Average AUM req. for 1st year?

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logan's picture
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What are the average AUM requirements for first year producers at most firms? 
AUM for second year?
What does that equate to in earnings on average?
 
How does insurance products factor into AUM?    Have heard differing thoughts on this and wondering how say a  $500k whole life policy would factor into AUM or even if it would?
Thank you all.
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Starka's picture
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Logan, I don't know what firm minimums are at any firm.  But let me share the best piece of advice I have in this vein; don't even ask.  Just put your head down and do the absolute best you can.  Flat out, all day,every day.  Focus on meeting people and asking for the order.
I've seen it happen where rookies get into that "minimum" mindset, and that's where they live.  The last three days of the selling month, they're running aound like crazy, and that's no way to live.
So ignore the minimums, and don't get to thinking that "I've made the minimum this month, so I'll sandbag for next month".
You'll be surprised at what you can do.
Best of luck to ya!

logan's picture
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Point well taken Starka.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Yet to enter field and at this time trying to gain insight on what the "norms" are so to say.  My first experience (MetLife) was an eye opener and promised myself to be more diligent in the future.  As such like to know what would be expected of me and what I can expect to earn if I hit the numbers my first two-three years.
Thanks all.

Scorpio's picture
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I know at Merrill Lynch it is 7.5 million 1st yr, 15 million by end of
second year.  If you hit your marks for the first 3 years you will
be making around 80-100k. 

A POA (trainee) in my office just landed a 40 million dollar 401k
deal.  Killed his marks with one shot.  It can be done.
     

Starka's picture
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Just out of curiousity, do they re-set the marks when that happens?  For the life of me, I can't see a firm letting a rookie hit a home run, then doing below average after that.

Scorpio's picture
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "re-setting the marks".  The marks don't re-set.

What would lead you to believe he would do below average after
that?  If he has the game to close that deal he can probably close
everything he touches.  

Starka's picture
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I saw it happen at Jones.  Guy came out of the gate with a couple of big hits, and a year later he was gone because he'd done nothing else.
I'm not suggesting anything about your guy...just asking.

Scorpio's picture
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A couple big hits then nothing at all?  That sucks...makes you
wonder if this industry is more about luck than anything else. 
Looks like his luck ran out real quick then I guess!

Starka's picture
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In a way, I'm glad I didn't luck out like that when I was starting.  You know how that "enough for one day" thinking can take hold. 

logan's picture
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Any have numbers on AGE?

noggin's picture
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As long as you bring in 6 M 1st yr and another 6 M second year you will be fine....

logan's picture
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How does insurance factor into AUM? 
 Have seen conflicting statements.
 
Thanks

blarmston's picture
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My firm does not included insurance with AUM. Not the cash value, not the face amount. From a comp standpoint, it is simply a way to place another product to further strengthen the relationship, obviously satisfy their need/concern, and for the rep to make a couple bucks.. And the payout is horrible, so a few reps I know dont even bother, which I think is a mistake because it opens up the chance for some insurance rep to swoop in and starting picking off assets....

logan's picture
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As always thanks to all who replied.

rightway's picture
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Starka wrote:I saw it happen at Jones.  Guy came out of the
gate with a couple of big hits, and a year later he was gone because
he'd done nothing else.
I'm not suggesting anything about your guy...just asking.

I don't think this is the same as the ML POA who landed the 40 Mil 401
(k).  If you land a nice deal like that and cannot grow from
there, you should get out. 

Besides all of that...How many rookies at Jones (or any other regional
or Indy) gets a deal like that?  This is a nice example of a
benefit of working for a large firm with the resources to target nice
sized clients without the piles of personal experience to get it (ML is
the best for this).   Working for Merrill Lynch (or the likes
of Smith Barney) a young rep can make a contact, fly in a shooter to
help, and be manageing 40 million dollars.  There are tons of
these deals out there, but only for those willing to go get them.

Put Trader's picture
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rightway wrote:

Besides all of that...How many rookies at Jones (or any other regional
or Indy) gets a deal like that?  This is a nice example of a
benefit of working for a large firm with the resources to target nice
sized clients without the piles of personal experience to get it (ML is
the best for this).   Working for Merrill Lynch (or the likes
of Smith Barney) a young rep can make a contact, fly in a shooter to
help, and be manageing 40 million dollars.  There are tons of
these deals out there, but only for those willing to go get them.

He's exactly right regarding the benefits of working for places like
Merrill or Smith Barney--you should also add UBS and Wachovia to the
list of strong retail houses where there is the large collection of
support.  The benefit of having "shooters" available cannot be
overstated.

Smaller firms also have them--it's just that the cients are far less
likely to even entertain the possibility of doing this type of business
with a small firm.

It is also almost impossible to prospect for this type of
business--when those types of accounts are moved it happens because
somebody told an underling, "I've decided that the pension fund is
going to be moved to Merrill, my sister's son was hired there and he's
going to be the broker of record for the account.  He will be here
with some other Merrill people (shooters) on Friday.  We'll be
meeting in the small conference room at 10:30, you and Paul clear your
calendars."

The ability to cause that to happen is the ONLY reason to hire a young
person.  Is it fair?  Maybe not, but it's the way it is.

When you're older the "........my sister's son...." can be replaced
with "....my best friend....." or any of dozens of reasons that MATURE
people do business with other MATURE people.

++++++

It is also a hell of a lot more involved than being willing to go out
and get the business.  There are hundreds of considerations--not
the least of which is the odd thing that affected Enron, a period of
time (just a week or so) when the plan is in limbo as it is moved from
one place to another.  In the case of Enron that happened to be
when several people wanted to sell their vested shares and they were
unable to do so.  Managers are keenly aware of that issue and as a
result seem to be less willing to switch.  My point here is that
sometimes there are factors in play that don't make sense--to anybody
but the person who is making the decision and you can sit there and
drive yourself nuts wondering why you can't get the guy from point A to
point B.  He just ain't gonna go there, regardless of what you say
or do.

But let's get back on point.  That being that this type of
business is not prospected for in traditional ways.  It's the
"serious money" that is handled very carefully.  The world of
middle aged men and women dealing with other middle aged men and
women.  If you're less than forty (or even older) you stand a
better chance of getting hit by a bus than landing one of these
accounts unless you bring something other than good looks and good BS
to the table.  A forty-five year old who took their Series 7 last
week has a better chance than a thirty-three year old who took their
test ten years ago.

++++++

Then there's the banks.  Where does that company have its
money?  Answer, at a bank.  Do they have a relationship with
a commercial lending officer right now?  You bet.  Does that
commercial lending officer have an associate (shooter) who will be more
than happy to discuss managing the pension fund?  Do big bears
schidt in the woods?

How about the long standing relationship with The Guardian--or
Northwestern Mutual, etc.--who handles the group life plan, or the
group health plan?  Does the guy or gal who is working on this
year's renewal of the policy have an associate (shooter) who will be
more than happy to discuss managing the pension fund?  Does the
Pope wear a funny hat?

What causes blood to run cold in Wall Street is this.

In the eyes of the investors a firm like Merrill is not thought of when
it comes to borrowing money.  You think of banks as where to
borrow money and so does the CFO who is overseeing a pension fund along
with the day-to-day needs of his employer.  At an intellectual
level he understands that Merrill is more than a stock brokerage
firm--but he also knows that his bank is more than a bank.

He also tends to think of his banker as a professional and the guys and
gals over at Merrill as salespeople worthy of little or no respect.

At the insurance level the relationship is a bit more flexible--but
generally decisions are made based on total premium and coverages
provided.  The Acme Corporation will switch from The Guardian to
MetLife if MetLife offers more coverages for the same or less
premium.  Switching is far easier than transferring a pension fund
from one custodian to another.

Now, to a great many people (like almost 100%) a guy or gal from
Merrill is thought of as being more professional than a guy or gal from
an insurance company--BUT Merrill is not thought of as the source of
good advice about insurance.  Again, at an intellectual level it
is understood that Merrill can handle your insurance needs--but when
somebody says "Health Insurance" or "Group Life" it is almost
impossible that a possible buyer is going to think "Merrill Lynch"
instead of "MetLife."  Snoopy is even more famous than the Merrill
Bull.

++++++

The message in this is this.  I have known more than a few
potentially good stock brokers who failed because they spent their time
hunting elephants only to find out that they were not capable of
killing an elephant.

If you have the family contacts, exploit them.  If you were not
born with a silver spoon in your mouth--and most of us were not--then
understand that you're going to be wasting your time trying to get
business that will be directed to somebody who did choose their parents
correctly.

Yesterday the Forex Fraud guy mentioned that the market has created 7.5
million new millionaires.  That may be true.  And it may be
true that some of them are jerks like him--but what is not true is
this.  Jerks do not choose other jerks to manage their money.

A great many of the punks who post on this message board are
essentially worthless jerks--jackoffs who happened to have been offered
a sales job by a sales manager who went agains their better angels and
actually suggested to a punk kid that they belong in the rarified air
of holding people's futures in the palms of their hands.

Anybody under forty is too young to be credible when it comes to
"serious money" and this particular generation of under forty types has
been cursed by experiencing the worst education in the history of the
United States as well as being lulled into a ridiculous false sense of
confidence by the most non-sensical bull market since the tulips.

There are certain laws in this business.  "No tree grows forever"
is a biggie--as is "I'd rather be lucky (silver spoon) than good."

Starka's picture
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"A great many of the punks who post on this message board are essentially worthless jerks--jackoffs who happened to have been offered a sales job by a sales manager who went agains their better angels and actually suggested to a punk kid that they belong in the rarified air of holding people's futures in the palms of their hands."
****************************************************
The world of investors was truly blessed when you yourself as a worthless jackoff found yourself being plucked from that same rarified production air before you could do much more damage, to be elevated to your current clerkship position.
Now, of course, you're a worthless jackoff with a better cubicle!  (Closer to the rest room, anyway.  At your advanced age, that's important!)

Put Trader's picture
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Starka wrote:"A great many of the punks who post on this message
board are essentially worthless jerks--jackoffs who happened to have
been offered a sales job by a sales manager who went agains their
better angels and actually suggested to a punk kid that they belong in
the rarified air of holding people's futures in the palms of their
hands."
****************************************************
The world of investors was truly blessed when you yourself as a
worthless jackoff found yourself being plucked from that same rarified
production air before you could do much more damage, to be elevated to
your current clerkship position.
Now, of course, you're a worthless jackoff with a better
cubicle!  (Closer to the rest room, anyway.  At your advanced
age, that's important!)

Envison Starka standing there stomping his foot and screaming, "Stop talking about me!"

Starka's picture
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You asked me a question, I gave you an answer.  That's the way it works in the real world, sonny.  (I call you "sonny" because of your "sunny" disposition.)

Put Trader's picture
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Starka wrote:You asked me a question, I gave you an answer. 
That's the way it works in the real world, sonny.  (I call you
"sonny" because of your "sunny" disposition.)

Asked you a question?  Where?  What?

What I said was there is an extraordinary number of losers on this
message board and you jumped right in there with the message board
equivalent of "Stop talking about me!"

You're the soul who keeps whining that I'm not showing respect.  I
am not positive but I think you are a Negro and as a Negro you have
that "He be disrespecting me" chip as big as Dallas on your shoulder.

Perhaps I'm wrong about your race, but I'm not wrong about your
tendency to jump in at every opportunity to whine about not being
respectful of those of your ilk.

You're right, I'm not.  You're a clown who has no right to be in this business--somebody's hiring mistake.

Mojo's picture
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This is an apples to comquats comparison. Put are you really connected
with any level or tier or are you temporally on leave from a tied pier?
You actually want to compare current relationship management in the
pensions fund category. What playbook are you borrowing from - check to
see if it says Fran Tarkington somewhere near the bottom. You may be
able to collect a "transaction fee" for it at your local swap-meet.

The pension fund  being discussed by  C-Level 
players  is  not  a  subject  that comes 
up  in  the  world of  retail  brokerages, a
banks trust dept. or with some career agency. This type of business
historically has been the domain of specialist (I am talking about an
industry that has long ago transitioned 1975-1985) firm. These firms
were gobbled up when "Institional Money Management" speeded onto the
redars of banks (JP Morgan types) and brokerages (Merrill Lynch). 
Since, Put likes to mention UBS let's use them for a quick lesson. Gary
Brinson (a Mt Rushmore sized legend in this field) began reshaping
Brinson Partners around 1981 to position his firm to ride the ever
increasing waves of clients needs that were expanding around him. His
firm was managing $2B of AUM (chump change in the institutional
market). In less then a decade he had rode the wave with some other
firms that saw their AUM grew 40-50 fold.  Today that firm is part
of UBS Global Asset Management. Now Put, you arent trying in some
simplistic stretch of the imagination to fabricate advice 
threaded with the premise that anyone in the Private Equity world
really cares what one scores on the series 7? These very private groups
have the individuals with CFA's and every other necessary alphabet
after their names and represent the highest concentration of brain
trusts (perhaps only comparable to VC's, Investment Bankers and
Hedgefunds) in the industry.  You would better serve this forum if
you drew comparisons between Advisory Firms and Brokerages with the
continued pressure to compress margins. This is what the meetings
upstairs have been about for the last decade. The Semi-Affluent. You
might want to weigh the risk vs. the gain of continuing to sift through
the shred bins in search of long ago retired strategies. I may have to
write you out of the will if you don't shape of twerp.

Put Trader's picture
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Mojo wrote:This is an apples to comquats comparison.

Another diatribe without so much as a carriage return to indicate that
he took a breath--and to think there are those who figure I am not the
heart and soul of Wall Street, much less this silly message board.

How do you think Gary Brinson got his start?  By smiling and
dialing, or by moving in the right circles to generate contacts and
mentors?

Tell me Mojo, if you're from Woodside, Queens what do you do to get
yourself invited to a fund raiser in the Hamptons so that you might
meet somebody who can steer you?

From where I sit if you're a mere financial type the only way you get
to hob nob with the "Beautiful People" who make decisions involving
huge sums of money is to be the son or daughter of a beautiful person.

Are you telling me that Joe Bagadoughnuts is going to find himself
walking into a Hamptons gathering because he's a broker at Merrill?

Are you telling me that it's possible to earn your way into a firm like
Brinson Partners if you're not "well born" to begin with?

Starka's picture
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Wow.  Put doesn't think I belong in this business.
Try to imagine how much that hurts coming from you, Put.

sienna's picture
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Put Trader wrote: and to think there are those who figure I am not the heart and soul of Wall Street, much less this silly message board.
It seems as if this silly message board is a major part of your life...weird for someone who knows everything about everything...you would think you would use your skills for a bigger and more meaningful purpose.

Mojo's picture
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Put Trader wrote:Another diatribe without so much as a carriage return to indicate that
he took a breath

Being a big fish in a small puddle has conditioned you to breathe and
think in a staccato tempo (I envision something an inch deep and a mile
wide). Swimming in deeper waters requires measuring thoughts beyond
whether the tuna in the can was packed with oil or water. Please
illustrate how a retail brokerage, banking trust department, or career
agencies connection to a hired gun/shooter relates to the world of
pension fund/institutional money management? (cairrage return inserted
for my Kafka-like catfish)

 You really need to accept the world you influence and ignore your
mudpuddled ideas of how the big fish operate. It seems to fall
somewhere between Jonas and Moby Dick.  Please have your
illustrations prepared prior to this evenings dinner or you will go to
bed without. I wonder if I could pitch Put in some twist of fate,
trading places adventure, where he plays the part of an orphaned boy
(in shorts and argyle socks, of course). Oliver Twisted. I can see the
part where he asks the SVP, "more transactions, pleeeeasse" sh*te, make
it ring truer with an all tranny cast. Forget off-broadway. This thing
would fly in London....Boarding school flunkies, canings and
crossdressing. Put, your dribble has finally attracted the long
deserved lighting rod attention you've been longing.

Put Trader's picture
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sienna wrote:
It seems as if this silly message board is a major part of your
life...weird for someone who knows everything about everything...you
would think you would use your skills for a bigger and more meaningful
purpose.

That you recognize that I know everything about everything is so
nice--and to think you probably never imagined getting to share with me.

What greater mission is there in life than sharing wisdom with a bunch of neophytes?

Perhaps I should have "Born to  Share" tatooed on my forehead.

sienna's picture
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Awww Put, don't get religious on me now..."Born to Share"? Couldn't come up with anything better than that?
"Tell me something, dear reader.  Are your standards so low that you actually believe that" you are worthy of our confidence?

Mojo's picture
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Put Trader wrote:Perhaps I should have "Born to  Share" tatooed on my forehead.

You might as well add the backside strip "THE BUCK STOPS HERE...PUT IN FOR BUSINESS"

Mojo's picture
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Put Trader wrote: How do you think Gary Brinson got his start?  By smiling and
dialing, or by moving in the right circles to generate contacts and
mentors?

Are you telling me that it's possible to earn your way into a firm like
Brinson Partners if you're not "well born" to begin with?

I hope this helps soften the landing: Gary Brinson started his career
as an entry-level (fill out an application and we'll call you-don't
call us) analyst
for Travelers Insurance Co., in Hartford, CT. This is after he attended
the most prestigious learning center (perhaps only rivaled by the
London School of Economics (and Philosophy)), in the culturally rich
forests of beautiful people behind every tree, known as Washington
State University. You Put-Putted again Champ.

Phlyin&#039; Phule's picture
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Put Trader wrote: Starka wrote:
"A great many of the punks who post on this message board are essentially worthless jerks--jackoffs who happened to have been offered a sales job by a sales manager who went agains their better angels and actually suggested to a punk kid that they belong in the rarified air of holding people's futures in the palms of their hands."
****************************************************
The world of investors was truly blessed when you yourself as a worthless jackoff found yourself being plucked from that same rarified production air before you could do much more damage, to be elevated to your current clerkship position.
Now, of course, you're a worthless jackoff with a better cubicle!  (Closer to the rest room, anyway.  At your advanced age, that's important!)
Envison Starka standing there stomping his foot and screaming, "Stop talking about me!"
I don't think so, Put.  When I see the words "Jerk" and "Jack-off", I for one think of you immediately, not Starka.

Mojo's picture
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Mojo wrote:
Put Trader wrote: How do you think Gary Brinson got his start?  By smiling and
dialing, or by moving in the right circles to generate contacts and
mentors?

Are you telling me that it's possible to earn your way into a firm like
Brinson Partners if you're not "well born" to begin with?

I hope this helps soften the landing: Gary Brinson started his career
as an entry-level (fill out an application and we'll call you-don't
call us) analyst
for Travelers Insurance Co., in Hartford, CT. This is after he attended
the most prestigious learning center (perhaps only rivaled by the
London School of Economics (and Philosophy)), in the culturally rich
forests of beautiful people behind every tree, known as Washington
State University. You Put-Putted again Champ.

Silence. You must be contemplating your successful exit strategy. What
is the cost of a nice 6-room flat on the west side of the forum going
for these days?

Put, you need to pick up a copy of Melville's "Bartleby. the
Scrivener." What's old is new again. Having been cast as a utilitarian
hammer in the service of your master, I ask, of what use are you now
broken?  What happens when methods fail? I must say, etherally,
you do appear to have leveraged your functionality into the world's
first forum cyber "paperless-weight."

 

Mojo's picture
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Put Trader wrote:
Mojo wrote:This is an apples to comquats comparison.

Another diatribe without so much as a carriage return to indicate that
he took a breath--and to think there are those who figure I am not the
heart and soul of Wall Street, much less this silly message board.

How do you think Gary Brinson got his start?  By smiling and
dialing, or by moving in the right circles to generate contacts and
mentors?

Tell me Mojo, if you're from Woodside, Queens what do you do to get
yourself invited to a fund raiser in the Hamptons so that you might
meet somebody who can steer you?

From where I sit if you're a mere financial type the only way you get
to hob nob with the "Beautiful People" who make decisions involving
huge sums of money is to be the son or daughter of a beautiful person.

Are you telling me that Joe Bagadoughnuts is going to find himself
walking into a Hamptons gathering because he's a broker at Merrill?

Are you telling me that it's possible to earn your way into a firm like
Brinson Partners if you're not "well born" to begin with?

Hola, this is Mojo Bagadoughnuts, Mr. Highbrow Esq. is expecting my
call (btw, I emailed him a couple of weeks ago asking him to let me
know where I could spend a few charitable dollars when I was in Albany
this August and that I would call today at 3 pm est). Mr. Highbrow Esq
and I exchange greetings. He's a managing Partner at an old school Law
firm which profitably  keeps a small office in Albany which
facilitates access for a price. I explain that I'll be traveling
through Albany to meet with a client. He suggests I should take the
time to be introduced at a republican and democratic cocktail party or
luncheon ($300-$500 a chair). Since the Legislature is divided with the
assembly owned by the Democrats and the senate run by the Republicans,
he mused it might be interesting to "spend" time acquainting myself
with some of the folks from each camp. He passed on the name of a
partner at the Albany office that could arrange invitations to fit my
schedule. After thanking him for all the trouble, I mentioned a special
release from a winery we share appreciatable interest in and how I'd
like to stop by to leave some samples (ha) next month on my NY trip
before I make the trek north. I planted a seed that I'd like to write a
few checks at some fundraisers in the Hampton's if he knew of any that
might interest my wife (hunger, animals or literacy) or be family
friendly. He asked me to email him my itinery for the 2 weeks in
August. 

When I stop by to drop off the wine in August I'm sure we'll sample a
bottle of something he thinks from his collection while wehave lunch in
the firms "cafeteria."  I'll be sure to thank him for the invites
to the Hamptons. I'll also drop a trinkette for his assistant from an
organic boutique and spa that my wife likes. Life's easier then you
make it Putsy.

(BTW, he mentioned, he and Chuck Scarborough shared some committee work
in the past and knows "Chuck" likes to throw a party  or two.)

fargo's picture
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What a bunch of bs, sorry Mojo. I'll stick to my low brow clients, be a low brow high profit financial advisor,  and enjoy the free time and fishing. Nobody worth knowing wants your fancy gifts or friendship. Put has some good, solid insights about the reality of our industry. Let the rich kids kiss rich ****.

Mojo's picture
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Fargo - You might want to ask forgiveness instead of saying I'm sorry.
So sorry is what you say when you spill milk. It's the way you respond
to an accident. No apologies seem necessary in any regards.

I have a crew of people who let me do what I do best. I rarely mess
with paperwork except to reach for a pen. I check my schedule but don't
handle the upkeep on it. I try to meet with one or two clients each day
f2f. I cold-call softened prospects for at least one hour each day.
Twice each month, I spend Sunday nights on the phone for another 1-2
hours taking care of private clients and some prospecting.  I do
some of this stuff on the road twice a month from a mobile phone and
via wifi. I also have a few niches I will prospect cold when I need a
jolt of adrenaline. I work hard at working smart. Each Monday morning I
review a report about how our firm spent time making money. We live for
ROI of a client. We spend our dollars where we think they will soldier
the best for our firm's cause (making money, sonny). It's not about
greed. It's about need. My people know we our a high performance race
team. They take pride in making sure their "driver" has the best rig on
the track.

(BTW, I collect all information possible on each client and have tables
created to funnel info  about  how to remind the people I
serve that there doesn't exist another experience quite like the one
they share with our firm. )

(BTW, I wasn't born wealthy. Schooling was vocational at best, mixed
with a healthy dose of OJT. And most my "friends" come from my
involvement in community, church and family. )

(BTW, I don't buy friendships. I pay for access. Don't you bait the
hook or cast a fly when you pursue your interests? The example above
could of as easily been used to contact a rancher in a remote part of
of the world. If, let's say, I needed access to a trust department at a
regional Ag Credit Union. )

I haven't ever seen a model that competively competes spending 80% of
my time with clients that provide 20% of our firms margins. Here's a
gem - our most profitable clients only take 15-20% of our time -- (some
italian guy whose name starts with P. figured this efficiency out, and
over 100 years later, it's still true...).

Roger Thornhill's picture
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Mojo wrote:(BTW, I don't buy friendships. I pay for access. Don't you bait the hook or cast a fly when you pursue your interests? The example above could of as easily been used to contact a rancher in a remote part of of the world. If, let's say, I needed access to a trust department at a regional Ag Credit Union. )
I can vouch for that. If one wants access to people with money, you have to go where they are.
I built my practice by going places others were too lazy to go to. When someone's driveway is a dozen miles long, from a highway that's another 30 miles to the nearest town, you won't find any hoighty toighty brokers making sales calls. Heck, they'd get lost out where I work.
I've taken newbys out with me, on some of my jaunts into the hinterlands. I remember one time we stopped at a cattle auction, and this young'un was wanting to know what I was doing.
"Market research" I said.
In an hour, I had met two dozen guys that were cash flowing multiple seven figures. None of them show up on the prospects lists that brokers in the ivory tower can buy, yet they control more assets than 99.9% of anyone else.

Put Trader's picture
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Roger Thornhill wrote:I built my practice by going places others
were too lazy to go to. When someone's driveway is a dozen miles long,
from a highway that's another 30 miles to the nearest town, you won't
find any hoighty toighty brokers making sales calls. Heck,
they'd get lost out where I work.

Note the reference to "Hoighty toighty" brokers.  This is
illustrative of envy--there is a caste system in the financial services
industry and stock brokers are at, or very near, the top while
insurance agents are very near the bottom--down there close to the guys
who arrange financing at car dealers.

There are universities, few and far between, that offer degrees in
insurance and they find it very difficult to attract students.

Who among us is so devoid of self respect that when we decided on
our major we had actually already decided that we were one of life's
losers so we'd better major in insurance?

Roger Thornhill wrote:
In an hour, I had met two dozen guys that were cash flowing
multiple seven figures. None of them show up on the prospects lists
that brokers in the ivory tower can buy, yet they control more assets
than 99.9% of anyone else.

I'm an old Texas boy, and I've been to a few cattle auctions
myself.  There are never--as in NEVER--two dozen guys at a single
auction who control multiple millions.

There may be one or two in an area--but two dozen at a single auction
that an insurance agent stumbled on?  Give us a break.

I know, I know--it says "cash flow" not net worth or assets.  I
still think it's ridiculous, most ranches are barely breaking even much
less moving millions through their accounts.

If Roger wove a figment of his imagination that involved teaching those
ranchers how to hedge their sales or expenses with beef or corn futures
he might have come across as "Well, maybe....." but what do you think
the odds are that a bunch of ranchers are going to welcome the
insurance agent?

Roger Thornhill's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-06

Put Trader wrote: Note the reference to "Hoighty toighty" brokers.  This is illustrative of envy--there is a caste system in the financial services industry and stock brokers are at, or very near, the top while insurance agents are very near the bottom--down there close to the guys who arrange financing at car dealers.
That's funny. I've been a stock broker since long before your business hobby began.
Hoighty toighty refers to the empty shirts that talk the talk, but can't walk the walk. You sound like you're in that group.Put Trader wrote: There are universities, few and far between, that offer degrees in insurance and they find it very difficult to attract students.
What's the point in getting a degree in insurance? Actuarial science is where the talent goes, if one wants to work in Mecca.
My calling is dealing with decision makers and risk takers.
Put Trader wrote: Who among us is so devoid of self respect that when we decided on our major we had actually already decided that we were one of life's losers so we'd better major in insurance?
I only know one guy that actually majored in insurance. He's a partner at Commiskey-Kaufman. They do somewhere north of $200,000,000 in new annual life premium (and have since 1991, every year).
You haven't done 200 of anything in your whole career. Maybe you should have studied up on insurance, boy.
Put Trader wrote: I'm an old Texas boy, and I've been to a few cattle auctions myself.  There are never--as in NEVER--two dozen guys at a single auction who control multiple millions.
Those little corner auctions don't count, and I doubt you've ever prospected the way I have. Otherwise, you'd STFU. You may be from Texas, and you may be just a boy, but you sure aren't very smart.Put Trader wrote: There may be one or two in an area--but two dozen at a single auction that an insurance agent stumbled on?  Give us a break.
I've stumbled upon good prospects. It happens a lot, actually, because I'm out seeing people every day. When I go to a cattle auction (or land auction, farm sale, et al.), I have a list of suspects in mind already. I'm just going to meet them in person, and the way to meet a lot of them at once is find a place the all go. I'm a master of time management. 
I learned from one of the orginal Top of the Table members how to find wealth, in the last year before he retired. Using what I learned from him, I build lists can't be bought.
Put Trader wrote: I know, I know--it says "cash flow" not net worth or assets.  I still think it's ridiculous, most ranches are barely breaking even much less moving millions through their accounts.
You just proved that your shirt is as empty as is your skull and your CV.
You watched Farm Aid and you believed. The truth is the family farm is now the corporate farm, and there are fewer of them, but there aren't many who aren't making good money. Of course, we want you to continue to believe they are all broke. Your ignorance is good for my business.
My typical farmer/stockman has annual revenues of $600,000 to $1,500,000. He has one to five guys working for him full time, and they get their bonuses in livestock and grain (some subtle tax advantages to this that are beyond your grasp). He's incorporated, which is why ignorant liberals talk about the vanishing family farm, by omitting the fact that most small corporations are family owned.
He's got $500,000 in a demand account (you probably don't know what that is). In a year, he'll buy his wife a new Town Car, and himself a new F-150, because the older cars were approaching two years in age. Dirt roads are rough on cars, so two years is like four to you city boys.
He'll pay tuition for his three kids in college, and buy one or two of them a new car (he's a college grad, too). He'll take the family on vacation not once, but two or three times. He'll buy another section (do you know what a section is?), and a new combine or tractor (at $100,000 to $300,000 a pop). He'll write a check for most of this stuff, although some of them use offline debit cards, because the bank will credit them money back (now you're scratching your head wondering how this happens). That was one of my creative ideas that has worked great. When both my client and the bank make more money, without having to do any additional work, they show their appreciation by endorsing me with everyone who has money.
He'll write me a check for his life insurance (average $24,000), and he'll fund him and the wife's IRA. He'll pay more in commissions hedging his production than the typical broker can earn off of a $1,000,000 account without being accused of churning (you know what that threshhold is, right?).
At the end of the year, he'll have $499,000 in his demand account and he'll tell me he lost money, or that it's been a bad year.
Yeah, farmers are all losing money, going broke. Keep believing that. Your ignorance is why I've earned millions doing the things that unsuccessful people like you don't want to do.Put Trader wrote: If Roger wove a figment of his imagination that involved teaching those ranchers how to hedge their sales or expenses with beef or corn futures he might have come across as "Well, maybe....." but what do you think the odds are that a bunch of ranchers are going to welcome the insurance agent?
You again prove your ignorance beyond all doubt whatsoever.
Many agricutural professions are dangerous jobs. Every farmer has lost a friend or family member in a job related accident.
I've delivered death claims in the last few years for people crushed to death by round bales, fifth wheel trailers, or from rather innoccuos events like falling off a fence (hitting their head on a brick), or being shot due to hunter error. A few years ago, a dust explosion in a large silo killed several of my clients. That's life to those that feed your sorry arse.
Yeah, they welcome me into their homes. Gladly. They always have. You wouldn't be welcome, though. They might use you for target practice. That would at least make you useful.

Put Trader's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-08

Roger Thornhill wrote:Yeah, they welcome me into their homes.
Gladly. They always have. You wouldn't be welcome, though. They might
use you for target practice. That would at least make you useful.

What always escapes those who live fantasy lives is things like this.

We all have an insurance agent.  He or she is not a welcome
addition to our social circle, he or she is tolerated as a necessary
evil.

Nothing more and nothing less.

Tell us Roger, how did you come to sink to being an insurance
agent?  I refuse to believe that you walked across a stage
somewhere picking up a high school diploma thinking, "Yep, thirty years
from now I'll be an insurance agent......"

Put Trader's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-08

ROGER wrote:

I only know one guy that actually majored in insurance. He's a partner
at Commiskey-Kaufman. They do somewhere north of $200,000,000 in new
annual life premium (and have since 1991, every year).

Let me see if I have this right.  You pulled a name out of grab
bag and put it into this post?  Having a friend who works at a
place is something we're supposed to ooh and ah over?

Isn't that a lot like somebody saying, "I have a friend who works at JP Morgan......"  So what?

For what it's worth, Gus and Steve found it necessary to merge the firm
with another in order to stay in business.  They did well for
themselves, especially Gus, but at the end of the day he's still just
an insurance agent.

Put Trader's picture
Offline
Joined: 2005-04-08

ROGER wrote:
I've stumbled upon good prospects. It happens a lot, actually, because
I'm out seeing people every day. When I go to a cattle auction (or land
auction, farm sale, et al.), I have a list of suspects in mind already.
I'm just going to meet them in person, and the way to meet a lot of
them at once is find a place the all go. I'm a master of time
management.

Yep I can see it now.  A group of ranchers in Fort Worth for the
Fat Stock Show is having dinner at Del Friscos, and in walks Roger the
insurance guy.

Gotta know they're going to jump up and welcome him with open arms.

Put Trader's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-08

Roger Doger wrote:
Many agricutural professions are dangerous jobs. Every farmer has lost a friend or family member in a job related accident.

I've delivered death claims in the last few years for people crushed
to death by round bales, fifth wheel trailers, or from rather innoccuos
events like falling off a fence (hitting their head on a brick), or
being shot due to hunter error. A few years ago, a dust explosion in a
large silo killed several of my clients. That's life to those that feed
your sorry arse.

And, just exactly what does that have to do with the price of eggs in Greece?

Oh wait, you're getting all sensitive--you're wanting the boys and
girls who read this to know that you insurance guys are really nice
guys because when somebody dies you deliver checks?

Is that it?

Put Trader's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-08

Sensitive Roger wrote:
He'll write me a check for his life insurance (average $24,000), and
he'll fund him and the wife's IRA. He'll pay more in
commissions hedging his production than the typical broker can earn off
of a $1,000,000 account without being accused of churning (you know
what that threshhold is, right?).

Let me see if I have this right.  You have clients who are capable of funding IRA's for themselves and their wives?

Why it's hard to believe that anybody is that flush.

As for churning.  It's not based on how many dollars in
commissions an account generates, nor is it based on the losses
suffered.

It's based on something known as the turnover ratio and it is
impossible to say how many dollars in commissions a $1 milllion account
will generate.

Isn't it great that Put Trader is here to keep your BS in check?

Roger Thornhill's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-06

Put Trader wrote: What always escapes those who live fantasy lives is things like this.
The only fantasy here is that you're actually in the craft of advice.Put Trader wrote: We all have an insurance agent.  He or she is not a welcome addition to our social circle, he or she is tolerated as a necessary evil.
Most insurance agents would not want to join a club that would accept the likes of you.Put Trader wrote: Nothing more and nothing less.
In your case, you're always less.Put Trader wrote: Tell us Roger, how did you come to sink to being an insurance agent?  I refuse to believe that you walked across a stage somewhere picking up a high school diploma thinking, "Yep, thirty years from now I'll be an insurance agent......"
Selling life insurance is a calling, among those of us who know how to sell it, especially those of us who sell a lot (to quantify, a lot is 1,000+ lives per year).
You're not good enough to be a life insurance agent of note.
Go find your crack pipe, boy. Time or your fix.

Roger Thornhill's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-06

Put Trader wrote:For what it's worth, Gus and Steve found it necessary to merge the firm with another in order to stay in business.  They did well for themselves, especially Gus, but at the end of the day he's still just an insurance agent.
The difference between you and me is I know them personally, and have worked with them on joint cases.
All you know is what you can find on the lobotomy box in front of you, piker.
Go light up, crack boy.

Put Trader's picture
Offline
Joined: 2005-04-08

Roger Thornhill wrote:Put Trader wrote:For what it's worth, Gus
and Steve found it necessary to merge the firm with another in order to
stay in business.  They did well for themselves, especially Gus,
but at the end of the day he's still just an insurance agent.
The difference between you and me is I know them personally, and have worked with them on joint cases.
All you know is what you can find on the lobotomy box in front of you, piker.
Go light up, crack boy.

I too have a BBA from SMU.  As I said I am from Texas, I know my way around the state and those who make it go.

Roger Thornhill's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-06

Put Trader wrote: I too have a BBA from SMU.  As I said I am from Texas, I know my way around the state and those who make it go.
Do all crack babies go to SMU, too?
Let me guess....South Dallas is where you're from, right?

stanwbrown's picture
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Joined: 2004-12-01

Put Trader wrote: We all have an insurance agent.  He or she is not a welcome addition to our social circle, he or she is tolerated as a necessary evil.Nothing more and nothing less.
Just when you think Put doesn't share a single trait with sentient beings…..  <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

Put Trader wrote:
Roger Thornhill wrote:Put Trader wrote:For what it's worth, Gus
and Steve found it necessary to merge the firm with another in order to
stay in business.  They did well for themselves, especially Gus,
but at the end of the day he's still just an insurance agent.
The difference between you and me is I know them personally, and have worked with them on joint cases.
All you know is what you can find on the lobotomy box in front of you, piker.
Go light up, crack boy.

I too have a BBA from SMU.  As I said I am from Texas, I know my way around the state and those who make it go.

A BBA from SMU?  Wow.....in most places that's about as good as a GED from the US Mail.....

Put Trader's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-08

joedabrkr wrote:

A BBA from SMU?  Wow.....in most places that's about as good as a GED from the US Mail.....

Shows how little you know about anything outside of New York.

Years ago I shared a room with a guy from New York at a conference in
Washington DC.  He could not grasp the idea that NBC was not on
Channel 4.  New York is a great place--New Yorkers are, on
balance, dumb as stumps.

Roger Thornhill's picture
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Joined: 2005-07-06

Put Trader wrote: Years ago I shared a room with a guy from New York at a conference in Washington DC. 
I actually believe this sentence. What else did you two share? Did he give you the "common courtesy" that Gunnery Sergeant Hartman talked about?

Put Trader's picture
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Joined: 2005-04-08

Roger Thornhill wrote:Put Trader wrote: Years ago I shared a room with a guy from New York at a conference in Washington DC. 
I actually believe this sentence. What else did you two share? Did
he give you the "common courtesy" that Gunnery Sergeant Hartman talked
about?

Tell me Roger,  have you ever been to a conference where they had
you sharing rooms with somebody else--for a number of years it was all
that ever happened, especially among the younger participants.

If you didn't the only reason would be because you didn't go to any conferences.

Anyway, when you were sharing a room with a fellow participant did
you........oh never mind.  Can you grasp the immaturity of your
post?

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