[quote=Bamzor]Last time, it is the truth.  Answer this, have you sold a variable annuity under the pretence it is a fixed annuity?  The only reason I put it in the post is that this is the first time I have ever seen or ever heard of someone using it this way. [/quote]

Why would you argue about something like this? Go call Hartford and report back to us. There are NO fees on the fixed bucket. There was probably another reason that it didn't perform well and you were ignorant enough to give erroneous counsel to your client. That makes YOU a danger to others. You don't know as much as you think you know and you don't even know it.

And no...I've never tried to turn a VA into a Fixed annuity. In fact, I've only sold one fixed annuity in my life and it was at the client's insistence, against my advice. I did it anyway because I wanted the commission. Someone was going to get paid and it might as well have been me.

I am in the office. I did call Hartford, Bobby. I didn't blow up the other broker infront of the client either. You assume too much. I called Hartford as soon as I was broker of record. The individual I spoke with immediately understood what the broker had done, he said something to the extent, "This is not good...Hartford depends on the broker to represent the product for what it is." By the way if you have any hartford va's their fixed sub account went from 3.1 to 3% this month.

For your enjoyment below and  your quickness to call someone a liar.  Do the math below and see if it comes close to 3.1 or even 3. Now divide principle by value then by 4.5 years. 

<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />April 10, 2007 - Daily Information

Investment Choice
Abbreviation

Future
Contribution
Allocation

Rate/No. Units

Unit
Value

Investment Choice
Value

% of Contract
Value*

Fixed Acc - 3% Minimum

100

$129,645.99

100%

Total

$129,645.99

* Due to rounding totals may not equal 100%

Purchase Date:
September 3, 2002

Product Name:
<?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Hartford Leaders Outlook 1

Product Type:
IRA

Contract Status:
Inforce

< langauge="">  

March 30, 2007 - Monthly Information

Total Premium Payments

$116,568.39

Total Surrenders2

$0.00

Month-End Available Free Withdrawal Value2,3

$129,645.99

Month-End Surrender Value2,3

$129,645.99

The Hartford's Principal First:

Not Elected

Death Benefit Information

Death Benefit5

$129,645.99

Maximum Anniversary Value5

$127,903.26

Earnings Protection Benefit Value

Not Elected

Optional Death Benefit

Not Elected

Click on the links above for additional information about each value.

< langauge="">

<o:p> </o:p>

1 This information is written in connection with the promotion or marketing of the matter(s) addressed in this material. The information cannot be used or relied upon for the purpose of avoiding IRS penalties. These materials are not intended to provide tax, accounting or legal advice. As with all matters of a tax or legal nature, you should consult your own tax or legal counsel for advice.

2 Taxable distributions (and certain deemed distributions) are subject to ordinary income tax. Any distributions taken prior to age 59 1/2 may be subject to a 10% federal income tax penalty. For SIMPLE IRA plans, if the effective date of the plan is less than two years, you may be subject to a 25% federal income tax penalty if you are under age 59 1/2 instead of the 10% penalty. Hartford Life cannot provide tax advice and strongly recommends consulting with a tax advisor for any questions pertaining to distributions from retirement plans.

3 This amount is current as of March 30, 2007. Market and Surrender values change daily and certain contracts may require additional calculations which will be computed upon receipt of a written request.

4 A valid value is not available to display at this time.

5 This amount is current as of March 30, 2007. The actual values may differ and will be based on the decedent, age at death, and the highest anniversary value (adjusted for distributions/premium payments) attained prior to the earlier of the date of death or decedent's 81st or 85th Birthday (Please click on the link for specific contract details).

This quote is not equivalent to the final Death Benefit. The Death Benefit will be calculated on all contracts associated with this client the day we receive the certified death certificate. Once the Death Benefit is calculated, the benefit amount remains invested and is subject to market fluctuation until complete settlement instructions are received. Contractual and prospectus provisions will be the sole and final determinant of all Death Benefits.

Death Benefits may be subject to ordinary income tax.

6 This amount is current as of March 30, 2007. Any withdrawal request that exceeds the Benefit Payment/Lifetime Benefit Payment will cause your Benefit Amount and Benefit Payment/Lifetime Benefit Payment to reset.

There was probably another reason that it didn't perform well and you were ignorant enough to give erroneous counsel to your client. That makes YOU a danger to others. You don't know as much as you think you know and you don't even know it.

On this professional forum, and independent of the particular facts, the quickness to thoughtlessly cross the line in flaming or " humoring ", for that matter, brings to mind the whole Don Imus question.

Everywhere you look, you see the truth emerging.

Because, you are jumping up and down the levels of context and responsibility regarding our profession.

So, when you call someone a liar, or mock them for trying to be a financial advisor instead of a sales person, you inflict damage upon the professional consciousness of the entire forum.

You can't just bludgeon your way through around here.

Experience, education, ethics - these tend to engender respect.

[quote=Bamzor]

I am in the office. I did call Hartford, Bobby. I didn't blow up the other broker infront of the client either. You assume too much. I called Hartford as soon as I was broker of record. The individual I spoke with immediately understood what the broker had done, he said something to the extent, "This is not good...Hartford depends on the broker to represent the product for what it is." By the way if you have any hartford va's their fixed sub account went from 3.1 to 3% this month.

For your enjoyment below and  your quickness to call someone a liar.  Do the math below and see if it comes close to 3.1 or even 3. Now divide principle by value then by 4.5 years. 

<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />April 10, 2007 - Daily Information

Investment Choice
Abbreviation

Future
Contribution
Allocation

Rate/No. Units

Unit
Value

Investment Choice
Value

% of Contract
Value*

Fixed Acc - 3% Minimum

100

$129,645.99

100%

Total

$129,645.99

* Due to rounding totals may not equal 100%

Purchase Date:
September 3, 2002

Product Name:
<?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Hartford Leaders Outlook 1

Product Type:
IRA

Contract Status:
Inforce

< langauge="">  

March 30, 2007 - Monthly Information

Total Premium Payments

$116,568.39

Total Surrenders2

$0.00

Month-End Available Free Withdrawal Value2,3

$129,645.99

Month-End Surrender Value2,3

$129,645.99

The Hartford's Principal First:

Not Elected

Death Benefit Information

Death Benefit5

$129,645.99

Maximum Anniversary Value5

$127,903.26

Earnings Protection Benefit Value

Not Elected

Optional Death Benefit

Not Elected

Click on the links above for additional information about each value.

< langauge="">  

1 This information is written in connection with the promotion or marketing of the matter(s) addressed in this material. The information cannot be used or relied upon for the purpose of avoiding IRS penalties. These materials are not intended to provide tax, accounting or legal advice. As with all matters of a tax or legal nature, you should consult your own tax or legal counsel for advice.

2 Taxable distributions (and certain deemed distributions) are subject to ordinary income tax. Any distributions taken prior to age 59 1/2 may be subject to a 10% federal income tax penalty. For SIMPLE IRA plans, if the effective date of the plan is less than two years, you may be subject to a 25% federal income tax penalty if you are under age 59 1/2 instead of the 10% penalty. Hartford Life cannot provide tax advice and strongly recommends consulting with a tax advisor for any questions pertaining to distributions from retirement plans.

3 This amount is current as of March 30, 2007. Market and Surrender values change daily and certain contracts may require additional calculations which will be computed upon receipt of a written request.

4 A valid value is not available to display at this time.

5 This amount is current as of March 30, 2007. The actual values may differ and will be based on the decedent, age at death, and the highest anniversary value (adjusted for distributions/premium payments) attained prior to the earlier of the date of death or decedent's 81st or 85th Birthday (Please click on the link for specific contract details).

This quote is not equivalent to the final Death Benefit. The Death Benefit will be calculated on all contracts associated with this client the day we receive the certified death certificate. Once the Death Benefit is calculated, the benefit amount remains invested and is subject to market fluctuation until complete settlement instructions are received. Contractual and prospectus provisions will be the sole and final determinant of all Death Benefits.

Death Benefits may be subject to ordinary income tax.

6 This amount is current as of March 30, 2007. Any withdrawal request that exceeds the Benefit Payment/Lifetime Benefit Payment will cause your Benefit Amount and Benefit Payment/Lifetime Benefit Payment to reset.

[/quote]

I'll take back the liar part. When I back out the 4%  bonus, I get an average of 3.15%/year. What do you get when you back it out?

Nice try, Bobby.

[quote=silouette]

There was probably another reason that it didn't perform well and you were ignorant enough to give erroneous counsel to your client. That makes YOU a danger to others. You don't know as much as you think you know and you don't even know it.

On this professional forum, and independent of the particular facts, the quickness to thoughtlessly cross the line in flaming or " humoring ", for that matter, brings to mind the whole Don Imus question.

Everywhere you look, you see the truth emerging.

Because, you are jumping up and down the levels of context and responsibility regarding our profession.

So, when you call someone a liar, or mock them for trying to be a financial advisor instead of a sales person, you inflict damage upon the professional consciousness of the entire forum.

You can't just bludgeon your way through around here.

Experience, education, ethics - these tend to engender respect.

[/quote]

Just to be helpful, here is some information:

On a 0-100 scale...

Your estimate of my level of interest in your respect for me = 100

My actual level of interest = 0

It's quite a variance, don't you think?

Just improve your behaviour or go away and your clever attacks will become meaningless … otherwise, they do matter here, whether you know what you know, or don’t know, or think you know… why do you try so hard to be someone it appears you are not?

[quote=silouette]Just improve your behaviour or go away and your clever attacks will become meaningless ... otherwise, they do matter here, whether you know what you know, or don't know, or think you know... why do you try so hard to be someone it appears you are not?[/quote]

Silouette, this is a forum where everone's opinion is just as valid as yours and mine, until proven wrong.  Frankly, I think it's a good thing when others challenge 'what I know'; it forces me to continually re-evaluate what I (and others) 'know' what is best for my clients. 

Why do you fear it?

Ideas don't scare me.

Just for the record, I am at least open-minded about annuities and always want to learn something new.

In the context of a discussion about annuities, in addition to calling another professional a liar, this is the kind of badgering and verbally abuse crap here that needs to exposed, in my opinion:

When you fail out of this business, remember that it was because you saw yourself as an "advisor" and not a salesman.

[quote=silouette]

Ideas don't scare me.

Just for the record, I am at least open-minded about annuities and always want to learn something new.

In the context of a discussion about annuities, in addition to calling another professional a liar, this is the kind of badgering and verbally abuse crap here that needs to exposed, in my opinion:

When you fail out of this business, remember that it was because you saw yourself as an "advisor" and not a salesman.

[/quote]

If it makes you feel any better, I just sold a $100,000 VA. Sometimes I wonder if I could just attach a note to a dog and have him sell these things. It's just that easy!

[quote=silouette]

Ideas don't scare me.

Just for the record, I am at least open-minded about annuities and always want to learn something new.

In the context of a discussion about annuities, in addition to calling another professional a liar, this is the kind of badgering and verbally abuse crap here that needs to exposed, in my opinion:

When you fail out of this business, remember that it was because you saw yourself as an "advisor" and not a salesman.

[/quote]

If you're not a liar, what do you care?  It doesn't matter what people call you.  What matters is what you answer to.

If it makes you feel any better, I just sold a $100,000 VA. Sometimes I wonder if I could just attach a note to a dog and have him sell these things. It's just that easy!

That is ironic, because I had a guy call me up today and set an appointment for tomorrow. His  $130,000 ten year annuity is maturing, and he wants to roll it over to a new one in his IRA, because he is getting screwed on the fixed interest rate.

We talked about alternatives, found out had has owned securities in the past and felt comfortable and had success, and guess what, I could slam him into another fixed annuity or I could show him some real options.

Not saying I am right and you are wrong, but I do find your comment about a dog just a little patronizing.

One thing about life and working in this business, it is not entirely impossible that there is some kind of connection between apparently unrelated events.

If you're not a liar, what do you care?  It doesn't matter what people call you.  What matters is what you answer to.

http://powerpresentations.blogs.com/my_weblog/2006/05/when_d id_you_st.html

So, have you stopped beating your wife?

I guess what I'm saying is, some of Bobby's comments make me feel cheap and dirty, just logging into the forum. For myself, I'd rather choose that feeling, like staying up too late and having extra drinks and smoking a cigar.

If there were not so many smart, thoughtful people here, I probably wouldn't care.

Maybe he could get his needs met somewhere else. There must be some forum where people like to talk sales, and beat on each other, in a what many folks would consider, dysfunctional sort of way.

Why are you so interested in defending Bobby's right to bully along with his right to express his "professional" ideas? 

[quote=silouette]

Ideas don’t scare me.

Just for the record, I am at least open-minded about annuities and always want to learn something new.

In the context of a discussion about annuities, in addition to calling another professional a liar, this is the kind of badgering and verbally abuse crap here that needs to exposed, in my opinion:

When you fail out of this business, remember that it was because you saw yourself as an "advisor" and not a salesman.

[quote=silouette]

If you're not a liar, what do you care?  It doesn't matter what people call you.  What matters is what you answer to.

http://powerpresentations.blogs.com/my_weblog/2006/05/when_d id_you_st.html

So, have you stopped beating your wife?

I guess what I'm saying is, some of Bobby's comments make me feel cheap and dirty, just logging into the forum. For myself, I'd rather choose that feeling, like staying up too late and having extra drinks and smoking a cigar.

If there were not so many smart, thoughtful people here, I probably wouldn't care.

Maybe he could get his needs met somewhere else. There must be some forum where people like to talk sales, and beat on each other, in a what many folks would consider, dysfunctional sort of way.

Why are you so interested in defending Bobby's right to bully along with his right to express his "professional" ideas? 

[/quote]

What's $100,000 * .0825 * .9? That's what the dog with the note on his back made me today.

Admittedly, I was surprised at Starka's and Joe's comments. You guys may have the most posts under you, so you know the "rules."  I am intrigued by Sil's discussion's and my thought patterns tend to follow his over those that are as Joe stated, "obnoxious."  Bobby's use of annuities, I have in the past found it humorously scary. He called me a liar and according to Starka, "What matters is what you answer to."  Did this come from  Mr Miyagi in the Karate Kid?  I sort of get it. To me there is a difference in come on, give us the truth. Than to I don't believe you, you are a liar! 

See we have a "fair and balanced" pairing. Bobby will continue to blast away in his, "I give Zero percent about you" pissed off ex-wife attitude. Mean while we have Sil's thought provoking commentary which strives for the posts to be more educational and meaningful.

[quote=Bamzor]

Admittedly, I was surprised at Starka's and Joe's comments. You guys may have the most posts under you, so you know the "rules."  I am intrigued by Sil's discussion's and my thought patterns tend to follow his over those that are as Joe stated, "obnoxious."  Bobby's use of annuities, I have in the past found it humorously scary. He called me a liar and according to Starka, "What matters is what you answer to."  Did this come from  Mr Miyagi in the Karate Kid?  I sort of get it. To me there is a difference in come on, give us the truth. Than to I don't believe you, you are a liar! 

See we have a "fair and balanced" pairing. Bobby will continue to blast away in his, "I give Zero percent about you" pissed off ex-wife attitude. Mean while we have Sil's thought provoking commentary which strives for the posts to be more educational and meaningful.

[/quote]

Sooooo....what did you get when you backed out the bonus?

Looks to me like you're leading a one-man lynch mob.  Good luck with that.

 Wow man, jumping in here with your profound insights regarding the topic.

I think I'm starting to get it.

According to the lexicon of Joe, here is the definition of a one man lynch mob: one who challenges the bullying behaviour of certain forum members.

" Some times I even find Bobby thought provoking when I can get past the sturm and drang."

And what makes you feel like you need to defend Bobby, since you brought up the lynch mob metaphor?

Did you know it is really sturm und drang?

So, basically, you feel Bobby's storm and impulse routine is just cute.

After you backed off on the dropping soap in the shower stuff, it looked like there might be some hope. I don't really care, have your little fun, anyway, you just might consider that sometimes others might feel it is demeaning. 

Feel free to take some more shots here, or go back and quote me where I was off base. I'm done with this topic.   

You guys may have the most posts under you, so you know the "rules." 

Bam, looks like you are the smartest one here, since you recognize that of course, this is really a discussion about culture. It does begin to become clear how certain members of the tribe strive to isolate "inappropriate" behaviour. Wonder who will be voted off the island ( not that I really care  ).

[quote=Bobby Hull]

Sooooo....what did you get when you backed out the bonus?

[/quote]

Bobby there was no bonus. The broker sold the dca feature as a Bonus. I am drinking Crown now, but it was dca @ 9% for 6 months into the fixed sub account at 3.1 it stayed in the fixed sub-account the whole time. I can copy the history if I must. As stated earlier it changed to 3% last month. This happen 4.5 years ago. It has been in the fixed account the whole time. No withdraws the client puts in $116,568, 4.5 years later it is worth $129,645. 116568 / 129645 = .8999 or 10.1%  total return for 4.5 years. This equates at best to 2.3 avg rate of return at best. Call Hartford there are underlining expenses or it would have averaged 3.1%.