EJ MONEY LOSING INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS

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B24's picture
B24
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Again, I wish someone could explain to me, in simple terms, how it is a Ponzi scheme?  How is Jones ANY different from any other company?  The want to grow their business to benefit the pockets of the owners?  Why does Apple want to grow their business?  Why does Bank of America need Merrill Lynch?  Why would and RIA want to bring on more advisors under them?  It's ALWAYS about the owners pockets.  No matter how you cut it, it's always the case.  You can criticize Jones' strategy to get there all you want, I don't care.  I don't always agree with how they do business either.  But if you call Jones' business model a Ponzi scheme, then every for-profit business is a Ponzi scheme.  I think some people are confused by the meaning of "Ponzi" scheme.  For the record, a Ponzi scheme has nothing to do with owners making money on the backs of their employees.  To compare what Enron was doing to Jones is just idiotic.  Enron was basically hiding liabilities in offshore LLC's, and siphoning money from the firm.  Explain to me exactly how Jones is doing anything remotely close to that?

noggin's picture
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B24 wrote:Again, I wish someone could explain to me, in simple terms, how it is a Ponzi scheme?  How is Jones ANY different from any other company?  The want to grow their business to benefit the pockets of the owners?  Why does Apple want to grow their business?  Why does Bank of America need Merrill Lynch?  Why would and RIA want to bring on more advisors under them?  It's ALWAYS about the owners pockets.  No matter how you cut it, it's always the case.  You can criticize Jones' strategy to get there all you want, I don't care.  I don't always agree with how they do business either.  But if you call Jones' business model a Ponzi scheme, then every for-profit business is a Ponzi scheme.  I think some people are confused by the meaning of "Ponzi" scheme.  For the record, a Ponzi scheme has nothing to do with owners making money on the backs of their employees.  To compare what Enron was doing to Jones is just idiotic.  Enron was basically hiding liabilities in offshore LLC's, and siphoning money from the firm.  Explain to me exactly how Jones is doing anything remotely close to that?
 
Drinking 4 cups of coffee and eating yellowjackets from the corner gas station is no way to start your day B24....

bspears's picture
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It is if you think the dude behind the counter has a 2100 IRA from his old job at the Piggly Wiggly.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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B - Did you notice that neither of the ex-Jonesers bothered to rebutt your comments?  Hmm...

B24's picture
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bspears wrote:It is if you think the dude behind the counter has a 2100 IRA from his old job at the Piggly Wiggly.
 
Did you try to prospect him too?  Damn it!  That was 105 large to my grid!

B24's picture
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noggin wrote:B24 wrote:Again, I wish someone could explain to me, in simple terms, how it is a Ponzi scheme?  How is Jones ANY different from any other company?  The want to grow their business to benefit the pockets of the owners?  Why does Apple want to grow their business?  Why does Bank of America need Merrill Lynch?  Why would and RIA want to bring on more advisors under them?  It's ALWAYS about the owners pockets.  No matter how you cut it, it's always the case.  You can criticize Jones' strategy to get there all you want, I don't care.  I don't always agree with how they do business either.  But if you call Jones' business model a Ponzi scheme, then every for-profit business is a Ponzi scheme.  I think some people are confused by the meaning of "Ponzi" scheme.  For the record, a Ponzi scheme has nothing to do with owners making money on the backs of their employees.  To compare what Enron was doing to Jones is just idiotic.  Enron was basically hiding liabilities in offshore LLC's, and siphoning money from the firm.  Explain to me exactly how Jones is doing anything remotely close to that?
 
Drinking 4 cups of coffee and eating yellowjackets from the corner gas station is no way to start your day B24....
 
 !!
 
What's a Yellowjacket?  It sounds like a southern thing.

bspears's picture
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Sorry to disappoint, but what you and your brethren call prospecting is hounding.  Prime example...I get a call yesterday, assistant says its Brian on the phone, Henry said to call.  I take the call...ask some probing questions on assets, what is wrong with his current situation.  He tells me he has 550k in MF's with his CPA.  Anything else...yah...I had a dude hounding me so I bought 10k in a mutual fund to get him leave me alone.  I say...I bet it was an Edward Jones sales person. He said Yah...howd you know.  What a freakin disaster that was...true story.  I just laughed and moved on. 

voltmoie's picture
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bspears wrote:Sorry to disappoint, but what you and your brethren call prospecting is hounding.  Prime example...I get a call yesterday, assistant says its Brian on the phone, Henry said to call.  I take the call...ask some probing questions on assets, what is wrong with his current situation.  He tells me he has 550k in MF's with his CPA.  Anything else...yah...I had a dude hounding me so I bought 10k in a mutual fund to get him leave me alone.  I say...I bet it was an Edward Jones sales person. He said Yah...howd you know.  What a freakin disaster that was...true story.  I just laughed and moved on. 
 
Wow, almost makes me want to cry in my coffee....   WTF is the point of your story other than you can't move on after leaving a firm?

Moraen's picture
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voltmoie wrote: bspears wrote:Sorry to disappoint, but what you and your brethren call prospecting is hounding.  Prime example...I get a call yesterday, assistant says its Brian on the phone, Henry said to call.  I take the call...ask some probing questions on assets, what is wrong with his current situation.  He tells me he has 550k in MF's with his CPA.  Anything else...yah...I had a dude hounding me so I bought 10k in a mutual fund to get him leave me alone.  I say...I bet it was an Edward Jones sales person. He said Yah...howd you know.  What a freakin disaster that was...true story.  I just laughed and moved on. 
 
Wow, almost makes me want to cry in my coffee....   WTF is the point of your story other than you can't move on after leaving a firm?

This ought to be fun.

bspears's picture
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Volt...sorry.  I hope that wasn't you he was talking about. 
 
Oh..I've moved on.  I just get reminded from time to time what  "Amway, Avon, Newspaper subscription, refrigerator magnet" type  sales company you work for.  You ever notice the "EDJ has the best sales training" is repeated over and over.  I bet they say the same about AVON.  What stock idea do you have for us today?

voltmoie's picture
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bspears wrote:Volt...sorry.  I hope that wasn't you he was talking about. 
 
Oh..I've moved on.  I just get reminded from time to time what  "Amway, Avon, Newspaper subscription, refrigerator magnet" type  sales company you work for.  You ever notice the "EDJ has the best sales training" is repeated over and over.  I bet they say the same about AVON.  What stock idea do you have for us today?
 
*yawn*

BigCheese's picture
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I don't think EDJ is a ponzi scheme. But it is mathematically driven. Anyone remember those charts they used to throw out at meetings (during the growth section...always had one at every get together come to think of it)about the firm would grow X amount and the firm would make Y and then the reps would get their little bone thrown to them to keep them satisfied.
Forget about the millions the FA's were giving them for the privelige of startingor managing  their little practices. Adding salt to the wound is when it was said and done...they owned nothing for their hard work. So no, I wouldn't call it a ponzi scheme, I could use other terms that would adequately describe the firm in my eyes...
 
By the way...Any word on re-instating bonus'? I gotta believe growth is continuing at its torrid pace 200/mo was the number 3 years ago. The top producers can't be happy.

Hey Kool-Aid's picture
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BigCheese wrote:
I don't think EDJ is a ponzi scheme. But it is mathematically driven. Anyone remember those charts they used to throw out at meetings (during the growth section...always had one at every get together come to think of it)about the firm would grow X amount and the firm would make Y and then the reps would get their little bone thrown to them to keep them satisfied.
Forget about the millions the FA's were giving them for the privelige of startingor managing  their little practices. Adding salt to the wound is when it was said and done...they owned nothing for their hard work. So no, I wouldn't call it a ponzi scheme, I could use other terms that would adequately describe the firm in my eyes...
 
By the way...Any word on re-instating bonus'? I gotta believe growth is continuing at its torrid pace 200/mo was the number 3 years ago. The top producers can't be happy.
 
Bonus has been reinstated...

B24's picture
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bspears wrote:Sorry to disappoint, but what you and your brethren call prospecting is hounding.  Prime example...I get a call yesterday, assistant says its Brian on the phone, Henry said to call.  I take the call...ask some probing questions on assets, what is wrong with his current situation.  He tells me he has 550k in MF's with his CPA.  Anything else...yah...I had a dude hounding me so I bought 10k in a mutual fund to get him leave me alone.  I say...I bet it was an Edward Jones sales person. He said Yah...howd you know.  What a freakin disaster that was...true story.  I just laughed and moved on. 
 
One's prospecting strategy is what they make of it.  You are viewing it through the lense of someone that started at Jones.  Most FA's starting at any firm hound people for a while until they get going.  I don't think Jones ever cornered the market on "hounding" prospects.  I am sure you have ACAT'd enough accounts from other firms to know that every firm has that problem.  Some of the worst accounts I see come from Merrill Lynch.
 
What you are referring to is the difference between a "newbie" and an established advisor in this industry.

noggin's picture
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B24 wrote:noggin wrote:B24 wrote:Again, I wish someone could explain to me, in simple terms, how it is a Ponzi scheme?  How is Jones ANY different from any other company?  The want to grow their business to benefit the pockets of the owners?  Why does Apple want to grow their business?  Why does Bank of America need Merrill Lynch?  Why would and RIA want to bring on more advisors under them?  It's ALWAYS about the owners pockets.  No matter how you cut it, it's always the case.  You can criticize Jones' strategy to get there all you want, I don't care.  I don't always agree with how they do business either.  But if you call Jones' business model a Ponzi scheme, then every for-profit business is a Ponzi scheme.  I think some people are confused by the meaning of "Ponzi" scheme.  For the record, a Ponzi scheme has nothing to do with owners making money on the backs of their employees.  To compare what Enron was doing to Jones is just idiotic.  Enron was basically hiding liabilities in offshore LLC's, and siphoning money from the firm.  Explain to me exactly how Jones is doing anything remotely close to that?
 
Drinking 4 cups of coffee and eating yellowjackets from the corner gas station is no way to start your day B24....
 
 !!
 
What's a Yellowjacket?  It sounds like a southern thing.
B24- They are the energy pills that truckers take to stay awake....they are always at the counter at the BP that I stop at on the way in to the office.... I guess it is a regional thing...

BigCheese's picture
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Good to hear. Next obvious question is...
 
What bracket are you in for the trimester?
 
Here is or at least was the Jones accounting miracle called the bonus system. Let's assume the bonus bracket was 25% here is the breakdown. If an FA had 100K of bonusable profit the breakdown is as follows...
 
20%- 5%   First 20K generates 1K bonus
20%-10%  Second 20K of bonusable profit generates  2K
20%--15% Third 20K of bonusable profit generates 3K
20%-20% Fourth 20K of bonusable profit generates 4K
20%-25% Remaining bonusable profit genrates 5K
 
Total bonus is 15K out of 100K bonusable profit. When management say the bonus bracket is 25% its really 15%...again very fuzzy math in my book. They also receive 60% of the gross and then keep 85% of the additional profit that they are willing to share with the FA.
 
And when one factors in the extraordinary high expenses that reps can't control (still paying 1300 month for your technology?) that comes out before the bonusable profit it didn't take me long to realize the cards were stacked against me.
 
The numbers above represent a 600k producer netting 240K before bonus for a reference. In this example, the bonus if annualized is 18.75% of compensation. This is why the bonuses had to be re-instated because the producers have been subsdizing the money losing operations of Jones.

Hey Kool-Aid's picture
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BigCheese wrote:Good to hear. Next obvious question is...
 
What bracket are you in for the trimester?
 
Here is or at least was the Jones accounting miracle called the bonus system. Let's assume the bonus bracket was 25% here is the breakdown. If an FA had 100K of bonusable profit the breakdown is as follows...
 
20%- 5%   First 20K generates 1K bonus
20%-10%  Second 20K of bonusable profit generates  2K
20%--15% Third 20K of bonusable profit generates 3K
20%-20% Fourth 20K of bonusable profit generates 4K
20%-25% Remaining bonusable profit genrates 5K
 
Total bonus is 15K out of 100K bonusable profit. When management say the bonus bracket is 25% its really 15%...again very fuzzy math in my book. They also receive 60% of the gross and then keep 85% of the additional profit that they are willing to share with the FA.
 
And when one factors in the extraordinary high expenses that reps can't control (still paying 1300 month for your technology?) that comes out before the bonusable profit it didn't take me long to realize the cards were stacked against me.
 
The numbers above represent a 600k producer netting 240K before bonus for a reference. In this example, the bonus if annualized is 18.75% of compensation. This is why the bonuses had to be re-instated because the producers have been subsdizing the money losing operations of Jones.
 
No doubt the bonus structure is tough for a middle of the road producer...it is good for the very large producer and good for the newbie.  Good for the newbie because all their expenses are paid and they get some salary to start etc...at the expense of the middle of the road brokers.  Had a buddy of mine leave Jones for just that reason.  When I hit that point, who knows, maybe I will too.  However, there are plenty of pluses with Jones that make people stay and you can bash all you want, but for some people there is no better place to be.  Money isn't everything to some...as long as you are making a good living.  Someone very wise once told me...you may make a big chunk more money by going to work for (fill in name here)....the bad news is, then you have to work for them!  That includes, LPL, RJ and any other Indy shop.  While you are not truly "working for them"...you need to deal with them on a regular basis.  Again, there is a distinct posibility that in 5 years I could be with one of them, I wouldn't rule that out, however, at this point Jones is the only place I want to be! 

BigCheese's picture
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Hey KMan-
 
The distinction is they work for me. I can fire them anytime (it would be a huge pain in the buttocks) and take my clients somewhere else. LPL is not FA friendly, due to staff cuts, and lack of industry tenure...Jones is better. As Spiff says I pay for it...and he is right.
 
The only question I have for you is how do you construe anything I said previously as bashing? Was it my reference to fuzzy math? Or how about the comment that cards being stacked against me? I am serious about this. I have wondered for a long time if Jones reps especially on this forum are very sensitive. Is there anything that I said that isn't correct?

noggin's picture
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Nope.....

Weddle Me's picture
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How do you get a one armed ex-jones Indy retard out of a tree?

Hey Kool-Aid's picture
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BigCheese wrote:Hey KMan-
 
The distinction is they work for me. I can fire them anytime (it would be a huge pain in the buttocks) and take my clients somewhere else. LPL is not FA friendly, due to staff cuts, and lack of industry tenure...Jones is better. As Spiff says I pay for it...and he is right.
 
The only question I have for you is how do you construe anything I said previously as bashing? Was it my reference to fuzzy math? Or how about the comment that cards being stacked against me? I am serious about this. I have wondered for a long time if Jones reps especially on this forum are very sensitive. Is there anything that I said that isn't correct?
 
Cheesey -
 
I am not overly sensitive, I just went and read some of your earlier posts and found several that could be constituted as "bashing"...although you will say they are all true, but the truth is that you are so far removed from EDJ that you don't know what is true now and what isn't.  And of course Noggin and bspears will chime in and back up everything you say.  In reality, I can leave Jones and take my book with me as well, albeit with a bit more difficulty legally speaking.  I know lots of ex Jones guys who took 85% of their book when they left.  I will tell you...no question about it there are lots of negatives about every firm, but Jones has greatly improved in the 3 years I have been here...from email (lol..way overdue and still kinda sh*tty)....to Advisory Solutions (great product but still need to add stocks)...to BondNet (coming this year and looks awesome!)...Anytime since i've been here that FA's ask for a specific improvment be it technology, product or service...Management has responded and if it hasn't been changed it is in the works.  I give a lot of credit to Weddle, he has this firm bursting its way into the 1990's.......but be sure...he will have us up to speed and even ahead of the game over the next several years.  I just think we keep beating the same dead horse, Jones, wires and Indy are very different animals and cannot be compared. What might be a perfect setup for one Broker is a total ClusterF*&^% for another.  It makes for fun arguments on here, but when people are making bold negative statements about a firm they left 3 -4 even 5 or more years ago, it's just ridiculous.  Just my opinion!
 
 
 

BigCheese's picture
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Ok Kman-
 
Here is another arrow in your bashing quiver...
 
I am placing a large second-to-die policy next week, a sizable estate to protect 8.5M. Premium is 127K. I get 90% of the target which is 100k or so gross. At Jones I would get 36K and the general agency at Jones would take another 10% off the top before your 60/40 split equalling the 36K. One ticket...difference s 64K!!!
 
That's probably more than Spiff or you net in a year. (That's bashing!!!) They are hosing you for the benefit of them. Someday you guys will wake up and smell the coffee.

eddjones654's picture
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How much did the GP of the Great White North make?

Kaa luu kukuu?? (or whatever those hosers sang)

SupermanFan's picture
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Hey, back to the origin of this post, HAS ANYONE EVER HEARD ANY "REAL NUMBERS" BEHIND HOW MUCH EJ SPENDS ON CANADA AND ENGLAND
 
I looked at the 10k report from the origin of the post but there's no dollar details- only conceptual statements.
 
Anyone ever heard a GP utter any dollar details?  I would think GPs might know a little sumpin-sumpin about this.    Any ex-GPs out there?   Bartow?  Wasler?  Fess?  Gilman?  Roger Thomas?  Dougie da gwoff gwoff gwoff guy?  Oh that's right you're still a GP just an ex MP. 

voltmoie's picture
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Go away .. you're a loser.

Grosspayout's picture
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This just in.....Weddle has just announced that the Jones UK operation has been sold.

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BigCheese's picture
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 So if RR is acccurate and Canada and the UK represented 300M out of 3.8B why would anyone think they wouldn't put Canada up for sale?
 
WHEN YOU LOSE MONEY, and its a small revenue generator, WHY KEEP IT?

B24's picture
B24
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Obviously, Weddle is not going to come out and state that they are shopping Canada. Maybe they are and we just don't know it. Just like we didn't know they were shopping UK.

I only see three answers: they are shopping Canada, they think they can eventually be profitable going on the same course, or they will do something dramatic to improve it's profitability (i.e. use multi-FA offices, consolidate it's home office operations, etc.). Canada probably produces $150mm. That's maybe $3-4B in AUM. That's no small operation. I think they are shopping it, although I have not really followed it's growth trajectory. I don't know how quickly it is growing, if at all, on a net basis.

BigCheese's picture
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The fourth option is to name Spiff in charge, and then everything will be fine again. He can tell others about the good ol days of Bachman et al.
Of course Volt will be named "turtle" as part of his entourage.
 
And B...well you will be the sounding board of reason.
 
(notice volt no disparaging remarks about YOUR wife)
 
Have a great weekend...gents.

voltmoie's picture
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Have you seen the chicks turtle is banging?  I'd be honored.Never said anything negative about your wife Cheese, except you should give her more attention than you give the Jones 10-k. 

Mr.Blonde's picture
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http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2009/10/19/daily48.html

Says this new firm employs 500 in 10 offices, how many of those Jones offices are going to be consolidated. How do you all see that happening if Canada is next?

BigCheese's picture
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Never said anything negative about your wife Cheese, except you should give her more attention than you give the Jones 10-k. 
Volt-
 
I am a renaissance kind of guy. I can multi-task!

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