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Jones to RJFS --THANKYOU!

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Nov 23, 2009 9:11 pm

[quote=MR.D]Spiff,

It is true that EDJ takes at least 2% of a VA, and then pays you your % from the balance. It also happens on at least some Insurance contracts. The best way to validate it is ask a wholsaler who happens to call on independents.[/quote]   It's really not 2% it's more like 75 to 125 bps because EJ FA's still get a trail of 25 bps.  With most VA companies if you take the 7% or 7.5% up front, you get not trail...as you know.  The bottom line is...EJ get's there's first...I never signed up for that...did you Spiffy?
Nov 23, 2009 9:27 pm

You are correct, I forgot about the trails they get. The most common pay out that I am aware of  on the 7 year product is either 7.5% gross or 5.25% with .50% trail. Some differ ,but that is what I am used to getting.

Nov 23, 2009 9:27 pm

[quote=uwec1986][quote=Spaceman Spiff]

I've looked for the info on the VA commissions (see above)...  

[/quote]   Try to find a VA wholesaler who you have a good relationship with and sees other firms besides Jones...they know.  You may be able to get the info out of HQ but you'll be throwing up red flags so I wouldn't advise it.  Trust me...it happens...I've seen it brought up in meeting.  EJ gets a piece of the pie before you see it...did you sign up for 40% of the pie or 40% of the pie they decide to show you?  Have I made up any other details since I left in 2003?  NO!  Why would I make this up?   I'm guessing that EJ keeps about 90 - 95% of those Rev. Sharing dollars for the exact reasons you state...this is wrong...you should get your 40%.  Until EJ allowed fee based accounts, there was not much of a way to annuitize your biz...but EJ sure annuitized theirs...that's hypocrisy where I come from.   Do you agree with my risk assessment...I have the same risk as you do?  Actually...In some ways I have less...EJ can fire you for ANY reason and lock you out of THEIR office.  RJ can fire me but has to give me 30 days to move my clients to a new BD (this does not include criminal actions...we'll assume we are both ethical).  RJ will not call my clients either.  If you have a few too many c***tails at an EJ function and pi$$ off a GP they will have you locked out before you get back to the office and they will fight you for YOUR clients.  Please don't tell me this doesn't happen...it does.  If a GP wants his kid to take your office...he can.  That seems like a lot of risk to me...how about you?[/quote]   You didn't answer my question about who pays for the attorney if your RJ office get's subpoenaed.     I don't know of ANY instances where a GP had an FA fired for pissing them off while intoxicated.  I especially don't know of any where their kid came in and took over the office.  I know of a few who made fools out of themselves at regional meetings and got a phone call from the RL and GP with a very stern warning about not letting it happen again.   You can continue to make allegations like that, but I don't think you have any real examples of it happening.  Could it happen?  I suppose it could.  Does it happen, not as far as I know.  Of course it could be happening in some other region and I just don't hear about it.    Jones GPs don't have the clout to just snap their fingers and make things happen.  There's a process to everything here.  Surely you were here long enough to know that.  You've got to do something sexual harrassment oriented or crossing some sort of ethics line in order to be terminated immediately.  That does happen.  But David Lane can't just snap his fingers and take my office for his son.  I think you'd be really hard pressed to find an instance where it actually happened.   
Nov 24, 2009 2:19 am

Doesn’t EJ shave a little off of bonds before they put them on the green screen?

I heard somethng about that from an EJ guy about a year ago. He may have just been blowing off steam though.
Nov 24, 2009 3:01 am

Spiffy,

  I missed your question about who hires the attny...sorry...I would...just like you would if you wanted one who looks out for you and not the firm.   I've heard of rumors of GP's firing FA's on a whim but I really don't know for sure.  I do BELIEVE it has happened because the environment there makes it easy.  HQ thinks the FA are interchangeable cogs in the Jones wheel so firing one and putting in a rookie does not seem that far fetched to me.   N.D.,   I think RJ takes a piece at the bond desk too so I'm guessing most firms do.
Nov 24, 2009 1:21 pm

I know RJ’s bondesk is pretty transparent (on RJNet), so it should be easy to tell.  They definetly have additional compensation on syndicate issues and principle trades - but I don’t think on agent.

Nov 24, 2009 3:05 pm

The simple facts are that Jones:

(This example is using numbers that I believe to be correct but may not be now) Takes .75 to 1.50 BPS on every annuity contract sold before you get your 40% Let's quantify this number to make it real...... 300,000 producer who does 10% his revenue in VA business. Let's say they were all Hartford Director Contracts and all B shares...... Jones payout 4.75%    same contract    40% net Indy   payout 6.00%    same contract     90% net Placing 500,000 in premium over a year. Jones- 23,750 Gross    9,500 Net Indy-   30,000 Gross   27,000 Net   The part that Jones kept before paying you was 6,250. The net on that was 2500 dollars. The difference in the 2 businesses just on VA business is astounding. The net is 9,500 as opposed to 27,000.....The Jones person is giving up 17,500 on the VA business. He never even got a nice card from annuity operations thanking him for his contribution.   The bad thing is that on the VA business at Jones you can only do business with the annuity contracts that are approved. At least on the mutual fund business at Jones, you can do business with just about who you want to but the limitation on the VA side eliminates most of the VA world.   The same differences apply also to insurance business as well.    
Nov 24, 2009 3:07 pm

[quote=uwec1986]Spiffy,

  I missed your question about who hires the attny...sorry...I would...just like you would if you wanted one who looks out for you and not the firm.   I've heard of rumors of GP's firing FA's on a whim but I really don't know for sure.  I do BELIEVE it has happened because the environment there makes it easy.  HQ thinks the FA are interchangeable cogs in the Jones wheel so firing one and putting in a rookie does not seem that far fetched to me.   N.D.,   I think RJ takes a piece at the bond desk too so I'm guessing most firms do.[/quote]   I agree that if I feel I needed someone to represent me because I feel that I may have done something wrong and therefore need some legal defense, then I'm certainly going to pay for that myself.  I wouldn't expect Jones to cover that.  But that doesn't answer my question.  Let's say tomorrow you get served papers on an account which you know for a fact you haven't done anything either unethical or illegal with and you are confident you don't need a lawyer to represent you personally.  And LPL agrees with you.  Who gathers the requested paperwork?  Who preps you for the deposition?  Who pays for the attorney?  I know you said you haven't had any complaints yet.  Neither did my buddy until one walked into his office and handed him the court papers.  You never know when it could happen.  It's one small little thing, but I know for a fact that Jones will cover those bills and do that paperwork gathering for me.    What part of the environment here makes you think that it's easy for a GP to fire an FA?  As far as I know, Jones can't fire me unless I either don't meet production requirements or I do something illegal, unethical, or against firm policy.  Just because I get drunk and piss off a GP at a regional meeting because I tell him he's nothing but a pompous windbag and that his wife is ugly doesn't mean he has the ability to fire me come Monday morning.  What doesn't seem far fetched to you is so far from reality that it isn't even funny.    I might believe that all independant advisors steal from their clients because the environment makes it so easy to do.  But that doesn't make it true. 
Nov 24, 2009 3:14 pm

[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=uwec1986]Spiffy,

  I missed your question about who hires the attny...sorry...I would...just like you would if you wanted one who looks out for you and not the firm.   I've heard of rumors of GP's firing FA's on a whim but I really don't know for sure.  I do BELIEVE it has happened because the environment there makes it easy.  HQ thinks the FA are interchangeable cogs in the Jones wheel so firing one and putting in a rookie does not seem that far fetched to me.   N.D.,   I think RJ takes a piece at the bond desk too so I'm guessing most firms do.[/quote]   I agree that if I feel I needed someone to represent me because I feel that I may have done something wrong and therefore need some legal defense, then I'm certainly going to pay for that myself.  I wouldn't expect Jones to cover that.  But that doesn't answer my question.  Let's say tomorrow you get served papers on an account which you know for a fact you haven't done anything either unethical or illegal with and you are confident you don't need a lawyer to represent you personally.  And LPL agrees with you.  Who gathers the requested paperwork?  Who preps you for the deposition?  Who pays for the attorney?  I know you said you haven't had any complaints yet.  Neither did my buddy until one walked into his office and handed him the court papers.  You never know when it could happen.  It's one small little thing, but I know for a fact that Jones will cover those bills and do that paperwork gathering for me.    What part of the environment here makes you think that it's easy for a GP to fire an FA?  As far as I know, Jones can't fire me unless I either don't meet production requirements or I do something illegal, unethical, or against firm policy.  Just because I get drunk and piss off a GP at a regional meeting because I tell him he's nothing but a pompous windbag and that his wife is ugly doesn't mean he has the ability to fire me come Monday morning.  What doesn't seem far fetched to you is so far from reality that it isn't even funny.    I might believe that all independant advisors steal from their clients because the environment makes it so easy to do.  But that doesn't make it true.  [/quote] One of my business partners had exactly the scenario that you describe on an estate account. LPL did the prep work, gave him a consult with a lawyer for representation in short did everything that you think Jones would do. I consider this argument a non issue.
Nov 24, 2009 3:26 pm

Spiffy,

  I guess I need more info. on the attny thing...If RJ is named, they will have their folks there and I assume they will gather the data.  FA's will also have to gather info. like client notes not held on the system etc.  We are spending too much time on this one in 10000 possibility.  I'm guessing I have the same help from RJ as you.  I do know that I have E&O to cover claims and I know you don't...that's a much bigger issue that this lawyer scenario.   GP's can fire FA's anytime they like for any reason...especially here in FL because we are a Right to Work state...Employees can quit and Employers can fire you for any reason (excluding race).  GP's are Gods at EJ...are you kidding me?  Go tell a GP his wife is ugly and see what happens.  Any place to report to someone, you can get fired without cause...it's called the real world.  I don't report to someone so I can tell the President of RJ to kiss my a$$.  Start asking questions about the VA commissions and see if you don't get on some black list...you have no clue what you're dealing with over there.  Good luck with your delusions.   It's no easier for an Indy to steal from clients than at EJ...remember the Jones FA in the south who killed himself because he got caught?  Get off your BS EJ high horse and get a clue.
Nov 24, 2009 5:54 pm

No reason to keep pounding Spiff…he will fight to the bitter end.  Funny we haven’t heard from Borker Boy…He might be gearing for a jump to INDY in January. 

  I can honestly say being Indy has been one of the best business decisions I've ever made.  Heck, even my CPA decided to go out on his own after watching my practice grow the last 3 years.   Spiffy's dribble on protection, cost...blah blah blah is so overblown its funny.  I remember the day I made the call to St Louis about me leaving...she said.."Gosh, its soooo expensive to go Indy..how will you ever make it"...It ALL boils down to the work you do.  IF you continue to work hard, you will be greatly rewarded being Indy.  More so than anyplace else... 
Nov 24, 2009 6:34 pm

Ah cmon Spears. Spiff can’t be all wet.

  I have been trying for a couple of years to shed some light on the differences. He just can't or won't accept the fact that he is in a losing proposition. Either he will leave Jones or he will leave the business. His production isn't where any indy would want him to be his own OSJ, so he wouldn't have the advantages that we speak of.It would almost be a lateral move.   Now if  his production hits Seg 4 and his assets cross 25-30M then the light will shine. Let's hope he has the rose colored glasses off by then.
Nov 24, 2009 8:27 pm

[quote=BigCheese]Ah cmon Spears. Spiff can’t be all wet.

  I have been trying for a couple of years to shed some light on the differences. He just can't or won't accept the fact that he is in a losing proposition. Either he will leave Jones or he will leave the business. His production isn't where any indy would want him to be his own OSJ, so he wouldn't have the advantages that we speak of.It would almost be a lateral move.   Now if  his production hits Seg 4 and his assets cross 25-30M then the light will shine. Let's hope he has the rose colored glasses off by then. [/quote]   Oh, you are bad. 
Nov 24, 2009 10:17 pm

Was that too pointed?

  My bad. If the truth hurts...
Nov 24, 2009 11:21 pm

On a $250,000 fee based account where I work:

* Program fee is .21 * Ticket charges can be pased on to client or rep can eat it. * 12b-1 fees are passed along to rep on Non Retirement Accounts only.
Nov 25, 2009 3:55 am

[quote=iceco1d] On a comparable program (regular rebalancing 4x or 2x per year, using mutual funds) at my firm, the numbers on a $250K account would be as follows:



1.35% average fee to client (we have no say in the fee).

0.88% would hit the “grid” (47 bps “program fee”).

No ticket charges (regardless of what funds you’re using)

12b-1 fees are paid out to the FA (Q & NQ accounts), if you use funds that pay them (there is no difference in fee structure if you use A shares @ NAV w/ 12b-1s, or if you use advisor shares w/o a 12b-1).



So in my example…the highest payout at my firm is 85%; if you are using Vanguard funds for this example, 88 bps would hit your grid @ 85% for a net payout of 74.8 bps. This is a 49.9% actual payout, based on the fee charged to the client.



In the same example, if you use funds that pay a 25 bps 12b-1, client would still see 1.35% in fees on the statement, 88 bps would hit your "grid’ as fee revenue, and another 25 bps would hit your grid as a trail. In this case, 1.13% hits your “grid” of 85% (no ticket charges, again). 1.13% x 85% = 96 bps net. Actual payout based on the 1.5% charged to the client is a 64% payout. 96 bps on 1.75% (the 1.5% + .25% 12b-1, total compensation related charges tot he client) is a 55% payout.



Some funds on this platform have revenue sharing agreements with the b/d on top of it (that doesn’t affect our compensation, but still…).



B/Ds love to play games. Indies notoriously love to play with program fees and ticket charges, so lets get this out in the open if we are talking about haircuts.

[/quote]







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Nov 25, 2009 3:57 am

[quote=iceco1d] On a comparable program (regular rebalancing 4x or 2x per year, using mutual funds) at my firm, the numbers on a $250K account would be as follows:



1.35% average fee to client (we have no say in the fee).

0.88% would hit the “grid” (47 bps “program fee”).

No ticket charges (regardless of what funds you’re using)

12b-1 fees are paid out to the FA (Q & NQ accounts), if you use funds that pay them (there is no difference in fee structure if you use A shares @ NAV w/ 12b-1s, or if you use advisor shares w/o a 12b-1).



So in my example…the highest payout at my firm is 85%; if you are using Vanguard funds for this example, 88 bps would hit your grid @ 85% for a net payout of 74.8 bps. This is a 49.9% actual payout, based on the fee charged to the client.



In the same example, if you use funds that pay a 25 bps 12b-1, client would still see 1.35% in fees on the statement, 88 bps would hit your "grid’ as fee revenue, and another 25 bps would hit your grid as a trail. In this case, 1.13% hits your “grid” of 85% (no ticket charges, again). 1.13% x 85% = 96 bps net. Actual payout based on the 1.5% charged to the client is a 64% payout. 96 bps on 1.75% (the 1.5% + .25% 12b-1, total compensation related charges tot he client) is a 55% payout.



Some funds on this platform have revenue sharing agreements with the b/d on top of it (that doesn’t affect our compensation, but still…).



B/Ds love to play games. Indies notoriously love to play with program fees and ticket charges, so lets get this out in the open if we are talking about haircuts.

[/quote]





speaking of haircuts, I found you school photo Ice



Nov 25, 2009 4:48 am

[quote=curly] [quote=iceco1d] On a comparable program (regular rebalancing 4x or 2x per year, using mutual funds) at my firm, the numbers on a $250K account would be as follows:

 
1.35% average fee to client (we have no say in the fee).
0.88% would hit the "grid" (47 bps "program fee").
No ticket charges (regardless of what funds you're using)
12b-1 fees are paid out to the FA (Q & NQ accounts), if you use funds that pay them (there is no difference in fee structure if you use A shares @ NAV w/ 12b-1s, or if you use advisor shares w/o a 12b-1).
 
So in my example...the highest payout at my firm is 85%; if you are using Vanguard funds for this example, 88 bps would hit your grid @ 85% for a net payout of 74.8 bps.  This is a 49.9% actual payout, based on the fee charged to the client.
 
In the same example, if you use funds that pay a 25 bps 12b-1, client would still see 1.35% in fees on the statement, 88 bps would hit your "grid' as fee revenue, and another 25 bps would hit your grid as a trail.  In this case, 1.13% hits your "grid" of 85% (no ticket charges, again).  1.13% x 85% = 96 bps net.  Actual payout based on the 1.5% charged to the client is a 64% payout.  96 bps on 1.75% (the 1.5% + .25% 12b-1, total compensation related charges tot he client) is a 55% payout.
 
Some funds on this platform have revenue sharing agreements with the b/d on top of it (that doesn't affect our compensation, but still...).
 
B/Ds love to play games.  Indies notoriously love to play with program fees and ticket charges, so lets get this out in the open if we are talking about haircuts.
 [/quote]


speaking of haircuts, I found you school photo Ice

[/quote] Another troll....it crosses the line they impersonate the three stooges though
Nov 25, 2009 1:53 pm

[quote=Mr.Blonde][quote=curly] [quote=iceco1d] On a comparable program (regular rebalancing 4x or 2x per year, using mutual funds) at my firm, the numbers on a $250K account would be as follows:

 
1.35% average fee to client (we have no say in the fee).
0.88% would hit the "grid" (47 bps "program fee").
No ticket charges (regardless of what funds you're using)
12b-1 fees are paid out to the FA (Q & NQ accounts), if you use funds that pay them (there is no difference in fee structure if you use A shares @ NAV w/ 12b-1s, or if you use advisor shares w/o a 12b-1).
 
So in my example...the highest payout at my firm is 85%; if you are using Vanguard funds for this example, 88 bps would hit your grid @ 85% for a net payout of 74.8 bps.  This is a 49.9% actual payout, based on the fee charged to the client.
 
In the same example, if you use funds that pay a 25 bps 12b-1, client would still see 1.35% in fees on the statement, 88 bps would hit your "grid' as fee revenue, and another 25 bps would hit your grid as a trail.  In this case, 1.13% hits your "grid" of 85% (no ticket charges, again).  1.13% x 85% = 96 bps net.  Actual payout based on the 1.5% charged to the client is a 64% payout.  96 bps on 1.75% (the 1.5% + .25% 12b-1, total compensation related charges tot he client) is a 55% payout.
 
Some funds on this platform have revenue sharing agreements with the b/d on top of it (that doesn't affect our compensation, but still...).
 
B/Ds love to play games.  Indies notoriously love to play with program fees and ticket charges, so lets get this out in the open if we are talking about haircuts.
 [/quote]


speaking of haircuts, I found you school photo Ice

[/quote] Another troll....it crosses the line they impersonate the three stooges though[/quote]   133 posts since Oct. and you're not a troll?  Maybe just a loser?  WarDaddy wants to know.
Nov 25, 2009 2:01 pm

The Coming Stock

Market Bubble Burst



I told a friend two years ago

That real estate’s a bubble.

“I know,” he said,” but what the heck,

I’ll scoot before there’s trouble.”

Alas, he stuck around too long,

He wanted to hit top;

Now he sings a pauper’s song,

His losses just won’t stop.



I’m telling you today, my friend,

With stock’s still flying high,

This market’s gonna crash quite soon,

Though I’m not sure just why.

It might be war, or debt, or oil,

The tripper? Take your pick.

I can’t predict exactly but…

I’m saying: “Get out quick.”