Victory!
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[quote=mranonymous2u]Indy, guy, that’s like the very first thing people say.
Mr. A[/quote]
Gee...I can't imagine why...
I still get agnostic and gnostic confused sometimes...
[quote=mikebutler222][quote=dude]
How is a democracy supposed to work in Iraq Mike? Lay it out for me, I'm really interested.
[/quote]
If the example of Turkey doesn't do it for you, just what do you need? Hasn't it already been proven that your monarchy versus democracy meme is fictional? The fight is between Islamists who want to establish a Taliban like Shira law gov't and those who favor pluralism.
It would be nice if it broken down along sectarian lines, but there are radicals on both sides.
[/quote]
Mike......Turkey is not Iraq. I'm not going to comment on Turkey since I'm not familiar with their history. I am speaking from a seminar I attended with people who are from the area and could speak from the citizen point of view (not the foreign occupying army POV) as to the nature of the conflict.
Mike, you made my point for me when you said that IRAN is a democracy in NAME ONLY....IRAN is predominantly SHIA, just like Iraq. By upsetting the power balance in Iraq, we took a big risk of creating another Iran.
Sounds like VICTORY to me!
[quote=mikebutler222][quote=dude]
How is a democracy supposed to work in Iraq Mike? Lay it out for me,
I’m really interested.
[/quote]
If the example of Turkey doesn’t do it for you, just what do you need?
Hasn’t it already been proven that your monarchy versus democracy
meme is fictional? The fight is between Islamists who want to
establish a Taliban like Shira law gov’t and those who favor pluralism.
It would be nice if it broken down along sectarian lines, but there are
radicals on both sides.
[/quote]
http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey
Muslims in Turkey are dominantly Sunnis.<A class=“external
autonumber” title=https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/
tu.html href=“https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/
tu.html”>[1]. Religious observance in comparison to other
predominantly Muslim-populated countries is low and
[COLOR=#cc0000]Muslim identity tends to be based more on tradition
and cultural heritage rather than actual belief in religious dogma.[/
COLOR] The Turkish governmental system are based on European
republican state with strong flavour of secularism. While attempting to
reform in order to strengthen bonds with European Union in hopes of
future accession.
Sorry about the harsh insult…I’m just tiring of the uniformed leading the blind. Have fun fighting for FREEDOM in Iraq!
Mike,
Whether you WANT to see it or not....the Sunni's are our best hope for Democracy in the muslim world, not the Shia. I don't know how we achieve our mission of democracy by unseating the Sunni's and installing the Shia's.
This is the foundation of my paradigm concerning Iraq and the muslim world in general.
[quote=dude][quote=mikebutler222][quote=dude] <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
To simplify for all:
This is a civil war about Monarcy vs Democracy.[/quote]
To simplify for dude, the Sunnis are the ones fighting to end the budding Shia/Sunni democracy and install the theocracy which would include the establishment of Shira law.
The Iranian Sunnis (should read SHIA, which is the religion of Iran)are assisting in that, and <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Iran itself is a democracy in name only since the mullahs get to select candidates. Of course this all ignores the AQ connection, which is a Sunni group and has no interest in democracy.
So much for the monarchy vs democracy theory.
It's all about knowing the facts.
[/quote]
HAHAHHAHAHAHA! Iraq is Shia bro! You got it ass backwards! [/quote]
Perhaps you could point out where I said Iraq WASN'T predominantly Shia? Saddam, otoh, was from the Sunni 20% of the population.
A good bit of the sectarian violence comes from Sunnis who enjoyed great power and favor when one of their own, Saddam, ran the country. OTOH, you also have players like Shia Al-Sader’s militia causing a great deal of violence.
[quote=dude]The Sunnis are fighting to prevent a IRAN like DEMOCRACY,…[/quote]
Uh, sorry, dude, but Iran IS Shia AND they’re assisting Sunnis “insurgents” in Iraq. There goes your monarchy vs democracy theory.
BTW, Saudi Arabia, of monarchy fame, Sunni.
Now, your theory again?
[quote=dude][quote=mikebutler222][quote=dude]
How is a democracy supposed to work in Iraq Mike? Lay it out for me, I'm really interested.
[/quote]
If the example of Turkey doesn't do it for you, just what do you need? Hasn't it already been proven that your monarchy versus democracy meme is fictional? The fight is between Islamists who want to establish a Taliban like Shira law gov't and those who favor pluralism.
It would be nice if it broken down along sectarian lines, but there are radicals on both sides.
[/quote]
Mike......Turkey is not Iraq. I'm not going to comment on Turkey since I'm not familiar with their history. [/quote]
Perhaps you should be before you begin to pontificate that Sunnis and Shia can't live together in a democracy, since that's exactly what Turkey is.
[quote=dude] I am speaking from a seminar I attended..[/quote]
Oh, well, that changes everything, obviously....
[quote=dude][Mike, you made my point for me when you said that IRAN is a democracy in NAME ONLY....IRAN is predominantly SHIA, just like Iraq. By upsetting the power balance in Iraq, we took a big risk of creating another Iran.
Sounds like VICTORY to me!
[/quote]
The Taliban, the prototype Islamicfacsist state, is Sunni.
If only it was as simple as you seem to believe and all the nutcases in Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan were just one sect.
[quote=dude]Sorry about the harsh insult....I'm just tiring of the uniformed leading the blind. Have fun fighting for FREEDOM in Iraq![/quote]
"Uniformed"????
Look, dude, Sunnia AND Shia live in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Turkey and it's a democracy.
Saudi Arabia, which has a monarchy is SUNNI as was the TALIBAN. Iran, which has the mullahs running the show is Shia, Iraq, which was a dictatorship run by a SUNNI is predominately SHIA.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Obviously there’s no clear “this side is for a monarchy” and “this side supports a democracy” divide, no matter how you wish otherwise.
[quote=dude][quote=mikebutler222][quote=dude]
How is a democracy supposed to work in Iraq Mike? Lay it out for me,
I’m really interested.
[/quote]
If the example of Turkey doesn’t do it for you, just what do you need?
Hasn’t it already been proven that your monarchy versus democracy
meme is fictional? The fight is between Islamists who want to
establish a Taliban like Shira law gov’t and those who favor pluralism.
It would be nice if it broken down along sectarian lines, but there are
radicals on both sides.
[/quote]
http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey
Muslims in Turkey are dominantly Sunnis.<A class=“external
autonumber” title=https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/
tu.html href=“https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/
tu.html”>[1]. Religious observance in comparison to other
predominantly Muslim-populated countries is low and
[COLOR=#cc0000]Muslim identity tends to be based more on tradition
and cultural heritage rather than actual belief in religious dogma.[/
COLOR] The Turkish governmental system are based on European
republican state with strong flavour of secularism. While attempting to
reform in order to strengthen bonds with European Union in hopes of
future accession.
[/quote]
Your outburst aside, what part of the differs from what I said? Shias
and Sunnis in a democracy. BTW, Saudia Arabia is ALSO mostly Sunni and
it’s a monarcy.
Mike B said: BTW, <?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 />Saudi Arabia, of monarchy fame, Sunni.<?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />
Now, your theory again?
______________________
We're talking from a religious POV Mike.
[quote=dude]
Mike,
Whether you WANT to see it or not....the Sunni's are our best hope for Democracy in the muslim world, not the Shia. [/quote]
Sunnis, eh? The sect of the Saudis and the Taliban?
Sorry, your entire monarcy/democracy theory is hogwash. There's not a breakdown on the line of the sects on that issue, both sides have anti-democratic fundimentalists within their ranks.
[quote=dude]
This is the foundation of my paradigm concerning Iraq and the muslim world in general.
[/quote]
And it's 100% wrong.
[quote=dude]
And to be clear:
Turkey works because it is mostly Sunni, got it?
[/quote]
Sorry, dude, but the Taliban and SA are both mostly Sunni too.
Your entire "Sunnis favor democracy" is hogwash.
I’m speaking primarily about the Iraqi Sunni’s here MikeB…they are a very moderate and forward looking ‘version’ who in many ways embraced western ideologies (relatively speaking). I’m done with your spin Mike, I’m getting dizzy.
[quote=dude]
Mike B said: BTW, <?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 />Saudi Arabia, of monarchy fame, Sunni.<?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />
Now, your theory again?
______________________
We're talking from a religious POV Mike.
[/quote]
Huh? SA is SUNNI, a monarchy and lives under Shira law.
Again, the "Sunnis favor democracy" line is fiction.
Mike....Iraqi Sunnis favor democracy.
Democratic concepts are more in line with Sunni ideology since they believe their leaders should be elected from the people.
Fascist concepts are more in line with Shia ideology since they believe that their leaders should come from the 'royal' (for lack of a better word) bloodlines which are 'divinely' choosen.
You are simplifying my position mike...it's not that simple. I'm wasting my fingers here.
[quote=dude]I'm speaking primarily about the Iraqi Sunni's here MikeB.....they are a very moderate and forward looking 'version' who in many ways embraced western ideologies (relatively speaking). I'm done with your spin Mike, I'm getting dizzy.[/quote]
The "moderate and forward looking" supporters of a dictator? The ones getting support from Shia Iran in their fight against the fledgling democracy?
The Sunnis are fighting because (in no particular order) they fear what might happen with Shias in charge after what Sunni Saddam did, some want to install a Taliban style goverment (also Sunni) which is why some many insuregent factions have adopted Jihadist themes and names.
Iran supports the Shia not the Sunnis Mike....you don't understand this at all.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5108496.stm