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[quote=Put Trader][quote=Stan]You refused to answer any questions I posed to you about wash-out rates and how well your hiring crystal ball is, so I’ll assume that’s because it’s a weak point in your argument.[/quote]

I am not refusing to answer it--it's just another nonsensical point of view you have.

When selecting somebody to fill a desk the manager owes it to himself to choose the most likely winner.

If only 15% of white guys make it, but only 5% of blacks make it only a fool would counsel, "Take the black guy, take the black guy" when the challenge is to hire a "keeper."

[/quote]

You do realize the difference is one in three, right?  Since the average manager's "aim" at "keepers" is that poor (15%), it's pretty funny that you assume it's sharp enough to clear that 33% hurdle.

 [quote=Put Trader]
In the sh*thousefirm environment you appear to come from the manager hires anybody who applies--but in the rarfied air of the real firms each manager gets a shot or two a year at a new hire.

[/quote]

ROFLMAO. Everyone here knows THAT’S a steamy load.

[quote=Put Trader]
They, the managers, are not social engineers …

[/quote]

You keep repeating that line as if it’s something profound. It’s just as silly as your assertion that there’s limited hiring in the industry. For crying out loud the turn over rate is astounding. There are people being hired across the firm everyday in groups of ten. Just what are you talking about? My office is a tiny satellite arrangement, with only 12 people and we’ve hired two ALREADY this year.

The “sh*thousefirm” where I started, the one with the “token” CEO, the campus in Princeton and the 15,000 reps had over 70 in my training class, and you expect me to believe there wasn’t room for a woman or minority?

Thankfully those boiler room runners (say, aren’t REAL boiler rooms almost always exclusively white males?) so fit to hire some. In fact, I know another “sh*thousefrim” that’s proved you wrong in your hiring doctrine by having a woman in their top five producers in their largest region.

I can see it’s pointless to go any further with you, as you’ve dipped into self-parodyland….

[quote=stanwbrown]<p =“Msonormal” style=“margin: 0in 0in 0pt;”><o:p></o:p>

Then there’s always the fact that it’s illegal….

[quote=Put Trader] [quote=stanwbrown]

Then there’s always the fact that it’s illegal….

[/quote]

Should it be?  Is it the role of government to demand that a private industry not be allowed to hire whomever that private industry chooses to hire?

[/quote]

Yeah, if what they "chose" is to refuse to hire people because of their race or gender.

The excuse that these sterling judges of potential hires can tell that women and minorities won't "work out" even though their best efforts only give them a 15% success rate is just laughable.

The good news is even if it wasn't illegal, most people would simply refuse to folow your hiring doctrine.

The
“sh*thousefirm” where I started, the one with the “token” CEO, the
campus in Princeton and the 15,000 reps had over 70 in my training
class, and you expect me to believe there wasn’t room for a woman or
minority?



Been there many times–many times.  Depending on when you were there I may have been at the podium.



There were 70 or so in your training class–that would be from 450 or so branches.



As I said, in real brokerage firms the managers get a few chances a
year to make a hire–some branches are so stable that there is no
turnover for years while others are known for turmoil.



It averages out to between two and three hires a year per branch and
the managers are going to do their damndest to hire somebody who will
be there in twenty years instead of washing out in twenty months.

The good news is even if it wasn’t illegal, most people would simply refuse to folow your hiring doctrine.



Right, which is why there are so many blacks and women in the business–everybody but me hires them.

Put, if I’m reading you correctly it seems you’re working off the premise that minorities and women have a lesser chance of success in our business than white males.  Is that correct?  If so, I’m not sure that’s the case.  As I think back over the years, while there certainly were fewer minorities and women hired, it seems like a much higher percentage of those are still in the business.  If I’m correct in reading your premise, then before building off of it you better be sure it’s an accurate one.

[quote=Duke#1]Put, if I’m reading you correctly it seems you’re working
off the premise that minorities and women have a lesser chance of
success in our business than white males.  Is that correct? 
If so, I’m not sure that’s the case.  As I think back over the
years, while there certainly were fewer minorities and women hired, it
seems like a much higher percentage of those are still in the
business.  If I’m correct in reading your premise, then before
building off of it you better be sure it’s an accurate one.[/quote]



Yep, it’s my hypothesis that women and minorities have the odds so
stacked against them that it’s foolish to hire them instead of a white
male.



That is not to say that there are not successful exceptions–however
when lists are compiled the names at the top of the lists are
invariably white males.



I base my point of view on several things, including investor attitudes
that strongly favor white males as well as genetic differences in the
skill sets necessary to make it in the business which also strongly
favor white males.



I understand that the point of view is certainly not politically correct–but that does not make it wrong.

[quote=Put Trader]The “sh*thousefirm” where I started, the one with the “token” CEO, the campus in Princeton and the 15,000 reps had over 70 in my training class, and you expect me to believe there wasn’t room for a woman or minority?

Been there many times--many times.  Depending on when you were there I may have been at the podium.
[/quote]

ROFLMAO, were you wearing a hood at the time?

[quote=Put Trader]
There were 70 or so in your training class--that would be from 450 or so branches.

[/quote]

And that would be ONE training class of closeto a dozen during the year.

[quote=Put Trader]
As I said, in real brokerage firms the managers get a few chances a year to make a hire--some branches are so stable that there is no turnover for years while others are known for turmoil.

[/quote]

As I said before ROFLMAO...as I pointed out, my experience has been with "real brokerage firms" and managers are hiring more than 2-3 per year, even in small offices....

"Yep, it's my hypothesis that women and minorities have the odds so stacked against them that it's foolish to hire them instead of a white male."

Amazing, simply amazing..

[quote=Put Trader]The good news is even if it wasn't illegal, most people would simply refuse to folow your hiring doctrine.

Right, which is why there are so many blacks and women in the business--everybody but me hires them.
[/quote]

You've confused people like you who, in  a blanket approach refuse to hire them, with well intended people who have a hard time finding qualified applicants.

And that would be ONE training class of closeto a dozen during the year.



Yep, ten to be exact.



So 700 people go through Princeton’s rookie training each year–less than 2 per branch on average.

You’ve confused people like you who, in  a blanket approach refuse to
hire them, with well intended people who have a hard time finding
qualified applicants.



What in the world does “Well Intended”  have to do with anything we’re talking about.



A brokerage office is a business–and the man or woman in charge of
that office had best do whatever they can to ensure that their little
fiefdom is a roaring success.

[quote=dancethedrink]

[quote=Put Trader] [quote=inquisitive]So
smokers are stupid?  I used to smoke.  One thing I loved to
do was stand outside the building with other brokers and the occasional
trader and shoot the breeze.  It’s great way to network, discuss
current events, and talk about business.

Not all of us like to do our socializing between toilet stall dividers.
[/quote]

I am 17 months off cigarrettes and I still consider myself a complete tit for having been a smoker.....why? Because the urge to have a cigarette is still there, everytime a stressfult occassion comes into my life - it is usually accompanied by the dreamy aroma of a malboro red cigarette.....which is an awful sensation to fight off......and that problem will stay with me to the day I die - and lets face it, when I started I knew the facts - that over 100,000 people die each year from cigarette related lung cancer, it took over five packets of cigarettes to be smoked before I overcame the reek and coughing sensation my lungs were being subjected to ..........if that is not the definition of a moron - what is........

[quote=Put Trader]The harsh reality in the United States is the races
do not get along and as a result they do not trust each other.

[/quote]



The harsh truth is that real differences exist between the races, stark and consistent.



Differences exist between genders, too.



It’s true.  You cannot deny that.  Even if you want to, you can’t.



And by the way, some people just won’t get along for arbitrary
reasons.  Germans didn’t get along with Poles–and they were all
white.  Same for Irish Catholics and Protestants.  Hell, even
same race street gangs don’t get along.



If it isn’t race, it’s religion or nationality or a whole host of other reasons.



Some people just have to be difficult.

[quote=Put Trader]

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.  When it
comes time to be chosen for the pickup basketball game it’s good to be
a big tall black guy–but when it comes time to being chosen as a
financial advisor it’s best to be a good looking white guy between 35
and 55 years old.


[/quote]



Yes.  You’ve mentioned something else:  being good looking.



The fact is that good looking people get opportunities that others
don’t get.  That is sad.  Personally, if I were hiring an
assistant or something, the last thing I’d want is an attractive woman
distracting me all day.



I guess we all discriminate whether we want to or not.  (How many
women discriminate based on looks regarding who they will date?)



Who’s going to make a better impression on a client, an attractive
clean-cut guy in a nice suit or a financial genius in jeans and a
t-shirt?



Marketing is a big part of it.  And for whatever reason, blacks
may be at a disadvantage.  As are unattractive people who don’t
dress for success.



I know at the places I’ve worked, they beg and plead for blacks to come in and interview.  Very few do.



I’ll bet you there are more black drug dealers in America than black investment advisors.  That is quite sad.

[quote=stanwbrown]

“Yep, it’s my hypothesis that women and
minorities have the odds so stacked against them that it’s foolish to
hire them instead of a white male.”

Amazing, simply amazing..

[quote=Put Trader]I know I’ve prospected black business owners a number of times only to be told they wanted to bring their business to another minority. The same applies to some Jewish prospects I’ve approached. “Supporting your own” has a real attraction to some minorities, which would undermine your “even blacks prefer to hire white advisors” theory.

I'd agree that that is true among the Jews--fortunately for them there's no shortage of Jewish brokers from which to choose.

It is far less true among blacks--it's got to do with Affirmative Action.  Blacks are just as likely as the rest of us to conclude that the reason the broker has a black face is because of the black face rather than skills and intelligence.

Often a black middle manager knows that he, himself, is really nothing more than  an affirmative action hire pretending that he's equal to everybody else--and he's damn reluctant to trust his future, his money, to a fellow dumbass pretending to be something he's not.

Again--for the umpteenth time--there is no reason to declare, "I'm not going to do business with him because he's a white guy."

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.  When it comes time to be chosen for the pickup basketball game it's good to be a big tall black guy--but when it comes time to being chosen as a financial advisor it's best to be a good looking white guy between 35 and 55 years old.
[/quote]

Wow....and where is our friend metellnoname who thinks PutTrader is such a font of truth?  Where are you metellnoname?

[quote=Put Trader]

You even admit that there is truth to the point of view that blacks have a very difficult--almost impossible--row to hoe.  The black guy who fills in for Limbaugh, Walter Williams, is a professor somewhere who believes that it is doing blacks an injustice to invite them into environments where they are destined to fail.  He does not believe, for example, that colleges and universities should accept blacks on the off chance that they might make it.  That when they fail the failure will affect their psyche to the point that they may for the rest of their lives be failures.

Black guys can be great insurance salesmen--but serving as a financial advisor is a far more tricky role.  Mr. and Mrs. Jones can buy a whole life policy from a black guy confident that if it is the wrong thing for them they can adjust that mistake later.  They do not have such confidence in accepting advice regarding investments.

Yesterday I alluded to bad doctors.  It's said that they bury their mistakes.  Well, as we all know that is not always true--there are plenty of live victims of botched medical procedures.  Often the victim's life, while affected, is not severely affected.

That is not the case when it comes down  to an incompetent financial advisor whose incompetence resulted in a loss of assets so significant that one would simply wish they were dead.

It's possible to lead a semi normal life if a doctor amputated the wrong leg--it's not possible to lead a semi-normal life if you approached a financial advisor with a nest egg that disappeared because he or she was incompetent.

I assure you that nobody would feel comfortable to be lying in a hospital, about to undergo elective surgery, and have an unexpected black doctor come in and say, "Your regular doctor is away on a family emergency so I'll be doing  your procedure......."

Imagine that you were behind a one way mirror about to choose a financial advisor from a group of three individuals--sort of like in a lineup.

You're told that each of the three is a college graduate and each of them has been through the brokerage firm's training program--essentially they're "equal."

The curtain opens to reveal four 26 year olds, all dressed in very appropriate business attire, all well groomed.  They are not going to speak--you'll have to make your choice based on what you see.

Are you going to choose the white guy, the white girl, the black guy or the black girl?

You know as well as I do that a huge--as in HUGE--majority of people will choose the white guy, followed by the white girl, followed by the black girl, followed by the black guy.  Perhaps nobody will choose the black guy.

[quote=stanwbrown]

I suppose that since you didn’t answer my question, you would have thrown out the resumes of someone named Condoleezza, or Oprah or maybe even Colin. If you ever find yourself giving a deposition in a lawsuit about racist hiring practices, you’ll want to keep your theory to yourself. You may well think you’re doing the potential hire a favor, but you aren’t, it’s wrong and I have little doubt it’s illegal as well.

“I have not been in a room when Sarano Kelly was talking but I have been in plenty of rooms when people like him are working the group up.”

I wasn’t thinking of him in his role of “working the group up”, but in his old role as a rep. Somebody looked past the name and the black skin and hired him. They were well rewarded for doing so. 

[/quote]

Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell both rose to where they rose because of Affirmative Action--especially General Powell who is actually nothing more than a incredibly lucky at being in the right place at the right time.

Oprah is what she is because she works her ass off and has been willing to take chances.  She also has a personality that is appealing to the women who watch her show--if anything she is the proof that racism does NOT exist in this country.

Sarano Kelly has all the potential of being  a flash in the pan.  Get back with me in ten years about him.  Joseph Jett is another Kidder veteran who did a lot of gross and is no longer in production.

With each of these individuals--Condi, Colin, Oprah and Sarano--none of them is competing for the trust of an individual.  All are operating on a different level--it's a lot like asking people, "Do you believe that everybody should be allowed to live anywhere they can afford?"

About 99% of us would say yes.

But when asked, "Would you allow a black person to manage your money?" you're going to solicit the same inner feelings that would come out if you asked, "Would you like your child to marry somebody from another race?"

If you're a soul who says, "It would not bother me if my son or daughter married outside of our race" you should go look in the mirror and  behold somebody who lies to themselves.

The role of finanical advisor is exceptionally personal--when done right the client opens up completely to the advisor.  People are going to choose somebody that they feel remarkably comfortable with.

You know it, I know it, all God's children know it.
[/quote]

Wow...where do I start? 

Do you REALLY believe that most people would prefer to lose a leg over losing money?  Holy hell...I think money is important, but I'd rather keep my leg.

I might choose a 26 year old as my protege, registered assistant, or a junior broker, but not as my financial advisor, no matter what color they were.  Yes first impressions matter a great deal, but nobody would choose a financial advisor SOLEY for their appearance, except perhaps someone who is extremely bigoted.  I would be much more interested in hearing what they had to say first.

So Condi and Colin made it where they were because of Affirmative Action, but Oprah Winfrey, the popular icon, made it because of her hard work and natural appeal to housewives?  Wow....do you realize who totally demeaning that is to all parties involved?  Do you really mean to tell me that Colin Powell became the highest ranking military officer in this country because of a racial preference program?  Did we then make him Secretary of State not because of his accopmlishments and his intellect but rather as a result of some racial quota at the highest levels of our government?  Wow....are you KIDDING ME????  It scares the dickens out of me that you could actually believe your own BS!

No it honestly wouldn't matter to me if my daughter married a black man or a man of any other race or creed if he was a good man.....that simple.  Believe it or not.  I don't care if you do.  Your opinions would hardly matter to me if they weren't so damn disturbing.

Metellnoname...where are you?  Your 'buddy' Put Trader has shown his true stripes.  Now is a time where perhaps your comments, even with your bitterness, are sorely needed.

[quote=Put Trader][quote=Stan]I don’t see how there’s a contradiction in admitting that there’s a tough road ahead for a minority hire AND saying that it IS possible and managers are wrong to dismiss that possibility entirely. Sorry, but your crystal ball about who will, and who will not succeed just isn’t that well calibrated.[/quote]

I have never said that it is impossible to succeed as a black broker, what I have said is that it happens so rarely that a manager is a fool to waste a desk on anybody other than a middle aged white male.

The brokerage business is not a social laboratory, it is the epitome of the "private" sector.  My theme is that this is one of the few businesses where customers are driven by a vast array of emotions that culminate in a relationship that, when done right, is as deeply personal as a marriage.

Against that backdrop I do think it's unfair to managers to have their superiors telling them to hire a minority and I think it's unfair to the minority to be hired.

The industry can provide opportunities for minorities in operations, investment banking, public relations and a host of other areas.  But it's just plain bullheaded to think that minorities are going to be able to reach the goals set for whites in the selling side of the business.

How do you force investors to do business with somebody who they may consider to be a good enough guy around town--but, for whatever reason, they don't want to tell him how much money they have in investments and/or open up in any number of other ways?

Leave the social engineering where it belongs--which is........you know social engineering doesn't really belong anywhere come to think of it.
[/quote]

Oh man....well Stan....I think we got the answer to why there are so few minorities in the retail end of the business.  Too many guys like Put Trader are doing this hiring and the trading.

This stuff is more disturbing every time I read it.  Some of this sounds like the sanitized disguised hatred spouted by the newest generation of white supremacists.  Do you hang out with David Duke?

I can't believe the grief I'm taking from metellnoname and to see someone putting this stuff on the table.  **shakes head**  It's people like this who truly perpetuate institutionalized racism in our business....and yet they rationalize it in their own minds as "pragmatic business decisions".

[quote=Joe]I can’t believe the grief I’m taking from metellnoname and to see
someone putting this stuff on the table.  shakes head  It’s people
like this who truly perpetuate institutionalized racism in our
business…and yet they rationalize it in their own minds as
"pragmatic business decisions".[/quote]



Can you cite a single thing about the point of view I am espousing that
is not in the best interest of a branch manager and his branch?



From where I sit if a black broker causes a single potential customer
to fail to open an account because they do want to do business with a
black broker that is one client too many.



The fact is that when investors of any rarce wander into a brokerage
firm looking for advice they expect to encounter a white man. 
Nobody, as in nobody, is going to not want the advice of a white man,
but there are lots of people who would not trust the advice of a woman
or a black.



It’s nonsensical to think that if you hire a woman broker your branch
will open accounts with women that would not have been opened any other
way–oh sure there are a few militants who might only do business with
another woman, but those women are not opening accounts at the Smith
Barney office in Dayton, OH.



Even more ridiculous is the belief that black brokers attract more
assets than they turn away.  What do you figure, 5% of the
country’s blacks make investment decisions for themselves?  Five
percent of twelve percent is less than one percent.



Does it make sense to hire an individual who might appeal to less than
1% of the population when that desk could be occupied by a person who
does not cause the issue to even be considered?