How much of the 40% do we really keep- EDJ

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kodakmak's picture
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Joined: 2010-12-01

OK, I have made through the training, eval/grad, received my can/sell date, and taken over an office. And now I have to ask a really stupid question. I have been so focused on becoming what I wanted to be that I never stopped to ask how the compensation works! I know 36-40% is the magic number, and I think it is based on gross production. Am I right? How much of that 36-40% do I really pocket? Aside from Uncle Sam's cut, what deductions should I expect to see?I feel like a fool for having to ask this question, but I am willing to risk the ridicule to get an answer! Thanks,Kodak

LoveThatAppleTech's picture
Joined: 2010-10-08

The only deductions would be insurance, taxes, long distance calls and postage . You do have to pay for all office expenses except printer supplies. But you can control that to some extent.  You control mailings and advertising. Like a vet said once it would have been better off buying a new pair of shoes rather than advertising.

SuperMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-09-18

I estimate I pocket 19% of every dollar of commission earned - that is strickly before office exp. and anything extra you opt to do. Those numbers are very flexable.  If you are new however that number will be much larger because of milestone and new account bonus.

kodakmak's picture
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Joined: 2010-12-01

Thanks guys! Your help on this is greatly appreciated!I'll let you know how I do.Kodak

Nova02's picture
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Joined: 2010-06-28

Please don't take this the wrong way, but just to understand... at EJ, you are on a 40% payout AND you have expenses to pay for like long distance phone calls, postage, insurance, etc.?  If guess having an office/book of business given to you in many cases to manage is worth it to some extent, but that payout seems really low for someone effectively managing their own "firm" and office, so to speak.  The wire payouts, typically seen as low, are anywhere from 38-45% depending on your production level, but you effectively have all of the "expenses" paid for.  As an indy, you pay those expenses, but your payout starts at around 90%.  What's the allure to EJ?  

lovindaindy's picture
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Joined: 2009-05-07

Nova02 wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way, but just to understand... at EJ, you are on a 40% payout AND you have expenses to pay for like long distance phone calls, postage, insurance, etc.?  If guess having an office/book of business given to you in many cases to manage is worth it to some extent, but that payout seems really low for someone effectively managing their own "firm" and office, so to speak.  The wire payouts, typically seen as low, are anywhere from 38-45% depending on your production level, but you effectively have all of the "expenses" paid for.  As an indy, you pay those expenses, but your payout starts at around 90%.  What's the allure to EJ?  The green accent wall is money.But seriously, the allure of EJ is that you get to pretend to be your own boss and have your own one person office without someone breathing down your neck.  At least, that's what they tell you.  I'm not sure how much of a premium that is for most people, but to me, it makes more sense to go indy. Then there is the argument that you have to start somewhere and EJ is as good a place as any.

Greenbacks2's picture
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Joined: 2010-03-03

19% wow superman! That is sad.

BigFirepower's picture
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Joined: 2010-07-09

Sad? Dang, after my wife, kids, and others are done, I'm typically lucky to have 20 bucks in my pocket!

SuperMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-09-18

19% is after office exp., taxes, 401k, ins., etc.   Really ... how much does an indy clear net/net - 25%? 30%?  I can't think it's much more than that.

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B24
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Joined: 2008-07-08

The percentage all depends on what your production level is.  Someone doing 500K is going to pocket a larger % than someone doing 200K.  Why?  First, the larger porducer will get bigger bonuses, larger profit sharing contributions, and their deductions (office expenses & benefits) will be a lower % of their gross.Having said that, someone that is 3-4 years out, doing like 200K of production will probably pocket about 32-35% (before taxes, and not including 401K contributions, since it's YOUR money).  Another big wildcard ois your benefits.  Jones covers like 30% of your health care premium (I think), so depending on your family situation and whether or not you need benefits at all, that will make a difference.But assuming you use NO benefits, and make NO 401K contribution, the operating expenses can be very minimal (I spend MAYBE $100 a month on supplies and stamps, but generally far less).  But you also pay for most of your marketing, so that's another biug wildcard.At the end of the day, figure 32-35% of gross before taxes, marketing, and office supplies for a low-ish producer.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

This is a really difficult conversation to have because it's different for everyone.  I'd say 19% is a little on the low side, but not by much.  Just a rough estimate of mine for the last year was about 22% went to my bank account.  But, I also put money in my HSA and 401K, I buy supplemental insurance on my wife and kids, and do some other things that other folks might not do.  Then you get into bonuses, profit sharing, div trips, etc and what you keep starts creeping up.  And if you factor in new account bonuses, milestone bonuses, subsidized insurance and some other things newer FAs get that us old guys don't, well, you should keep more than I do on a percentage basis.  I'm sure it's not what a lot of the indy guys keep, but that's a whole different conversation. 

Nova02's picture
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Joined: 2010-06-28

lovindaindy wrote:Nova02 wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way, but just to understand... at EJ, you are on a 40% payout AND you have expenses to pay for like long distance phone calls, postage, insurance, etc.?  If guess having an office/book of business given to you in many cases to manage is worth it to some extent, but that payout seems really low for someone effectively managing their own "firm" and office, so to speak.  The wire payouts, typically seen as low, are anywhere from 38-45% depending on your production level, but you effectively have all of the "expenses" paid for.  As an indy, you pay those expenses, but your payout starts at around 90%.  What's the allure to EJ?  The green accent wall is money.But seriously, the allure of EJ is that you get to pretend to be your own boss and have your own one person office without someone breathing down your neck.  At least, that's what they tell you.  I'm not sure how much of a premium that is for most people, but to me, it makes more sense to go indy. Then there is the argument that you have to start somewhere and EJ is as good a place as any. Therein lies the paradox with our industry; it almost forces you to start with a wire or regional firm before going independent and you have to put up with their crap for a few years until you can swing it on your own. 

kodakmak's picture
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Joined: 2010-12-01

Nova02 wrote:Herein lies the paradox with our industry; it almost forces you to start with a wire or regional firm before going independent and you have to put up with their crap for a few years until you can swing it on your own. Amen! I do what I have to do in order to do what I love and make money doing it. I like the people I work with (my region), I like working with my BOA with relative autonomy. I liked the training I received. It is a win-win for me. 

kodakmak's picture
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Joined: 2010-12-01

Spaceman, B24,Thanks for the information... I had a great week... Took over a competitive situation, but have contacted almost everyone in my book while having a good week building my own prospects. It looks like I will lose 35%-45% of my book, but they are mostly friends and family of the old FA. book started out at 25 mil aum and will drop to 12-15. How much will this contribute to my monthly gross? Just wondering?Kodak

SuperMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-09-18

No one will know how much it will contribute to your monthly gross.  We just don't know what your book is made up of.  It's a good bet A share mutual funds and long term bonds with some stocks tossed in.  It won't do much in trails but no doubt there are some rocks to turn over in that book.  So the old FA had 15mm in friends and family?  Wish I had that!  My only advice is service the heck out of your book and don't stop prospecting.  It will be the difference between winning and losing.  Good luck.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

Your BEST clients will be the ones you create yourself.  I look at my top 25 clients and well over half of them are people that I either doorknocked or were referred to me.  Only 2 or 3 of them were already in that top 25 when I took over the branch.    When I go past my top 25 it always kind of shocks me how many clients I've created myself over the years and how little impact the original book I took over has on my current production.  Less than a third of my existing book is made up of clients I inherited.  And many of those are inactive or small accounts that I plan on Goodknighting someday in the future.  My point being, don't rely on the book you take over to be what makes you successful at Jones.  10 years out, you probably won't have too many of those folks still in your book.  Keep prospecting for those new folks.  And don't stop until you get to $50 mil.  I made the mistake of letting off the gas too soon.  If I had a do over, that's the biggest thing I'd change.   

N.D.'s picture
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Joined: 2009-07-14

Spaceman Spiff wrote:.    When I go past my top 25 it always kind of shocks me how many clients I've created myself over the years and how little impact the original book I took over has on my current production.  Less than a third of my existing book is made up of clients I inherited.  And many of those are inactive or small accounts that I plan on Goodknighting someday in the future.  How nice of you to give your crap away to a newbie... that's the Jones way huh? Or are you going to do a Legacy and a GK to the same newb?IMO, GKs are 95% worthless unless they come with an office. Having an office with just enough clients to keep you busy on rainy days is the way to go.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

Yep, that's the way it works at Jones, at Merrill, at Morgan Stanley, etc.  Do you think when an indy rep brings on a junior assistant that the new FA gets to deal with all of the vet's prime accounts?  I don't think so. I'm not sure you can do both a GKN and a Legacy plan with the same new FA.  I would think the GKN program would superced the Legacy benefits.  

N.D.'s picture
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Joined: 2009-07-14

The other places don't have the rep work out of their car/house either. I think the value is greater in an office than a GK but that is my opinion from you EJ guys descriptions of each.

SuperMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-09-18

You sound like a fool, ND.  Why comment on something you clearly have no idea about.  It's easy to see the survival rates of those that inhert assets and those that do not.  It's stagering.  19% of Jones new/news are in the business after 4 years.  The % goes up by a huge degree when someone inherts assets of any size.  GKs are only wothless to the guys who recive them and can't give credit where credit is due.

N.D.'s picture
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SuperMan wrote:You sound like a fool, ND.  Why comment on something you clearly have no idea about.  It's easy to see the survival rates of those that inhert assets and those that do not.  It's stagering.  19% of Jones new/news are in the business after 4 years.  The % goes up by a huge degree when someone inherts assets of any size.  GKs are only wothless to the guys who recive them and can't give credit where credit is due.I am speaking of what a GK w/o an office of any kind means to a newbie. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to my conclusion. Based on Spiffs comments I don't see the benefit to the new guy but I do see the benefit to Spiff. Read what Spiff wrote and I think that speaks volumes. Spaceman Spiff wrote: Your BEST clients will be the ones you create yourself.  I look at my top 25 clients and well over half of them are people that I either doorknocked or were referred to me.  Only 2 or 3 of them were already in that top 25 when I took over the branch.    When I go past my top 25 it always kind of shocks me how many clients I've created myself over the years and how little impact the original book I took over has on my current production.  Less than a third of my existing book is made up of clients I inherited.  And many of those are inactive or small accounts that I plan on Goodknighting someday in the future.    My point being, don't rely on the book you take over to be what makes you successful at Jones.  10 years out, you probably won't have too many of those folks still in your book.  Keep prospecting for those new folks.  And don't stop until you get to $50 mil.  I made the mistake of letting off the gas too soon.  If I had a do over, that's the biggest thing I'd change.  Tell me this, what did you get handed to you SuperMinge? Actually, Spiff what did you get handed to you? I guess before making an assumption on Spiffs comments I should know if he is describing an open office or a GK only or both. As being a former HO employee, I would guess he didn't get the bottom of the barrel in his region which further reiterates my point.

Nova02's picture
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Joined: 2010-06-28

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Yep, that's the way it works at Jones, at Merrill, at Morgan Stanley, etc.  Do you think when an indy rep brings on a junior assistant that the new FA gets to deal with all of the vet's prime accounts?  I don't think so. I'm not sure you can do both a GKN and a Legacy plan with the same new FA.  I would think the GKN program would superced the Legacy benefits.   I think that's really the case at any firm.  I will make a suggestion or plea, if you will, that we all do the junior FAs in our group a favor and at least educate them on the quality of those bottom book clients.  Too many naive young FAs enter the business and take over the bottom of someone's book thinking it's their golden meal ticket (not due to stupidity, but more lack of understanding and experience in our business).  Nothing wrong with culling your book, but I know when and if I ever do it myself I will be upfront with the new guy and say to him, "look - these aren't going to make your career... use them for experience, service the heck out of them, but spend 90% of your time prospecting for new clients."  PS - love the username, as I'm a big C&H fan.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Your comments just further prove SuperMan's point that you don't know what you're talking about here. I took over a small book.  Less than $10 million when I took it over and I had about $3.5 mil worth of clients that left soon after I took over.  I probably should have held out for a bigger office, but the office I took over meant almost no commute and therefore access to my family when I needed to be there.  That outweighed a few million in assets for a 45 min drive twice a day.  It wasn't the bottom of the barrell, but I didn't get handed the silver spoon.  The book I took over, BTW was from a broker who was a GKN.  So, I did get the bottom of the barrell from a vet's book in a round about sort of way.  Goodknight FAs work out of the veteran's office.   So there aren't any GKN FAs out there working from their car or kitchen.  The same with a Legacy plan.  The difference is that with a Legacy plan there aren't typically any assets that are given to them.  Often times, at least in my region, those folks take over offices that come available, but that may not be the case in other parts of the country. There absolutely is value in a new FA working out of a physical office.  Whether that be an existing office like kodak took over, or a GKN like I plan on doing some day.  Even if there aren't any assets in the office, there is an advantage to having the real estate to point prospects to for appointments.  I'm thankful that I didn't have to work from home at the beginning.  But I know of plenty of people that have proven that it can be done.   

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Nova02 wrote:Spaceman Spiff wrote:Yep, that's the way it works at Jones, at Merrill, at Morgan Stanley, etc.  Do you think when an indy rep brings on a junior assistant that the new FA gets to deal with all of the vet's prime accounts?  I don't think so. I'm not sure you can do both a GKN and a Legacy plan with the same new FA.  I would think the GKN program would superced the Legacy benefits.   I think that's really the case at any firm.  I will make a suggestion or plea, if you will, that we all do the junior FAs in our group a favor and at least educate them on the quality of those bottom book clients.  Too many naive young FAs enter the business and take over the bottom of someone's book thinking it's their golden meal ticket (not due to stupidity, but more lack of understanding and experience in our business).  Nothing wrong with culling your book, but I know when and if I ever do it myself I will be upfront with the new guy and say to him, "look - these aren't going to make your career... use them for experience, service the heck out of them, but spend 90% of your time prospecting for new clients."  PS - love the username, as I'm a big C&H fan.I had a vet tell me that the ratio should be 1 hour per week working in your office for every $1 mil you have in AUM.  So, if you took over a $10 mil book, spend 10 hours a week on the existing book and 40 hours a week building it.  Breathe when you get to $50 mil.  One of these days I'm going to paint C&H cartoon strips all over my bathroom walls here at the office.  I keep threatening to get a C&H tatoo, but I'm not sure I'm that willing to be connected with them for the rest of my life.  It's a shame Bill Watterson got fed up with the crap Universal was putting him through.  He is one of the best there will ever be.   

kodakmak's picture
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Joined: 2010-12-01

Thanks for all the wisdom, guys! I have no reservations about taking over this office... It is a VERY established office in a very good market. I know I can't rely on the existing book, but the experience I have obtained (just from two weeks) with the "old" clients is phenomenal! I am looking forward to a future here. Too bad I have to drive 25 mins to work! Kodak

SuperMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-09-18

new/new ... but I would have loved to have had a GK and an office to work out of. 

N.D.'s picture
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Joined: 2009-07-14

Kudos to you superman for going it alone.

To you and spiff, I think nova summed it up for me. GKs should be for rainy days when door knocking is most difficult.

Also to spiff, I said your value was in the office not the book in it. I have read thread after thread on here especially in the archives about how GKs should have the disclaimer of "buyer beware"

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

I think most of them know that the assets they get are the ones their GKN FA doesn't want.  A lot of the ones that we've had in our region have been GK2s, which are only $5 million.  Most of them say that the only value they saw in the program was getting to work with a veteran FA 5 days a week.  I think if I were to do it over again, I'd have chosen to do a GKN plan rather than just take over an office.  Unless it was a $40 non-competitive situation.  That's what I tell HQ folks who ask me about going into production. 

BigFirepower's picture
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Joined: 2010-07-09

When I had a huge book at the bank, 1100 hh, 120m in assets...If I'd have given away the bottom 20m, even 30m of that book, I'd have killed the poor fellow that got those assets. I'd worked over the small accounts for 9 yrs, WITH a licensed assistant/junior partner too. It got to the point, where we'd squeezed every last bit of opportunity out of the small side. It truly was a liability and I was actively trying to find ways to dump it, though most of my colleagues in similar situations were too stupid to get it. Well, the events of 2008 took care of that, and here I am indy, with only the A and B part of the book. The 2 guys that took our place, probably thought they'd inherited the Taj Mahal, but as the months went by, we took the good stuff, left the bad, and they are doing below the firm's average acceptable production. I'm not saying that this Good Night.. program is all bad, but if those accounts come from some top dog hard working guy, then I'd bet that 95-99% of the HH are pure $hit.    

SuperMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-09-18

Here are my observations from the GK FAs in my region.  The kill it the first twelve months.  Flat out murder it.  (compaired to a new/new) however as they work over their book and pick off the low hanging fruit from those 7 weeks of door knocking their production begins to suffer in a BAD way.  They stall out and begin to say the GK clients blow and take too much time to service.  If they had to do it over again, they would have been new/new.  Ha!  They got lazy is all and never developed good habits. Now Jones knows this and tries to address it through bigger min. standards but they are easy enough to hit.The biggest problem I see with GKs are not the accounts they inherit but the fact the Vet. FA does not look at it like a mentor situation but just a way to dump their crap on someone elses head and new guys in general think having a 8k month is AMAZING!

N.D.'s picture
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Spaceman Spiff wrote:I think most of them know that the assets they get are the ones their GKN FA doesn't want.  A lot of the ones that we've had in our region have been GK2s, which are only $5 million.  Most of them say that the only value they saw in the program was getting to work with a veteran FA 5 days a week.  I think if I were to do it over again, I'd have chosen to do a GKN plan rather than just take over an office.  Unless it was a $40 non-competitive situation.  That's what I tell HQ folks who ask me about going into production.  HA I bet!! How often does that happen? Also, when an FA takes over an office be it competitive or not, do they ever not have to do the DK stuff the first three months? I heard after 3 months the reps can prospect however they want but if they are a transfer broker or from the home office like you, do they go through the training program?just my opinion, the door knocking would really suck even if it is only for say 6 months or whatever.

SuperMan's picture
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Joined: 2010-09-18

Everyone has to doorknock minus the transfer broker I believe.  Maybe even them.It does suck but damn is it effective. Especially in small towns.  I get 1-2 calls per month now from people I door knocked a year ago that want to do business with me.  I've found million dollar accounts and some crap too.  I guess it's like any prospecting method - if you do enough of it, often enough.  You'll make it.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Joined: 2006-08-08

It really depends on the situation.  I'm not sure how they do it anymore, but they used to not make some HQ people go through the whole training process because they wanted them in the office ASAP.  Especially if they were from some department like Training where they taught the classes and wouldn't get any additional benefit from sitting through it.  Sometimes you just know the right people who can pull the right strings to get you out of it.  I actually enjoyed the doorknocking once I got started with it.  I enjoyed being outside in the fresh air, talking with people, getting a little excercise.   There's nothing like walking around with nothing but your thoughts to give you time to think about your business.  Of course some guys just plain hate it.  $40 mil non-competitive offices don't come up very often.  It would be more normal to take over a $60 mil competitive office and see it turn into a $30 mil office.  I've had more than one conversation with new FAs in that situation.  I have a hard time feeling sorry for them.   

Nova02's picture
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Joined: 2010-06-28

Spaceman Spiff wrote:Nova02 wrote:Spaceman Spiff wrote:Yep, that's the way it works at Jones, at Merrill, at Morgan Stanley, etc.  Do you think when an indy rep brings on a junior assistant that the new FA gets to deal with all of the vet's prime accounts?  I don't think so. I'm not sure you can do both a GKN and a Legacy plan with the same new FA.  I would think the GKN program would superced the Legacy benefits.   I think that's really the case at any firm.  I will make a suggestion or plea, if you will, that we all do the junior FAs in our group a favor and at least educate them on the quality of those bottom book clients.  Too many naive young FAs enter the business and take over the bottom of someone's book thinking it's their golden meal ticket (not due to stupidity, but more lack of understanding and experience in our business).  Nothing wrong with culling your book, but I know when and if I ever do it myself I will be upfront with the new guy and say to him, "look - these aren't going to make your career... use them for experience, service the heck out of them, but spend 90% of your time prospecting for new clients."  PS - love the username, as I'm a big C&H fan.I had a vet tell me that the ratio should be 1 hour per week working in your office for every $1 mil you have in AUM.  So, if you took over a $10 mil book, spend 10 hours a week on the existing book and 40 hours a week building it.  Breathe when you get to $50 mil.  One of these days I'm going to paint C&H cartoon strips all over my bathroom walls here at the office.  I keep threatening to get a C&H tatoo, but I'm not sure I'm that willing to be connected with them for the rest of my life.  It's a shame Bill Watterson got fed up with the crap Universal was putting him through.  He is one of the best there will ever be.    that's dedication!  I have most of the books, and a funny strip pinned to my desk at work where Calvin tries to sell lemonade for $15.

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