PROBLEM WITH THE WAR

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FreeLunch's picture
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The problem with the War is 90% of the Damn Democrats are screaming, "We are not going to win it!  It's worthless!  Bring them home!"
Face it - They are there and HOW ABOUT A LITTLE SUPPORT.
Bash Bush all you want, call him an idiot but SADDAM is Dead.  We're fighting terrorism.  Our COUNTRY IS VULNERABLE.
And the Democrats main concern is sharing?????
 

troll's picture
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Part of me wishes for another attack on our soil, just to shut those mother f**kers up.

FreeLunch's picture
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It's ridiculous.   I feel sorry that all of the soldiers have to listen to this GARBAGE.
I wouldn't vote for Hillary or Obama even if Borat was running for president.

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FreeLunch wrote:
It's ridiculous.   I feel sorry that all of the soldiers have to listen to this GARBAGE.
I wouldn't vote for Hillary or Obama even if Borat was running for president.

Obama is a muslim and Hillary is a muslim lover.

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1. That's irrelevant.2. It's keep the soldiers there and keep political instability that harms both civilians and soldiers, or bring them back and admit it was a bad idea in the first place.

FreeLunch's picture
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Amazon wrote:1. That's irrelevant.2. It's keep the soldiers there and keep political instability that harms both civilians and soldiers, or bring them back and admit it was a bad idea in the first place.
YOU ARE UNBELIEVABLY WRONG.
If we leave now, there will be the biggest genecide you've ever seen.  You know nothing about the war - all that you've seen is the media's representation. 
Bring them Back and admit it was a bad idea in the first place?  Is that the American way you phucking idiot?
"Well, bring 'em back.  The damn Commys think its mean.."  The majority of the political instability ARISES from the public outcrys of "this just isn't right."   -   the goal should be let's show these damn terrorist idiots that the U.S. isn't to be phucked around with.
We pull out now, that sets a damn presedence that'll never be forgotten.  You ARE an IDIOT.

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Bobby Hull wrote:Part of me wishes for another attack on our soil, just to shut those mother f**kers up. Couldn't resist this one.Man Hull, now you sound like the Democrat. While your at it go vandalize some HUMMERS with your Green Peace pals. Be careful what you wish for; you might actually have to grow a pair and pick up a weapon. Don't ask don't tell brotha.My Guard Unit is deploying to Iraq early next year.In between missions I'll be sure to post...

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So, you can stay there. Then you've got political instability because you can't force a democracy, you've got the debt growing ever larger, the death count growing ever larger, and you've also got an increasing amount of hatred from certain factions.Alternatively, leave and let them work it out (It might be bloody, but it isn't exactly calm there right now, is it?). This keeps the cost down and the soldier death count down. I don't care what you think the "American way" is; I'm Canadian anyways. All I can do is tell you that it is within America's best interests to leave.

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Amazon wrote:So, you can stay there. Then you've got political instability because you can't force a democracy, you've got the debt growing ever larger, the death count growing ever larger, and you've also got an increasing amount of hatred from certain factions.Alternatively, leave and let them work it out (It might be bloody, but it isn't exactly calm there right now, is it?). This keeps the cost down and the soldier death count down. I don't care what you think the "American way" is; I'm Canadian anyways. All I can do is tell you that it is within America's best interests to leave.
yeah but pusses like Hull want another Vietnam b/c they're not the ones that have to go fight in it. They say dumb things like "we wish there was another 9-11." i'm sure the twin tower victim's family are pulling for another attack too.

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Amazon wrote:So, you can stay there. Then you've got political instability because you can't force a democracy, you've got the debt growing ever larger, the death count growing ever larger, and you've also got an increasing amount of hatred from certain factions.Alternatively, leave and let them work it out are you serious? (It might be bloody, but it isn't exactly calm there right now, is it?). This keeps the cost down and the soldier death count down. I don't care what you think the "American way" is; I'm Canadian anyways. All I can do is tell you that it is within America's best interests to leave.We really don't need a Canadians opinion.  Just be glad that you are harmless and we feel bad for you.
 
I truly understand based on your response that you are not informed about what is going on.  You are going to have to trust me on this one.  We can't just leave.  We are on the hunt.   We are doing the entire world a favor, and making a sacrifice for all of humanity.

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Ya, I'll set this straight right now: I respect those that do go there and risk their lives, I just think they shouldn't have to in this particular situation.

FreeLunch's picture
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There is no one else to do it.  What you've got to understand is that most countries are walking on Pins and Needles.
Next?  IRAN.  They are dangerous as hell.  What then?  Do we "let someone work it out?"
We've got to set an example.  Sure, the cost is a problem, But the USA can tax.  I'll pay higher taxes to make sure I don't die by a terrorist bomb.

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No, you aren't. Osama and most terrorist organizations can run into a cave and wait you out.

Naqoyqatsi's picture
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Amazon wrote:Ya, I'll set this straight right now: I respect those that do go there and risk their lives, I just think they shouldn't have to in this particular situation.
Agreed.
i get orders, i deploy. do i agree with the war? yes. the way its handled; no. but that's all part of duty.
anyway, i get annoyed when people like Hull assume someone's a
democrat just because they didn't vote for bush. trust me, a lot of
soldiers didn't. we're not just voting for president, we're voting for
our chain of  command, and there was no one on that last ticket that
really displayed anything other than pseudo-balls. well, that and bush's
deer in the headlights look that he always has.

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Amazon wrote:1. That's irrelevant.2. It's keep the soldiers there
and keep political instability that harms both civilians and soldiers,
or bring them back and admit it was a bad idea in the first place.

And then what happens?

Naqoyqatsi's picture
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FreeLunch wrote:There is no one else to do it.  What you've got to understand is that most countries are walking on Pins and Needles.
Next?  IRAN.  They are dangerous as hell.  What then?  Do we "let someone work it out?"
We've got to set an example.  Sure, the cost is a problem, But the USA can tax.  I'll pay higher taxes to make sure I don't die by a terrorist bomb.Problem is, everything's too PC now. 40 years ago we would have drop bombs on both countries and had them looking like modern day germany in no time. now, not so much.

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Amazon wrote:So, you can stay there. Then you've got political instability because you can't force a democracy, you've got the debt growing ever larger, the death count growing ever larger, and you've also got an increasing amount of hatred from certain factions.Alternatively, leave and let them work it out (It might be bloody, but it isn't exactly calm there right now, is it?). This keeps the cost down and the soldier death count down. I don't care what you think the "American way" is; I'm Canadian anyways. All I can do is tell you that it is within America's best interests to leave.
Body count? The death toll is 1 month in Vietnam or 1 week in WWII.
The liberal media makes those #'s seem incredible but they are tiny in comparason to any other war we have fought. War sucks and death is part of it. Since when did joing the military ensure your safety? When you join you are making a great sacrifice for our country and our people and that is your choice, nobody is forcing your hand. If we were in the middle of a draft I may express a different view. They need to remove the media from Iraq and let them get the job done quickly. It is incredibly dangerous for people to undermine our power by openly protesting the war. They say they are supporting our troops but in reality they making it tougher for them to get the job done and come home.

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FreeLunch wrote:We pull out now, that sets a damn presedence that'll never be forgotten.I think the precedent was with Korea and Vietnam.Naqoyqatsi wrote:  40 years ago we would have drop bombs on both
countries and had them looking like modern day germany in no time. now,
not so much. 40 years ago was 1967, we never dropped a bomb on Vietnam, we just left.

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12345 wrote: It is incredibly dangerous for people to undermine our power by openly protesting the war. They say they are supporting our troops but in reality they making it tougher for them to get the job done and come home.Yea I never liked the First Amendment either, mostly if I don't agree with what someone is saying.  Of course if I do agree with what they are saying I'm very much in favor of it.

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I'm sure the families of dead soldiers take solace in knowing that the body count is relatively low...But still, do you think any human life and the anguish the inhabitants of that area are going through is worth it?

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Amazon wrote:I'm sure the families of dead soldiers take solace in knowing that the body count is relatively low...But still, do you think any human life and the anguish the inhabitants of that area are going through is worth it?
I really do not think that the point of this war is JUST FOR the inhabitants of IRAQ.  It is a BIGGER issue than that.  We are trying to set an example that terrorism will not be tolerated.
Where would this world be now, 5 years later if Saddam was not dead.  Where would we be.  do you think this world would be a safer place?  You truly do not understand that the soldiers are not just fighting for IRAQ freedom.  They are fighting for the world.

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Naqoyqatsi wrote: Amazon wrote:So, you can stay there. Then you've got political instability because you can't force a democracy, you've got the debt growing ever larger, the death count growing ever larger, and you've also got an increasing amount of hatred from certain factions.Alternatively, leave and let them work it out (It might be bloody, but it isn't exactly calm there right now, is it?). This keeps the cost down and the soldier death count down. I don't care what you think the "American way" is; I'm Canadian anyways. All I can do is tell you that it is within America's best interests to leave.yeah but pusses like Hull want another Vietnam b/c they're not the ones that have to go fight in it. They say dumb things like "we wish there was another 9-11." i'm sure the twin tower victim's family are pulling for another attack too.
I may be wrong but having observed his communication style, I took Hull's point to mean, there is always the possibility of another terror attack in the background, and what we are doing now is a proactive attempt to stay in control, from a position of strength, and many Americans just take for granted the relative stability of the past few years. I don't get where you see him as being  pussy.

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As far as having to go fight in it, that's dangerous and tragic. Looks like the whole thing is poorly executed. But it is a career choice, and if nobody wants to do it, or take some kind of (moral) stand, looks like we can just plan on becoming a nation of fundamentalist Muslim pussys.

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I still don't get how the Islamic religion is relevant... Terrorists just misuse it to their own ends; real followers of Islam aren't allowed to do such... things.In closing, I'd like to quote one of the Founding Fathers (forgot which one): "You can't force democracy.".

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Maybe you can't force democracy, but you can't just sit back and watch a Dictator kills all of his people.
That's why we're stuck.  From a logical perspective, it is not winnable, but from an emotional perspective its possible.
 

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You're right Amazon, not all muslims are terrorists...but unfortunately all terrorists are muslims.

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Not really, Trsyn. At the moment any terrorist of consequence is a muslim, but I doubt there's a single religion that is not guilty of having some... fanatics.To FreeLunch: Yes, you can. It was done for a good while, and continues to happen now. Go try Kim Jong-Il... the one that actually said he DID have WMD.

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We all have our opinions, the reality is there is just no solution to this problem. We pull out, and it becomes a launching pad for terrorism that will reach around the entire western world. We stay, and more and more of our guys die, with no chance of winnning. Honestly, we are in a no win situation, with no right answer. I fear that what happened in Glasgow today is just the beginning of the spread of terrorism to the west. A matter of time, before it returns to our soil. I fear it is also a matter of time before IRAN explodes and somehow, I am not EXACTLY sure how, really causes a big problem. And with our troops tied up, in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will be powerless to do anythiing. Can you imagine where this could lead/ A no win war, with a U.S. without the manpower to control its own destiny, and Gd forbid, no choice but to turn the middle east into another Hiroshima?
Its ghastly and frightening, but not impossible.
One things for sure, most of the world population that is alive today, will be living with this for the rest of their lives. 
 

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pratoman wrote:
We all have our opinions, the reality is there is just no solution to this problem. We pull out, and it becomes a launching pad for terrorism that will reach around the entire western world. We stay, and more and more of our guys die, with no chance of winnning. Honestly, we are in a no win situation, with no right answer. I fear that what happened in Glasgow today is just the beginning of the spread of terrorism to the west. A matter of time, before it returns to our soil. I fear it is also a matter of time before IRAN explodes and somehow, I am not EXACTLY sure how, really causes a big problem. And with our troops tied up, in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will be powerless to do anythiing. Can you imagine where this could lead/ A no win war, with a U.S. without the manpower to control its own destiny, and Gd forbid, no choice but to turn the middle east into another Hiroshima?
Its ghastly and frightening, but not impossible.
One things for sure, most of the world population that is alive today, will be living with this for the rest of their lives. 
 

Man Pratoman!  You are so right on many points.
My Bashing of Democrats was maybe not justified, however, it is the people that want to be PASSIVE and act like we can't make a difference that pisses me off.
When I talked to a soldier who has come back from Iraq, one thing he told me made me think of the vietnam situation.
All those guys look the same from the surface.  Nobody on the outside knows who the enemy is, UNLESS the IRAQIS "snitch" - and then they are jeopardizing their own lives.  Everyone is making a sacrifice, but we can't leave.  At the same time, we can't leave our country vulnerable.  Brutal situation.

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Well, Hiroshima's a city, while the Middle East is comprised of multiple nations... If the US were to try and nuke the whole thing odds are a nuclear winter would ensue, with a good chance of a global catastrophe. 

troll's picture
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Naqoyqatsi wrote: Bobby Hull wrote:Part of me wishes for another attack on our soil, just to shut those mother f**kers up. Couldn't resist this one.Man Hull, now you sound like the Democrat. While your at it go vandalize some HUMMERS with your Green Peace pals. Be careful what you wish for; you might actually have to grow a pair and pick up a weapon. Don't ask don't tell brotha.My Guard Unit is deploying to Iraq early next year.In between missions I'll be sure to post...
Son, I make Rush Limbaugh look like John Kerry.

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Amazon wrote: At the moment any terrorist of consequence is a muslim, but I doubt there's a single religion that is not guilty of having some... fanatics.
 
Call me when elements of those other religions start flying planes into buildings and preaching that killing non-believers is the path to nirvana. The refusal to the see the enemy for who he is is a major part of the problem.

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Who is Ron Paul??? maybe he can resolve this problem... and many others.....
google ron paul or go to ronpaul2008.com
Give me liberty or give me death!

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FreeLunch wrote:
I really do not think that the point of this war is JUST FOR the inhabitants of IRAQ.  It is a BIGGER issue than that.  We are trying to set an example that terrorism will not be tolerated.
Where would this world be now, 5 years later if Saddam was not dead.  Where would we be.  do you think this world would be a safer place?  You truly do not understand that the soldiers are not just fighting for IRAQ freedom.  They are fighting for the world.

The world is a safer place today?
We are fighting terrorist? Where? Certainly not in Iraq.
Unfortunately for us, the world, and every person whose blood has been shed on Iraqi soil the smartest guys were not in the room the day the towers were attacked.
Fortunately-At the end of the Gulf War many Americans criticized Bush 1 for not finishing the job getting Saddam and completely destroying the Iraqi army. At that time, we did have some of the smartest guys in the room to guide us. They realized that killing Saddam and destroying his army would destabilize the country. That the religious tribal factions that make up the country would then fight for control and that Iraq's neighbors, especially Iran, would move to control the region. They realized that the 500,000 man army we had in place wasn't big enough to deal with the consequence of such an action.
Unfortunately- The Wolfowitz Doctrine outlining a new world order and embracing pre-emptive military strikes was adopted by Bush 2 and has become the Bush Doctrine. The deep thinkers who knew better either weren't there or weren't able to stop the blunderers from making one of history's most colossal mistakes. And here we sit, mired in a civil war, with our borders wide open, and terrorist running free world wide.
We cannot fight an Idealogy with an army.
 
 
 

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yes, I saw that frontline episode also.

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BondGuy wrote: <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
The world is a safer place today?
I guess it was "safer" before we fought back...even in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Afghanistan. That was true before the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, in fact every war I can think of. That’s not the same as saying the world won’t be a safer place after we’ve won.
BondGuy wrote:We are fighting terrorist? Where? Certainly not in Iraq.
Al Qaeda is in Iraq, they say the central battle ground is Iraq. I'd take their word for it. They also say we're a paper tiger and will run in the face of casualties. They say following our retreat, they’ll create a new safe zone/training ground for themselves. I hope we don't prove them right.
 BondGuy wrote:
We cannot fight an Idealogy with an army.
 Ask the Imperialists in Japan and the Fascists in German and Italy if they agree..
 

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The Salem witches survived the Spanish Inquisition, the Jews survived the holocaust, and the extremist Muslims will survive the War on terror.

trisyn's picture
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I cannot believe you would classify extremist Muslim terrorists with two other groups who were wrongfully persecuted. People like you are the reason we may never win the war against terrorism.

Amazon's picture
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The fact they were wrongfully discriminated doesn't change the idea of the argument that ideologies rarely die at the end of a barrel.

troll's picture
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Amazon wrote:The <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Salem witches survived the Spanish Inquisition, ...<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
 Buy a history book, please... hint; start by looking at the centuries and continents of those two events…
Amazon wrote: the Jews survived the holocaust, and the extremist Muslims will survive the War on terror.
 Hmmmm, you're equating the Jews, a people in their entirety, with the segment of Islam infected with radicalism? You realize the Holocaust was an attempt to exterminate and entire group of people, while the poorly named “war on terror” is about defending modernity from a radical fringe that would erase it and replace it with a 15th Century existence, right?
Back to your “all religions” post, it’s basic moral equivalency, and as misguided as your logic above.
 

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Amazon wrote:The fact they were wrongfully discriminated doesn't change the idea of the argument that ideologies rarely die at the end of a barrel.
The Jews and the Salem witches were "ideologies"?

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Ideology: A relatively coherent system of values, beliefs, or
ideas shared by some social group and often taken for granted as
natural or inherently true.

troll's picture
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Amazon wrote:Ideology: A relatively coherent system of values, beliefs, or ideas shared by some social group and often taken for granted as natural or inherently true.
 
So, again, you figure the Jews and the Salem witches were ideologies? Do you understand the difference between a group and their "values, beliefs, or ideas" held by them?
 
I've seen some wtisted logic here before, but you may have set a new standard.
 
Again, call me when one of those other religions you mentioned earlier has a faction that's flying planes into buildings and/or ponfiticates that murdering non-believers is the path to heaven. Until then all the "every religion" claims in the world don't mean squat.

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LOL...I overlooked Amazon's first statement. I had no idea Salem was in Spain. Kinda throws out your credibilitiy right out the window.

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Too true... I meant the Salem witch trials....You get the idea of what I meant.@Mike: A religion is an ideology. That makes Judaism an ideology. The holocaust is one of many attempts to silence an ideology, whether it be burning a neighbor or proposing world domination.

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trisyn wrote:I cannot believe you would classify extremist Muslim terrorists with two other groups who were wrongfully persecuted. People like you are the reason we may never win the war against terrorism.
To win the war against terrorist we'd actually have to direct our efforts against terrorist. We're not doing that right now. As it stands, as well intentioned as we may be, we are viewed as the bad guys in the middle east. Please note the lack of a rose peddle greeting after the fall of Hussein. It is this lack of a rose peddle greeting that concisely shows our arrogant and complete misunderstanding of the people in this region.
Fighting terrorism is about hearts and minds, not guns and bombs. Terrorism is tool used to force political change. Want to win against terrorism? Show them that our way is better than their way. Pointing the gun that is the U.S. Military at people and telling them "It's our way or no way", as Iraq has shown us,  isn't the best way to get that done.
And those who say we are fighting terrorist in Iraq are right. Terrorist are among those we are fighting in Iraq. They weren't there when we got there, but they're there now. In fighting the war on terrorism we have unwittingly created a terrorist state. Our generation of Americans will surely go down in American history as the dumbest asses who ever lived.
Think about this: Their side wants everybody to live in the seventh century in shackles. Our side wants to give everybody a BMW, Ipod, and flatscreen TV with a life lived in complete freedom. And still we are losing. That's how bad our leaders are. How could we lose this?
It will get worse. Our borders are wide open.
 
 
 

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mikebutler222 wrote:

 Ask the Imperialists in Japan and the Fascists in German and Italy if they agree..
 

We invaded another nation. Who's the imperialist now?

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lack of a rose peddle greeting
What are you trying to say.   The Iraqis didn't have any  pink bicycles?

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<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 
Amazon wrote:Too true... I meant the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Salem witch trials....You get the idea of what I meant.
 
 
Actually, the Salem witches didn’t survive the Salem witch trial, but that’s the least of the problems with you poor analogy. Amazon wrote:@Mike: A religion is an ideology. That makes Judaism an ideology. The holocaust is one of many attempts to silence an ideology, whether it be burning a neighbor or proposing world domination.
 
Lunacy. The holocaust was an attempt to exterminate and entire ethnic/religious group, millions of people. The “War on terror” is an attempt to end the violence of a faction of radical Islam. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.
 

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BondGuy wrote: Fighting terrorism is about hearts and minds, not guns and bombs. Terrorism is tool used to force political change. Want to win against terrorism? Show them that our way is better than their way. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
 
Ok, I'm a member of Al Qaeda, give me your evaluator speech.   
 

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BondGuy wrote:And those who say we are fighting terrorist in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Iraq are right. Terrorist are among those we are fighting in Iraq. They weren't there when we got there, but they're there now. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Actually, that’s not true. Not only was Al Qaeda present in Iraq before we invaded, the terrorists that plotted the first WTC bombing in 1993 and the hijackers of the Achille Lauro , murderers of American Leon Klinghoffer, though Saddam’s Iraq was a great place to retire.
 
BondGuy wrote: Think about this: Their side wants everybody to live in the seventh century in shackles. Our side wants to give everybody a BMW, Ipod, and flatscreen TV with a life lived in complete freedom. And still we are losing. That's how bad our leaders are. How could we lose this?
What a profound misunderstanding of the enemy. And it’s funny you should make that suggestion while being critical of the war in Iraq, since giving them that freedom, the BMW, the iPod, etc, is what was behind overthrowing a murderous dictator.
To those who would kill us (and they’ve been plotting and carrying out attacks against us long before your favorite political target came to office) your BMW, iPod, flatscreen TV and what you call “freedom” is exactly why they want to kill you. The fact that your women go unveiled, that your decedent culture has infected theirs, your music, your non-belief, your support for “monkey” Jews in their homeland, those are the reasons they want to kill you. They, the radical Islamists, are convinced that you and I are a cancer on Earth, and the only way they’ll get their faithful back right with Allah is to kill us. No compromises, no debate, no negotiation.
You make the mistake you claim others have made, of overlaying Western attitudes over an Islamic culture. It’s just that lack of understanding of what motivates the radical Islamic faction that is the real risk to our safety.

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