We are delusional

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52new's picture
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I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.

noggin's picture
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52new wrote:I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.
 
He's not in the grave, re: Easter.

Spaceman Spiff's picture
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Being, as you might have guessed, an evangelical christian conservative republican (well, let's just stop with conservative) why is it my fault that the progressives are trying to shove health care down our throat? 
 
Why is it my fault that Carter and Clinton decided that everyone in the country deserved to get a loan?  Why is it my fault that banks and credit card companies decided that it was OK to loan $500K to a guy making $50K a year?  What does my religion have to do with that? 
 
We've never won a war?  Seriously?  Did your history book not include anything about WW2 or WW1 or the battle for independance from the British? 
 
What cultural and spiritual headway would you like our country to be making?  You want to put prayer back in schools?  You want to allow my kid to get up in front of her class and pray at graduation?  You want to put the 10 commandments back up on the wall in courtrooms across the country?  How about putting a nativity scene back on town squares or CHRISTmas trees back in the White House?  How about allowing anyone anywhere to say Merry Christmas without fear of losing his or her job. 
 
But that's probably not what you're talking about.  Those things are all a part of the evil evangelical christian conservative agenda.  Folks like you have been trying to get rid of us for 50 years or so.  Hmmm...you get rid of the evangelical christian influences in the country and the place falls apart.  Do you think there might be a correlation?  Nah, that's just my simple evangelical christian conservative mind talking there.  

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B24
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Go away Spiff.

Milyunair's picture
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With respect to your Vietnam and life experience, you must be wise.

 
As is pointed out, Christ is transformed. We as advisors, especially after a year like this, have to strive to renew and transform ourselves, somehow become enthusiastic about the business again.
 
Perhaps the condition you lament is the condition of humanity itself. Since the world population has doubled since you and I were kids, you could argue that managing the human condition is twice as much work.
 
Like Nick Murray used to say about owning stocks for the long haul, something like, " the only rational conclusion is optimism. "
 
For Christians,  Christ is being born and rising. It's kind of hard to go there - imagine the mother standing out there holding God in her arms. That requires a leap of faith, no logic.
 
Part of that is, on Christmas Christ is being born, on Easter rising. Christ, God, The Church exist outside of time. This is a mystery and no one has a monopoly on the knowing or doing of The Faith.
 
Every liturgy, the communion is turned into the body and blood of Christ. That regular miracle is greater than any weeping icons or even world peace.
 
I don't see what any of this has to do with politics, or the right or the left. Look at all of the liberal Catholics who put their faith in the Church.
 
Men tend to want to project their own ego on everything, and embellish the truth. The True Church is not the church that makes people feel guilty or prescribes certain behaviors or actions.
 
We have to vigilant about our assumptions in all aspects of consciousness - how we approach our work, others, and especially be vigilant about how these assumptions color our own feelings about ourselves.
 
We all offend continually, ironically, I'm thinking for myself, the first step for me in 2010 is to apologize for offending and take responsibility for taking a positive view about my own consciousness and humanity, remembering the " good friends we have had, good friends we have lost" of past years and decades.
 
 

52new's picture
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Spaceman Spiff wrote: Being, as you might have guessed, an evangelical christian conservative republican (well, let's just stop with conservative) why is it my fault that the progressives are trying to shove health care down our throat? 
 
Why is it my fault that Carter and Clinton decided that everyone in the country deserved to get a loan?  Why is it my fault that banks and credit card companies decided that it was OK to loan $500K to a guy making $50K a year?  What does my religion have to do with that? 
 
We've never won a war?  Seriously?  Did your history book not include anything about WW2 or WW1 or the battle for independance from the British? 
 
What cultural and spiritual headway would you like our country to be making?  You want to put prayer back in schools?  You want to allow my kid to get up in front of her class and pray at graduation?  You want to put the 10 commandments back up on the wall in courtrooms across the country?  How about putting a nativity scene back on town squares or CHRISTmas trees back in the White House?  How about allowing anyone anywhere to say Merry Christmas without fear of losing his or her job. 
 
But that's probably not what you're talking about.  Those things are all a part of the evil evangelical christian conservative agenda.  Folks like you have been trying to get rid of us for 50 years or so.  Hmmm...you get rid of the evangelical christian influences in the country and the place falls apart.  Do you think there might be a correlation?  Nah, that's just my simple evangelical christian conservative mind talking there.  

Delusional. And don't ever let the facts get in the way of your belief system. Just a couple of things about history. US factories and Russian blood won WW2. We were late in the game to WW1. We at best tipped the scales after Europe bled itself dry. They weren't our wins. We just ended up on the winning side. And our born again pres GW took over a pretty strong peaceful economy in 2000. How're we doing now? You neocon nazis are dangerous to all living creatures. Your racist, my way is the only way mentality is the greatest danger to the world. Sounds like Jones is the perfect place for you.

Milyunair's picture
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Edit below.

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B24
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52new wrote: Spaceman Spiff wrote: Being, as you might have guessed, an evangelical christian conservative republican (well, let's just stop with conservative) why is it my fault that the progressives are trying to shove health care down our throat? 
 
Why is it my fault that Carter and Clinton decided that everyone in the country deserved to get a loan?  Why is it my fault that banks and credit card companies decided that it was OK to loan $500K to a guy making $50K a year?  What does my religion have to do with that? 
 
We've never won a war?  Seriously?  Did your history book not include anything about WW2 or WW1 or the battle for independance from the British? 
 
What cultural and spiritual headway would you like our country to be making?  You want to put prayer back in schools?  You want to allow my kid to get up in front of her class and pray at graduation?  You want to put the 10 commandments back up on the wall in courtrooms across the country?  How about putting a nativity scene back on town squares or CHRISTmas trees back in the White House?  How about allowing anyone anywhere to say Merry Christmas without fear of losing his or her job. 
 
But that's probably not what you're talking about.  Those things are all a part of the evil evangelical christian conservative agenda.  Folks like you have been trying to get rid of us for 50 years or so.  Hmmm...you get rid of the evangelical christian influences in the country and the place falls apart.  Do you think there might be a correlation?  Nah, that's just my simple evangelical christian conservative mind talking there.   Delusional. And don't ever let the facts get in the way of your belief system. Just a couple of things about history. US factories and Russian blood won WW2. We were late in the game to WW1. We at best tipped the scales after Europe bled itself dry. They weren't our wins. We just ended up on the winning side. And our born again pres GW took over a pretty strong peaceful economy in 2000. How're we doing now? You neocon nazis are dangerous to all living creatures. Your racist, my way is the only way mentality is the greatest danger to the world. Sounds like Jones is the perfect place for you.
 
I agree with your summary of Spiff et.al.  Just don't be confused into thinking everyone at Jones thinks like him.  Even remotely.  He is a loser and a biggot.

Milyunair's picture
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Milyunair wrote:
I just think anger is a worthless emotion. Of course I have to deal with it, but how does anger move the ball forward?
I think our anger and disillusion is being exploited by politicians right and left. We are left to argue over the crumbs of our failures and deny success.
 
I can think of some success that has come out of the Vietnam war? Have you ever gone back for a visit, it might help you. Just a thought. Humanity is imperfect by nature.
 
It's a lot easier to be angry than to try to transform your own humanity. No matter what your brand of faith, that effort may be why we are here and the reason for the season.
 
It is just possible that your past experiences - and the distance between then and now - is a gift. What if that's true?
 
If you're really the person you say you are, you must be seeking more than little logical victories on some South Seas forum.

52new's picture
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Milyunair wrote: With respect to your Vietnam and life experience, you must be wise.

 
As is pointed out, Christ is transformed. We as advisors, especially after a year like this, have to strive to renew and transform ourselves, somehow become enthusiastic about the business again.
 
Perhaps the condition you lament is the condition of humanity itself. Since the world population has doubled since you and I were kids, you could argue that managing the human condition is twice as much work.
 
Like Nick Murray used to say about owning stocks for the long haul, something like, " the only rational conclusion is optimism. "
 
For Christians,  Christ is being born and rising. It's kind of hard to go there - imagine the mother standing out there holding God in her arms. That requires a leap of faith, no logic.
 
Part of that is, on Christmas Christ is being born, on Easter rising. Christ, God, The Church exist outside of time. This is a mystery and no one has a monopoly on the knowing or doing of The Faith.
 
Every liturgy, the communion is turned into the body and blood of Christ. That regular miracle is greater than any weeping icons or even world peace.
 
I don't see what any of this has to do with politics, or the right or the left. Look at all of the liberal Catholics who put their faith in the Church.
 
Men tend to want to project their own ego on everything, and embellish the truth. The True Church is not the church that makes people feel guilty or prescribes certain behaviors or actions.
 
We have to vigilant about our assumptions in all aspects of consciousness - how we approach our work, others, and especially be vigilant about how these assumptions color our own feelings about ourselves.
 
We all offend continually, ironically, I'm thinking for myself, the first step for me in 2010 is to apologize for offending and take responsibility for taking a positive view about my own consciousness and humanity, remembering the " good friends we have had, good friends we have lost" of past years and decades.
 
 

I was raised Catholic. I don't put Catholics in the same category as evangelical christians. While I have issues with the Catholic church, I have to respect a theology that allows such spiritual visionaries as Thomas Merton. In addition, Jesuit universities have been some of the greatest learning institutions, plus Jesuits have a great amount of respect for other cultures. My concern with the born again mentality is that I believ it's only a step away from anarchy and even terrorism. I appreciate your post and I apologize if my fervor insulted you.

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Not at all, I respect you.
 
I share your concern about fundamentalism of all stripes.
 
I had a Buddhist college teacher once, who told me, " I believe you have to choose your religion for yourself, and believe it to the exclusion of all others. I grew up in Japan, and I believe Buddhism is the True Way. If you're asking me , do I think you should become a Buddhist, I would say, it would probably be easier and more meaningful for you to believe Christianity to the exclusion of all others, since you grew up in a Christian culture and a lot of the meaning and joy of the affirmation of faith is cultural."
 
Who understands the Jesuits, or the Fathers of the Eastern Orthodox church, who understands - Sponge Bob? It's an education problem, but education has been corrupted by political economics.
 
I see a convergence in America to the obvious, I don't think the "right" will be getting a lot of mileage out of the traditional hot buttons. We all have gay family members, or family members who exercise free will and choose abortion. Suicide is a right. I love economics, and I think fundamentalism is bad economics, in the sense that mixing politics and religion is bad for both.
 
 

52new's picture
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HH The Dali Lama says that you should practise the religion you were born to. But if that's not working for you, he thinks his is the way to go.

Still@jones's picture
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I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones...). However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection. I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used...which I believe they were.

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I believe your people now control the executive and Congress. Let's focus on the results you get going forward. Your obsession with evangelicals is starting to look like a  red herring. In a few hours, it will be next year. It's going to get progressively harder to blame the right.

 
Time to focus on the numbers and results wrought by this regime.

Ron 14's picture
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52new wrote:I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.
 
There are dangerous radicals that make up a small percentage of all religions. It has been that way for hundreds of years. To make a blanket statement like yours in the direction of conservative evangelical christians deflates your entire argument. Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ron 14 wrote:52new wrote:I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.
 
There are dangerous radicals that make up a small percentage of all religions. It has been that way for hundreds of years. To make a blanket statement like yours in the direction of conservative evangelical christians deflates your entire argument. Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!!!!! I agree. Happy Holidays!just kidding...Merry Christmas

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Being a Vietnam Vet doesn't in and of it self mean jack sh*t about your ability to 'understand' anything.
 
The reason we've lost the wars is that people who are not able to stomach what WAR really is try to limit how we participate. It's the people that put arbitrary and uneccessary rules on war that keep us from winning. No one argues that we aren't the most powerful military in the world. But when we go to war we have alot of limitations whereas the enemy can use children or hide in schools knowing that we won't go in. Our enemies lack the same thinking.
 
As for healthcare reform --- well the fact that the CBO says that it will cost additional BILLIONS of dollars a year versus the stated goal of saving money should be cause for concern.
 
I don't know anyone that doesn't think that Cheap, Available, and Quality healtcare isn't a great idea. The problem is that no one seems to have been able to come up with a plan that does that. The Obama Administration has somehow convinced alot of people that we need "CHANGE" without really conceiving if the change is for the better for the masses. I'm not opposed to good healthcare reform, I'm opposed to THIS HEALTHCARE REFORM.
 
I would argue that the biggest threat is actually the Apathy that encompasses a large portion of society. The fact that people feel it's the government's responsibility to legislate ethics or morality; the government's responsibility to take care of those in need and not taking that responsibility unto themselves. That to me is the problem.
 
People used to turn to the Church for that guidance, now they want to give that to the government. The problem is, you can switch churches if you don't agree. You can't switch the US Government unless MOST people agree. Taking away your individual right to choose is the scariest and most troubling trend to me.

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Well put LSU -
 
 Action that would have him turning in his grave - oops, nothing like someone ripping Christians without basic knowledge of Christ
 
 

52new's picture
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To LSU ,great place to go to school by the way. Rules in warfare are a sign of societal advancement. But I agree with you to an extent. If we were free to do what it takes to win insurgent wars, we would win them easily. In history, only one general ever won a war in Afganistan. That was Alexander the Great. He would approach each tribal group and tell them, "either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery". It worked. I just don't see us doing that. And the broader question is, what are we doing there in the first place? We went into Islamic countries whith no idea about their culture and traditions. Same mistake we made in Vietnam, but at least in Vietnam we had a legitimate concern with the communist domino effect.
There are plenty of good models for healthcare reform. Western Europe puts us to shame. They have better, more efficient systems with better outcomes and happier citizens. Don't believe the insurance propaganda about long waiting lines and rationing. In the US over half the money spent on healthcare is spent the last six months of our lives anf offers little or no benefit to the majority of patients. What the healthcare plan will cost, would be spent anyway. In other words, the cost of healthcare reform would be spent with or without the reform measures. At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient.
With respect to religion, my concern is the mindlessness and intolerance of the evangelicals. I consider them dangerous to all of our freedom. Our cultural morality, generally speaking is no worse now than at any time in history. We are always a step away from savages, and a step away from enlightenment.

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 "either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery".

 
From my perspective, this sounds a lot like Chicago politics run amok. I don't know where you get your energy, you guys are driving the stagecoach now, I'm holding on for dear life.
 
Please be careful and don't forget about the passengers.

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52new wrote: To LSU ,great place to go to school by the way. Rules in warfare are a sign of societal advancement. But I agree with you to an extent. If we were free to do what it takes to win insurgent wars, we would win them easily. In history, only one general ever won a war in Afganistan. That was Alexander the Great. He would approach each tribal group and tell them, "either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery". It worked. I just don't see us doing that. And the broader question is, what are we doing there in the first place? We went into Islamic countries whith no idea about their culture and traditions. Same mistake we made in Vietnam, but at least in Vietnam we had a legitimate concern with the communist domino effect.
There are plenty of good models for healthcare reform. Western Europe puts us to shame. They have better, more efficient systems with better outcomes and happier citizens. Don't believe the insurance propaganda about long waiting lines and rationing. In the US over half the money spent on healthcare is spent the last six months of our lives anf offers little or no benefit to the majority of patients. What the healthcare plan will cost, would be spent anyway. In other words, the cost of healthcare reform would be spent with or without the reform measures. At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient.
With respect to religion, my concern is the mindlessness and intolerance of the evangelicals. I consider them dangerous to all of our freedom. Our cultural morality, generally speaking is no worse now than at any time in history. We are always a step away from savages, and a step away from enlightenment.

So you are 58 years old?

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I've been around the world. There is no place like home. You are able to write your thoughts here in public for all to see with no fear. It's kind of like being with WFC. It sure isn't perfect but where is better? Our ability to complain about ourselves is something to be treasured and defended. Not many other places a guy can be basically penniless and with nothing more than a phone, his wits and hard work receive some of the highest wages ever paid in the history of the world.
 
Be glad you were not brought up in a Madrassa.

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Still@jones wrote: I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. Unless you are gay or have, perform, or condone abortion.  They don't seem to be so good then.  My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones...). However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection.  Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her.
I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses i.e. lies that GW's administration created and perpetuated - which were taken as gospel by the sheep on the right and those southern Christians who followed them.  No one doubts that he's an idiot, but he couldn't have been that dumb) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used...which I believe they were.

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"Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her. "

 
I'm not a Palin fan, and the Republicans need to find a better candidate, but that quote is completely inaccurate.   If you recall, McCain's campaign had completely stalled and he was getting crushed and going in the wrong direction.  His pick of her gave the campaign instant life and momentum.   There isn't someone else who he could have picked that would have allowed him to win.  The problem with the McCain campaign was McCain.  He was a weak candidate.  The election was one in which one was either For Obama or Against Obama.  Elections can't be won that way.  A party must have a candidate who can excite the party.

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anonymous wrote:"Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her. "

 
I'm not a Palin fan, and the Republicans need to find a better candidate, but that quote is completely inaccurate.   If you recall, McCain's campaign had completely stalled and he was getting crushed and going in the wrong direction.  His pick of her gave the campaign instant life and momentum.   There isn't someone else who he could have picked that would have allowed him to win.  The problem with the McCain campaign was McCain.  He was a weak candidate.  The election was one in which one was either For Obama or Against Obama.  Elections can't be won that way.  A party must have a candidate who can excite the party.
 
Hee hee, don't confuse the blasphemer with facts.

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52new wrote: I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.

Were you a Vietnam WAR veteran? Or just served in the same decade that the vietnam war ended in?

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imabroker wrote:Still@jones wrote: I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. Unless you are gay or have, perform, or condone abortion.  They don't seem to be so good then.  My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones...). However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection.  Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her.
I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses i.e. lies that GW's administration created and perpetuated - which were taken as gospel by the sheep on the right and those southern Christians who followed them.  No one doubts that he's an idiot, but he couldn't have been that dumb) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used...which I believe they were. Wow! My first time being bashed for my Right-Wing views!!!!

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imabroker wrote:Still@jones wrote: I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. Unless you are gay or have, perform, or condone abortion.  They don't seem to be so good then.  My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones...). However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection.  Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her.
I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses i.e. lies that GW's administration created and perpetuated - which were taken as gospel by the sheep on the right and those southern Christians who followed them.  No one doubts that he's an idiot, but he couldn't have been that dumb) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used...which I believe they were. Yes.  Being against the killing of unborn children is a bad thing.As for Palin, the woman had a 90% approval rating in Alaska until the presidential election.  She gave up being a rock star to run.  She's not any dumber than Biden.  People think she is dumber than dirt simply because of her accent and the fact that in Alaska things are a little different.What did you want Bush to do?  "Here is my strategery:  Rather than have the terrorists attack us here in the U.S. on our soil, we will take over a sovereign nation, and while we're at it depose a crazy dictator, and have our soldiers (who are trained to fight) choose the battleground".  My guess is EVERYbody(sarcasm) would have gotten on board then.

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Even though I am solidly pro-choice, I have absolute respect for the opinions of someone who is pro-life. Sure, I wonder how someone who is pro-life can be pro-war, but that is another discussion. Oh, and why someone will spend a weekend holding vigils for unborn babies instead of volunteering at a homeless shelter or foster home. But, I guess they have their reasons. I think we place high, almost unattainable, expectations on
politicians. I think that is a good thing. Palin does not have what it
takes to play in the big leagues. The media was out to get the GOP in '08 and she was the weak link. She probably took more shots than she deserved, but who cares...I belive Bush is a complete failure...but I will save this for a new thread.

anonymous's picture
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just to stir up trouble...
I think that most people who are pro-life are actually pro-life for everybody else, but pro-choice for themselves.

Moraen's picture
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Still@jones wrote:Even though I am solidly pro-choice, I have absolute respect for the opinions of someone who is pro-life. Sure, I wonder how someone who is pro-life can be pro-war, but that is another discussion.
Likewise, I wonder how pro-choice people are against the death penalty.I am not PRO-war.  Interestingly enough though, I find it odd that pro-choice people would rather kill a baby that hasn't harmed anybody, than a criminal who has.

anonymous's picture
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I tend to be pro-choice, but anti-death penalty.
 
However, my reasoning isn't about morals and religion.
 
I think that abortion is awful and something that should be avoided if at all possible.  However, I also think that the mother's life is more more important than the unborn baby.  If a pregnancy is going to put the mother's life in danger, I believe that it is proper for her to have an abortion.  If your 43 year old brother rapes your 12 year old retarded daughter, she should be able to have an abortion. 
 
However, the bottom line for me is that although I think that abortion for birth control purposes is wrong, I don't think that is a proper role of government.   For those who believe that abortion is murder and a sin, this seems like one of those areas in which it would be better to let God deliver the punishment than man.
 
As for being anti-death penalty, for me, it's just about practicality.  As a society, we can't seem to get this one right.  Once we can do this swiftly and relatively cheaply and consistently  and in a way that may act as a deterrent, I just don't see the point.
 
More accurately, I am pro-choice AND anti-abortion (with exceptions).

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anonymous wrote:I tend to be pro-choice, but anti-death penalty.
 
However, my reasoning isn't about morals and religion.
 
I think that abortion is awful and something that should be avoided if at all possible.  However, I also think that the mother's life is more more important than the unborn baby.  If a pregnancy is going to put the mother's life in danger, I believe that it is proper for her to have an abortion.  If your 43 year old brother rapes your 12 year old retarded daughter, she should be able to have an abortion. 
 
However, the bottom line for me is that although I think that abortion for birth control purposes is wrong, I don't think that is a proper role of government.   For those who believe that abortion is murder and a sin, this seems like one of those areas in which it would be better to let God deliver the punishment than man.
 
As for being anti-death penalty, for me, it's just about practicality.  As a society, we can't seem to get this one right.  Once we can do this swiftly and relatively cheaply and consistently  and in a way that may act as a deterrent, I just don't see the point.
 
More accurately, I am pro-choice AND anti-abortion (with exceptions).I think you are more anti-choice and pro abortion.  I am for abortion in those extreme cases like you mention.  But in that case, the woman was never given a choice.Or if the child is putting the mother's life in danger.But women who have sex because they want to, aren't careful and get pregnant.  Don't get a pass from me.  You don't get to kill a child because you were irresponsible and didn't make your boyfriend put a jimmy hat on.You are the exception in the pro-choice crowd (if indeed you are pro-choice).I remember hearing a pro-choice comedian talk about how pro-life people were hypocrites because they "don't want to abort them when they are babies, but will let them grow up and kill them with the death penalty when they get older".  This was met with a standing ovation.  Sick, if you ask me.

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I know that I'm talking about extreme examples, but don't we need to do so?  If your wife gets raped, should she have the choice to get an abortion?  If the answer is "yes", I think that makes you "pro-choice" even if you think that abortion is a terrible awful thing.  I think that abortion is a terrible awful thing, but I don't want the government making the decision for my wife and my kids.
We have to be practical.  If abortion was only legal, for example, in cases of rape, I think that we are going to have lots of men accused of rape.
 
Again, I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion.  Let me try to phrase it another way.  I'm pro-choice, but abortion is usually a terrible amoral choice.  It's not a decision that I think that the government should be making for people. 
 
I don't know how Catholics stand on the issue.  Can someone please explain the Catholic position.  I know that they are generally Pro-life, but are there exceptions for things like the mother's life being in danger.  I know that abortion is against the Jewish religion, but it is mandatory if the mother's life is in danger.

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The abortion issue is quite complex. I was hoping we would bash Palin some more. The Catholic church is against all abortions and birth control methods. They believe you should let your wife die so your child will live. Stupid child molesters! 

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52new wrote:And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. .
You know what’s coming when you read that sort of garbage preface….
52new wrote:To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican.
I'm not fan of the evangelical wing of conservatives, but you're out of your mind. Call me when they start flying jetliners into buildings and videotaping beheadings of nonbelievers.
BTW, the concept that you USED to be a conservative, but now you’re turned off by “evangelical christian conservative”[s]. a group whose power within the GOP has been in decline since the days of the Moral Majority in the 1980s, is ridiculous.
52new wrote:At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient..
 
There’s nothing necessarily “evangelical christian conservative” in rejecting the idea of giving 1/5 of the US economy and all choice in our healthcare to the same people that do such a bang-up job with the DMV, the VA, The IRS and the DHS.
 
Moraen wrote: As for Palin, …… She's not any dumber than Biden.
True dat…..

Primo's picture
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52new wrote:To LSU ,great place to go to school by the way. Rules in warfare are a sign of societal advancement. But I agree with you to an extent. If we were free to do what it takes to win insurgent wars, we would win them easily. In history, only one general ever won a war in Afganistan. That was Alexander the Great. He would approach each tribal group and tell them, "either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery". It worked. I just don't see us doing that. And the broader question is, what are we doing there in the first place? We went into Islamic countries whith no idea about their culture and traditions. Same mistake we made in Vietnam, but at least in Vietnam we had a legitimate concern with the communist domino effect. There are plenty of good models for healthcare reform. Western Europe puts us to shame.Your talking about the system that requires you go blind in one eye from glaucoma before you can get treatment for the other eye? They have better, more efficient systems with better outcomes and happier citizens. If it's better, why do they come here for the nasty diseases?  They are not more effecient, they are cheaper, there is a difference.  Better outcomes?  Look at life expectancy when you are diagnosed with cancer.  Diabetes.  Heart disease.  Don't believe the insurance propaganda about long waiting lines and rationing. Propaganda or a sneak peak into European style healthcare?In the US over half the money spent on healthcare is spent the last six months of our lives anf offers little or no benefit to the majority of patients. Yeah, its those nasty diseases that kill us that cost money to treat.  Bet you would want the best treatment for you and yours when the time comes.  Of course the new mantra is that healthcare is a right.  According to your logic, we should just let these people go in the name of cost control.  Where are their rights?  Who decides?  You?  A government lackey?  Have you thought about this?  What the healthcare plan will cost, would be spent anyway. How about we just not spend it?  Radical idea. In other words, the cost of healthcare reform would be spent with or without the reform measures. At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient.  Name one government program that is run efficeintly.  Just one.  Medicare is single payer.  Just heard they can cut $500 billion in waste and fraud from that program.  Of course that figure is a lie.  Did you know that?  The "savings" in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid are an accounting gimmick that artificially lowers the cost of HCR to a cost that some politician says is acceptable.  They have to double count the dollars to make it work.  You know this right?  Can you give the definition of effeceincy (sp?)in your world? With respect to religion, my concern is the mindlessness and intolerance of the evangelicals. I consider them dangerous to all of our freedom. Our cultural morality, generally speaking is no worse now than at any time in history. We are always a step away from savages, and a step away from enlightenment.

Milyunair's picture
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Still@jones wrote:The abortion issue is quite complex. I was hoping we would bash Palin some more. The Catholic church is against all abortions and birth control methods. They believe you should let your wife die so your child will live. Stupid child molesters! 
 
Orthodox Christians argue that the Orthodox Church is the true unbroken historical church since the resurrection of Christ. Christ lives eternally.
 
Like everything, there is a lot of politics in religion. We can all see the log in our neighbor's eye, easier than we can see our own shortcomings.
 
Here is the position of the Eastern Orthodox Church: ( We could have a long debate here, but it is widely believed by Orthodox Christians that the Catholics split off from the Orthodox over the politics of spiritual practices and belief . The Catholics says that the Orthodox left them. Ancient politics.)
 
" In case of a direct threat to the life of a mother if her pregnancy continues, especially if she has other children, it is recommended to be lenient in the pastoral practice. The woman who interrupted pregnancy in this situation shall not be excluded from the Eucharistic communion with the Church provided that she has fulfilled the canon of Penance assigned by the priest who takes her confession. "
 
If you go back far enough in the historical church, which lives today, you find the truth.
 
Isn't it funny how we all stray from the church. The purpose of confession is to renew ourselves, to start with a clean slate in our hearts and minds.
 
A lot of folks might have a negative emotional reaction to the thought of confession, but again, this probably comes from ignorance about what confession means - you need to understand the cultural and spiritual aspects, maybe, to have a postive attitude about something which seems strange.
 
Like visiting a foreign country, and getting to know the locals. I have a theory that a lot of folks have "theoretical compassion". In other words, it's easier to have a liberal attitude about abortion, and attack the beliefs of "conservatives", than it is to have a thorough understanding of the historical viewpoint.
 
If Palin is wrong or weak, why would you get pleasure out of attacking her? That seems to rob your "liberal" viewpoint of spirituality or morality or reason.
 

" The document also acknowledges that abortions often are a result of poverty and helplessness and that the Church and society should "work out effective measures to protect motherhood." All in all, the Eastern Church let's the individual decide for herself whether or not they want to perform the action. "
 
We get to help so many folks in our business. Even respectful conversation is an opportunity to increase our humanity.
 
Obviously, sixteen year olds getting high and making babies and having abortions is pretty silly, and so is forcing a sick mother or rape victim to avoid abortion. It's a personal decision, and the Church and clergy can help counsel the individual. Free choice is perhaps God's most important gift to humans.
 
Interesting discussion. Now is a good time to renew ourselves for the coming year. Happy New Year!
 
Here is the article:
 
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Christianity_and_abortion#3.
 
Ironic that the reading from St. Paul for today hits home:
 
http://www.goarch.org/chapel/lectionary_view?type=E&code=133&date=12/30/2009
 
Christ renewed the didactic laws of the Jews. "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."
 
Jones guy, please don't attribute didactic and moralistic practices to real Christians. That is brutal irony, and reduces Christian spirituality to cynicism, which is probably not a nice thing.
 
We don't judge, and we don't speak for God. We try to be humble listeners, " seek first to understand, then to be understood ".  Anyone who claims that God will punish and person's abortion, or homosexuality and the like, speaks while standing on  thin ice, far from the center of the Church. We have the teachings of the Church, and we have free choice.
 
If you have never checked out the Orthodox Church, or, feel Christianity got too political over the ages, or want to a great source for debates, check out this award winning site:
 
http://www.goarch.org/

Primo's picture
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anonymous wrote:I tend to be pro-choice, but anti-death penalty.
 
However, my reasoning isn't about morals and religion.
 
I think that abortion is awful and something that should be avoided if at all possible.  However, I also think that the mother's life is more more important than the unborn baby.  If a pregnancy is going to put the mother's life in danger, I believe that it is proper for her to have an abortion.  If your 43 year old brother rapes your 12 year old retarded daughter, she should be able to have an abortion.  98% of abortions are for birth control purposes, not rape, incest, or mother's health reasons. 
 
However, the bottom line for me is that although I think that abortion for birth control purposes is wrong, I don't think that is a proper role of government.  So who should stand up for the unborn if not the entity that makes the laws?  The issue is and has always been, is a fetus a person?  As someone who has lost a child (stillborn), I can tell you that she looked like a person to me.  Hurt just like I had lost a loved one.  But every argument I hear about abortion deals with 2% of them, or a woman's right to control her body.  What about the babies rights?  We have politicians telling us that the healthcare is a right, while trying to compromise on abortion language.  I think that life is a right, earned the day it begins.  For those who believe that abortion is murder and a sin, this seems like one of those areas in which it would be better to let God deliver the punishment than man.
 
As for being anti-death penalty, for me, it's just about practicality.  As a society, we can't seem to get this one right.  Once we can do this swiftly and relatively cheaply and consistently  and in a way that may act as a deterrent, I just don't see the point.
 
More accurately, I am pro-choice AND anti-abortion (with exceptions).

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Primo,  I hear you.  I think that there are lots of valid sides to this argument.   One of the things with laws is that they must be able to handle the 2% of cases and not just the 98%.   
 
It seems to be that for those who believe that human life begins at conception, abortion is murder.  As such, I think that they should be arguing against all abortions regardless of the circumstances.   Many people would be ok with this....except if it was their own daughter.
 
I'm very sorry for your loss.  It hurt like you lost a loved one because you did.

WiredUp's picture
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Joined: 2009-11-24

Religion and politics in the same topic conversation. Let's throw some abortion in, get a little fired up with church and state. Let's call up a few of our clients and see what they think. If you think politicians are here to help the masses or "fix" things you're crazy. If you gave them a broken clock they'd spend 50x what it would cost to replace it, not fix it, and then tell you it's spot on twice a day, and say we have bigger fish to fry. Or what they would really do is start a "think tank" about how to take people's minds off the health care or global warming issues. In the end the new guy would raise his/her hand and say, "let's just f*ck up the economy again," and call it a day.

Why drive yourself crazy with ranting about what's wrong with our gov't or country and spend more time figuring ou how to make clients and ourselves money at the idiocracy of the people in charge.

And if that doesn't work, brush up on uour Mandarin and not so much on your Espanol.

Still@jones's picture
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Milyunair wrote:Still@jones wrote:The abortion issue is quite complex. I was hoping we would bash Palin some more. The Catholic church is against all abortions and birth control methods. They believe you should let your wife die so your child will live. Stupid child molesters!.....If Palin is wrong or weak, why would you get pleasure out of attacking her? That seems to rob your "liberal" viewpoint of spirituality or morality or reason.I do not think I am liberal...I like freedom and money; all my beliefs have their roots in one of these. I believe we benefit every time we raise the bar for any politicians...this isn't the Special Olympics; everyone doesn't get a medal... I want my leaders to be sharp and polished and I want them to know their sh*t better than anyone else. Palin was an embarrassment. Biden might say alot of dumb things, but he knows his sh*t.  The Catholic church will change their "beliefs" if it attracts more members or money...just like any other church. It's a business. I have a friend who went to Catholic school; she said she was taught that if she is raped and gets pregnant, she should do the right thing and have the baby. 

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Conrad Dobler wrote:
52new wrote:And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. .
You know what’s coming when you read that sort of garbage preface….
52new wrote:To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican.
I'm not fan of the evangelical wing of conservatives, but you're out of your mind. Call me when they start flying jetliners into buildings and videotaping beheadings of nonbelievers.
BTW, the concept that you USED to be a conservative, but now you’re turned off by “evangelical christian conservative”[s]. a group whose power within the GOP has been in decline since the days of the Moral Majority in the 1980s, is ridiculous.
52new wrote:At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient..
 
There’s nothing necessarily “evangelical christian conservative” in rejecting the idea of giving 1/5 of the US economy and all choice in our healthcare to the same people that do such a bang-up job with the DMV, the VA, The IRS and the DHS.
 
Moraen wrote: As for Palin, …… She's not any dumber than Biden.
True dat…..

Too ignorant to justify a reply.

Moraen's picture
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52new wrote:

Too ignorant to justify a reply.

Yet you replied. Poser.

Primo's picture
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anonymous wrote:Primo,  I hear you.  I think that there are lots of valid sides to this argument.   One of the things with laws is that they must be able to handle the 2% of cases and not just the 98%.  IMO, laws should skew towards the 98%.  There are some homicides that are justified, why not make homicide legal?  IMO, rape, incest, health of the mother are difficult emotional issues used to justify killing a person for the purposes of birth control the vast majority of the time.   
 
It seems to be that for those who believe that human life begins at conception, abortion is murder.  As such, I think that they should be arguing against all abortions regardless of the circumstances.   Many people would be ok with this....except if it was their own daughter.  I can't say I have the answers for the 2%, tough subject for sure.  I am married to a woman that would have the child regardless because of her faith.  This is one of the many reasons I married her.  IMO, rape and incest arguments can be answered with adoption.  Sucks, but life isn't fair.  Health of the mother is the only issue that gives me pause for thought.  I can't say what I would do in that case, although I know what my wife would do.
 
I'm very sorry for your loss.  It hurt like you lost a loved one because you did.  I appreciate the kind words.

Otane's picture
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52new wrote: I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.

It makes me laugh when liberals preface their statements as "former" conservatives. You mentioned people were delusional in this thread, I argue that you are disingenuous - the fact that you are absolute in your opinion is dangerous in itself. That is why our forefathers created the checks and balance system for people like yourself.

Happy Holidays.

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