Morgan Stanley and Jones brokers were smearing your reputation would you not expect Morgan Stanley to sue Jones on your behalf?

After all, if Jones is saying that you have problems with the IRS it reflects horribly on Morgan Stanley for having hired you.

In order for somebody to tell a client that a broker, "has IRS problems" the following must occur:

1.  The broker making the phone call must be dishonest.  If you think most people are dishonest you are dishonest yourself and figure so is everybody else.

2.  The broker making the phone call must assume that the person they are talking to feels no loyalty or friendship for the departed broker.  How do they know that a name on a spread sheet is not the departed broker's best friend?

3.  The client has to be willing to accept the statement as being true, or the person making it loses all credibility and the purpose of the call in the first place loses any value.

4.  The firm that employs the person who is lying to the departed broker's clients must completely ignore their responsibility to supervise.

5.  The broker about whom the lies were told must be willing to be lied about without wanting to take some sort of action to protect their own reputation.  If somebody told a client of yours that you had IRS problems would you simply say, "Oh well" and go on with life or would you at least talk to your new manager?

6.  The broker's new manager would have to be willing to make himself look incompetent for hiring the broker who was being slandered.

The odds of these stories being true are longer than the odds that I'll win the Lottery this week.

I was born late at night, boys and girls, but it was not last night.

The supervisor bears no responsibility.

You said so yourself, Newbie.

Since I only check this forum once a day at night, I will only reply to Newbie's math.

I guess I wasn't clear.  They budgeted $10,000 for the broker to throw a seminar.  They spent a ton of money advertising, sending invites, bringing in my former BOA to call clients, bringing in my former friends (other IR's in the region) and flying egghead out to Cali.  They failed miserably.  They anticipated 150 to 200 clients/prospects and they ended up with 17.  So I don't know what they actually ended up spending...The point is they tried everything to keep the clients.

I had some experience on both sides of the coin when a broker leaves Jones, so will clarify a couple of issues.  This is not just based on my personal experience, in the last 2 years I have taken a couple of the "transition reps", or TR's, who are the brokers sent out to an office temporarily to try to salvage what is there until they are replaced by a permanent IR, out for a beer and pumped them for info, knowing that I would probably be on the leaving side at some point in my career.

There is an AUM level, I believe around 15mm, that dictates whether a TR is assigned, they may also take into account whether it is a competitive situation. 

Offices below that level are assigned to a TR who stays in STL, who will be managing several offices.  I believe that many of those brokers are in the Pass Program, which is basically a 2 year internal program for failed new reps that EDJ believes have potential.  I would suspect that those people have more supervision than the TR's out in the field, however, they are relatively inexperienced.  Also, they have been on a low salary for 1-2 years and now are able to generate some commissions, which could cloud their judgement, since based on when they were 1st recruited to EDJ they probably expected to be making $100,000 by now.

The larger offices have a TR go out to them, and while none of the TR's were probably big hitters, the ones I met tended to have more experience and were doing the TR thing for a year or two for personal reasons (I'm sure in addition to not producing at the level they desired, although not low enough to get on the outs with EDJ).

In both cases, the TR's know that they will have these clients for days or weeks, not years, so I would expect some churning problems.  Also, most of the TR's will get assigned to an office when their tour as a TR is up.  The ripest plums will still go to the RL's or GP's kids, etc., but there are some pretty nice offices to be had for simply showing up.  I would assume there is some pressure to generate alot of sales as a TR to increase one's standing to get one of those more highly coveted offices when it is available.

Do I think that as a rule clients are told that there are IRS or ethical problems point blank?  No.  Do I think that as a rule those type of issues are implied?  Yes.  Do I think that struggling brokers who see the chance to move a $3,000 ticket from Oppenheimer or Franklin to American or something similar will occasionally cross the line?  Is the Pope Catholic?  Bear in mind that the American Funds ICA guide is somewhat of a religious text at EDJ, and no matter how well a client was positioned before you found him, his portfolio can always be improved by liquidating and reinvesting into American Funds.

[quote=spikedkoolaid]

Since I only check this forum once a day at night, I will only reply to Newbie's math.

I guess I wasn't clear.  They budgeted $10,000 for the broker to throw a seminar.  They spent a ton of money advertising, sending invites, bringing in my former BOA to call clients, bringing in my former friends (other IR's in the region) and flying egghead out to Cali.  They failed miserably.  They anticipated 150 to 200 clients/prospects and they ended up with 17.  So I don't know what they actually ended up spending...The point is they tried everything to keep the clients.

[/quote]

Have any of you ever had a dinner presentation where you were feeding 160 to 200 people?

It is my experience that those dinner invitations are always inviting you to have dinner in a nice restaurant, where there is a private dining room that will hold at most twenty or so.

I've never seen an invitation to come have dinner in a hall where there will be circular tables for ten and you'll be lost in the crowd.

But I could be wrong--perhaps making a prospect feel like they're nothing more than somebody in the crowd is a new way of marketing.

Finally Newbie you have gotten the picture.  They rented a big hall and wanted 200 people to come sit and hear the Chief Market Strategist say, "You need to buy and hold."  They were trying to convey that a lot of people are staying at Edward Jones. 

Imagine the picture of a 200 person room and it barely filled two tables.  I love that picture in my mind.

As for the IRS comments, I have it recorded.  It's not an implication.  And you were right, the IR that replaced me at Jones is really stupid.

[quote=spikedkoolaid]

Finally Newbie you have gotten the picture.  They rented a big hall and wanted 200 people to come sit and hear the Chief Market Strategist say, "You need to buy and hold."  They were trying to convey that a lot of people are staying at Edward Jones. 

Imagine the picture of a 200 person room and it barely filled two tables.  I love that picture in my mind.

As for the IRS comments, I have it recorded.  It's not an implication.  And you were right, the IR that replaced me at Jones is really stupid.

[/quote]

I believe precisely nothing about what you just said.  Why you feel compelled to lie escapes me, but it's a character flaw you should have examined by a mental health professional.

Nasty, you're certainly entitled to not believe Spike, but I don't see anything in that post that seems implausible.  A friend of mine had a former client ask him after he left, "Are you OK?"  When my friend said yes and asked why he asked, this person told him that he'd received a call from my friend's 24 shortly after my friend left, and he specifically told the client that my friend had left, had significant financial problems, and most likely would not last three months on his own.  After some legal skirmishing on both sides, this talk was shut off.

Don't think for a moment that people in this business, who should know better (such as the 24), don't do some really stupid and unethical things...they do.  As a matter of fact, Spike's regional leader was outed after posting some really, really stupid things on this forum.  He disappeared immediately after that to never post again (and I'm guessing was chewed out by the leaders at Jones for his foolishness).

I agree, it's easy to manufacture things when you're positing anonymously on an internet forum, and there appears to be a fair amount of BS on these boards, but nothing I've read in Spike's story appears to be implausible, whether it's true or not.

[quote=Indyone]

I agree, it's easy to manufacture things when you're positing anonymously on an internet forum, and there appears to be a fair amount of BS on these boards, but nothing I've read in Spike's story appears to be implausible, whether it's true or not.

[/quote]

How about renting a hall for 200 where they expected to serve dinner?

First, if you're buying dinner for 200 you would not have to rent a place, it would be provided by the restaurant.

Secondly, dinner presentations are ALWAYS at a semi-fancy restaurant--to make an impression--and those types of places don't have rooms that will hold 200 at big round tables.  I doubt that this 200 was expected to sit at chairs, theater style, with TV trays.

Is it your experience that groups of more than a couple of dozen are receptive to the message that a financial advisor is attemting to convey?

Has marketing changed in the last several weeks, and now being lost in the crowd is considered a desirable image to project?

I would submit that this is how EDJ markets, and it rings very familiar to what I see in my market.  Last fall, all the Jones reps went together and rented a building to host 200-250 clients and had a local restaurant cater the meal in since none of our restaurants had a room large enough to accomodate that number.

I think EDJ does it a bit different than you are used to seeing in the world of the wirehouse...not saying it's right...just saying that it's what I see in my region.

Amen…NASD Newbie–even if you were and are the expert you claim to be

about the wirehouse world, EJ is quite different. In most ways it comes

across as quite hokey and unsophisticated–and that’s the stuff they WANT

to be different! If you had a complete list of their branch offices that showed

their neighbor tenants, it wouldn’t inspire an image of professional

confidence. They spin it as “local and convenient”–sorta like a dry cleaner.

It does have some advantages, but generally the overall image doesn’t work

as well as it could. They do seem to be moving to or opening more offices

in professional buildings where you’d see a dentist, CPA, attorney, etc.

That’s probably a step in the right direction for them. But the big dinner

event doesn’t seem strange to me in their “culture.”

[quote=Indyone]

I would submit that this is how EDJ markets, and it rings very familiar to what I see in my market.  Last fall, all the Jones reps went together and rented a building to host 200-250 clients and had a local restaurant cater the meal in since none of our restaurants had a room large enough to accomodate that number.

I think EDJ does it a bit different than you are used to seeing in the world of the wirehouse...not saying it's right...just saying that it's what I see in my region.

[/quote]

Do you believe that they would be so off in their head count that only 17 people showed up, but that they had paid for 200 people?

Are you that naive?

No, I'm not necessarily saying they paid for 200 meals, but I do believe that they committed to a large room, thinking many more people would come than ultimately committed.

You're being naive to think it's not possible for them to be that stupid...I've seen some awfully dumb stuff in my market.

NASD I try to avoid conflict on this forum and absolutely with those who buy their ink by the barrel or make posts by the dozen. That said you are absolutely wrong on Spiked’s point of large dinners. I am fairly certain i know Spiked and he was a Top Producer @ EJ or at least very close. However, to your point of large client dinners apparently you have not spent alot of time in say Kearney Nebraska or Sidney Montana or Paducah Kentucky but those places I bet have “Client Appreciation Dinners” when an EJ rep leaves and they do pack’em in. I have attended events that size. I bet there are a few on this forum who have helped host or attend an American Funds Shareholder meeting with masses present. As to the point of misjudging the number when a rep leaves they do anything they can to get their clients to attend this dinner so to get an accurate count for them may be difficult. To misjudge by the amount Spiked indicates would perhaps attest to the stupidity he/she indicated was present in the rep who replaced him/her and not their mental well being. Now, do your best.

It is common practice for the firm losing a broker with a big book to protect the assets at almost any cost. It happens everywhere…just check the front page of this site, there is a big mess at ML. It seems like there is always something screwed up goin on at ML that is posted on this site.

[quote=skolbrother]I bet there are a few on this forum who have helped host or attend an American Funds Shareholder meeting with masses present.[/quote]

...that's exactly what I was describing above...

The point is this.  It has been said that Jones spent $10,000 to entertain 17 people.  I do not believe that.

I do not believe that a firm would pay for 200 or more dinners without any indication on how many people would actually show up--I don't care if it's in Bumphuck, Idaho or New York City.

You're right I have never been to mutual fund shareholder's meeting where the crowd gathers for dinner.  I've been to a few held in theaters where they sit in chairs and listen to what the fund has been doing since the last meeting.

I've also been involved in more than a few attempts to keep a book inhouse--and I refuse to believe that Jones would engage in wholesale smearing of a guy's reputation.  I do believe that phone calls are made, and I do believe that subtle statements are made in an attempt to retain the account--talk of inceased fees would be expected, talk of being persuaded to switch fund families would be expected.  But there would not be talk about IRS problems, morality issues, and the like.

There are simply too many risks, and a firm such as Jones would be too focused on the downside to mount the kind of campaigns that are being described.

It is not credible when somebody says, "They told my clients that I had IRS problems, but I wasn't mad enough to even ask a lawyer about it.  Sometimes you just want to get on with your life."

Do that to me and I'll just tell my lawyer to make your life miserable, call me when I have to give a deposition, and send me 2/3rds of what he wins.

Do that to me and I'll tell my new firm what you're doing.  They will sue you because you are sullying their reputation by suggesting that they would hire somebody with IRS problems.

I further suggest that if you believe that your fellow human beings would do anything just to keep your accounts you have a poorly defined sense of morality and should be ever vigilant in an attempt to avoid people such as yourself.

Would you pick up the phone and call a complete stranger, and then slander a third party without knowing if the person on the phone was the guy you were slandering's best friend?  Does that really make sense to you?

This story has all the earmarks of a guy who started out with a typical, "This is what they did to me" story, but his distaste for Jones caused him to embellish it not suspecting that he'd be called on it.

I've been reading NASD Notices to Members for close to two decades.  I peruse the monthly list of disciplinary actions and I have a near photographic memory.  I cannot recall seeing anything about wholesale slander efforts being conducted by Jones.

If it had been true the NASD would be on Jones like white on rice. And they're not.

I do not believe that a firm would pay for 200 or more dinners without any indication on how many people would actually show up--I don't care if it's in Bumphuck, Idaho or New York City.

You can refuse to believe anything you like.  I, personally, refuse to believe that anyone in their right mind would actually want to live in New York City. Since you do live there and seem not to understand how the "little" folk in the fly over States operate, I can believe that you don't believe it.

But there would not be talk about IRS problems, morality issues, and the like.

OK.  I guess my clients were hallucinating and hearing voices from above instead of actually getting phone calls from EDJ when I left. 

Would you pick up the phone and call a complete stranger, and then slander a third party without knowing if the person on the phone was the guy you were slandering's best friend?  Does that really make sense to you?

I wouldn't, however, they did just that at Jones.  In fact, they called my BOA with one of these types of calls.  After a few minutes of them slandering me she actually said.  "Do you know who this is? I am the BOA at the office."  She had decided to stay on at the branch.  Since I left on very good terms with her, she called me to tell me exactly what they were saying.

It is not credible when somebody says, "They told my clients that I had IRS problems, but I wasn't mad enough to even ask a lawyer about it.  Sometimes you just want to get on with your life."

Why isn't it credible?  In my case, I just didn't want to expend the time, resources, mental and emotional stress to deal with something that no one believed in any case.  As I said, I had already informed my clients that I was changing firms, they all had known me for years and years.  I was too busy making a transition to spin my wheels in a futile effort that would take years and most likely result in no satisfactory court decision. 

I imagine that most people who leave Jones are quiting the industry, so in that case why bother with what they say about you. Or, they are moving on to greener pastures so again why bother.  I also believe that Jones relies on the fact that many who leave Jones just do not have the resources $$$$$ to put up a lengthy legal battle.  So you can believe what you want and I can believe what I want.  Isn't that a great system?

You think that I am a Jones hater.  Well, that isn't true and you can look up some of my previous posts.  I was sadly disappointed with my experience there and felt that I had been misled as to how the business plan actually worked.  Nevertheless, I do suggest to aspiring financial advisors that it can be a good place to start and that there are many happy people who work there still.  It wasn't for me.  

And when you're doing events that large you have to guarantee the hotel/restaurant a certain number of attendees and they'll bill you for the full amount even if less show up.  If EJ was feeling cocky and guaranteed the full 200, perhaps paying $20/plate that's already an expense of $4000, not including gratuities & tax...

It's not impossible that they spent $10K, but it's definitely a reflection of poor planning.