The really scary stuff
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[quote=Ron 14]
Lock - How am I placing a value on one life over another ? I am donating the same as a ratio of lives lost. [/quote] By definition when dealing with a limited resource, you must make a value decision. Even giving proportionately by way of the extent of the tragedy remains a value decision. I don't know how more plainly I can put it than that. That said, this is my last post on the issue. I'll side with Morean's last post. Perhaps I can find another juicy BAB to sell ...[quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14]
Lock - How am I placing a value on one life over another ? I am donating the same as a ratio of lives lost. [/quote] By definition when dealing with a limited resource, you must make a value decision. Even giving proportionately by way of the extent of the tragedy remains a value decision. I don't know how more plainly I can put it than that. That said, this is my last post on the issue. I'll side with Morean's last post. Perhaps I can find another juicy BAB to sell ...[/quote] This is true. That's why I give all my money to the girls over at the local Gentelman's club. I feel really, REALLY bad for them.Let me get this straight:
The Obama administration continues to bash the Bush administration for Katrina, yet is reaching out to George W. Bush to go to Haiti?!?! WTF?!
Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help. [/quote]That's a little shocking. But then again, one of the focuses of our particular Rotary group is Haitian education.
LOL - They probably will find a way to blame this on W. The guy spends all kinds of money on Katrina trying to give the locals work, but they want the National Guard to do everything for them.
If I were him, I'd give Obama a big finger and say, "I'm done with this sh!t. You deal with it!".
“The president believed that the partnership that President George W. Bush created between his dad and former President Clinton was obviously a highly effective way of ensuring that after this phase of the operation … obviously there is still going to be a tremendous need, and there will probably be a tremendous need for many, many months to come – that that’s the best vehicle and the most effective vehicle for setting that up,” Gibbs said.
"President Obama will keep the broken promises to rebuild New Orleans and the Gulf Coast," the White House Web site says to this day in a brief section on Katrina. Politicians, including the current administration and f***ing a$$holes. Robert Gibbs is just as much of a clown as the people that he's speaking on behalf of.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help. [/quote] I was kind of hoping that U.S. government aid to Haiti this week would increase the ROI on my paid 2009 estimated taxes.[quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14]
The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is when 3,000 people Americans die on 9/11 and 3,000 people Americans die on Katrina , American's were opening their wallets to help. 100k plus are probably dead from this and I am willing to bet the donations will be less. Makes me sick. [/quote] Fixed.[/quote] By replacing people with Americans you are placing the value of an American above those from other countries. There would be no other reason for your reply in that way. I don't know how I can explain your own words to you any better. Your "fixed" statement says it is more important for American's to send aid after a tragedy that killed 3,000 Americans than to send aid after a tragedy that killed 100,000 Haitian's. I am still waiting for your argument regarding Katrina devastating more people than this earthquake.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help. [/quote] This is my entire point.WSJ home page says Americans, through the federal government, will be providing $100 million of (borrowed) money to help. Maybe they should put more money on their credit cards.
We should at least pray (seriously) for the dead and suffering, and for the efficient administration of 100m. As in, "please minimize corruption associated with aid". If you want to moralize or rail against others for not taking human misery seriously, don't stop at the border of your own mind.[quote=SometimesNowhere][quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14]
Lock - How am I placing a value on one life over another ? I am donating the same as a ratio of lives lost. [/quote] By definition when dealing with a limited resource, you must make a value decision. Even giving proportionately by way of the extent of the tragedy remains a value decision. I don't know how more plainly I can put it than that. That said, this is my last post on the issue. I'll side with Morean's last post. Perhaps I can find another juicy BAB to sell ...[/quote] This is true. That's why I give all my money to the girls over at the local Gentelman's club. I feel really, REALLY bad for them.[/quote] I like to support single mothers as well.[quote=mlgone]I don’t know if prior posters believe in his comments or follow him but to me Pat Robertson is a PYSCHO. This stuff is scary
Haiti, the devil and Pat RobertsonBy David Waters
Pat Robertson is at it again. The purported Christian minister who suggested assassinating Venezuela leader Hugo Chavez and nuking the U.S. State Department, the reputed follower of Jesus who blamed the 9/11 terrorist attacks and Hurricane Katrina on pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians, is now attributing the Haitian earthquake to Haiti's "pact to the devil."
"Something happened a long time ago in Haiti and people might not want to talk about," Robertson said Tuesday on his 700 Club show. "They were under the heel of the French, you know Napoleon the third and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said 'We will serve you if you will get us free from the prince.' True story. And so the devil said, 'Ok it's a deal.' And they kicked the French out. The Haitians revolted and got something themselves free. But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after another."
One can only assume that Robertson is alluding to the fact that a majority of Haitians believe in and practice some forms of voodoo. Perhaps he's also referring to the fact that Roman Catholicism is the official religion of Haiti. It's also possible Robertson doesn't know what he's talking about.
Michael Lindsay, a Rice University sociologist and author of the book "Faith in the Halls of Power: How Evangelicals Joined the American Elite," suggests that Robertson does indeed know what he's talking about, and why: "Pat Robertson continues to distinguish himself as American evangelicalism's most flamboyant spokesperson. When tragedies strike, people naturally ask questions about why bad things happen to the innocent, and millions of Americans see the hand of God or the devil at work in natural calamities," Lindsay said. "But few religious leaders today draw the kinds of explicit connection as Pat Robertson has done with the Haitian earthquake. Robertson's comments reflect as much his rhetorical flourish and skill as a ratings booster as they do his theology."
Years ago I wrote a column saying that we should pay attention to the crazy things Robertson says because his thinking reflects the thinking of millions of fundamentalist Christians, many of whom support his multi-million-dollar "Christian" media empire and the political views he espouses. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the time has come to stop paying attention to Pat Robertson. Surely the time has come for Robertson to stop making such shameful comments. Considering the massive death, destruction and misery in Haiti, it is shameful for anyone -- but especially a so-called minister of the gospel -- to suggest that God or the poor people of Haiti had anything to do with it.
Do you agree?
[/quote] For sure, from an ontological point of view, all we can say for certainty is, " it's a mystery". The possibility exists. Spend a few hours with the Old Testament before making up your mind.Robertson’s comments reflect as much his rhetorical flourish and skill as a ratings booster as they do his theology."
Obviously, anyone who tries to profit from this crisis is messed up. Who speaks for Pat Robertson? He speaks for himself. Do you really know his motive? Is God real? If you had to go to prison for ten years, and could only take one book, would that book be the Bible? If it was, and if you did, would you answer for certainty that the God of the Old Testament could not or would not wreak havoc on any people, like he punished to Jews? Now consider that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all share and revere the Old Testament. The logic goes, either you put yourself in a group of people who are open to God, and the Bible (as our prehistory, much of it written down from the oral prehistory of storytellers) - or you are in the group that negates all of that. If you are in the former group, some things are better left unsaid. We live in interesting times. If at some point, a vague or explicit realization hits you, that comes, not from your own logic, it may be that God is talking to you. It happens. As for Haiti, who are we to say? My understanding of Judaism and Christianity is that God has punished people who know better. Sound familiar? Why do agnostics attack that point with cynicism? Nip it in the bud. These days, folks are searching in new ways. As for real change, I think the last election shows it's not "out there". It begins with a few people, in the now. Interesting what feeling comes out of a few people in a small place talking about real stuff. Some agnostic now can make some comment and dispel the feeling, but it was here. If you're fully human, you have to at least entertain all possibilities, including the possibility that the Haitans are merely random victims of nature. But in the context of ontological history, even the opportunity to put ten bucks on your charge card to help the Haitans may be an opportunity (blessing) to make yourself a better person. It may have nothing to do with your ten bucks helping to pay for digging a rotting corpse out of the rubble. We don't know for sure. But be vigilant of people who would short circuit your thinking and feelings on the matter. Or speak on behalf of others, in this case, use Pat Robertson as a penny in the fuse box.[quote=Ron 14]By replacing people with Americans you are placing the value of an American above those from other countries.[/quote]
Yep. As I stated multiple times and you've failed to address, by using a limited resource a value decision of some sort must be made. I don't argue that I've made a value decision. You fail to see that you've made one as well. That's too bad. [quote=Ron 14]I am still waiting for your argument regarding Katrina devastating more people than this earthquake. [/quote] Apparently I overstated the equivilant population of NOLA; I also thought I had seen that P-a-P population was at 800K. However, I did say "Katrina devastated a far, far larger population than the tragedy in Haiti" ... and I think I can stand by this, when considering the entire coastal population of the the Gulf states. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The destruction of Katrina cost the US an estimated 100 to 150 billion dollars. The GDC of Haiti is 7 Billion. In other terms, if you gave each and every resident of Port au Prince $10000 - which is approximately 37 years worth of income - you would have an equivilant economic disaster. If the WSJ suggests the Americans alone are sending $100,000,000 ... I think we have a pretty good response in order. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I’m not sure what the exchange rate is for the dollar to Haiti (or even what currency they use), but I’m quite certain that $100MM will go considerably farther in Haiti than it will in NYC. Heck, that may be more than their GDP for all I know.
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Okay, I did some research. GDP according to wikipedia is $11B. More interesting to me is that the IMF, the World Bank and of course the good ol’ USA forgave Haiti just last year of $1.2 Billion in outstanding debt and we the taxpayer were kind enough to kick in $20 Million to pay the interest on their debt until they settled up. I have compassion and sympathy for the Haitian people, but why in the heck is this the US taxpayers responsiblity?
I don’t know if prior posters believe in his comments or follow him but to me Pat Robertson is a PYSCHO. This stuff is scary
Haiti, the devil and Pat RobertsonBy David Waters
You know what is scary to me? When your average mortal states things with unequivocal certainty.
We live in an age of "facts". Remember the clarity and transparency that Obama was going to bring to the political process? What we have now is corruption, everywhere. And yet we have folks clinging to that corruption, defending the status quo, even being cynical - not about the absolute fact of an earthquake - but about another human's interpretation of that fact. Meanwhile, we have the absolute fact of the corruption of government and big business. I wonder if we are getting further off track, as humans. I wonder if logic will be used - up to the bitter end - to deny the potential - the more open minded possibility - that human consciousness is not the greatest consciousness, and that the purpose of human consciousness is greater than eating, sleeping, and multiplying. Celebrate your humanity, but beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Who are you to judge anyone? Even with your logic, if you ever elevate your mind to eight miles high, that patterns that you see may be very different than the view from here.You guys are right. Let them all crawl out by themselves. Why should we even waste $100 million to help out? That $100 million could go towards the college educations of all the kids who had a parent die on 9/11 or during Katrina. I donated during 9/11 and Katrina, but these people aren’t worth it. They aren’t Americans and Obama is sending money anyways. Off to Starbucks I go…
I really don’t think there’s gonna be an issue with getting people to contribute money. Facebook, Twitter, etc. is pushing the Haiti thing, and now this:
http://views.washingtonpost.com/theleague/nflnewsfeed/2010/01/nfl-to-promote-relief-efforts-in-haiti.html?referrer=emaillink[quote=Milyunair]WSJ home page says Americans, through the federal government, will be providing $100 million of (borrowed) money to help. Maybe they should put more money on their credit cards.
We should at least pray (seriously) for the dead and suffering, and for the efficient administration of 100m. As in, "please minimize corruption associated with aid". If you want to moralize or rail against others for not taking human misery seriously, don't stop at the border of your own mind. [/quote] Focus your prayers on the living. Let the dead take care of themselves.