[quote=bspears]

So Borker, we can just agree your mother in law could put her money at E trade, set up a rebalancing quarterly and cut you out of the picture, because you don't manage money...you sit on it..and make sales calls.  This whole buy and hold your firm blows sounds good in theory, but guaranteed the conversation your mother in law and wife are having, aren't real flattering.  Good luck with the buy and hold..it will come back....I think someone on here said something about the market always goes up...And yes the clients I put into fixed rates last August are STILL happy, and the ones who declined my offer..well ...I documented the conversation....and we may be having a conversation in October about a move back....How many of your buds have you been buying BAC for on the way down...down ...down...down...down....down....I bet the up day had you feeling real good yesterday...

No, I am absolutely, positively NOT a money manager, and I refuse to pretend or proclaim otherwise. I don't have the background, training, etc., to determine which asset classes I should move in and out of and when.

As for the Polaris product - it has sub account offerings from SunAmerica, Alliance Bernstein, American, Columbia, Davis, Edge Asset Management, Federated, Franklin, Goldman, JPMorgan, Lord Abbett, Marsico, MFS, Oppy, PIMCO, Putnam, Van Kampen, Wellington, and Wells Cap Mgmt.  Management fees between .53 and 1.85 on the subaccounts.  M&E of 85bps including admin fee.  A share pricing schedule identical to most mutual funds.  No surrender schedule or charges.  ROA can be combined with MFD assets held with any of the Jones preferred fund families.    MAV death bene included at no additional cost.  Marketlock is a GWMB with a 50bps cost on the benefit base.  They have other version of income benes too. 

No I didn’t, but I guarantee you if the broker I took the acct from would have had this conversation I wouldn’t have seen this lady.  See, you can blow this emotion thing all up…but the bottom line isyou’re working with THEIR money…not yours.  What are you going to do if the market keeps heading down to 10000 or lower…are you still holding on.  I have a client I took from someone back in 2003.  At that time he had 270k.  His broker let his acct ride from 900k to 270k…the whole time the broker kept saying…hold on…it will come back…blah blah blah and this guy would go in and say"man…should we do something here…I’m down 100k, 200k ,300k…and “Oh…Spiff, We can’t let our emotions dictate our accts…the market always goes up” and then he never heard from his broker again…I got his acct back to 570…I put all but 100k into short term cd’s last year…( I wish I would have moved all of it…)…WHAT REAL VALUE DO YOU BRING TO THE TABLE SPIFFY…REAL VALUE…THAT YOUR CLIENTS CAN’T GET ON A WEBSITE??? Can I predict tops and bottoms, no but if I have any intelligence I can manage accts  along with emotions of my clients.  I bet the clients you sold A shares to back in OCT 07 are reallllll happy with you and your hold on comments…order taker.

Borker, if the market breaks below 10800, watch out below.  Can you handle it.  You never said at what point the market was at when he pulled the guy out…was it 12300 or 12700 or 12000…so in essence he is still money ahead.  You said a few months ago…so he missed the wonderful drop in June…that we all were saying “let’s just cancel June” He did…kudos. If you can’t manage money, then by all means transfer your accts to someone who can. This is your mother in laws money for God’s sake.  Move out of the way, so your wife has something to inherit…I’d hate for you to be the one who sat and watched your friends money wither away…“Honey, lets just move our money from Borker and put into a CD”…“He’s so new at this…are we confident he knows what he is doing”

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

As for the Polaris product - it has sub account offerings from SunAmerica, Alliance Bernstein, American, Columbia, Davis, Edge Asset Management, Federated, Franklin, Goldman, JPMorgan, Lord Abbett, Marsico, MFS, Oppy, PIMCO, Putnam, Van Kampen, Wellington, and Wells Cap Mgmt.  Management fees between .53 and 1.85 on the subaccounts.  M&E of 85bps including admin fee.  A share pricing schedule identical to most mutual funds.  No surrender schedule or charges.  ROA can be combined with MFD assets held with any of the Jones preferred fund families.    MAV death bene included at no additional cost.  Marketlock is a GWMB with a 50bps cost on the benefit base.  They have other version of income benes too. 

No I didn’t, but I guarantee you if the broker I took the acct from would have had this conversation I wouldn’t have seen this lady.  See, you can blow this emotion thing all up…but the bottom line isyou’re working with THEIR money…not yours.  What are you going to do if the market keeps heading down to 10000 or lower…are you still holding on.  I have a client I took from someone back in 2003.  At that time he had 270k.  His broker let his acct ride from 900k to 270k…the whole time the broker kept saying…hold on…it will come back…blah blah blah and this guy would go in and say"man…should we do something here…I’m down 100k, 200k ,300k…and “Oh…Spiff, We can’t let our emotions dictate our accts…the market always goes up” and then he never heard from his broker again…I got his acct back to 570…I put all but 100k into short term cd’s last year…( I wish I would have moved all of it…)…WHAT REAL VALUE DO YOU BRING TO THE TABLE SPIFFY…REAL VALUE…THAT YOUR CLIENTS CAN’T GET ON A WEBSITE??? Can I predict tops and bottoms, no but if I have any intelligence I can manage accts  along with emotions of my clients.  I bet the clients you sold A shares to back in OCT 07 are reallllll happy with you and your hold on comments…order taker. You’re correct, they’re not real happy, but I believe I can speak for most Jonesers in that we don’t invest in A shares for people with a 9 month time horizon. Mutual funds are designed to be held just a hair longer than that. Market timer.  

but gosh…didn’t you have any thoughts that maybe things were a little toppy…just a little…itsy bitsy bit…just a little…or were you so blind and wanting to make your freakin month…so you could brag about you net for the month.  Keep spewing the company line…as you clients are thinkin…talkin…wispering…or I shoudl have said customers…I bet you felt just a little nervous when you invested all that money in CIB…but  man you had to make your month…it will work out…the market always goes up.

but gosh…didn’t you have any thoughts that maybe things were a little toppy…just a little…itsy bitsy bit…just a little…or were you so blind and wanting to make your freakin month…so you could brag about you net for the month. Actually, I had no flippin’ idea that we were at the top. No clue whatsoever. Thankfully, I don’t get paid to predict the highs and lows. I get paid to construct a well-balanced portfolio and do my very best to keep my clients invested during the tough times.  Keep spewing the company line…as you clients are thinkin…talkin…wispering…or I shoudl have said customers…I bet you felt just a little nervous when you invested all that money in CIB…but  man you had to make your month…it will work out…the market always goes up.

Lets do a poll of your clients vs my clients…who’s satisfied…Ice…why do you assume the averages will be this low…If I take my clients out of the markets at 13500 and move back in…lets say…after we drop below 11 again…even if it was 13k when I took some out or 12500…or do I leave my clients accts alone and  ride my clients accts all the wayyyyy down…Borker you get paid to do what I could do online at Vanguard…don’t kid yourself…

Sounds like your clients are running your practice and your just pandering to their emotions to keep them happy.   Of course  I have to admit I chose my Doctor because he tells me I need to drink more beer, go out to eat more often and eliminate exercising from my routine.   He also says I don’t need a prostrate exam either, which is great I never did liked to be digitally examined.

[quote=bspears]Lets do a poll of your clients vs my clients…who’s satisfied… I’d bet your clients are probably happier at the moment because you’re doing something, i.e., taking action, which is what their emotions are telling them to do. However, if we did a survey in 1, 3, 5 years from now–which I believe is a reasonable time frame–and you continue with your market-timing philosophy, I know I’ll be the hands down winner. Ice…why do you assume the averages will be this low…If I take my clients out of the markets at 13500 and move back in…lets say…after we drop below 11 again…even if it was 13k when I took some out or 12500…or do I leave my clients accts alone and  ride my clients accts all the wayyyyy down…Borker you get paid to do what I could do online at Vanguard…don’t kid yourself…

Ahhh…the real question should be…who will get a referral…someone who road an acct down 20-30%…or lets do it this way.  I have an acct with Borker mother in law and she decides to help the kid with his business…gives him 100k…to put into an annuity(its a good annuity, because its from Jones).  3 months down the road, I’m having an adult conversation with mother in law and we decide we would like to capture some of her upside and move to a more fixed situation…“this subprime mess is getting ugly now…but the majority of the resets will happen in 08”…Meanwhile, back at the Ed Jones office… Borker is happy as a lark, making phone calls…just had a great month…everythings good, the markets up…I’m feelin good…then WAMMMMMM…the market starts stair stepping down and down and down…mother in law is comparing what has been done with her MAJOR money and looking at her minor money and is wondering what is up with Borker…And Borker is bad mouthing the Adult broker for moving money to safety…meanwhile his wife is trying to be supportive, he even pulls out the yearly returns and shows his mother in law…see here…2001-2002…this great mutual fund was down…but WAMMM in 2003 it was up 525%…and that is why we need to buy and forget…I mean hold.  But…he forgets to mention those are Jan-Dec numbers…he doesn’t even think to run the numbers from the date he actually invested the dollars…Then…a year down the road…adult advisor calls and says…hey I think we’re ready to tread back in.  It may be a little bumping going…but I think we’ve dodged the big drop in the market…Margaret…do you know anyone who I could send a card to…yes…I sure do…My daughter has an IRA and …

Ahhh…the real question should be…who will get a referral…someone who road an acct down 20-30%…or lets do it this way.  I have an acct with Borker mother in law and she decides to help the kid with his business…gives him 100k…to put into an annuity(its a good annuity, because its from Jones).  3 months down the road, I’m having an adult conversation with mother in law and we decide we would like to capture some of her upside and move to a more fixed situation…“this subprime mess is getting ugly now…but the majority of the resets will happen in 08”…Meanwhile, back at the Ed Jones office… Borker is happy as a lark, making phone calls…just had a great month…everythings good, the markets up…I’m feelin good…then WAMMMMMM…the market starts stair stepping down and down and down…mother in law is comparing what has been done with her MAJOR money and looking at her minor money and is wondering what is up with Borker…And Borker is bad mouthing the Adult broker for moving money to safety…meanwhile his wife is trying to be supportive, he even pulls out the yearly returns and shows his mother in law…see here…2001-2002…this great mutual fund was down…but WAMMM in 2003 it was up 525%…and that is why we need to buy and forget…I mean hold.  But…he forgets to mention those are Jan-Dec numbers…he doesn’t even think to run the numbers from the date he actually invested the dollars…Then…a year down the road…adult advisor calls and says…hey I think we’re ready to tread back in.  It may be a little bumping going…but I think we’ve dodged the big drop in the market… <----- And this is where your thinking, guessing, surmising, assuming, etc., kills your investor’s returns. So, you’ll get another referral and after a few years of your market-timing, they’ll have DIYer results minus your fees. This smacks of a Ponzi scheme, and I believe your business is what’s “stair stepping down and down and down…” Margaret…do you know anyone who I could send a card to…yes…I sure do…My daughter has an IRA and …

Borker, I'm going to lay off of you because it sounds like you've beat yourself up enough.  But, if you want to be in this field and you're going to manage people's assets, then do it. To the client, it doesn't matter what paper you can pull out or how many times you tell them to hold on....to me (and it sounds like only me) non action to a clients concern is worse than missing a few percentages from the bottom.

How can you say I’m killing an investors return?  I took people out in the 13’s and will move them back shortly.  Please explain this to me…I sold high and plan to get in lower than they were before…what am I missing.  Sell high, get in low…hmmm…IF YOU CAN’T THINK FOR YOURSELF, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Hell, even the accts I’ve received in the last 4-5 months have been put into CD’s and inflation protected bond funds…IF a DIYer gets his or his wifes money out in the 13’s and decided to put his money back in this month…well frankly he’s done a better job than you…and just think, he did it for free…

ICE, I ddin’t say I took them out at 14xxx and will put them exactly back in at the bottom.  I was just happy the market came back after last Augusts meltdown…so I coudl step back and look at what was on the horizon.  THats all, no more no less.  In this particular situation, yes I’ve tried timing the market…and have felt dam good about it.  THere were many, many people saying get to safety last fall, and probably just as many saying…ah…the subprime is very little of overall mortgages…as a matter of fact…I think LPL was on that side of the trade and still probably is…Once I think, yes think, the markets have calmed down and I can give a good reason as to why the markets will head higher, I will tread back in and continue on my normal course of asset allocation, until the next bubble.  Unfortunately, its not all EDJ’s.

ICE…if I remember correctly Goldman profited highly by the downturn.  I bet theres a tremendous amount of managers who predicted the pullback and allocated money.  I bet some of the very wealthy in this world saw this coming and were either advised or advised their people to make a change.  Whose the guy in Chicago who sold his reit empire at the top…luck I guess…right…Wealthy get wealthier and the poor get poorer…Maybe ICE, you should study whats going on around you in the world and markets.  So…what do you think will happen once the Olympics are over?   DO you guys read about your profession or are you just salespeople makin a livin or just payin the bills for now…I guess the people who shorted the market were wrong also…

Time Out On " The Extreme Kick Boxing "   Happens and it will happen again and again and again.

ICE, I disagree with you on the DIYer…maybe 10 years ago…but not now. THeres enough info on fidelitys, Kiplingers websites to develop an allocation model based on answering a few simple questions.  Lets face it…they can do the same thing on a website as the local advisor who was working at a used car dealership the year before.  I was in that category back in 2001 (not used cars)…but if you don’t bring something to the table other than allocating funds with bar charts and American Funds…whats the value.  IF your in this business today…with 30 other jokers in the same town calling on your mother in law…and can’t set yourself away from the pack…good luck because your clients become trading cards.  You get one of theres and they get one of yours…