Wow, the Patriots are ARROGANT!

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4th and 2, ahead by 6, 2:0X remaining in the game, on their OWN 30 yard line...and those ARROGANT S.O.B.s GO FOR IT!  They got stuffed, and we're on commercial break right now.  Manning has 2:00 to go 30 yards and teach those pr1cks a lesson.  Boy I hope it goes down that way.  Seriously, I can't stand the Pats.

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What an unreal game! Wow. I can't believe they didn't punt.

voltmoie's picture
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Football is fickle.  If he would have got a 1st down it would have been call of the year.
 
As for arrogance, I think he was just showing respect to the Indy O.  You have a chance to win the game, go for it.  Loved the call.

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Brett Favre is the clear MVP Frontrunner at this point.  Manning is winning games with luck, Favre is winning with experience and talent.

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BerkshireBull wrote:Brett Favre is the clear MVP Frontrunner at this point.  Manning is winning games with luck, Favre is winning with experience and talent.
 
Manning is what is holding his team together and that's luck?? Manning is the clear MVP frontrunner now but if the Titans get to .500 then Chris Johnson is the frontrunner......

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BerkshireBull wrote:Brett Favre is the clear MVP Frontrunner at this point.  Manning is winning games with luck, Favre is winning with experience and talent.
 
 

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iceco1d wrote:4th and 2, ahead by 6, 2:0X remaining in the game, on their OWN 30 yard line...and those ARROGANT S.O.B.s GO FOR IT!  They got stuffed, and we're on commercial break right now.  Manning has 2:00 to go 30 yards and teach those pr1cks a lesson.  Boy I hope it goes down that way.  Seriously, I can't stand the Pats.
 
Actually, just the opposite.  I think Belechik didn't trust his defense to hold them, and felt that the offense was on a roll and had a better shot.  If they had made that 1st down, I think game was over.  It's a game of inches, and as much as a like Welker, he made the mistake of not running the route a bit further.  Yes, he got pushed back behind the marker after he caught the ball (he was bobbling it), but the game was riding on that play.  You gotta be sure. 

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The 4th down play went to Faulk and they were sending the house, Brady didn't have time to wait. A decision like that could be argued all day, but Belichek knows his team and he knows they weren't stopping Manning, whether it be 30 yards or 70 yards. Brady throwing a 2 yard pass is a higher percentage then stopping Manning with that amount of time. Just a legendary game involving two of the greatest players the sport has ever seen. Awesome.

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iceco1d wrote:I can't believe this is even a discussion.  4th and 2 from your own 30 yard line with 2 minutes to play and a 6 point lead, you punt the effing ball.  It's not even a question. 
 
 
 
I love to see the Pats lose but in this case I'm going to defer to the football expert, the evil hoodie.

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voltmoie wrote:iceco1d wrote:I can't believe this is even a discussion.  4th and 2 from your own 30 yard line with 2 minutes to play and a 6 point lead, you punt the effing ball.  It's not even a question. 
 
 
 
I love to see the Pats lose but in this case I'm going to defer to the football expert, the evil hoodie.
 
Agree 100% Volt.  What would you trust more, your Hall of Fame QB to get 2 yds against a defense that you've torched for 34 pts, or your defense that has been torched by another Hall of Fame QB and the undisputed BEST closer to a football game?  I mean they would have given Manning 2 minutes to drive 60-70 yards with a timeout in his back pocket.  HE WAS WINNING THE GAME EITHER WAY! 

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I agree, also. The Colts would have won anyways. The only shot the pats had was converting, which they are normally pretty good at, as much as I hate to admit it. I was biting my nails when Belichick decided to go for it. The bad call was leaving himself with no timeouts.

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I agree.  And believe it or not, after watching the last 5 minutes of the game, it becomes even more clear why Hoodie wanted to to keep the ball out of Manning's hands.
 
That has to be one of the top 5 turnarounds I have witnessed.  Unfortunatley, most of the ones I have witnessed, we (Pats) were on the winning side.
 
Actually, Red Sox down 0-3 in the ALCS  to the Yanks is probably #1

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My favorite was after the game on ESPN Trent Dilfer spent 10 minutes going off about how terrible a call it was, and how even if they converted the 4th down he still would have said it was a terrible call.  STFU Trent Dilfer!  Just because you were just as incompetent of an NFL QB as the guy you replaced on the show (Sean Salisbury) and definitely would not have converted that play doesn't mean that 3 time SB champion Tom Brady shouldn't have been entrusted to convert it.  Trent Freaking Dilfer gracing us with his harsh criticism of the coaching decisions of the greatest NFL coach of our generation.  TRENT DILFER!!

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3rdyrp2 wrote:My favorite was after the game on ESPN Trent Dilfer spent 10 minutes going off about how terrible a call it was, and how even if they converted the 4th down he still would have said it was a terrible call.  STFU Trent Dilfer!  Just because you were just as incompetent of an NFL QB as the guy you replaced on the show (Sean Salisbury) and definitely would not have converted that play doesn't mean that 3 time SB champion Tom Brady shouldn't have been entrusted to convert it.  Trent Freaking Dilfer gracing us with his harsh criticism of the coaching decisions of the greatest NFL coach of our generation.  TRENT DILFER!!
 
 EXACTLY. It is unreal these f***ing talking heads like Dilfer, Millen, Tom Jackson etc. who were marginal at best and now they have all of the answers, STFU!!

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I hate the Hoodie, his whole persona bothers me. We all know that if he had converted the 4th it would be been a "gutsy, brilliant call from a coach that just keeps getting better and knows how to win" blah blah blah ... Arm chair QBs are idiots. He's still as great of a coach today as he was yesterday. 
 
The real debate is will Charlie the HUTT make the same call for the Pats next year?
 

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iceco1d wrote:I can't believe this is even a discussion.  4th and 2 from your own 30 yard line with 2 minutes to play and a 6 point lead, you punt the effing ball.  It's not even a question. Agreed....I mean, seriously, a field goal attempt would have made more sense. (joking, of course)If you can guarantee 2.5 yards every play, you will win every game. Two yards is alot harder than it looks, this wasn't a time to take chances...punt the ball and make them throw long.

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You wanna talk about taking chances?  Handing the ball to Peyton Manning at his own 35 with 2 minutes to play and a TO at his disposal.  Now thats taking a chance. 
 
BTW, even the Browns average at least 2.5 yards per play every game.  The Pats probably averaged somewhere between 6-10 yds per play last night.  Its not necessarily a great feat.

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Still@jones wrote: iceco1d wrote:I can't believe this is even a discussion.  4th and 2 from your own 30 yard line with 2 minutes to play and a 6 point lead, you punt the effing ball.  It's not even a question. Agreed....I mean, seriously, a field goal attempt would have made more sense. (joking, of course)If you can guarantee 2.5 yards every play, you will win every game. Two yards is alot harder than it looks, this wasn't a time to take chances...punt the ball and make them throw long.
 
Only a guy that's never played football would say that...  Of course we figured that out when you drive around with dancing bear stickers on your car.

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Ball on the 20 - 1st down.Ball on the 22.5 - 2nd down.Ball on the 25 - 3rd down.
Ball on the 27.5 - 4th down.
Ball on the 30 - 1st down.
Ball on the 32.5 - 2nd down.
....you get the point.

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Ice, what makes coaches like Bill Belichick separate from their peers?  Its their ability to not always go by the book and to make a decision based off of your gut and not off of conventional methods.  If Belichick always went by the book then he'd be Dom Capers or Herman Edwards or a high school coach.  I'm not saying it was a good call, but I can understand why he made it.  Would he have done that had Alex Smith been on the other sideline instead of Peyton Manning?  Ha!  Geez, what are the odds that Peyton would have driven them downfield for the win had they punted?  75%?  So the odds are they would have lost anyways.  The guy is being crucified for making a gut decision.  I think a worse decision was for Andy Reid to kick a FG at the end of the game last week instead of going for it on 4th since the Eagles were down by a TD. 

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iceco1d wrote:Yeah, I guess you guys are right.  It's only the talking heads that think that was a crap call.  Tony Dunge, Phil Simms, Rodney Harrison, Brian Billick, Shannon Sharpe...what a bunch of hacks.  

 
The only guy on your list whose opinion I respect is Tony Dungy.  But Tony Dungy was well known an ULTRA conservative coach.  He'd be the last coach I would expect to do what Belichick did.  Shannon Sharpe?  You think he's got a job because his opinions are well thought out and articulate?  Brian Billick?  He was fired because his offense was offensive.  It would be a funny moment the day that Belichick re-considers a decision he made based off of Brian Billick thinking it wasn't a smart move.  Rodney Harrison?  He was on the Pats defense last year.  He's spent his last 6 years expecting Belichick to trust his unit (No pun intended).  Harrison is probably mad at Belichick because he didn't trust the defense that he helped anchor for the last half decade.  His opinion is heavily biased.

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3rdyrp2 wrote:
Ice, what makes coaches like Bill Belichick separate from their peers?  Its their ability to not always go by the book and to make a decision based off of your gut and not off of conventional methods.  If Belichick always went by the book then he'd be Dom Capers or Herman Edwards or a high school coach.  I'm not saying it was a good call, but I can understand why he made it.  Would he have done that had Alex Smith been on the other sideline instead of Peyton Manning?  Ha!  Geez, what are the odds that Peyton would have driven them downfield for the win had they punted?  75%?  So the odds are they would have lost anyways.  The guy is being crucified for making a gut decision.  I think a worse decision was for Andy Reid to kick a FG at the end of the game last week instead of going for it on 4th since the Eagles were down by a TD. 
 
....and reid kicked 3 fgs this week with 4th and goal from the 1. Who has a bigger front butt, Reid or Weis ?
 
 

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Hate the Pats.  Hate their coach.   He's arrogant. 
 
He made the smart football move.   This wasn't done against some team with a hack quarterback on the other side.  This was done against a team with the best QB in the league with lots of time on the clock.
 
Let's take a guess at the odds of success.   By going for it, NE has two chances to win.  If they get the first down they win.  If they don't get the first down and stop Ind from scoring a touchdown from the 30, they win.  By kicking, they win if they can stop Indianapolis from scoring a touchdown with probably about a 65 yard drive.
 
As a guess, NE probably had about a 75% chance  getting a first down and then probably a 35% chance of stopping a touchdown. 
 
If they punted, they probably had about a 75% chance of stopping the touchdown.  If my odds are anywhere close to being correct, NE made the right move. 

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Played football in high school. Stopped watching after that. But this interested me.

Statistically speaking, the probability is even higher than anon suggests. 4th down conversions have a 83% chance of succeeding.

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I agree that Bellichick likely either did it out of arrogance or to be unpredictable. But, read David Romer's paper on "Do Firms Maximize? Evidence from the National Football League". Teams would maximize their chances of winning, if they go for it in the 4th quarter on any 4th and short.

I'm not looking at it from any other angle than emotionless. Who does he coach? Who were they playing?

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iceco1d wrote: Stats don't apply here.  Most 4th downs that get attempted, are either a) 4th & inches, OR b) attempted by the team that is LOSING, hence the team that is WINNING is playing a soft defense to protect against the big play, and likely giving up more stuff underneath and/or short runs.I understand the logic, and the attempt to defend this call.  Bellichick did it out of arrogance.  And even if he didn't, it was still the WRONG call.  As far as all of this "being scared of the Colts offense" - they dominated the Colts for 2 1/2 quarters.  Without a few unlikely turnovers, this conversation wouldn't even be happening.  It's not that they COULDN'T stop the Colts, they started playing defense to not get beat deep, and allowed underneath stuff.  By the way, Mike Ditka, Keyshawn Johnson, and Tom Jackson are on ESPN right now agreeing with me, too.
 
Ok. The initial comment was The Pats are arrogant. Yes they are. Just a few weeks ago they were throwing the ball with a backup QB and a 50pt lead. Belichek is arrogant and most of the time he is right. He may of blown this call, but if they got the first it wouldnt even be talked about today. Instead because the genius F'ed up the entire sports world wants to pummel him. That is the way it works. The media, sports or otherwise, wants to pile on and kick people after the fact. You can keep Trent Dilfer, Tom Jackson, Mike Ditka, Keyshawn, Teddy Bruschi. Ice you are better than that. These clowns are talking heads because that is the only job people will pay them to do. That doesn't mean their opinion is right. The bottom line is the Pats lost this game the moment Maroney fumbled on the 1 inch line and Belichek was doing all he could to prevent that.

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iceco1d wrote: PSS - Tedy Bruschi agrees with me too.
 
Lol.  I will concede that the ENTIRE media is killing Belichick.  Main reason:  Everybody knows that Belichick is the most arrogant coach in all of sports and people just salivate for the chance to say he is wrong.  With Bruschi, like I said about Rodney Harrison, he helped anchor that defense over the past decade.  He has been programmed to believe that the Patriots defense will stop whatever challenge comes their way.  He has always expected the coach to trust his defense.  Unfortunately for him, Rodney Harrison isn't walking through that door.  Tedy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel aren't walking through that door.  Ellis Hobbs and Asante Samuel aren't walking through that door.
 
Last word:  If they were in NE, the call would have been to punt.  The crowd there would have been loud enough to cause problems for Manning calling plays at the line of scrimmage.  Last night though, it would have been pure silence and Manning could have slapped Jeff Saturday's ass and fans in the nosebleeds could have heard the smack.  The field would have been Mannings playground in those last 2 minutes. 

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mlgone wrote:PUNT ABSOLUTLEYTHAT'SBECAUSEURAPUZZY

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voltmoie wrote: mlgone wrote:PUNT ABSOLUTLEYTHAT'SBECAUSEURAPUZZY

 
 
voltmoie wrote: Jebediah wrote:voltmoie wrote:Hey man, embrace your homosexual stalker tendencies.   You've made 8 posts on this thread since Windy's last.  Be honest with us, do you have his picture as your screen saver? You and the Jew hater seem to have alot in common.

 
 
Let me see if I have this straight.  It is pretty obvious I dislike windy.  You on the other hand joined into a thread to defend another dude, have been counting my posts, and have a dude as your avatar.  Once again, he who argues vehemently that someone else is gay is often time projecting.Do you deny you stalk men on internet forums?
 
 
 
Who is the stalker again?

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iceco1d wrote:I'm better than that?  I'm jumping on the pile in retrospect?  Read my first post Ron; I posted this thread before I knew the outcome.  And categorizing some of these guys as "talking heads" is borderline insulting. 
 
No No, I know your not piling on. I was the first one to answer your post. The game wasn't over. I know. I am just saying you don't need to use the talking heads or Hall of Famers turned gurus to prove your point. That is what I meant by you being better than that. If it is your opinion, go with it. You don't need those strokes to prove your point.

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Jebediah wrote:voltmoie wrote: mlgone wrote:PUNT ABSOLUTLEYTHAT'SBECAUSEURAPUZZY

 
 
voltmoie wrote: Jebediah wrote:voltmoie wrote:Hey man, embrace your homosexual stalker tendencies.   You've made 8 posts on this thread since Windy's last.  Be honest with us, do you have his picture as your screen saver? You and the Jew hater seem to have alot in common.

 
 
Let me see if I have this straight.  It is pretty obvious I dislike windy.  You on the other hand joined into a thread to defend another dude, have been counting my posts, and have a dude as your avatar.  Once again, he who argues vehemently that someone else is gay is often time projecting.Do you deny you stalk men on internet forums?
 
 
 
Who is the stalker again?ML .. make a mistake and post with your Jeb. screenname?  At least we've connect two dots now.

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Gruden and Cris Carter agree with Belichek, what does that mean ? Zip!

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Both Jaworski and Gruden are siding w/Belichick on the call.  Maybe after debating and hearing both sides of the argument the experts are starting to turn a new leaf.

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This is unrelated but where were all of these Peyton Manning lovers 5 years ago. I have always been a huge fan and 5 years ago the beating he took was relentlesss. Can't win the big one, Can't beat Patriots, Can't beat Florida, He is overrated, He is a poor mans Dan Marino, He has bad body language on the field, He always pouts after bad plays, His line of scrimmage movements stop momentum, blah blah blah. Now all of the sudden everyone is on his train ? This is why I hate these talking heads. They are never out in front, they only comment after the fact.

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As a Colts fan, I'll tell you that I thought Belichick absolutely made the right call.  Come on, Ice...Everybody at Lucas Oil Stadium KNEW what was going to happen when the Pats punted.  Of course, Manning was going to drive the ball 70 yards and score with 13 seconds on the clock.  Belichick sensed that the momentum had changed and knew that he had to do what he could to keep Manning off the field.  It didn't matter if it was 30 yards or 70 yards...Manning has shown the ability to go 90 yards in less than two minutes, so yardage wasn't an issue.  Had Belichick told the defense to let Payton score on the first play from scrimmage, Brady would have had nearly two minutes to do the same and I like his chances almost as much as I like Manning's.  That may sound like crazy talk, but from someone who has had a vested intedest in this matchup long before it was sexy, it has evolved into whoever has the ball last is gonna win.

 
Look, we can debate this until eternity, but I'll submit that Belichick made the right call and wins that game 4 out of 5 times.  Indy's defense was jacked up and made a great play, but I honestly expected it to go the other way and I think Belichick was playing the odds and trying to give his team the best chance to win (1) on the road and (2) against what is likely the best team in the AFC, especially if they get healthy.  I'll give you Belichick's arrogance.  I can't stand the man's persona, but I very much respect what he's done in New England.  Tom Brady doesn't get in the HOF without Bill Belichick.
 
That's my two pennies.

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Hey Indy, where've you been?
As a long suffering Jets fan and 26 year season ticket holder, i hate Belicheck more than i hate anyone in professional sports. But like Indy said, give the man his due.
You have to believe that he knows his team, knows what they can do, and as one local commentator said today, he realized that the colts are like his teams Kryptonite. And he made his decision based on that, and probably like you said Indy, the odds were with him. It just didnt work out this time. Imagine if it did...he would be every Bostonians hero.
All i can hope is that doing what he did has demoralized his defense, knowing that he doesnt have the confidence that they can step up, and they let the Jets run amock over them this Sunday. Doubt it.
Whatever, i still hate his f'in guts

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I been movin'!
 
Rodney Harrison and Teddy Bruschi may disagree, but Belichick's offense is the better side of the team these days and I think Belichick knows it.

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Indyone wrote: As a Colts fan, I'll tell you that I thought Belichick absolutely made the right call.  Come on, Ice...Everybody at Lucas Oil Stadium KNEW what was going to happen when the Pats punted.  Of course, Manning was going to drive the ball 70 yards and score with 13 seconds on the clock.  Belichick sensed that the momentum had changed and knew that he had to do what he could to keep Manning off the field.  It didn't matter if it was 30 yards or 70 yards...Manning has shown the ability to go 90 yards in less than two minutes, so yardage wasn't an issue.  Had Belichick told the defense to let Payton score on the first play from scrimmage, Brady would have had nearly two minutes to do the same and I like his chances almost as much as I like Manning's.  That may sound like crazy talk, but from someone who has had a vested intedest in this matchup long before it was sexy, it has evolved into whoever has the ball last is gonna win.

 
Look, we can debate this until eternity, but I'll submit that Belichick made the right call and wins that game 4 out of 5 times.  Indy's defense was jacked up and made a great play, but I honestly expected it to go the other way and I think Belichick was playing the odds and trying to give his team the best chance to win (1) on the road and (2) against what is likely the best team in the AFC, especially if they get healthy.  I'll give you Belichick's arrogance.  I can't stand the man's persona, but I very much respect what he's done in New England.  Tom Brady doesn't get in the HOF without Bill Belichick.
 
That's my two pennies.

Finally, someone who understands the Colts/Pats history. Last team with the ball usually wins.

Indyone, I'm a diehard Pats fan and was crushed when they lost that game but I agree with the call 100%. Problem is, when you gamble like that, you better win. Most Pats fans agreed with the call.

Why do I have a feeling it will be a rematch again in January????

SFB, Sorry man.....my pain was eased somewhat by watching BB mentally destroy Sanchizzzzzeee the following week....

OK, gotta get on this flight in a few hours to New Orleans to see if my Pats can stop the Saints...should be a blast!!!!

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Yup, it was brutal. Saints are unreal and the city was electric all weekend before the game. The fans are pretty passionate.

Oh, Quags, are you jumping on the bandwagon or are you just routing for anyone who beats the pats? Show yourself!

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I'll go for anyone that beats the Pat's!! However, I am concerned that my Colts may meet them in the Superbowl and the Saints are very intimidating at this point.
 
The Pats have no defense, so we can write them off. The Saints appear to have it all this year. I can still remember them as the Ain'ts...not the same team.
 
Go Colts!  
 
Superbowl score...Colts 35...Saints 31.

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