Goldman Sachs

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Shmer33's picture
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I am very curious about GS.  Can anyone tell me about that organization, private advisors, and any personal experiences? They carry the reputation of being the most exclusive investment form in the world.  <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
 
You have to have a minimum net worth of 10 mil before they will even consider working with you. And if you are not Ivy League forget about working for them.  You have no chance.   
 
I almost forgot, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT GIVE ADVICE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOOUT.  It seems to me lately we have had people on this forum that go to an interview, and all of the sudden they feel they are qualified to give advice. 
 
If you are that K guy or the metro moron please don’t type any thing.  I want to hear from Joe, dude, NASD, etc..  The people who are actually in the business..
 
 
Regards:
 
Shmer33
 

xmsbroker's picture
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Shmer33 wrote:
   
And if you are not Ivy League forget about working for them.  You have no chance.   
 
 

Thats absurd.  Even NYC IBD hires from a lot of LACs and reputable state schools. Regional offices are less selective. 

NASD Newbie's picture
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You pretty well nailed it.  Years ago I had a good friend who went with them as an institutional broker because he had a huge book already.
I think they're one of the firms who contacts people they want to talk to about joining them and essentially ignores resumes being submitted by people trying to get a job with them.
The only way I can think of getting into Goldman is to be recommended by one of their clients--or perhaps a producer who would arrange an interview.
They're so damn exclusive that they don't even send people to traditional NASD and SIA gatherings--that would be below them I suppose.  Also they don't have much to learn or share with firms like Merrill or Smith Barney because they're so much different.

Shmer33's picture
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Shmer33 wrote:

   
And if you are not Ivy League forget about working for them.  You have no chance.    <?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />
 
 

Thats absurd.  Even NYC IBD hires from a lot of LACs and reputable state schools. Regional offices are less selective. 
 
 Bro i am just stating what i have heard about the quality of their candidates. 
How are they so much different from SB MS and merrill??

xmsbroker's picture
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They arent all that different, just much more exclusive.  As there is a jump b/w MS retail and PWM, there is a jump b/w MS PWM and GS PWM (or whatever they call it).  However, there's not a huge functional difference.  The platform is better and has more hf/pe type things that are better suited towards huge accounts.  The brokers are generally much better qualified to be HNW advisors and of a higher pedigree (though there are exceptions and certainly people at retail wirehouses that are of similar competency).  Jobs are had through connections (stating the obvious) and the like.  also, some top bschool grads become GS brokers, whereas they would have little interest in starting from scratch at SB, ML, MS etc

NASD Newbie's picture
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That from a guy who got fired at Morgan Stanley.
Read the first sentence above, "They arent (sic) all that different, just much more exclusive."
Where I sit being much more exclusive is being very different.

anonymous's picture
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An old neighbor of mine works for them.  His bonus last year was 5 million (according to his mom).  If you get a chance to talk to them, do it! 

xmsbroker's picture
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NASD Newbie wrote:
That from a guy who got fired at Morgan Stanley.
Read the first sentence above, "They arent (sic) all that different, just much more exclusive."
Where I sit being much more exclusive is being very different.

I see why people hate you.

Shmer33's picture
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NASD NewbieSenior MemberJoined: Aug. 01 2005Location: United StatesPosts: 1070

Posted: Aug. 23 2006 at 7:51pm | IP Logged

That from a guy who got fired at Morgan Stanley.
Read the first sentence above, "They arent (sic) all that different, just much more exclusive."
Where I sit being much more exclusive is being very different
This is why NASD is an asset to this forum.  No one knows the business better, and he enrages everyone continuously (nothing against you xmsbroker).
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I am not saying xmsbroker got the axe, I am saying NASD is industry educated and experienced.   
 
Call it like it is...

troll's picture
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Your perceptions are generally accurate.They also make a ton of money trading their own capital(as a firm).Ironically, last time I looked at their mutual funds they were REALLY bad!

Philo Kvetch's picture
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Shmer33 wrote:
   
I am very curious about GS.  Can anyone tell me about that organization, private advisors, and any personal experiences? They carry the reputation of being the most exclusive investment form in the world.  <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

You have to have a minimum net worth of 10 mil before they will even consider working with you. And if you are not Ivy League forget about working for them.  You have no chance.   

I almost forgot, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT GIVE ADVICE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOOUT.  It seems to me lately we have had people on this forum that go to an interview, and all of the sudden they feel they are qualified to give advice. 

If you are that K guy or the metro moron please don’t type any thing.  I want to hear from Joe, dude, NASD, etc..  The people who are actually in the business..
 
 
Regards:
 
Shmer33
 

Make no mistake Shmer...NASD Newbie worked around our business for quite a while, but spent very little time in it.

rook4123's picture
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Now they have the largest hedge fund in the world. Also, I know an
independent broker in Tampa, and just last week I asked him to his
knowledge what Goldman's minimum was. He said that they will work with
you if you have several million. You probably have to be referred. I
know they target private business owners and real estate tycoons. If
you go to their website most of the people are foreign. Like it was
said, you better be Ivey League educated or forget about working there,
and probably know someone. Last comment, I read an article I belive in,
the mag Wall Street. It was GS president talking about recruiting
current brokers. His comment that the ones in the 2-3mm production
range which is their average or requirement aren't that quick to join
up b/c the payout is so much less at about 25%, and they are
comfortable. That begs the question, If you were offered a job with GS
even with a pay decrease, would you go?

xmsbroker's picture
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Shmer33 wrote:

NASD NewbieSenior MemberJoined: Aug. 01 2005Location: United StatesPosts: 1070

Posted: Aug. 23 2006 at 7:51pm | IP Logged

That from a guy who got fired at Morgan Stanley.
Read the first sentence above, "They arent (sic) all that different, just much more exclusive."
Where I sit being much more exclusive is being very different
This is why NASD is an asset to this forum.  No one knows the business better, and he enrages everyone continuously (nothing against you xmsbroker).
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I am not saying xmsbroker got the axe, I am saying NASD is industry educated and experienced.   

Call it like it is...

Whatever floats your boat.  If I got the axe, I wouldve picked (or switched to) a slightly more discreet moniker...
"Where I sit being much more exclusive is being very different."
Not in important ways.  Its not like GS has products that get their clients 20% annualized returns w/out much risk.

xmsbroker's picture
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In regard to their primary businesses, GS is objectively better than the competition, which is why their PWM is so exclusive.  And why their mutual funds sell even though they suck. 

dude's picture
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Look, I doubt anyone here can provide any real inside perspective on the company.  Their brokers operate on a much different level with their customers, generally work in teams of 5 and work much closer with the manufacturers of investment products (investment bankers) then your average wirehouse guy.  Each member develops a specialty and is the lead for a target of 20 clients each with a minimum of $10 million (although they do take accounts with less).  I have heard of guys competing for some accounts that had $5 plus million that were mostly in poor performing Goldman Sachs mutual funds and other investments that were not all that inspiring.  I imagine that those with higher balances get great access to house underwritten issues and some pretty tony Ultra High Networth investments ( Private Real Estate, Mezzanine Loans etc....).  They will take guys who aren't from the Ivy Leagues, but they must be top of class and are usually under 5 years and at $1 million in production.
I'd really love to hear from any current or former GS brokers as well. 

skolbrother's picture
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I took an account away from GS. Not the complete household, but an account. To quote Ron Burgundy "I mean that thing is good." Teams of 5, wine and dine, fly in and make clients believe they are "mystical". My belief is packaging is fantastic, performance is prudently above average. However, if you are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to work for them ... do it. Perception is normally reality. We may know better but the client may not. In other words if they want a Rolls Royce and you are trying to convince them a BMW is just as good they just may not buy it. Some people may want the expert from NYC, Chicago or wherever to tell them the same things you may be saying but they do it with more certainty, a better suit and a more prestigous address.

Shmer33's picture
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I understand it is not uncommon for their brokers to treat their clients to elaborate vacations and other expensive gifts..
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
What the hell.. if a guy is giving you 50 million the cost of a few nights in the Bahamas is a joke...
 But how does that comply with the $100 annual rule? 

rook4123's picture
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well put skolbrother,well put

JCadieux's picture
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rook4123 wrote:Like it was
said, you better be Ivey League educated or forget about working there,
and probably know someone.
Last time I visited Baylor, I met students who had interviewed with and received offers from GS.  I'm sure everybody will agree that Baylor is NOT an ivy league school.The kids struck me as very sharp, and I'm confident that they got their offers through merit.  Not connections.(Before I get a flood of calls, let me clarify that it was a speaking engagement.  I do not place recent college graduates.)

NASD Newbie's picture
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Shmer33 wrote:
I understand it is not uncommon for their brokers to treat their clients to elaborate vacations and other expensive gifts..
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
What the hell.. if a guy is giving you 50 million the cost of a few nights in the Bahamas is a joke...

But how does that comply with the $100 annual rule? 
If the broker goes along it's considered entertainment--entertainment is not limited.
 

skolbrother's picture
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NASD are you saying I can take my client to Maui and call it entertainment? Serious question. Goldman took a shared client to the Masters a few years ago. I always wondered how that was legal.
(before everyone piles on for taking advice on a message board I don't take anything as gospel on here but looking for a little insight on this topic)

NASD Newbie's picture
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Think about it.  Entertainment is the lifeblood of the industry, and how much entertaining can you do for $100?
As with anything you do you should check it out, but there are no NASD rules that say you must not spend more than "X" dollars on entertainment.
The definition of entertainment specifies that the party doing the entertaining must be present at the time the entertainment is provided.
So, unless your firm says no you will not violate NASD rules by spending a ton of money on a client as long as you tag along.
If your firm says no and you do it anyway the ignoring of your firm becomes a violation of the NASD rules.

compliancejerk's picture
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newbie,
What is the largest "entertainment" expense that one of your many firms has permitted you to pay for?

NASD Newbie's picture
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Once I picked up a $20,000+ cocktails/dinner/wine tab for about 75 branch managers and wives---oops, branch mangers and spouses.
The really outrageous stuff occurs in the IB area--they're prone to holding their due diligence meetings in places that are not free.
Is that entertainment, or just holding a meeting in a very expensive place?

compliancejerk's picture
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In what capacity did you pickup the tab?

NASD Newbie's picture
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compliancejerk wrote:
In what capacity did you pickup the tab?

The guy who was expected to pick up the tab.

compliancejerk's picture
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wholesaler, stock promoter, underwriter or just a big swinging appendage?

Shmer33's picture
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NASD:
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
You picked up the tab for your employees and colleagues.  There are no specifications about that..
 
Basically, it is common for brokers to bend the annual $100 rule when it comes to clientele appreciation?? 

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Shmer33 wrote:
NASD:
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
You picked up the tab for your employees and colleagues.  There are no specifications about that..

Basically, it is common for brokers to bend the annual $100 rule when it comes to clientele appreciation?? 

Don't you dare give a client something that cost you more than $100.
You never know who is looking over your shoulder.
Save money on gifts for family--make them into accounts then cite the rule.

NASD Newbie's picture
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Have you ever known somebody who complained to somebody else's boss because their holiday gift cost too much money?
What you really need to worry about is if the limit includes sales tax.

compliancejerk's picture
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compliancejerk wrote:wholesaler, stock promoter, underwriter or just a big swinging appendage?
you're a lonely old man whose family has deserted him (hence the dressed up pooch). You're probably dissed by them as much as you are here .... small wonder.

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compliancejerk wrote:
you're a lonely old man whose family has deserted him (hence the dressed up pooch). You're probably dissed by them as much as you are here .... small wonder.

Nah, I've been married for thirty six years to the most supportive wife in the world.
How about you, ever married?

xmsbroker's picture
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NASD Newbie wrote:
Once I picked up a $20,000+ cocktails/dinner/wine tab for about 75 branch managers and wives---oops, branch mangers and spouses.
The really outrageous stuff occurs in the IB area--they're prone to holding their due diligence meetings in places that are not free.
Is that entertainment, or just holding a meeting in a very expensive place?

It takes one pathetic lose to lie on a message board about spending someone else's money.

NASD Newbie's picture
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xmsbroker wrote:NASD Newbie wrote:
Once I picked up a $20,000+ cocktails/dinner/wine tab for about 75 branch managers and wives---oops, branch mangers and spouses.
The really outrageous stuff occurs in the IB area--they're prone to holding their due diligence meetings in places that are not free.
Is that entertainment, or just holding a meeting in a very expensive place?

It takes one pathetic lose to lie on a message board about spending someone else's money.

Nah, it was at Mortons in Palm Springs--ever been there?

xmsbroker's picture
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actually i have

NASD Newbie's picture
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xmsbroker wrote:actually i have
It's a great place, don't you think.  Do you think it's location is convenient?

xmsbroker's picture
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very convenient for a fictitious story.

NASD Newbie's picture
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xmsbroker wrote:very convenient for a fictitious story.
What you don't think thirty five branch managers would have gathered with their spouses in Palm Springs?  That seems beyond belief to you?

xmsbroker's picture
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I don't think theres a Mortons in Palm Springs.  I don't think the average bill per person would be ~$300.  I sure as hell dont think you would be in charge to pay for it.  The fact that you flaunt it in a thread that has nothing to do w/ corporate perks for worker bees is all the funnier.

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NASD Newbie wrote:xmsbroker wrote:very convenient for a fictitious story.
What you don't think thirty five branch managers would have gathered with their spouses in Palm Springs?  That seems beyond belief to you?OHhhh.....man all we needed was a gas leak and an ignition source!

Shmer33's picture
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I have been to Mortons, but not the Palm Springs location.  You can drop $300 bones on dinner and drinks per person. Especially if you are sipping cocktails before, during, and after the meal.   
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
NASD:
 
I would never drop more than $100 on a client.  I am not going to start breaking and bending the rules as a rookie.     

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Shmer33 wrote:
I have been to Mortons, but not the Palm Springs location.  You can drop $300 bones on dinner and drinks per person. Especially if you are sipping cocktails before, during, and after the meal.   
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
NASD:

I would never drop more than $100 on a client.  I am not going to start breaking and bending the rules as a rookie.     

That's good, rookies are the worst violators of the rules.
You never know when the gift police are going to be out and about.

Boomer's picture
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Lets get back to GS...what is their setup in terms of support staff and how their teams are arranged?
 

dude's picture
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dude wrote:
Look, I doubt anyone here can provide any real inside perspective on the company.  Their brokers operate on a much different level with their customers, generally work in teams of 5 and work much closer with the manufacturers of investment products (investment bankers) then your average wirehouse guy.  Each member develops a specialty and is the lead for a target of 20 clients each with a minimum of $10 million (although they do take accounts with less).  I have heard of guys competing for some accounts that had $5 plus million that were mostly in poor performing Goldman Sachs mutual funds and other investments that were not all that inspiring.  I imagine that those with higher balances get great access to house underwritten issues and some pretty tony Ultra High Networth investments ( Private Real Estate, Mezzanine Loans etc....).  They will take guys who aren't from the Ivy Leagues, but they must be top of class and are usually under 5 years and at $1 million in production.
I'd really love to hear from any current or former GS brokers as well. 

See highlighted text above.

dude's picture
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I guess that most info provided is going to be speculative in nature.  You can go to Goldman Sachs site and look under their careers section, but it's going to be vague. 
I'm wondering if any brokers from Lehman or Bear Stearns hang out around here.
I believe the general rule is that if you are at the top of the heap then you probably wont be posting here much, if at all.

Shmer33's picture
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Dude:
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
What firms are the “top of the heap”?  I was under the impression that Morgan, Merrill, UBS, Wachovia, are top tier and Goldman is the best. 
 
Look at the US government.  Half of the officials in the treasury department came from Goldman.   
 

dude's picture
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Top Tier Firms are actually (from an average broker production perspective):
Goldman Sachs
Lehman Brothers
Bear Stearns
Dutchebank/Alex Brown
Credit Suisse First Boston
and maybe Brown Brothers Harriman?  Although I'm not sure about that one.
Have I left any out?
 

dude's picture
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The notables you mention are far bigger in scale (they make the brokerage operations of the 'exclusive' crowd look tiny), but are much more mainstream and less exclusive.
Like I mentioned before the brokers at the firms I mentioned are in a different league than the rest (generally speaking) and work much closer with the investment banking department.  They also generally work more with investments that target 'accredited investors'.
Oh and it's Deutsche Bank....just caught that one.

dude's picture
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Shmer33 wrote:
Dude:
 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
What firms are the “top of the heap”?  I was under the impression that Morgan, Merrill, UBS, Wachovia, are top tier and Goldman is the best. 

Look at the US government.  Half of the officials in the treasury department came from Goldman.   

What does 'the best' mean?  Goldman is just marketing to a very limited and exclusive prospect base, but their brokerage arm is laughable compared to Merrill from a size perspective.
Goldman, I would say carries the most mystique, but 'the best' is a vague concept dependent on what paradigm you are coming from.

Shmer33's picture
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I am referring to the firm having the most qualified and educated brokers.  <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
 
Correct me if I am wrong but brokers and investment bankers working together would pose a serious conflict of interest.   After all, investment banking and the retail brokerage business are on opposite sides of the scale.  Couldn’t an individual trade based on inside information gained from the investment banking side of the business?
 
Didn’t some 23-year-old puke just get in trouble for that?   He was an investment banker for Merrill or something. 
 How in the world a 23year old gets an ib job with Merrill is beyond my comprehension. 

Boomer's picture
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I know that Credit Suisse is a very high class opertion. I have met with a few of their teams, and they are with GS in the ultra HNW category. The team I spoke to went after 20-30M. One of the solo brokers minimums was 10M. Very impressive office too!

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