[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

Most cap gains in index funds are short term, which is taxed EVERY year at the ordinary rate.

[/quote]

Short term cap gains on index funds make up the majority of their gains? Got a source for that one?

[/quote]

Nope. I made it up.

[/quote]

Uh, no kidding. "Red handed" is what they call this one. Or, if you don’t want to be kind, you call it “lying”.

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

It's impossible to pay 35% in income taxes on one's income. Do the math.

[/quote]

Uh? The top rate is currently 35%, so what do you mean by this?

[/quote]

Standard/itemized deductions bring the marginal rate down to the effective rate. I can't believe that after all of those firms you've been with you haven't picked that up.

[/quote]

Ohhhh, a "all those firms" retort. I'm cut to the quick. After all, I should feel bad about that, shouldn't I? I mean, the big bad boys selling (some FORMERLY SELLING) insurance products and/or working for Jones tell me I should.  And just why is that again? 

Back to the subject. I find it hard to believe a real CPA would hide behind an "effective rate" canard. 35% IS the top rate and it's completely possible to pay it, especially on the last dollar earned.

 BTW, at that 35% rate (who knows, you may earn enough to have to pay it someday) there are things called "phase outs" of deductions, thereby reducing the effect of the deductions.

[quote=mikebutler222]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><O:P>

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

Most cap gains in index funds are short term, which is taxed EVERY year at the ordinary rate.

[/quote]

Short term cap gains on index funds make up the majority of their gains? Got a source for that one?

[/quote]

Nope. I made it up.

[/quote]

Uh, no kidding. "Red handed" is what they call this one. Or, if you don’t want to be kind, you call it “lying”.

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

It's impossible to pay 35% in income taxes on one's income. Do the math.

[/quote]

Uh? The top rate is currently 35%, so what do you mean by this?

[/quote]

Standard/itemized deductions bring the marginal rate down to the effective rate. I can't believe that after all of those firms you've been with you haven't picked that up.

[/quote]

Ohhhh, a "all those firms" retort. I'm cut to the quick. After all, I should feel bad about that, shouldn't I? I mean, the big bad boys selling (some FORMERLY SELLING) insurance products and/or working for Jones tell me I should.  And just why is that again? 

Back to the subject. I find it hard to believe a real CPA would hide behind an "effective rate" canard. 35% IS the top rate and it's completely possible to pay it, especially on the last dollar earned.

 BTW, at that 35% rate (who knows, you may earn enough to have to pay it someday) there are things called "phase outs" of deductions, thereby reducing the effect of the deductions.

[/quote]

You're grasping, jobhopper.

[quote=Dirk Diggler]

You're grasping, jobhopper.

[/quote]

LOL, no, little fella' they're called FACTS, we try to use them in this business.

BTW, do detail for us why I should feel hurt by the "jobhopper" comment? I could use a laugh.

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

You're grasping, jobhopper.

[/quote]

LOL, no, little fella' they're called FACTS, we try to use them in this business.

BTW, do detail for us why I should feel hurt by the "jobhopper" comment? I could use a laugh.

[/quote]

You should be proud. Quite proud.

Dirk,

Let's just say Mikebuttler and I haven't seen eye to eye on many things here (I'll leave it at that), but for you to make personal attacks based on an unfair advantage really shows your pitiful demeanor.

Before you start calling people "jobhopper" and the such, why don't you post your CRD # for everyone to see?

I can't wait... 

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

You're grasping, jobhopper.

[/quote]

LOL, no, little fella' they're called FACTS, we try to use them in this business.

BTW, do detail for us why I should feel hurt by the "jobhopper" comment? I could use a laugh.

[/quote]

You should be proud. Quite proud.

[/quote]

As I suspected, litte fella', you're just a passing bit of gas.....

[quote=BankFC]

Dirk,

Let's just say Mikebuttler and I haven't seen eye to eye on many things here (I'll leave it at that), but for you to make personal attacks based on an unfair advantage really shows your pitiful demeanor.

Before you start calling people "jobhopper" and the such, why don't you post your CRD # for everyone to see?

I can't wait... 

[/quote]

I'll give you 10 to 1 the little gasbag passes on your offer. He's already shown himself to be of such low caliber that he'll just make things up, he's not worth enough to worry about or to ruin this forum over.

No doubt he'll crawl back to the pals he has at the ex-insurance salesman's coffee klatch where they high-five each other over selling EIAs for the 10% payout and call honest people with integrity “pikers”.  At least we won’t have to wipe him off the soles of our shoes anymore or allow him to disrupt what has become a fun and somewhat useful board.

[quote=BankFC]

Dirk,

Let's just say Mikebuttler and I haven't seen eye to eye on many things here (I'll leave it at that), but for you to make personal attacks based on an unfair advantage really shows your pitiful demeanor.

Before you start calling people "jobhopper" and the such, why don't you post your CRD # for everyone to see?

I can't wait... 

[/quote]

I'll tell you what...you hold your breath and when I post it, I'll ask around for "blueboy" to let you know.

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=BankFC]

Dirk,

Let's just say Mikebuttler and I haven't seen eye to eye on many things here (I'll leave it at that), but for you to make personal attacks based on an unfair advantage really shows your pitiful demeanor.

Before you start calling people "jobhopper" and the such, why don't you post your CRD # for everyone to see?

I can't wait... 

[/quote]

I'll give you 10 to 1 the little gasbag passes on your offer. He's already shown himself to be of such low caliber that he'll just make things up, he's not worth enough to worry about or to ruin this forum over.

No doubt he'll crawl back to the pals he has at the ex-insurance salesman's coffee klatch where they high-five each other over selling EIAs for the 10% payout and call honest people with integrity “pikers”.  At least we won’t have to wipe him off the soles of our shoes anymore or allow him to disrupt what has become a fun and somewhat useful board.

Does your branch manager know that you are using his resources to play on the internet all day? Do you think he'd like to know?

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=BankFC]

Dirk,

Let's just say Mikebuttler and I haven't seen eye to eye on many things here (I'll leave it at that), but for you to make personal attacks based on an unfair advantage really shows your pitiful demeanor.

Before you start calling people "jobhopper" and the such, why don't you post your CRD # for everyone to see?

I can't wait... 

[/quote]

I'll give you 10 to 1 the little gasbag passes on your offer. He's already shown himself to be of such low caliber that he'll just make things up, he's not worth enough to worry about or to ruin this forum over.

No doubt he'll crawl back to the pals he has at the ex-insurance salesman's coffee klatch where they high-five each other over selling EIAs for the 10% payout and call honest people with integrity “pikers”.  At least we won’t have to wipe him off the soles of our shoes anymore or allow him to disrupt what has become a fun and somewhat useful board.

Does your branch manager know that you are using his resources to play on the internet all day? Do you think he'd like to know?

[/quote]

Ohhhh, a threat. Golly, I'm just shivering. I bet the guys at the coffee klatch gave you that idea. It must really suck to need that kind of crutch.

Anybody have a rag handy? I seem to have picked up something smelly on the sole of my shoe….

[quote=mikebutler222]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><O:P>

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

Most cap gains in index funds are short term, which is taxed EVERY year at the ordinary rate.

[/quote]

Short term cap gains on index funds make up the majority of their gains? Got a source for that one?

[/quote]

Nope. I made it up.

[/quote]

Uh, no kidding. "Red handed" is what they call this one. Or, if you don’t want to be kind, you call it “lying”.

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

It's impossible to pay 35% in income taxes on one's income. Do the math.

[/quote]

Uh? The top rate is currently 35%, so what do you mean by this?

[/quote]

Standard/itemized deductions bring the marginal rate down to the effective rate. I can't believe that after all of those firms you've been with you haven't picked that up.

[/quote]

Ohhhh, a "all those firms" retort. I'm cut to the quick. After all, I should feel bad about that, shouldn't I? I mean, the big bad boys selling (some FORMERLY SELLING) insurance products and/or working for Jones tell me I should.  And just why is that again? 

Back to the subject. I find it hard to believe a real CPA would hide behind an "effective rate" canard. 35% IS the top rate and it's completely possible to pay it, especially on the last dollar earned.

 BTW, at that 35% rate (who knows, you may earn enough to have to pay it someday) there are things called "phase outs" of deductions, thereby reducing the effect of the deductions.

[/quote]

SB, do you mislead people about tax BENEFITS in this manner, also? You can't have it both ways, jobhopper.

Actually, Mike, there is no “phase out” on deductions on 1099 income when you are directly matching business expenses against that income.  At least not as I understand it.  I’ll know more in a few weeks when I get my taxes wrapped up.

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=BankFC]

Dirk,

Let's just say Mikebuttler and I haven't seen eye to eye on many things here (I'll leave it at that), but for you to make personal attacks based on an unfair advantage really shows your pitiful demeanor.

Before you start calling people "jobhopper" and the such, why don't you post your CRD # for everyone to see?

I can't wait... 

[/quote]

I'll give you 10 to 1 the little gasbag passes on your offer. He's already shown himself to be of such low caliber that he'll just make things up, he's not worth enough to worry about or to ruin this forum over.

No doubt he'll crawl back to the pals he has at the ex-insurance salesman's coffee klatch where they high-five each other over selling EIAs for the 10% payout and call honest people with integrity “pikers”.  At least we won’t have to wipe him off the soles of our shoes anymore or allow him to disrupt what has become a fun and somewhat useful board.

Does your branch manager know that you are using his resources to play on the internet all day? Do you think he'd like to know?

[/quote]

Ohhhh, a threat. Golly, I'm just shivering. I bet the guys at the coffee klatch gave you that idea. It must really suck to need that kind of crutch.

Anybody have a rag handy? I seem to have picked up something smelly on the sole of my shoe….

[/quote]

Ok guys-I realize that some of this was playful jesting and spirited debate.  Some of it, however, is not.  This forum can be entertaining and useful, and I'd hate to see it get out of control.

I'm not calling for censorship from anyone else.  We all know how we feel about that.  I am calling for a little bit of restraing and maturity.  Just a little bit, though, as certainly we want to keep having fun! ;-)

If the product is going to give them a bond like return Dirk, why wouldn't you just sell them a bond, which has advantages over the EIA like:

1) Much Better liquidity (which also has implications for a clients "safety", which you make a lot of references to)

2) Much easier to understand 

The only conclusion I have come to in researching these products is that they are designed to deceive the client into believing that they are going to get "market like" returns (taken from the brochures of many different EIA's).  Now, just like the politicians who dress up terds with names like "No child left behind act", or "The Patriot Act" or try to bend "Global Warming" into "Global Climate Change", to manipulate the perception of these issues (No I'm not a Liberal, just examples that came to mind), these annuities shout from their rooftops about the magical land of "market like" returns without "market like" risk.

Sure, Dirk, there are people out there who these might be appropriate for, but if you were to clearly explain this product along with a bond with similar credit risk (and to explain that they will have similar returns under the best of circumstances) to the issuing insurance company and similar maturity as the surrender period and were to ask your client which one they would want, Do you think they'd say "Gee Dirk, gimme that super complex gizmo that takes a CPA or CFP to fully understand"

Also, the compounding benefits of tax deferal are very minimal at best( and surely don't outway the safety offered in a more liquid instrument) if the proceeds are going to actually be spent.  You should know this as a CPA.

I have no interest in getting into a pissing match, because frankly Dirk, you are much more witty than I and your diggler is certainly bigger than mine.  Plus, I get the impression that you sincerely believe in what you are selling, so I'll make no judgements about your motives here.

I'm White and Jewish. My diggler can't be bigger than yours.

Just to set the record straight. I ONLY do business with people who need what I do. That's it. Period. I have a very narrow focus. I know it sounds crazy, but my business has exploded since I committed to this approach. Criticizing me is like criticizing a heart surgeon because he doesn't do brain surgery. It makes you guys look really dumb.

I'm not interested in being a jack of all trades, like you guys are. It doesn't pay as well. There's a million of you out there. How many guys do you know that are positioned in people's minds as annuity specialists?

You people are quick to assume that I don't know what I'm doing or that I'm out to screw people. You couldn't be more wrong on both points. Are you guys aware that there is a direct relationship between telling the whole truth and closing the sale? I give people more credit for being smart enough to take in all the facts and arrive at a good decision. I don't assume that the public is as stupid as you do. People love my frank, candid approach to them.

I don't have a problem helping people understand what I do. If they don't understand, they're out. Just because YOU can't explain things clearly doesn't mean that I can't.

Now, go put some numbers on the board so your boss will let you have your chair back.

Dirk,

Do you have any comments on the bond vs annuity question?

Diggler not bigger than mine?  I saw the movie.

Ohhhhh, I get it now, you're not the REAL Dirk Diggler.  Stupid me.

[quote=joedabrkr]Actually, Mike, there is no "phase out" on deductions on 1099 income when you are directly matching business expenses against that income.  At least not as I understand it.  I'll know more in a few weeks when I get my taxes wrapped up.[/quote]

We were talking "income" along the lines of "no one pays 35% on their income", and the standard deduction was mentioned as a reason why the marginal and effective tax rates differ. It's those deductions, standard and personal, that have phase outs, I wasn't talking about business deductions. I suspect you're right about business deductions.

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><O:P>

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

Most cap gains in index funds are short term, which is taxed EVERY year at the ordinary rate.

[/quote]

Short term cap gains on index funds make up the majority of their gains? Got a source for that one?

[/quote]

Nope. I made it up.

[/quote]

Uh, no kidding. "Red handed" is what they call this one. Or, if you don’t want to be kind, you call it “lying”.

[quote=Dirk Diggler][quote=mikebutler222][quote=Dirk Diggler]

It's impossible to pay 35% in income taxes on one's income. Do the math.

[/quote]

Uh? The top rate is currently 35%, so what do you mean by this?

[/quote]

Standard/itemized deductions bring the marginal rate down to the effective rate. I can't believe that after all of those firms you've been with you haven't picked that up.

[/quote]

Ohhhh, a "all those firms" retort. I'm cut to the quick. After all, I should feel bad about that, shouldn't I? I mean, the big bad boys selling (some FORMERLY SELLING) insurance products and/or working for Jones tell me I should.  And just why is that again? 

Back to the subject. I find it hard to believe a real CPA would hide behind an "effective rate" canard. 35% IS the top rate and it's completely possible to pay it, especially on the last dollar earned.

 BTW, at that 35% rate (who knows, you may earn enough to have to pay it someday) there are things called "phase outs" of deductions, thereby reducing the effect of the deductions.

[/quote]

SB, do you mislead people about tax BENEFITS in this manner, also? You can't have it both ways, jobhopper.

[/quote]

Feel free to point out the errors, BDG. After all, it's only fair given that I pointed out your errors/fictions on the cap gains on index funds and the top rate being 35% on personal income.  

Dirk said:

 I don't assume that the public is as stupid as you do. People love my frank, candid approach to them.

Reply:

I appreciate that you are frank and cadid, never the less I have worked with some extraordinarily educated people, who struggle with understanding investing basics.

I equate it to this:

I am an accomplished musician and assuming that you are not, if I sat down and tried to explain to you (however candidly) the basics of music theory; including modes, harmonic relationships of intervals, circle of fifths, time signature and rhythm; your head would be spinning before I even got through explaining to you why the Aeolian mode and the major scale (ionian mode) have the same exact notes yet sound very different.  Same goes for an auto mechanic trying to explain why the anti-matter combustion chamber needs to have it's positronic fluid checked and that it is the proper viscosity so the Flumer coils don't overheat.

Point is, your clients don't understand it no matter how candidly you explain it.  If they were capable of understanding it they wouldn't need to rely on trusting you to buy it themselves (and save on the 10% commission).  People love the confidence that a frank approach offers, not the data.