Jones Secrets Revealed, Part II

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spikedkoolaid's picture
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Since Part 1 was so good I thought I would start another one.  Remember all you people reading this,  I was a $540,000 Gross/$54,000,000 AUM/8 year New/New. 
So at Jones when you had a prospective client come in from another firm to transfer the account, you always made them liquidate at the other firm, that way the money coming in was in cash and you could get paid.  I remember giving a toast at a regional meeting at a bar to the "Liquidate and Transfer Form." 
One specific example I remember was early in my career at Jones.  I was reviewing a portfolio and I asked my mentor for help.  Without even listening to my questions he replied, "Liquidate and Transfer."
I remember selling my prospective client on selling the Franklin CA Tax Free fund that she owned for 10 years.  We bought individual 3 pt bonds.  This was back when there was no aggregation rule.  It's funny how that Franklin is one of the preferred families paying Jones revenue sharing now.  More to come...

Dazed's picture
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Joined: 2005-02-18

spiked now tell us all why you left jones. can you be honest with this ?. doubt it.

The Truth's picture
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Spiked-

Give us more. You know too much to keep this bottled up.

Captain's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-07

I've gotta say, that's one of that absolute worst things I've seen from the
EJ guys in my area.

I had a client with the same situation - She had a state-specific tax
exempt fund through Franklin. The EJ guy had prepared that infamous
'transfer and liquidate' form - I liquidated, and the check was mailed off.

I got a call from the client, and I just so happened to ask 'what did you do
with that cash?' - Her reply was that it went into some American Funds
tax free bond fund. I just about wanted to submit a complaint to EJ about
this type of sales practice - It's completely wrong and totally unethical.

'Transfer and Liquidate' - at least then, EJ doesn't see it as a mutual fund
'switch'... right?

Nice..... Nice.....

Upsetting - we are all judged by the actions of another. That stuff makes
me ill.

C

noggin's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-30

spikedkoolaid wrote:
Since Part 1 was so good I thought I would start another one.  Remember all you people reading this,  I was a $540,000 Gross/$54,000,000 AUM/8 year New/New. 
So at Jones when you had a prospective client come in from another firm to transfer the account, you always made them liquidate at the other firm, that way the money coming in was in cash and you could get paid.  I remember giving a toast at a regional meeting at a bar to the "Liquidate and Transfer Form." 
One specific example I remember was early in my career at Jones.  I was reviewing a portfolio and I asked my mentor for help.  Without even listening to my questions he replied, "Liquidate and Transfer."
I remember selling my prospective client on selling the Franklin CA Tax Free fund that she owned for 10 years.  We bought individual 3 pt bonds.  This was back when there was no aggregation rule.  It's funny how that Franklin is one of the preferred families paying Jones revenue sharing now.  More to come...

The discussion should be called spikedkoolaid secrets. Everyone has an opportunity to run their business how they see fit. It's pretty obvious that you have taken very little responsibility for your actions in the past other than to blame it on someone else. I guess in some sad way you are proud of yourself, perhaps a responsible man would go back to those clients that were offended and ask for their forgiveness. 

guest8900's picture
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Joined: 2005-11-17

and you don't think this happens at other firms?

Revealer's picture
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Joined: 2005-02-13

None that I run into. Interesting to know there was a toast to the "Liquidate and Transfer" form @ a jones regional meeting. I have trapped the jones L&T form by having the client (former) call the jones broker and question the time lag of being out of mkt. (Mmmm.lessee, don't those guys believe in "buy & hold?) 

spikedkoolaid's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-20

I don't know where to start!  I left Jones because I was making $220,000/year and was being taxed at 35% and 11% state.  I hit the AMT every year and I was tired of Jones making promises they couldn't deliver (limited partnership).
The liquidate and transfer form was a way that you could avoid the switch letter because the money was coming in as cash.  It looked clean to the field supervisors. 
I have taken full responsibility for what I have done the last eight years.  I did all the things I have said.  Was I proud of every thing I did, NO!  Was I excited about missing breakpoints, NO!  Was I fired up that Jones had no Fee Based Program, NO!  Was I pumped about liquidating the Franklin CA Tax Free Fund and putting it in 3pt bonds, so I could get, "paid", NO! 
I am just exposing what a lot of top producers at Jones are forced to do because they have to figure out a way to make money every month. 
These top producers are great salespeople.   Doug Hill has said it many times.  "You people are the best salespeople on the face of the planet."  I think back to that comment and realize you have to be a great salesman to sell someone on selling out of a perfectly good tax free fund and putting them in a 3pt Tax Free Muni Bond.  It is well known at Jones that you don't want to sell "bond funds" but instead put them in a bond that is fixed interest.  That way when interest rates rise you can do a bond swap and get paid again.  More to come... 

Kool-Aid Lover's picture
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Joined: 2005-11-28

Spiked,
I'm laughing so hard I spit Kool-aid all over my office, monitor, and oh man I got the dog too.  Now my wife is yelling at me to clean this mess up. 
"I am a much better financial advisor by working through Fee-Based"
You should put that on your business cards.

anonymous's picture
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Joined: 2005-09-29

Spiked, you were "forced" to do those things to make more money?
I feel bad for your clients.  You were ethically challenged at Jones.  Unless, you've changed as a person, there is no reason to think that you won't continue to be "forced" to do things to make more money.  
 

Tossthekoolaid's picture
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Joined: 2006-01-19

"It is well known at Jones that you don't want to sell "bond funds" but instead put them in a bond that is fixed interest."
Maybe its because bond funds just suk, esp when clients are taking the income.

spikedkoolaid's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-20

Well we finally got some KoolAid drinkers to respond!  Read Jones Secrets Revealed part I before you start popping off about Spiked's motives,etc. 
Tossthekoolaid is a perfect example of flawed investment advice from EDJ Reps that have been around awhile.  Maybe you should run some hypos on taking income from Bond Funds.  I suggest you start by looking at Van Kampen High Yield Muni and Goldman Sachs High Yield Muni and then go to Lord Abbett Bond Debenture.  These are all preferred funds in your stable and would provide a nice income to your clients and actually have a little bit of growth. 
I don't know where these Jones myths get started about Bond Funds Suck, but they sure do get ingrained in the culture/koolaid.

zacko's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

Spiked is correct on much of what he says. 

Malcolm's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-02

Bring on some more Spiked.  I love it.  The system at EDJ turns reps into desperate commission seekers.  Even vets live for the next new account and it NEVER ends.  
Speak up clones, what do you have to say for yourselfs?  

RecordGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-10

Why then do the brokers give the company such high marks?  Every broker I've talked to on and off the record has positive things to say, and they are making serious bank.  I have done some detective work, and the Jones reps in my area have accumulated plenty of assets.  It is strange that this company is bashed so badly and so often here.  Kinda reminds me of how hated WalMart, Microsoft, and McDonalds are. 

zacko's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

If you are starting every month at close to zero--what real choices do you have?  You are a running a transaction based business at Jones--end of story.
When explained the difference, clients like the fee based approach much better.  Either way, at Jones--you don't have the choice.  As a indies--we do.
 
 

Devoted SA's picture
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Joined: 2006-03-28

Totally true Malcolm and Zacko...was always the most amazing thing to see guys who were netting 30k every month scrambling around and as desperate as the new news.

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

spikedkoolaid wrote:
 
I don't know where these Jones myths get started about Bond Funds Suck, but they sure do get ingrained in the culture/koolaid.

I can't tell you were it started at Jones, but as for me, I think it was Peter Lynch who said "never, never, never buy a bond fund". Perhaps he overstated the case against them 

Greenbacks's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-21

Jones sounds pre-historic you must kill some thing every month to eat!
I would not enjoy living like that!
 

BrokerRecruit's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-19

I've known many reps that are in wires or even indies that are mostly transactional brokers.  The major difference is that they have targeted the clients that want a transactional broker and, for those who don't, they have the option of going fee-based. 

Tossthekoolaid's picture
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Joined: 2006-01-19

spiked,
Not one of the kool aiders here (check the name) but you are certainly entitled to your opinion on the use of bf's as am I. I have strong feelings about the performance of say LA bond deb which you made reference to. If you had put 100M in 1996 took divs in cash, you have 81,405 today. That given a falling interest rate environment (corps were 7.50 goveys 6.69 and junk 9.89% in 96) for most of the last 10 yrs. I'll give you the muni funds have held up much better and the VK you mention is one of the best.
I've used bond ladders most of my career because it is my preference for my clients. Not using many of those 3 pt bonds either as most of my ladders are short and intermediate term.

spikedkoolaid's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-20

Toss the KoolAid---Jones IR's don't use bond ladders because they don't want to sell a bond that does not have 2.75 to 3 pts in them.  If they put Intermediate term bonds in the inventory they would sit there like an old seersucker at the Goodwill.  They can only put 1 pt into the short tem bonds so no one sells them.

CIBforeveryone's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-12

I agree with Zacko...this is all true. It's sad to read it in print.
From someone who knows.
CIB
 
 

Tossthekoolaid's picture
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Joined: 2006-01-19

spikedkoolaid wrote:Toss the KoolAid---Jones IR's don't use bond ladders because they don't want to sell a bond that does not have 2.75 to 3 pts in them.  If they put Intermediate term bonds in the inventory they would sit there like an old seersucker at the Goodwill.  They can only put 1 pt into the short tem bonds so no one sells them.
 
Its hard to find 5-10 year paper at Jones, it is however very easy to find 1-5 year cd's for a short term ladder that pays almost ZIPPO but in many cases is the right thing for the client.  I could have made TONS more dough from my 100 million if I was selling 3 pt 40 yr bonds and 4% bond funds.
Once I flee the mother ship, I'll be using fee based for equities and ladders for fixed income rather than fee based.

exdrone's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-01

RecordGuy wrote:Why then do the brokers give the company such high marks?  Every broker I've talked to on and off the record has positive things to say, and they are making serious bank.  I have done some detective work, and the Jones reps in my area have accumulated plenty of assets.  It is strange that this company is bashed so badly and so often here.  Kinda reminds me of how hated WalMart, Microsoft, and McDonalds are. 
Drones are happy because they dont know any better.  Besides filling out L&T forms beats hauling beer out of a truck if you are good at selling.

exdrone's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-01

BTW, I too was told by my mentor to use the liquidate and transfer form as a way to avoid field supervision inquiries.  I believe this to be an unwritten but widespread practice at Jones.  I would like to know how IR's are justifying 20yr plus bonds to get 3pts when we are in a flat rate environment.  The difference in yield between a 5yr cd and a 20yr AAA bond is maybe half a percent, hardly worth the loss of value when rates rise.  I wonder how many fee based advisors are recommending long term fixed income right now. My guess is not many. Funny how making compensation for all products the same does affect recommendations.

exdrone's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-01

Of course all Jones brokers are taught to sell everything with a 20yr time horizon, when the average career of an IR at Jones is maybe 5yrs. 

zacko's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

With all this being said, Jones (at least when I started there) was a great place to start my business.  I made money, went on trips, got a ton of fake wood awards, and established some relationships that I still maintain today. 
Granted, they made alot more from me than I ever made from them--and the more my business grew, the more I became disenchanted with they way they interfered with the way I ran my business.  Ridiculous firm policy, limited product selection, poor payout, high expenses, poor benefits, etc..etc finally caught up with the puke green kool aid in my veins. 
While I am very happy I am no longer there & no matter what any of you at Jones say--being indy is SO MUCH BETTER THAN JONES IN EVERY WAY, I am still glad I got my start at Jones. 
 

noggin's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-30

Zacko- That's a very fair and balanced view. I appreciate it. BTW, I'm serious.

eddjones654's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-03

zacko,
You are so correct!

CIBforeveryone's picture
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zacko wrote:
With all this being said, Jones (at least when I started there) was a great place to start my business.  I made money, went on trips, got a ton of fake wood awards, and established some relationships that I still maintain today. 
Granted, they made alot more from me than I ever made from them--and the more my business grew, the more I became disenchanted with they way they interfered with the way I ran my business.  Ridiculous firm policy, limited product selection, poor payout, high expenses, poor benefits, etc..etc finally caught up with the puke green kool aid in my veins. 
While I am very happy I am no longer there & no matter what any of you at Jones say--being indy is SO MUCH BETTER THAN JONES IN EVERY WAY, I am still glad I got my start at Jones. 

I agree with everything said here completely as I ponder my own exit.
CIB

zacko's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

Planning & preparation are the keys to a successful move.  The battle is won before it is ever even fought...(I think that is from the Art of War)

CIBforeveryone's picture
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zacko wrote:Planning & preparation are the keys to a successful move.  The battle is won before it is ever even fought...(I think that is from the Art of War)
Agreed oh wise one that hath walked the battle ground before me.
 

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-31

Get Robert Fragasso's book "Starting Your Own Practice" and read it cover to cover before you get too far in the planning stages...
http://www.fragassogroup.com/
I was on a conference call with him on this subject and man, did I wish I had that information BEFORE the move!

hoosier's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

Zacko,
I agree with you I will always be greatful for the start I was provided at Jones.  I continue to have great friendships with other IR's.  It is more the home office that I really have a bad taste about.  When I left I went into my old branch office, introduced my self to my replacement and told him about clients who should stay at Jones.  I tried to help him with some landlord issues and several other items.  He was very greatful and has done a good job with clients who stayed at Jones.  The home office however was a different story.  They called clients and sold them out of good investments and did everything possible to make it sound as if I had been let go.  I had clients tell me that they were told I was fired for cause.  That I won't forget and for anyone who is thinking about leaving Jones just make sure your prep work with your clients is done before you leave.  That was the biggest mistake I made.  I think most of the IR's out there are good people and put the clients needs first.  The home offiice not only will lie to the IR while the work at the firm the will lie about them when they leave. 
 
 

zacko's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

They did the same thing to me when I left on many different levels.  For them fortunately, it was an exercise in futility.
While you are essentially competing for your own clients with a corporate entity who doesn't know them at all, it still was kinda fun.  In my own way, I treated it like going to battle.  Biggest surprise to me was how loyal my clients were.  I expected success--but nowhere to the level I ultimately achieved. 
If you plan properly and remain organized--Jones doesn't have a chance in hell.

Revealer's picture
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Joined: 2005-02-13

Is this the "most ethical thing to do?" Only jones in my opinion are such s**ts.

footsoldier's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-30

The sooner you recognize the doublespeak for what it is, the sooner you start your transition. If any IR took the time to really read the 10K, glancing past the highly compensated to the fine print. You like me would be looking for a new home.
Privacy has its priveliges. You can mislead the troops by not telling the whole truth. For instance, "Their is only one profit center." They are partially correct. There is only one profit center at EDJ brokerage. But there are many companies within  EDJ Holdings that generated 85M last year. Who knows what they do. The former managing partner is President of a securities firm owned by EDJ Holdings according to the Missouri Secretary of State website. Tossthekoolaid and others should look a little deeper. Stay tuned.

Tossthekoolaid's picture
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Joined: 2006-01-19

"Tossthekoolaid and others should look a little deeper. Stay tuned."
I'm one foot out the door so I doubt I need to look a little deeper.

85porsche's picture
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Joined: 2006-05-01

I love this.  I was a jones guy for the shortest period possible.  I got my training, some clients, gave them 10 cents on the dollar for training and said, nice knowing you.  buh-bye.   These guys who are partners, do not give a damn about anyone but themselves.   We had a general partner for a regional leader that was so arrogant and cliquee you could feel the hate he generated when he walked into a room.   In my case, I was promised an office after 8 accounts were opened.  I did that in a week.   18 mo. later, I'm still working out of a van and my living room.   Then, when they finally were shamed into doing something, they found an office that no reasonable person would EVER start a business at.   I told the alpha broker, who at the time appeared to be on my side, that I would quit first before I went into that office.   It was his call, mostly because the Regional Leader was too lazy to drive 35 miles.  He recommended that they rent the office for me.   I later found out that he was so threatened by me that he wanted me to quit so he could get my accounts and remain on top of the heap locally.    Edward Jones lied, went through almost unbelievable lengths to "gather assetts" and then when you finally give up trying to make it work, they sue you.   I was lured out of a very good business by nothing more than empty promises by dishonest people.   I am upset that I allowed myself to believe their lies.  "A GREAT OPPORTUNITY"  NOT.  Stay away from these bastards if you can.   A final note:   The "top"  broker locally took people out of their VA's he sold them at the bottom of the market, while still in surrender, then put them into FA's at the lowest interest rates in 30 yrs.  just to keep the money  coming.  Disgusting.   He should be in Jail.  
 

RecordGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-10

Wait, you paid Jones to let you out of your contract, even though you thought they breached the contract by not giving you an office in a timely manner, even though you met your numbers?  Shouldn't you have been the one demanding money?  And, only 8 accounts to get a branch office?  That's it? 
So, they probably spent $100,000 training you, and you are saying they then didn't follow through and get you and office?  What is the point?  Are you saying they are simply a f*cked company that does not operate in a rational manner?

gew21's picture
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Joined: 2006-05-01

Fellas,
 I have been reading this forum for well over a year now.  I do it for pure entertainment.  Some of the s**t that is posted on here simply kills me.  My computer has been down for a little while and I finally got it up and running again, guess where the first place I went was??  You got it!!  Here, just to hear you all cry.  Now don't get me wrong, this is my first post, so I don't want to offend anyone, especially you SEASONED vets, but most of this blows my mind.   Occasionally, well I shouldn't say that, OFTEN there are some very good points made.  (I want to request this first and foremost:  Don't judge my ability as an advisor by my spelling, seriously, most 3rd graders spell better than myself, and if I get any wisecracks about it I will referrence this first post.)
Porsche buddy,  what happended to you man.  Seriously, 18 months???  Not calling you a liar or anything, but you mentioned you opened 8 accounts your first week, or should I say MCI accounts "Friends and Family".  Just curious, what did you do for the next 17 months and 3 weeks, obviously you didn't stay on that pace, but I am sure you did ok.  If I was in your shoes I would have thrown in the towl also, but if you were doing as well as you claim, it would have been in EJ's interest to get you an office ASAP, but only you would know that.
As for Zacho and Hoosier, seriously, I didn't know it was firm policy to call the clients and break confidentiality by informing them of the details on you leaving the firm, but then again how would I know that??  I only had that job for 2 years, also I worked w/ 15 other Reps that did the same thing, nor did I ever over a 2 year period hear them inform clients of the details of losing their IR.  Believe what you may want to (I realize depending on the rep calling YOUR clients that it could have been done) but for the 2 of you to cry that EJ is calling your clients ripping you is absurd, could have happened, but highly unlikely, at least in the manner in which describe. 
Gotta run, but keep in mind, I am as much anti Jones as pro.  My anti's will come at another time.  One quick one:  Yes, most IR's @ Jones are very elementary:  Don't dare anyone request they deviate from the mountain chart, or 30 year tax free's net 3.  Everything oustide of that I had to learn on my own, no HQ support there.
Happy crying to everyone.
 
 
 
 
 

FREE's picture
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Joined: 2005-03-05

  Now a third party firm will be calling jones customers that have bought mutual funds and make sure they recieved the revenue disclosure statement. GPs just keep collecting and making the ir look like idiots!!! EXcuse me customer do you realize My firm makes more $$$$$ when you buy these 8 GREAT FUNDS? 

BrokerRecruit's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-19

There are ways to present leaving to clients depending on where you are and what type of agreement you are in.  The statements made will usually use the word "if" about eleventy kabillion times and not state any particular firm that you are moving to.

babbling looney's picture
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As for Zacho and Hoosier, seriously, I didn't know it was firm policy to call the clients and break confidentiality by informing them of the details on you leaving the firm, but then again how would I know that??  I only had that job for 2 years, also I worked w/ 15 other Reps that did the same thing, nor did I ever over a 2 year period hear them inform clients of the details of losing their IR.  Believe what you may want to (I realize depending on the rep calling YOUR clients that it could have been done) but for the 2 of you to cry that EJ is calling your clients ripping you is absurd, could have happened, but highly unlikely, at least in the manner in which describe.
Believe it or not....who cares what you think. 
There are subtle ways to insinuate bad things about the leaving rep without actually stating where he/she has gone or why.  I had the same experience and I know it is true, because my clients who came with me told me what the Transitional guy from St Louis was inferring.   As I stated before, my chair wasn't even cooled off before they had a guy calling and trying to get the clients to make changes in their portfolios and pressuring them to move their money from the bank etc etc.    When they asked "Who the hell are you?"  He gave them vague answers which made it sound like I had absconded illegally and gave the impression that I was in some sort of legal trouble.  As BrokerRecruit says there are ways to let you client know that there may be a move in the future so they knew that it wasn't true.
The replacement IR basically inferred to those clients who remained that I was let go because I was incompetent and had done bad things to their portfolios.....so then proceeded to churn the accounts.   Like Indyone....I took about 80%  of the clients that I really wanted....but it still pissed me off that the new IR, who didn't know his butt from a hole in the ground was spreading lies about me.  Unlike the phone calls from St Louis which used subtlety, the idiot in my old office was flat out telling lies....who could hear him? 
Just because it is against firm policy doesn't mean that it isn't happening.    wink wink nudge nudge.....
 

zacko's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

gew21,
What on earth are you talking about?  I had one of the best moves to indy on record...(over 90% assets) I'm not "crying"--If anything--it's the opposite.  I was merely agreeing with some of the tactics that Jones has used in the past.  Some are less than honest.  No big deal as I was prepared.
Did you even read the thread?  How clueless can you be?  As far as breaking client confidentiality--I think you meant breaking our employment contracts.  And, to that--I simply will say that I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
 

BrokerRecruit's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-19

The bottom line is this - would you rather have your FA who has probably done everything in his/her power to serve you properly continue to do so, or would you rather have a complete stranger take over your account.  Your choice.  Deal or no deal.

munytalks's picture
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Joined: 2006-04-17

GEW 21- stands for.... GEE Whiz, I'm 21 and know it all. Spare me your  "I'm gonna be fair and unbiased" smack. If you are still at Jones, you are drinking spiked Kool Aid and don't know what you are talking about. When you LEAVE, the spin starts. It happened to me- and everyone who has posted here. Oh, and when I was at Jones and a broker left- It is amazing how I also saw them as..... good thing they left. Something wasn't right about them.... maybe they are better off going independant where there are fewer.... restrictions , let's say. That'll do it. And when you are under the influence of Jones , you really don't know.. so turn that laptop back into Jones before they catch you using it for personal reasons.

exEJIR's picture
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babbling looney wrote:
 
 
The replacement IR basically inferred to those clients who remained that I was let go because I was incompetent and had done bad things to their portfolios.....so then proceeded to churn the accounts.   Like Indyone....I took about 80%  of the clients that I really wanted....but it still pissed me off that the new IR, who didn't know his butt from a hole in the ground was spreading lies about me.  Unlike the phone calls from St Louis which used subtlety, the idiot in my old office was flat out telling lies....who could hear him? 
Just because it is against firm policy doesn't mean that it isn't happening.    wink wink nudge nudge.....
 

Absolute truth!!!
I, too, have seen the inner workings of the Offices In Transition Dept.  As BL said, it's not usually the reps from STL H/O that start the smear campaign, it's the transitional rep that is sent to the office.
Remember, calls from the home office are recorded.  Office calls are not. (maybe or maybe not )  That would be one he** of a slander suit if the calls were made from the home office, recorded, and the IR's attorney were to be able to produce the tapes in court.  (hmmm)
 

Devoted SA's picture
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Joined: 2006-03-28

Gew...how long have you been moonlighting as a "Snap-On" salesman?
Just wondering since you seem to know SO much about tools.

exEJIR's picture
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Devoted SA wrote:
Gew...how long have you been moonlighting as a "Snap-On" salesman?
Just wondering since you seem to know SO much about tools.

Ouch!!!              

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