[quote=BigCheese]

HKA-

  Until you have worked for another firm, its all conjecture. You hope, assume, pray, I don't care what you want to call it, that the firm you are with is the best for you. If you couch it at the time, I can understand and even appreciate your point.   What I have been trying to get across for a long time is that when you have stepped outside the Jones culture/company, it is then that you can be impartial. You can truly assess whether the firm is appropriate for you long term. Hearing from a former top producer at Jones and now out 6 years with Ray Jay is giving a perspective that all of you ought to at the very least take into consideration.   In 1997 when I was hired by Jones I truly felt it was the last firm for me. 9 years later I left. It wasn't instantaneous, but over time I realized it wasn't the firm that I could see myelf retiring from. And now looking back after 3 complete years since, I am reminded with messages like Zacko earlier, that the path that I took like many others, was the best for me.   Again I will say this about Jones. A great place to learn the business.[/quote]   "when you have stepped outside the Jones culture/company, it is then that you can be impartial."   Please sell me on how this makes you impartial.  A new and additional perspective I will buy.  Impartial?  I think you are selling your usual bucket of crap.  I am not buying any but you might be able to sell some of it here.

[quote=BigCheese] HKA-

I have to wonder how anyone could contend that the firm they work for is the only for him, if they have nothing to compare. Seems fairly obvious to me and probably others that its virutally impossible to be impartial with such a limited view of the overall marketplace.[/quote]

Cheese, do you believe in god? I hope not, because you couldn’t possibly believe that god is the best thing for you, unless you’ve been a satanist.

Thank you for the kind words and it's nice to see a few familiar "faces" as well.  It also seems the more things change, the more they stay the same...or something like that.  I don't know how long I will stay--but I will share the following.

In retrospect, I really have no ill feelings towards Jones.  I probably SHOULD for the way they take advantage of the uneducated financial advisor, and pretend to be something that they are indeed far from.   Underneath the cultism of my decade long career at Jones I was provided some fine training, and in some ways I am appreciative of the time I spent there.  I made some friends, many of whom are now indy, that I still stay in touch with today.   Jones was very well paid for reveune I was able to generate.  Over my career, when you throw in revenue sharing, years with little or no bonus (I was doing between 650-750k at the time) and the office overhead I was sharing in the cost of--Jones took home close to 50% more money that I did.  That's not close to being fair.  I had heard of a few friends going independent, but naturally I was skeptical at first.  My skeptisim proved to be totally unfounded.   In fact, the debate of Jones vs Indy should have died a long time ago.  There should be no argument from anyone (except a newish IR--oh wait you are called FA's now)((just like RJFS)) that Jones is better.  Now, if your a two or three year FA with 15 million or even 20 million under management, there is no financial advantage to leaving.  At 30 million and up, the financial advantage really starts to show.  Quite frankly it's simple math that anyone on this board can do.  So beyond payout--what else is there?  Payout is more than enough for many of us...but look past it for just a moment.   What about technology? Research? Many more products? A true ability to manage a fee based practice? Owning your own business with a sucession plan?  Has Jones addressed this? Being truly independent with no requirement to attend meetings or expectations to train your competition? Tax advantages?  They are H U G E.  Too many to name.  And don't tell me "paybills" or some equivalent is just as good.  It's not even close.   How many of you at Jones are paying AMT?    Funny that RJFS started deferred comp a year or two ago.  RJFS put more in my deferred comp than Jones did in my profit sharing..lol.   As a top producer, I also get trips.  And while they are better than the Jones trips with no mandatory meeting--I do also have to pay taxes on them.  Call that a wash and I think I'm being generous.   I honestly think most Jones FA's (still want to say IR's) are smart people.  I think they fall into two camps.   Camp 1:  The fearful.  They know it's "probably" better but they are comfortable and afraid of making the jump.  Maybe a point in time will come when they get pissed off at something that happens at Jones, then will they do it.  But for the most part, fear holds them back.   Camp 2:  The kool aid chugger.  Ya you know the type.  They are smart, organized, and do whatever Jones tells them as they believe it to be absolute gospel.  They feel they owe Jones for the fantastic opportunity they have been given.  They refuse to believe the fact that you make more money as an indy.  They think everything at Jones is the best, yet they have no other benchmark whatsoever to compare it to.    There you have it!     ZACKO

Y-

  Check out item 2 of Zacko's comments. That's impartiality talking. Someone who has done it much longer than you, Spiff, B24 et.al., and gone somewhere else.   I know best firm for you now, I get it (how was the B pretty nice wasn't I)...

Which one is item 2?  Are you talking about the research comment or the compensation comment? 

Just FYI - you can't claim impartiality if you are on one of the sides being discussed.  You can't say that Zacko is impartially arguing that RJFS is better than Jones.  That's like playing a basketball game and letting a player from off the bench of one of the teams be the referee.  So, stop saying he's impartial.  You just don't sound all that smart when you say it. 

Camp 2:  The kool aid chugger.  Ya you know the type.  They are smart, organized, and do whatever Jones tells them as they believe it to be absolute gospel.  They feel they owe Jones for the fantastic opportunity they have been given.  They refuse to believe the fact that you make more money as an indy.  They think everything at Jones is the best, yet they have no other benchmark whatsoever to compare it to.

  Zacko may be able to say this better than I.

Zacks-

  Your question about AMT isn't on their radar yet. After several years (I will generalize) most are barely north of 100K gross and they are relatively new in the biz.   Now before Spiff goes off on me again, I don't know his biz and I don't know him, and I know he doesn't see any relevance to time in the business, or production so don 't pigeon-hole him. He also spends times on these forums during business hours because he doesn't want to interfere with his family time.   He rewards himself with ties and an occassional ice cream with the family when he hits his bogey. He learned that from old sage wise man who are now GP's and once upon a time walked five miles uphill in snow shoes when they started at Jones.

Zacko paints a fair picture of the two camps.  I believe there is a third, and it's probably the biggest of the three.   Camp 3:  Those that have enough common sense to know that Jones is a great company to be associated with, but is not without it's faults.  They are smart, dedicated, and loyal employees.  They have seen the other side and have chosen to stay put where they are for now.  They hear the arguments from both sides that say "I am the best" but don't believe either one.  Neither is a perfect scenario.  They have chosen that at this point in their lives,  EDJ is a great place to be.  They may or may not stay here until they retire.  Only time will tell.     I also don't believe that anyone with any sort of common sense at Jones believes that indy's don't make more money.  I can only speak for myself, but I would assume YTREWQ, B24, HKA, and the others would agree, but I don't doubt for a second that your takehome pay is higher than mine.  I also know that your risk is greater than mine.  Therein lies the rub.  For many of the top producers they just simply don't want the extra headaches that the extra 10-15% would bring.     Jones is not the same place it was when Zacko left.  Not anywhere close.  The improvements have been coming fast and furious and would be way too many to list here.  Just to give you an inkling of how different it is, I had a Fidelity wholesaler in my office yesterday.  I told him that I felt like I was inviting the enemy into my living room.  I would call that the new Jones.     Jones may not be the best firm for you, but they're certainly far from the worst firm in the biz.      

I am trying to be impartial as I have spent considerable time at both firms.  And, while I share my opinions–they are generally backed by facts and personal experiences.  I’m not saying Jones is a bad firm.  They do offer amazing rookie training and a script for success.  If you follow what they tell you to do and you work hard, you will become at least a semi-succesful financial advisor.

  The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.   RJFS is a well run firm.  I own the stock.  That's the extent of how much I care of what goes on here.  I run my office, pay my staff, do my job as well as I can--and then I go home.  It's a simple platform.  My question is why be paid less to do the same work?  Why on earth would  you place you and your family in a position where you DON"T OWN the business you have worked so damn hard to build?  The list goes on and on....    Again:  There is Camp 1 And:     There is Camp 2   Kool aid will be served at both camps and there is plenty to go around... so enjoy :)

[quote=BigCheese]Zacks-

  Your question about AMT isn't on their radar yet (wrong).  After several years (I will generalize) most are barely north of 100K gross (wrong) and they are relatively new in the biz.   Now before Spiff goes off on me again, I don't know his biz and I don't know him (true - you only act like you do), and I know he doesn't see any relevance to time in the business, or production (wrong) so don 't pigeon-hole him. He also spends times on these forums during business hours because he doesn't want to interfere with his family time (true).   He rewards himself with ties (wrong - I've never bought a tie for myself because I called a prospect or two) and an occassional ice cream with the family when he hits his bogey (wrong again). He learned that from old sage wise man who are now GP's and once upon a time walked five miles uphill in snow shoes when they started at Jones (true - I did hear it from Steve Seifert and Jack Cahill.  Both top producers, both GPs.  But they've never been with a firm besides Jones, so they don't know what they're talking about). [/quote]

Spiff are you suggesting that AMT for you is around the corner. Congrats I stand corrected. Oh wait a minute you just said I was wrong not that you actually are concerned about it.

  I have to side with Zack. It's either 1 or 2.   The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.   Come on Spiff- Let's hear your response to someone who has been there and done it vs someone who hopes to get there...

Zacko,

  Much of what you say is true, although you have no clue as to what has gone on technologically at Jones over the last several years.  I think you would be surprised/impressed how we have burst into the 1990's.....joking aside, I believe we now have formidable technology!   I also think that, as Spiff said, being that you are with RJ now, it is impossible for you to be unbias toward who you feel is the best.  This entire thread has been about semantics....nobody can tell me what is best for ME...I don't think i've heard a Jonesie or anyone else on this site ever say that Indy Reps don't make more Net than Jones or Wires.   Oh yeah...this thread has also managed to make Cheese almost civil and he is now adding value to almost every discussion....you coming back to the boards seems to be the same...although our opinions differ some, having these types of debates can really help....seems it helped you to make your decision to go Indy back in the day!?

[quote=zacko]I am trying to be impartial as I have spent considerable time at both firms.  And, while I share my opinions–they are generally backed by facts and personal experiences.  I’m not saying Jones is a bad firm.  They do offer amazing rookie training and a script for success.  If you follow what they tell you to do and you work hard, you will become at least a semi-succesful financial advisor.

  The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.   RJFS is a well run firm.  I own the stock.  That's the extent of how much I care of what goes on here.  I run my office, pay my staff, do my job as well as I can--and then I go home.  It's a simple platform.  My question is why be paid less to do the same work?  Why on earth would  you place you and your family in a position where you DON"T OWN the business you have worked so damn hard to build?  The list goes on and on....    Again:  There is Camp 1 And:     There is Camp 2   Kool aid will be served at both camps and there is plenty to go around... so enjoy :)[/quote]   Zacko,   It is good to see you alive and well and posting. You helped me to see things from a different perspective so I owe you a thank you. I left Jones about a year and a half ago to go independent. I talk occasionally to brethren that are at Jones and it is always with a little bit of fondness that I remember the Saturday meetings when I started. Would I go back to Jones, no. Am I thankful for the time I spent there, yes. I find it easier on a multitude of levels to accomplish what I need to for clients without encountering tradeoffs that stand between the client and myself now being independent.   Thanks again.

[quote=BigCheese]Spiff are you suggesting that AMT for you is around the corner. Congrats I stand corrected. Oh wait a minute you just said I was wrong not that you actually are concerned about it.

  I have to side with Zack. It's either 1 or 2.   The fact remains that down the road.... Jones offers less and less.  They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP's reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA's.  It's great for the brand new rep.  It's a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer.   Come on Spiff- Let's hear your response to someone who has been there and done it vs someone who hopes to get there... [/quote]   AMT - yes, it's one of those.    How do you figure that they undercompensate me?  If I had the exact same duties as an indy, but got paid like I do, you might have a point.  But if I worked for Morgan or Merrill/BAC or as an employee with RJ I'd get paid relatively the same way so how can you tell me that I'm undercompensated?  It's an apples to oranges conversation.  Indy's have a better payout.  Period.  There isn't anyone in the industry with a brain that doesn't know and understand that.  Again, you as an indy rep take more risk and have more responsibilities.  For that you should be compensated more.  Jones pays me what they said they were going to pay me.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It's not really a question of one being better than the other.  They're simply different.   

So basically if I understand you correctly you are asserting that I am just wrong. You apparently can’t admit that you are even close to AMT. It’s just important for you to dismiss any comments that don’t support your position.

  You are so ready to be a GP. I hope they are reading these forums. (Sorry HKA)

What comments don’t support my position? Whether I am close to AMT or not is pretty irrelevant to this discussion. 

  I'm not dismissing your comments.  I'm saying that you're arguing the point incorrectly.  To put it in your terms, the owner of the company gets paid more than the employees.  You, as an indy rep with LPL or RJ or Commonwealth or whatever affiliation you choose, are the owner of your firm and therefore are compensated for the risk you take by owning the firm.  If I read the RJ website correctly you are responsible for your own benefits, staff, their benefits, your own retirement plan, your own compliance, your own systems, etc.  I, as an employee of EDJ, am not taking the risk of being the owner and therefore am not compensated in the same way you are.   You have more risk than I do.  So do you get paid more than me?  Yes.  I'm not sure what else you want me to say.     

They undercompensate successful financial advisors, ask them to mentor their competition, and meanwhile the GP’s reap the reward and the balance of the profit goes to offset the cost of training new FA’s.  It’s great for the brand new rep.  It’s a $hit deal for a mid to larger producer

Spiff-   These are Zacks comments. When you are above 200K Zacks words would start to make sense to you. WHEN you are facing AMT, I think its around 125K net you will be scratching your head what to do to keep your hard earned dollars.   I think its fairly clear you aren't grasping the comments. Mine or Zacks. The total picture is quite different once you are at least Seg 4. Re-read Zacks comments previously, its not just compensation.   Anyone else care to help Spiff through this? We seem to have hit critical mass...