[quote=Amazon]I'm sure the families of dead soldiers take solace in knowing that the body count is relatively low...

But still, do you think any human life and the anguish the inhabitants of that area are going through is worth it?


[/quote]

I really do not think that the point of this war is JUST FOR the inhabitants of IRAQ.  It is a BIGGER issue than that.  We are trying to set an example that terrorism will not be tolerated.

Where would this world be now, 5 years later if Saddam was not dead.  Where would we be.  do you think this world would be a safer place?  You truly do not understand that the soldiers are not just fighting for IRAQ freedom.  They are fighting for the world.

[quote=Naqoyqatsi] [quote=Amazon]So, you can stay there. Then you've got political instability because you can't force a democracy, you've got the debt growing ever larger, the death count growing ever larger, and you've also got an increasing amount of hatred from certain factions.

Alternatively, leave and let them work it out (It might be bloody, but it isn't exactly calm there right now, is it?). This keeps the cost down and the soldier death count down.

I don't care what you think the "American way" is; I'm Canadian anyways. All I can do is tell you that it is within America's best interests to leave.

[/quote]

yeah but pusses like Hull want another Vietnam b/c they're not the ones that have to go fight in it. They say dumb things like "we wish there was another 9-11." i'm sure the twin tower victim's family are pulling for another attack too.
[/quote]

I may be wrong but having observed his communication style, I took Hull's point to mean, there is always the possibility of another terror attack in the background, and what we are doing now is a proactive attempt to stay in control, from a position of strength, and many Americans just take for granted the relative stability of the past few years. I don't get where you see him as being  pussy.

As far as having to go fight in it, that’s dangerous and tragic. Looks like the whole thing is poorly executed. But it is a career choice, and if nobody wants to do it, or take some kind of (moral) stand, looks like we can just plan on becoming a nation of fundamentalist Muslim pussys.

I still don’t get how the Islamic religion is relevant… Terrorists just misuse it to their own ends; real followers of Islam aren’t allowed to do such… things.

In closing, I’d like to quote one of the Founding Fathers (forgot which one): “You can’t force democracy.”.

Maybe you can't force democracy, but you can't just sit back and watch a Dictator kills all of his people.

That's why we're stuck.  From a logical perspective, it is not winnable, but from an emotional perspective its possible.

You’re right Amazon, not all muslims are terrorists…but unfortunately all terrorists are muslims.

Not really, Trsyn. At the moment any terrorist of consequence is a muslim, but I doubt there’s a single religion that is not guilty of having some… fanatics.

To FreeLunch: Yes, you can. It was done for a good while, and continues to happen now. Go try Kim Jong-Il… the one that actually said he DID have WMD.

We all have our opinions, the reality is there is just no solution to this problem. We pull out, and it becomes a launching pad for terrorism that will reach around the entire western world. We stay, and more and more of our guys die, with no chance of winnning. Honestly, we are in a no win situation, with no right answer. I fear that what happened in Glasgow today is just the beginning of the spread of terrorism to the west. A matter of time, before it returns to our soil. I fear it is also a matter of time before IRAN explodes and somehow, I am not EXACTLY sure how, really causes a big problem. And with our troops tied up, in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will be powerless to do anythiing. Can you imagine where this could lead/ A no win war, with a U.S. without the manpower to control its own destiny, and Gd forbid, no choice but to turn the middle east into another Hiroshima?

Its ghastly and frightening, but not impossible.

One things for sure, most of the world population that is alive today, will be living with this for the rest of their lives. 

[quote=pratoman]

We all have our opinions, the reality is there is just no solution to this problem. We pull out, and it becomes a launching pad for terrorism that will reach around the entire western world. We stay, and more and more of our guys die, with no chance of winnning. Honestly, we are in a no win situation, with no right answer. I fear that what happened in Glasgow today is just the beginning of the spread of terrorism to the west. A matter of time, before it returns to our soil. I fear it is also a matter of time before IRAN explodes and somehow, I am not EXACTLY sure how, really causes a big problem. And with our troops tied up, in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will be powerless to do anythiing. Can you imagine where this could lead/ A no win war, with a U.S. without the manpower to control its own destiny, and Gd forbid, no choice but to turn the middle east into another Hiroshima?

Its ghastly and frightening, but not impossible.

One things for sure, most of the world population that is alive today, will be living with this for the rest of their lives. 

[/quote]

Man Pratoman!  You are so right on many points.

My Bashing of Democrats was maybe not justified, however, it is the people that want to be PASSIVE and act like we can't make a difference that pisses me off.

When I talked to a soldier who has come back from Iraq, one thing he told me made me think of the vietnam situation.

All those guys look the same from the surface.  Nobody on the outside knows who the enemy is, UNLESS the IRAQIS "snitch" - and then they are jeopardizing their own lives.  Everyone is making a sacrifice, but we can't leave.  At the same time, we can't leave our country vulnerable.  Brutal situation.

Well, Hiroshima’s a city, while the Middle East is comprised of multiple nations… If the US were to try and nuke the whole thing odds are a nuclear winter would ensue, with a good chance of a global catastrophe. 

[quote=Naqoyqatsi] [quote=Bobby Hull]Part of me wishes for another attack on our soil, just to shut those mother f**kers up. [/quote]
Couldn't resist this one.

Man Hull, now you sound like the Democrat. While your at it go vandalize some HUMMERS with your Green Peace pals. Be careful what you wish for; you might actually have to grow a pair and pick up a weapon. Don't ask don't tell brotha.

My Guard Unit is deploying to Iraq early next year.In between missions I'll be sure to post...

[/quote]

Son, I make Rush Limbaugh look like John Kerry.

[quote=Amazon] At the moment any terrorist of consequence is a muslim, but I doubt there's a single religion that is not guilty of having some... fanatics. [/quote]

Call me when elements of those other religions start flying planes into buildings and preaching that killing non-believers is the path to nirvana. The refusal to the see the enemy for who he is is a major part of the problem.

Who is Ron Paul??? maybe he can resolve this problem... and many others.....

google ron paul or go to ronpaul2008.com

Give me liberty or give me death!

[quote=FreeLunch]

I really do not think that the point of this war is JUST FOR the inhabitants of IRAQ.  It is a BIGGER issue than that.  We are trying to set an example that terrorism will not be tolerated.

Where would this world be now, 5 years later if Saddam was not dead.  Where would we be.  do you think this world would be a safer place?  You truly do not understand that the soldiers are not just fighting for IRAQ freedom.  They are fighting for the world.

[/quote]

The world is a safer place today?

We are fighting terrorist? Where? Certainly not in Iraq.

Unfortunately for us, the world, and every person whose blood has been shed on Iraqi soil the smartest guys were not in the room the day the towers were attacked.

Fortunately-At the end of the Gulf War many Americans criticized Bush 1 for not finishing the job getting Saddam and completely destroying the Iraqi army. At that time, we did have some of the smartest guys in the room to guide us. They realized that killing Saddam and destroying his army would destabilize the country. That the religious tribal factions that make up the country would then fight for control and that Iraq's neighbors, especially Iran, would move to control the region. They realized that the 500,000 man army we had in place wasn't big enough to deal with the consequence of such an action.

Unfortunately- The Wolfowitz Doctrine outlining a new world order and embracing pre-emptive military strikes was adopted by Bush 2 and has become the Bush Doctrine. The deep thinkers who knew better either weren't there or weren't able to stop the blunderers from making one of history's most colossal mistakes. And here we sit, mired in a civil war, with our borders wide open, and terrorist running free world wide.

We cannot fight an Idealogy with an army.

yes, I saw that frontline episode also.

[quote=BondGuy] <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

The world is a safer place today? [/quote]

I guess it was "safer" before we fought back...even in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Afghanistan. That was true before the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, in fact every war I can think of. That’s not the same as saying the world won’t be a safer place after we’ve won.

[quote=BondGuy]We are fighting terrorist? Where? Certainly not in Iraq.[/quote]

Al Qaeda is in Iraq, they say the central battle ground is Iraq. I'd take their word for it. They also say we're a paper tiger and will run in the face of casualties. They say following our retreat, they’ll create a new safe zone/training ground for themselves. I hope we don't prove them right.

 [quote=BondGuy]

We cannot fight an Idealogy with an army. [/quote]

 Ask the Imperialists in Japan and the Fascists in German and Italy if they agree..

The Salem witches survived the Spanish Inquisition, the Jews survived the holocaust, and the extremist Muslims will survive the War on terror.

I cannot believe you would classify extremist Muslim terrorists with two other groups who were wrongfully persecuted. People like you are the reason we may never win the war against terrorism.

The fact they were wrongfully discriminated doesn’t change the idea of the argument that ideologies rarely die at the end of a barrel.

[quote=Amazon]The <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Salem witches survived the Spanish Inquisition, ...[/quote]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 Buy a history book, please... hint; start by looking at the centuries and continents of those two events…

[quote=Amazon] the Jews survived the holocaust, and the extremist Muslims will survive the War on terror. [/quote]

 Hmmmm, you're equating the Jews, a people in their entirety, with the segment of Islam infected with radicalism? You realize the Holocaust was an attempt to exterminate and entire group of people, while the poorly named “war on terror” is about defending modernity from a radical fringe that would erase it and replace it with a 15th Century existence, right?

Back to your “all religions” post, it’s basic moral equivalency, and as misguided as your logic above.