Morgan Stanley just canned trainees

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justaguy's picture
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I, and every one else, in the northwest training region training program got canned today. Yes, that included those with production on track equal to the level that was promised to earn them salery, grid, and bonus. I would think that this is nationwide. Good luck to the under $400k producers! Tough racket!

blarmston's picture
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I better call all my MS prospects to make sure they still have their advisors....... I love it.......

Farmboy's picture
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You can't make this stuff up.
Where are you heading? Don't get discouraged, the same thing happened to me after the stock crash in 87'. I came back and did well.
You don't come to wall street for management insights on personal or professional behavior. You come to do your own work or niche. Generally management is just the excuse class for price gouging down the pyramid.  
 
 

RecordGuy's picture
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Why did you get canned?  Sounds like a crappy company to work for.

troll's picture
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Farmboy wrote:
You can't make this stuff up.
 
Oh, sure you can 

Farmboy's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:Farmboy wrote:
You can't make this stuff up.
 
Oh, sure you can 

True I took it at face value.
 

troll's picture
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Farmboy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Farmboy wrote:
You can't make this stuff up.
 
Oh, sure you can 

True I took it at face value.
 

 
The announcement from Gorman said they let 500 current trainees go, that they were people "not tracking for long term success". I can't define that last bit for you.....

troll's picture
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Let me add, the same announcement said they weren't "making any reductions among Financial Advisors" and remain committed to growing the sales force.

troll's picture
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justaguy wrote:I, and every one else, in the northwest training region training program got canned today. Yes, that included those with production on track equal to the level that was promised to earn them salery, grid, and bonus. I would think that this is nationwide. Good luck to the under $400k producers! Tough racket!
I doubt it was "everyone", but that doesn't matter to you personally. Don't take it too hard. If you were doing well, get a position elsewhere. Sorry it happend to you and best of luck.

Farmboy's picture
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I always like when they settle on nice round numbers in layoffs, 500
Often it isn't audit proof. They count dead people or those arrested but it makes a memo. Let's pretend it's accurate and imagine how number 499 or 501 are taking it.
Say what you want, it's a poorly run business and company specifically. Another poor statement for the industry as a whole. Do you think the shark tank culture makes any client feel better, worse or more trusting when this gets distributed? 
 
 

fritz's picture
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Mike Butler...If someone told you an asteroid was coming on May 22 and you better hide under your bed....would you believe it?
On second thought I am surprised you didn't go on the spaceship that was following the "hail bob comet" a few years ago.

iconsult100's picture
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I would bet that a third of those trainees had to see it coming though.  If you're 8 months in the business with 10 clients and $500,000 in assets, you're screwed anyway.

MWD123's picture
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I think MS made some mistakes on this one.  Trainees meeting their numbers were fired.  Junior FA's on at least one large team were fired as well.  This has many senior FA's very upset - they were not consulted prior to the announcement.  I'm happy with many of the changes over the last six months, however, this move does not seem well thought out.  What does this say to other FA's that are meeting their numbers?  Watch your back.

The Truth's picture
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Is Morgan/Dean Witter positioning themselves to sell off the retail brokerage
arm?

troll's picture
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Farmboy wrote:
Say what you want, it's a poorly run business and company specifically. Another poor statement for the industry as a whole.

Nice broad statement, but what supports your claim?
Farmboy wrote:
 Do you think the shark tank culture makes any client feel better, worse or more trusting when this gets distributed? 

"Sharktank"???? BTW, what accounts? These were trainees.

troll's picture
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The Truth wrote:Is Morgan/Dean Witter positioning themselves to sell off the retail brokerage arm?
There is no Dean Witter and no, MS won't be selling the retail arm.

troll's picture
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fritz wrote:
Mike Butler...If someone told you an asteroid was coming on May 22 and you better hide under your bed....would you believe it?
On second thought I am surprised you didn't go on the spaceship that was following the "hail bob comet" a few years ago.

Still selling the "everyone below $400k will be cut by..." theory?
 
Care to make it interesting and put your money where your mouth is? And, no, even though the "by date" has passed at least three times on this prediction, I won't be giving you odds. 

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MWD123 wrote:Junior FA's on at least one large team were fired as well.  This has many senior FA's very upset - they were not consulted prior to the announcement.  QUOTE]
I can understand senior FAs being upset, but then these guys were really Jr FA employed by the seniors, they were trainees employed by MS.

troll's picture
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It's true, as I said, 500 were cut. It is not true, as the first post claimed, that
everyone was cut.

Incredible Hulk's picture
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mikebutler - i think MS has their own flavor of kool-aid and gorman's holding your bong.

justaguy's picture
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Sure at least a third saw it comming. Yes trainees that were tracking got let go. Yeah, senior FAs were not consulted before their juniors got fired. It is what it is, and Morgan Stanleys' promises to their people are good untill they are not. It's not personal it's just business, as the mafia hit men supposedly say. The million dollar producers are safe, untill the  promise to not sell the retail arm is no longer valid. You will know that promise is void when you show up in the morning there is a new name on the building. The beat goes on.

fritz's picture
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Mike Butler...Yes...Anyone 350-400 is the range for trouble.  From what I understand the exact number is not set.
Late August is still the timeframe.  If your over the number then I do not understand why you waste your time here.  If you are under then you should get your sh*t together soon.

iconsult100's picture
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MWD123 wrote:I think MS made some mistakes on this one.  Trainees meeting their numbers were fired.  Junior FA's on at least one large team were fired as well.  This has many senior FA's very upset - they were not consulted prior to the announcement.  I'm happy with many of the changes over the last six months, however, this move does not seem well thought out.  What does this say to other FA's that are meeting their numbers?  Watch your back.
I think the numbers are flawed from the start.  You're not going to make it in this business if you get $7million.  You need to get up to 20+ in two years, especially if you are doing fee based. 

iconsult100's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:
I can understand senior FAs being upset, but then these guys were really Jr FA employed by the seniors, they were trainees employed by MS.

I do think the Senior FAs should have been consulted because they were probably working the system.  They were probably making sure the Jr. FA only generated enough revenue to get by so that the team as a whole could make more money.  I do agree however, that the Senior FAs forget that the Jr FAs are paid by MS, not the Senior FA.
 

iconsult100's picture
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Incredible Hulk wrote:mikebutler - i think MS has their own flavor of kool-aid and gorman's holding your bong.
Kool-Aid?  Do you see MS brokers pushing products like the Jones guys or the insurance salesmen.... No.  I would like to know what you are refering to because that statement makes no sense to me.

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iconsult100 wrote:I would bet that a third of those trainees had to see it coming though.  If you're 8 months in the business with 10 clients and $500,000 in assets, you're screwed anyway.
if thats your scenario, you will soon be fired for not meeting goals so it wouldnt make a lot of sense to preemptively cut 500.  sucks for people who had a big client or 2 almost on the books though.  a lot of successful brokers dont steadily bring in $100k accounts, often a $5mm or $10mm pop is how people get going
 

troll's picture
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Incredible Hulk wrote:mikebutler - i think MS has their own flavor of kool-aid and gorman's holding your bong.
Sure, I'm a kool-aide lover because I won't bite on Fritz' rumor that everyone below $400k is going to be cut. The fact that the deadline for the rumor has passed at least three times already and that such a cut would make no business sense has nothing to do with my view.
 
Feel better now? 

troll's picture
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justaguy wrote:It is what it is, and Morgan Stanleys' promises to their people are good untill they are not.
I've said that before and that truth applies to every business in the world, including indy B/d when they make promises to the Reps using their services and even the Reps themselves when they make promises to their employees.

troll's picture
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fritz wrote:
Mike Butler...Yes...Anyone 350-400 is the range for trouble.  From what I understand the exact number is not set.
Late August is still the timeframe.  If your over the number then I do not understand why you waste your time here.  If you are under then you should get your sh*t together soon.

Again, Fritz, let's make it interesting and put your money where your mouth is. BTW, plenty of us here are above that line and simply enjoy this forum. Sorry if that doesn't meet your approval. 

xmsbroker's picture
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a few thoughts on why this is wrong...
lies, lies, lies.  how many times have morgan employees been told there would be 'no more cutbacks'?  after about the 4th time in < 1yr that it was proved wrong, i jumped ship. 
in his memo, gorman draws a line bw trainees and FAs (who are supposedly safe).  at least in my office, trainees are FAs after 4 months.  there is no distinction.  trainees are forced to market themselves as financial advisors, there were 0 teams or partnerships.  there was no training program.  'trainees' were given 4 months to get 3 licenses but absolutely no instruction on how to be an FA except for a couple of useless conference calls.  no week in nyc, not even a 3 day boot camp in a regional hq.  there werent any 'junior fas.'  just a few green people (not necessarily younger) aimlessly trying to bring in some $$...  
ms says they fired 500 out of 1000, but there were originally 2500 trainees from the '05 classes.  wonder where the other 1500 went.  most didnt quit bc they were scared of the training repayment contract...
why not just let attrition take its course and start w/ smaller classes going forward?  if so few people are being successful, they will be forced out in a couple of months at the most anyways.  but oh yes, many would get a bonus for hitting goals. wouldnt want that to happen.
in what has become typical fashion, uncle mo foolishly tries to save a little bit of cash at the expense of bad press.  the irony is they may not even save any money w/ severance, unemployment benefits, legal action, etc. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Greenbacks's picture
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If the employees cannot trust there employer! How can the customers trust the company or the employees?
New employees must have signed contracts? So the company just breaks them! Sounds like a place I would not want to be!  
I hope this sends a message to all reps. Stay out of the wire houses! 

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Greenbacks wrote:
If the employees cannot trust there employer! How can the customers trust the company or the employees?
New employees must have signed contracts? So the company just breaks them! Sounds like a place I would not want to be!  
I hope this sends a message to all reps. Stay out of the wire houses! 

they cant and they dont.  clients will continue to leave... i wouldnt be suprised to see a class action law suit out of this
 

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fired?'s picture
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Although I feel sorry for the trainees that were let go in my complex, honestly not one of them was worth keeping around. There is no way that they would have been successful advisors in the long term. Absolutely none. The situation was similar around the country. The training program is not what it should be and Gorman will hopefully rectify the inefficiencies. I understand that I am not 100% safe given my level of production, but this business is difficult. If I do not continue to grow my assets and revenues I will be fired. Plain and simple. You have to prove yourself everday, to clients, to prospects, to your family, and to your firm.

Business is tough. Shareholders don't have feelings.

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xmsbroker wrote:
a few thoughts on why this is wrong...
lies, lies, lies.  how many times have morgan employees been told there would be 'no more cutbacks'?  after about the 4th time in < 1yr that it was proved wrong, i jumped ship. 
in his memo, gorman draws a line bw trainees and FAs (who are supposedly safe).  at least in my office, trainees are FAs after 4 months.  there is no distinction.  trainees are forced to market themselves as financial advisors, there were 0 teams or partnerships.  there was no training program.  'trainees' were given 4 months to get 3 licenses but absolutely no instruction on how to be an FA except for a couple of useless conference calls.  no week in nyc, not even a 3 day boot camp in a regional hq.  there werent any 'junior fas.'  just a few green people (not necessarily younger) aimlessly trying to bring in some $$...  
ms says they fired 500 out of 1000, but there were originally 2500 trainees from the '05 classes.  wonder where the other 1500 went.  most didnt quit bc they were scared of the training repayment contract...
why not just let attrition take its course and start w/ smaller classes going forward?  if so few people are being successful, they will be forced out in a couple of months at the most anyways.  but oh yes, many would get a bonus for hitting goals. wouldnt want that to happen.
in what has become typical fashion, uncle mo foolishly tries to save a little bit of cash at the expense of bad press.  the irony is they may not even save any money w/ severance, unemployment benefits, legal action, etc. 
QUOTE]
Just a few thoughts on why you're wrong...
 Trainees are NOT FAs. I don't know what you've been told in your office, but trainees aren't FAs, period. They’re tracked, accounted for and paid differently than FAs. They’re essentially on probation until the exit their training program.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I also have no idea where you get your impression that the training program was nothing more than a few useless conference calls. They fired 500 of the CURRENT CLASS, not the entire year’s class. I seriously doubt they'll be any "bad press" as a result of firing trainees who weren't making the cut (we heard the same thing about lawsuits from the cuts in August). You can count on cash being saved (your list of costs associated with just doesn't stand up), but in the long run I doubt cash was the real reason. It's more likely that getting on with revamping the training program and getting the new WM deal up and running was the real motivation.
 

troll's picture
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xmsbroker wrote:Greenbacks wrote:
If the employees cannot trust there employer! How can the customers trust the company or the employees?
New employees must have signed contracts? So the company just breaks them! Sounds like a place I would not want to be!  
I hope this sends a message to all reps. Stay out of the wire houses! 

they cant and they dont.  clients will continue to leave... i wouldnt be suprised to see a class action law suit out of this
 

ROFLMAO....

xmsbroker's picture
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fired? wrote:Although I feel sorry for the trainees that were let go in my complex, honestly not one of them was worth keeping around. There is no way that they would have been successful advisors in the long term. Absolutely none. The situation was similar around the country. The training program is not what it should be and Gorman will hopefully rectify the inefficiencies. I understand that I am not 100% safe given my level of production, but this business is difficult. If I do not continue to grow my assets and revenues I will be fired. Plain and simple. You have to prove yourself everday, to clients, to prospects, to your family, and to your firm. Business is tough. Shareholders don't have feelings.
where were the lines drawn? $2mm? 

troll's picture
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xmsbroker,
Did you happen to leave last August? Also, what's with the caps problem?
 

justaguy's picture
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Either you do, or you don't. I am not trying to make excuses. However there was not much of a training program. No teams formed, in over 6 months only 3 of the one on one weekly development meetings happened, and maybe 4 of the weekly junior FA group meetings occurred, not one single meeting with the branch manager. Hard to believe but true. I ended up dragging my feet on two multimillion dollar accounts because I thought the system was too messed up for me to want to stay. Maybe my thinking is wrong: but I bring someone over because I am going to take care of them, and I just can't bring them over if I think I won't be there for them. For myself, I am fine with the cut: I just feel sorry for thoes that continued, and continue, to believe. And the beat goes on, and on.....

xmsbroker's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:xmsbroker wrote:
a few thoughts on why this is wrong...
lies, lies, lies.  how many times have morgan employees been told there would be 'no more cutbacks'?  after about the 4th time in < 1yr that it was proved wrong, i jumped ship. 
in his memo, gorman draws a line bw trainees and FAs (who are supposedly safe).  at least in my office, trainees are FAs after 4 months.  there is no distinction.  trainees are forced to market themselves as financial advisors, there were 0 teams or partnerships.  there was no training program.  'trainees' were given 4 months to get 3 licenses but absolutely no instruction on how to be an FA except for a couple of useless conference calls.  no week in nyc, not even a 3 day boot camp in a regional hq.  there werent any 'junior fas.'  just a few green people (not necessarily younger) aimlessly trying to bring in some $$...  
ms says they fired 500 out of 1000, but there were originally 2500 trainees from the '05 classes.  wonder where the other 1500 went.  most didnt quit bc they were scared of the training repayment contract...
why not just let attrition take its course and start w/ smaller classes going forward?  if so few people are being successful, they will be forced out in a couple of months at the most anyways.  but oh yes, many would get a bonus for hitting goals. wouldnt want that to happen.
in what has become typical fashion, uncle mo foolishly tries to save a little bit of cash at the expense of bad press.  the irony is they may not even save any money w/ severance, unemployment benefits, legal action, etc. 
QUOTE]
Just a few thoughts on why you're wrong...
 Trainees are NOT FAs. I don't know what you've been told in your office, but trainees aren't FAs, period. They’re tracked, accounted for and paid differently than FAs. They’re essentially on probation until the exit their training program.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I also have no idea where you get your impression that the training program was nothing more than a few useless conference calls. They fired 500 of the CURRENT CLASS, not the entire year’s class. I seriously doubt they'll be any "bad press" as a result of firing trainees who weren't making the cut (we heard the same thing about lawsuits from the cuts in August). You can count on cash being saved (your list of costs associated with just doesn't stand up), but in the long run I doubt cash was the real reason. It's more likely that getting on with revamping the training program and getting the new WM deal up and running was the real motivation.
 

im not sure what your hard on for ms is, but these are my impressions from the branch i was at.  obviously any given branch could be different w/ a great mgr.  on the other hand, im sure some branches were worse than my old one.
my impression of the trng program comes from having 3 trainees sitting outside of my old office.  they were given no help.  our branch didnt have a sales mgr and the bom was mia most of the time.  their training consisted of asking people like me questions. no meetings,  no structure and no real accountability either.
i dont claim to know everything about the 500/1000 number, but i do know someone who's year wouldve been up in a month or two so they certainly pulled from a good portion of last years class
trainees are not fas only when its convenient.  they are 'real' FAs to the public.  they solicit and conduct business as any other FA would.  hell, theyd probably be fired if they told a prospect they were a trainee.
the bad press comes from promising these people at least a year to hit the numbers.  if people are told to focus on HNW prospects, then 1 client can crush the numbers.  its not accurate to say they 'werent on pace' when the tracking goal is $2mm.  one good client and your a 'leader' 

xmsbroker's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:
xmsbroker,
Did you happen to leave last August? Also, what's with the caps problem?
 

i left in february, lucked into a job trading for one guys account.  no more greasing the pole of the public or ms for me

troll's picture
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Either you do, or you don't. I am not trying to make excuses.
Sure sounds like it...
 No teams formed,
No teams formed among trainees? Why would trainees for a team? If you're saying no senior brokers offered to bring you in to their team, wel....
in over 6 months only 3 of the one on one weekly development meetings happened, and maybe 4 of the weekly junior FA group meetings occurred, not one single meeting with the branch manager.
Sounds like your branch guy was DOA...
 Hard to believe but true. I ended up dragging my feet on two multimillion dollar accounts because I thought the system was too messed up for me to want to stay.
Sure, and you had Donald Trump's money lined up too, but couldn't decide if you wanted to say or not...
 For myself, I am fine with the cut: I just feel sorry for thoes that continued, and continue, to believe. And the beat goes on, and on
I doubt those that made the cut need your pity. Again, sorry you got cut and good luck elsewhere. XMSBROKER seems to have a Jones gig now, maybe you can too

xmsbroker's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:
Either you do, or you don't. I am not trying to make excuses.
Sure sounds like it...
 No teams formed,
No teams formed among trainees? Why would trainees for a team? If you're saying no senior brokers offered to bring you in to their team, wel....
in over 6 months only 3 of the one on one weekly development meetings happened, and maybe 4 of the weekly junior FA group meetings occurred, not one single meeting with the branch manager.
Sounds like your branch guy was DOA...
 Hard to believe but true. I ended up dragging my feet on two multimillion dollar accounts because I thought the system was too messed up for me to want to stay.
Sure, and you had Donald Trump's money lined up too, but couldn't decide if you wanted to say or not...
 For myself, I am fine with the cut: I just feel sorry for thoes that continued, and continue, to believe. And the beat goes on, and on
I doubt those that made the cut need your pity. Again, sorry you got cut and good luck elsewhere. XMSBROKER seems to have a Jones gig now, maybe you can too

Im not sure why you keep making snide insults/assumptions about me.  There are plenty of good things about MS, the training program is not one of them.  Strange that youre so hostile towards any criticism of the firm when even Mack publicly bashes the program.

doneMS's picture
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If you are producing over 400K at Morgan you are probably safe, everyone else needs to find another firm, or career.

xmsbroker's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:xmsbroker wrote:
QUOTE]
They fired 500 of the CURRENT CLASS, not the entire year’s class.
please enlighten me as to what the 'current class' refers to.  people who started in '06 arent even in production yet and there were very few hires after August of '05.

blarmston's picture
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"The bad press comes from promising these people at least a year to hit the numbers.  if people are told to focus on HNW prospects, then 1 client can crush the numbers.  its not accurate to say they 'werent on pace' when the tracking goal is $2mm.  one good client and your a 'leader' ".
Tracking goal is 2 mil in first year...... ML wants you to have 2 mil by month 4....

troll's picture
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xmsbroker wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:xmsbroker wrote:
QUOTE]
They fired 500 of the CURRENT CLASS, not the entire year’s class.
please enlighten me as to what the 'current class' refers to.  people who started in '06 arent even in production yet and there were very few hires after August of '05.

There are several classes during the year. Not everyone has the same start/hire date.

troll's picture
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im not sure what your hard on for ms is, but these are my impressions from the branch i was at. 
I simply want criticism to be accurate. You're right, branch impressions are key and they vary a great deal. OTOH, the fact that trainees ARE NOT FAs isn't a branch issue, it's firm policy.
my impression of the trng program comes from having 3 trainees sitting outside of my old office.  they were given no help. 
Sounds like you didn't go thru the program yourself. The "got no help" thing is a universal throughout the biz. When I hear it I wonder what, exactly, people are asking for. I went thru ML's program, which I hear is the best in the biz, and I still heard "I got no help".
 
i dont claim to know everything about the 500/1000 number, but i do know someone who's year wouldve been up in a month or two so they certainly pulled from a good portion of last years class
"Who's year wouldve been up in a month or two"?????? LOL
trainees are not fas only when its convenient.  they are 'real' FAs to the public. 
They aren't real in the firm in tracking or pay, so your "lies, lies, lies" claim is mistaken.
 
the bad press comes from promising these people at least a year to hit the numbers.  
"Bad press" with who? Other potential firms? You figure clinets think we should keep people not making the grade onboard? You think potential hires don't know (or shouldn't be told) that if they fail to make the grade they'll be cut?
 
 its not accurate to say they 'werent on pace' when the tracking goal is $2mm.  one good client and your a 'leader' 
Didn't you just tell us you didn't know the numbers?

troll's picture
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doneMS wrote:If you are producing over 400K at Morgan you are probably safe, everyone else needs to find another firm, or career.
Care to take the wager Fritz keeps declining? 

fired?'s picture
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The training program admittedly stinks. Gorman said that yesterday. The kids that were cut in my complex simply weren't working hard enough to warrant their employment. If those that were let go are serious about the field, call your local merrill office. They are insane about increasing head count these days. I guarantee you will get an interview.

troll's picture
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blarmston wrote:
"The bad press comes from promising these people at least a year to hit the numbers.  if people are told to focus on HNW prospects, then 1 client can crush the numbers.  its not accurate to say they 'werent on pace' when the tracking goal is $2mm.  one good client and your a 'leader' ".
Tracking goal is 2 mil in first year...... ML wants you to have 2 mil by month 4....

I'm not familiar with the tracking goals, but $2MM at the end of year one sounds like a joke.

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