Motorcycles

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Moraen's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-22

I understand some of you guys are motorcycle experts.
I am looking at getting a motorcycle (first time buyer).  What do you guys recommend?

2wheeledbeemer's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-10

Are you more interested in the cruiser/Harley "lifestyle" bike, dual purpose (on road/off road) approach, long distance touring, or more sporting, high performance types of bikes?  Lots of good choices in each category, but vastly different depending on what you're wanting out of the experience.

Moraen's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-22

2wheeled. I'm looking for a sportsbike - Budget $20k.

2wheeledbeemer's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-10

Ok, you're in my zone then.  Next question, have you taken or are you planning to take some variation of the MSF course?  Very important that you do that if you're a first time buyer.  Unless you grew up with a YZ125 clamped betwixt your thighs, you'll benefit greatly from some structured instruction as you get comfortable with the street.  Seriously though, even if you did grow up on dirt bikes, a weekend MSF course can fill in the blanks for you.
 
So, are you completely new to the process, or do you come in with some degree of two-wheeled proficiency? 

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-30

I was going to ask the same question Beemer did but he beat me to it.  That being said, he's more qualified to answer that one than me since I'm a laid-back cruiser type.
 
One word of advice I'd share is to start with a little smaller engine and even consider a used bike...not a beater, but something with less than 10K miles and 2-3 seasons on it.  Your first bike should be easier to handle and something that you outgrow in a season or two.  Meanwhile, you can do your homework while scratching the itch to ride and getting some good riding experience.  I'd hate to see you lay down a new $20K bike while trying to get the hang of riding.  Once you've found your soulmate bike and test-drove it, you can put the first bike on Craigs list or eBay.  Assuming you're an average size guy...no more than 6' and 200 pounds, an 800-1000cc bike should be plenty big for a first bike and there are lots of great-looking streeters out there.  Although you won't be able to this season, my rule is to sell in the spring and buy in the fall.
 
Welcome to the world of two wheels...I'm 35 days from a trip into the Smoky Mts. with some friends and spouses...looking forward to my first cruise to Deals Gap...

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-30

BTW, tomorrow is my first planned day commuting to work on my bike this season...the midwest is finally starting to see highs in the 80's...
 
...I love this time of year almost as much as Christmas...

jkl1v1n6's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-06

2wheeledbeemer wrote:Ok, you're in my zone then.  Next question, have you taken or are you planning to take some variation of the MSF course?  Very important that you do that if you're a first time buyer.  Unless you grew up with a YZ125 clamped betwixt your thighs, you'll benefit greatly from some structured instruction as you get comfortable with the street.  Seriously though, even if you did grow up on dirt bikes, a weekend MSF course can fill in the blanks for you.
 
So, are you completely new to the process, or do you come in with some degree of two-wheeled proficiency? 
 
2wheeledbeemer - don't you mean "wheelhouse"?  Sorry couldn't resist.  With your name and it being spring with baseball underway. 

Moraen's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-22

I'm completely new at this, so all advice is welcome.

I have not taken a course, but I assume I should have to. I haven't even looked. Kind of one of those things where you decide you want something, but don't think about all the processes it takes to get there.

IndyOne - that's good advice. A newer bike would probably be wasted since I don't know what I really want.

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-30

Whatever you do, you don't want to end up looking like this dumbass...
 
http://jalopnik.com/5103219/biker-busted-for-speeding-tries-to-fight-the-law-and-guess-who-won
 
If this dude's IQ was more than 60, I'd be surprised.

2wheeledbeemer's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-10

Definitely take the course, and invest in good gear.  You can get some surprisingly good deals on top quality riding gear at Competition Accessories or Iron Pony.
 
On the bike recommendation, depending on how big you are and how steep your learning curve is, at the lower end I could recommend a Kawasaki Ninja 250 or 500.  You'd probably outgrow either of them pretty quickly as your confidence and abilities grew, but they both look the sporting part, and have good reputations.  Tons of them both available used at really attractive prices, too.  Kawi also makes a great bike with the 650R and Versys.
 
Yamaha makes a solid choice with the FZ600, and Suzuki offers my personal favorite for a newer rider in the SV650.  Suzi also has a couple other good choices in the GSX650F and their almost indestructible GS500F.  I personally favor the SV650 for its overall appeal and v-twin torque, with nimble handling, light weight and tons of aftermarket go-fast, sound good, look good stuff available.
 
Moving up a notch or two in price, but still way below your 20k mark, you could look at a Ducati Monster 600, 620 or 695 (new).  Supreme cool factor, wicked sound with some aftermarket pipes, and a guarantee that you'll get more attention at Bike Night than the Hayabusa guy with l.e.d.s and a 6 foot swingarm extension.
 
If you're an Anglophile, the Triumph Thruxton is seriously cool, with a retro look and 900 cc twin mill.  Ergonomics are a little tough, with a "thank you sir, may I have another" riding posture.
 
At the upper end of the entry level zone, I'd put the BMW F800S or F800ST.  Solid twin performance, unique in most markets, and BMW quality (for the good or bad, depending...)
 
Certainly not an exhaustive list, as there are tons of variations on the theme, but those are some solid contenders with current availability.  I've purposely left off the GSXR600, CBR600, ZX6R, YZFR600, etc., as I don't consider those entry-level bikes.

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Moraen - This is really simple-As a complete noob if you buy a sport bike bigger than 500cc you are going to kill yourself.
 
Yeah, that's kinda strong, but it's true. Anything bigger is too much torque meeting too little experience. Look at the crashed bikes on Autosalvage.com to see what that adds up to. Don't do it before dinner.
 
Don't ride without being properly dressed. When you fall off, most likely you'll survive the experience. We all have. It will be a much more pleasant experience if you still have most of your skin when you pick yourself up and say "What the eff was that?" I know a guy who rode three legs (8000 miles) of the Iron Butt rally after dumping his Kawasaki Voyager at over 100 mph on I-95 in Maine. He was bruised and cut. But his riding suit saved him major skin and muscle damage. He finished last on a Honda 175 he bought from a lawn mower store after getting out of the ER. But that's another story.  
 
Google "the Hurt report" for more info on motorcycle crashes and their causes. Hurt is the name of the researcher who authored the study. Though the double meaning of the name isn't lost on most. Reading this will make you a better rider.
 
You will drop the bike. We all have. It's a fact of life. More so with an ill handling at low speed sport bike. So, unless you have bodywork skills even a parking lot dump could cost you $500 -$1000 for lower farings, lights/lenses etc. not to mention a ruined day. Buy a 500 cc standard bike, without farings as a first learner bike. Maybe stretch to something like a Honda Nighthawk 750. A great standard bike! Make sure your feet touch the ground when seated on the bike. This comes in handy for all bikes without training wheels.
 
I'm a BMW guy so another bike i'd recco is a early-mid nineties K75. Just the standard issue bike. Nice ride!
 
Indy and Beemer gave you some great advice. I will reiterate-Take the MSF course. To that I will add Take the MSF course. And lastly, take the MSF course.
 
 

nestegg's picture
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Joined: 2007-06-14

I am a Harley guy so I can't be much help as far as crotch rockets go!
However I difeinitely suggest doing the course before getting on a bike the first time!

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-30

Moraen,  after looking at other posts, I probably recommeded too much motor even at 800cc.  BG's right...no sense killing yourself!  I ride with bikes as large as 2000cc, but I myself ride a 900.  Bigger bikes are nice for long cross-country runs, but are tougher to handle at low speeds, especially when turning.
 
...and yes, I've dumped a bike in my 27 years riding...three times to be exact...only once at any speed, thank goodness.  I mostly just injured my pride.

Moraen's picture
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Joined: 2009-01-22

So I found a Kawasaki Ninja 250 2008 for $2000 with the extended warranty. 

 
Are they easy enough to handle?
 
I figure that's pretty inexpensive for a first bike, but I also want to make sure it is not a crappy buy that I'm not going to enjoy.
 

2wheeledbeemer's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-10

Done and done.  That's perfect, as long as you understand it's a starting point, and that you're not going to enjoy it if you try to follow BondGuy on his K1200 on his next Iron Butt run.  Get some good gear, sign up for the local instructional course and get your bike endorsement (some courses actually satisfy that completely), and enjoy it!  Every time I throw a leg over, it's like a 45 minute vacation.  Rode mine in today, and will scoot out a little early for an afternoon scrape with my bud here in the office who has a GS1150.
 
Keep us posted, and hope it all goes well!  For $2000, you can't go wrong with that one.

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

The Ninja 250 is a fine bike. On the plus side, it's not over powered. It's small enough so that short riders can easily put their feet down flat, and it has no reported bad habits. It's also fun to ride.
 
On the negative side, it has a lot of plastic on it. The farings will take a beating in a parking lot dump and more severe damage if you're moving. That's money to fix.
 
Low speed handling is an issue with all sport bikes. With expereince this changes, but only because the rider is compensating for the bike's short comings. Thes bikes are build for speed. The narrow bars become an issue as new rider's are afraid to lean the bike at low speed. Leaning the bike is what makes them turn.
 
For many, not all, the 250 Ninja is quickly out grown. I know this is a first/beginner bike, but just as 800cc may be too much bike, 250 may be too little. You want a bike that you can put about 5000 miles on and not be afraid to take to a parking lot to practice evasive maneuvers, emergency braking, and sharp U turns. So the bike has to have some durability in that dumping in a parking lot won't end your day.  And it has to be interesting enough to ride, and comfortable enough to ride that you will put on those miles. lastly, it has to have enough power that it can do freeway speed comfortably. The N250 is good on that count.
 
One other thing about sport bikes- the riding position. The riding position puts a lot of strain on the neck and wrists. To some people this is not an issue, but something to think about.
 
If you had any experience i'd say ride the bike and see how it feels. But with zero experience I'd advise a pass on a sport bike as a first bike and find a cheap conventional motorcycle.
 
As a suggestion, take the MSF course first and then buy a bike. Talk to your instructors about good first bikes. Most, if not all, MSF beginner courses supply bikes for the course. Those bikes are usually no bigger than 250cc with most at 125cc.
 
Some states don't automatically issue a licence with passage of the MSF course, while some do. If your state does, that's a good reason in it's self to take the course. If it doesn't that means you'll need to go a testing center with your own bike and take the test.
In NJ, a rider testing on a sport bike of any ilk has a low percentage chance of passing the test. Why? Because the test is all low speed maneuvers that center on the sport bike's biggest weakness, low speed handling. Find out how it works in your state.
 
Most of my riding is on big touring bikes. But like Indy commuting season has started. My office is in center city Philly. The big bike is too much bike for the mission. So, what do i ride? A Honda NSS 250 Reflex Scooter. What a fun ride! It looks like a sport bike too! And it gets 75 MPG. So it's a win-win. I mention this because a scooter wouldn't be a bad choice for a first bike.
 
Good luck!

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

One other thing now that i'm talking about one of my favorite topics, motorcycles:
 
I know you have sport bike itis. Ans that's what you want to own and ride but sport bikes are for the big dogs. Those with lots of experience. those who can handle the torque and know how to get the bike back under them if and when. They don't call them crotch rockets for nothin!
 
The next time you watch any video of a jet doing a carrier landing, remember this: that guy had F18 itis. he/she dreamed it and made it happen. But they didn't start out flying F18s. Most likely they started in a Cessna 152. Relatively speaking, the bike equivalent to my Honda Scooter.
 
All good things in time. Get a good foundation in riding and then twist that wrist on the bike of your dreams! Oh yeah-I feel the need for speed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BondGuy's picture
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I've always liked this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBNyuf533Go
 

UNDERMINDED's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-14

BondGuy wrote:Most likely they started in a Cessna 152. Relatively speaking, the bike equivalent to my Honda Scooter.
 
All good things in time. Get a good foundation in riding and then twist that wrist on the bike of your dreams! Oh yeah-I feel the need for speed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Now we're talkin.  There's nothing wrong with a Honda Ruckus!

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-30

The family vacation thread got me dreaming of my two-wheeled adventure next week...I'm guesstimating 1,500 miles total on two wheels, including all 469 miles of the Blue Ridge Parkway, with my wife and two other couples.
 
Looks like some beautiful scenery...leaving Saturday and will let you know how it all went the following weekend when I'm back in my recliner...with a few more callouses on my rear.

HymanRoth's picture
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Joined: 2008-08-25

Indyone wrote:...with a few more callouses on my rear.TMI! 

BondGuy's picture
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Indyone wrote:The family vacation thread got me dreaming of my two-wheeled adventure next week...I'm guesstimating 1,500 miles total on two wheels, including all 469 miles of the Blue Ridge Parkway, with my wife and two other couples.
 
Looks like some beautiful scenery...leaving Saturday and will let you know how it all went the following weekend when I'm back in my recliner...with a few more callouses on my rear.
 
Do the 1500 miles in 24 hours. In Iron Butt Association terms that's a Bun Burner Gold. Or you could wimp out and do it 36 hours for just a regular Bun Burner certificate. But wait, you've got  what, a week? You could do a BBG 3000. That's two back to back Bun Burners.
 
Or, you could do a SS5000. That's 5 back to back 1000 mile days. Heck with a a week you could do a 100CCC. That's coast to coast to coast in 100 hours.
 
Wait a minute, why not do a four corners tour? Ride to the nearest corner of the country. For you, that would be Maine. From there bogie on down to Key West, then over to southern California and then up to Washington State. There's a web site that gives the specific towns and requirements to get the cert. I-10 is beautiful this time of year. Keep the arms covered once you hit Texas.
 
Of course you are closer to the Great Lakes so maybe a Great Lakes Gold? That's a ride around all the great lakes in 50 hours. Or if you want to stop to smell the lakes, ah i mean roses, you could do the ride in 100 hours. Watch out for the Mackinac Bridge. Those grates will freak you out if there's wind. And there's always wind!
 
 If you can stretch the ride to 10 days you could do a 48 plus. That's a ride through all the 48 lower states plus a 700 mile hop skip and jump  to Hyder Alaska. WOW an Alaskan vacation! And since you're already there, add another 50 hours to do a Trans Canadian. Think of all the moose you'll see eh!
 
With these rides you still get the the beautiful scenery. Just a lot more of it. And you don't get bogged down with all that non motorcycling stuff, like taking tours and sleeping in nice hotels or eatting in fancy restaurants. The Iron Butt Motel awaits you at anyplace you wish to stop. it's simple and cheap!
 
Ok, the Blue Ridge is a fabulous road. And a great ride all in itself.  Seriously, if you get a chance ride the Dragon at Deals Gap. The Dragon is RT 129. it's about 65 or 70 miles south of the southern end of the parkway. One of the best, if not the best motorcycle road in the east. Worth the trip!
 
Wishing you sunny skies and empty highways!

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Oh, one other thing, you, your wife and two other couples? That's a lot of people for one bike don'tcha think? I mean i'm not judging or anything, to each his own, just sayin.
 
have fun!!!!!

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Yeah, it ain't no fun being normal. But Indy's the one taking the big ride this week. The parkway is a great ride! Two up for a week on the twisties should challenge his riding skills and hopefully not his marriage.

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-30

...thanks for all the advice...bike is waxed and I'm heading for the bed...I can read this week but can't post, so you can leave a message, but you won't hear from me until next weekend...

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

I'm very jealous!
 
Have a great time!

yooper's picture
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Joined: 2008-03-27

WEAR THE RIGHT GEAR!! Going down with nothing between you and the asphalt but a pirate costume gets pretty ugly. I have been racing and riding for 30+ years and have seen  a fair amount of injury and pain inflicted on riders that could have been avoided.
yooper

BondGuy's picture
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yooper wrote:
WEAR THE RIGHT GEAR!! Going down with nothing between you and the asphalt but a pirate costume gets pretty ugly. I have been racing and riding for 30+ years and have seen  a fair amount of injury and pain inflicted on riders that could have been avoided.
yooper
 
 
 
In the Iron Butt Association doing a high speed get off, totalling the bike, and then continuing the rally on another bike is called "Doing a Manny." Thus named after NJ lawyer, Manny Sameiro, who crashed his Kawasaki Voyager at 100mph plus on the Maine Turnpike. Manny was running late to make the check point in Gorham Maine. Seems that on the previous gas stop he had accidently filled his gas tank with diesel. Known as the diesel fuel experiment it's a costly mistake. The time it took Manny to empty the tank and get the bike running put him in serious DSQ territory. Thus the reckless riding. The point is, his riding suit and a lot of luck save his butt and most of his skin.
 
 A heavily bandaged Manny became an IBR legend by completing the remaining three legs (about 7000 miles) of the rally on a Honda 175 he found rotting behind a lawn mower repair shop. $400 bucks later he rode the bike to the Honda Dealer check point in Gorham where they made the bike road worthy. Without the riding suit and helmet Manny probably wouldn't be here. And even if he survived he would have faced months of rehab and skin grafts.
 
Sweat or bleed, hellofva choice with only one right answer.

Indyone's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-30

BondGuy wrote:Yeah, it ain't no fun being normal. But Indy's the one taking the big ride this week. The parkway is a great ride! Two up for a week on the twisties should challenge his riding skills and hopefully not his marriage.
 
BG et al, I'm home...tired...dirty bike, 335 miles on the last leg today and sitting in front of the computer with a Mike's Hard Lemonade.  I'll post more, hopefully including pictures later, probably in a separate thread, but here's a quick synopsis of seven days in the Smokies...
 
Left last Saturday for the Gatlinburg area and did a bit over 400 miles in that day alone.  Not really fun riding...just trying to get to a destination.  Sunday, went over the mountain at Gatlinburg, through Cherokee, started the Parkway and ended in Asheville NC...gorgeous scenery and weather.  Monday, decided to skip the Biltmore (seen it once and will be taking the daughter to see it later anyway) and got back on the Parkway.  Beautiful weather and great scenery again.  Ended in Mount Airy, NC (hometown of Andy Griffith...neat little place...will spend more time there next time).  Seeing weather approaching from the west, got back on the Parkway Tuesday, with a detour to see the Natural Bridge...huge...awe-inspiring, but put us behind in finishing the Parkway.  I had convinced the others to finish it rather than turn back west and head for home 60 miles short.  In a way, that turned out to be a mistake, although I'd do it again rather than wimp out and not finish all 469 miles.  The last five+ miles were finished Tuesday night in a blinding thunderstorm at about 9pm.  It was very wet, very dark, except when the lightning was flashing, and given the visibility, terrifying.  I'm on a road that I don't know, with my wife behind me, both of us getting soaked because we didn't want to waste time putting on rain gear when we were trying to beat the storm.  All I can see through sheets of rain is about 15 feet of the center line, my GPS, and my buddy's taillight.  I told him later that if he'd ridden off the mountain, I surely would have followed.  Given how we'd become accustomed to really laying into the switchbacks, I thought for sure, one of us at least would lay a bike down in that mess, even given the greatly reduced speed.  Anyway, we finally click off the last five miles and arrive at an abandoned complex at the end of the Parkway, just east of Waynesboro, VA.  We literally park the biked and ran under an old motel overhang to get out of the rain.  We're talking no doors on the rooms, all the windows busted out...just not a nice place.  I'm not sure why it failed being at the top end of the parkway, but the store/welcome center, motel, everything was closed.  Anyway, after looking at the radar on my PDA and seeing an even worse-looking mess coming from the west, we decided to slog through the diminishing rain and try to get a room at Waynesboro befoire the big stuff hit.  A great day for 99% of it, but the last part S-U-C-K-E-D.
 
Wednesday, got up, looked at the radar, saw it was mostly clear so we took off through scenic West Virginia.  Got to about mid-afternoon, around Summerville(?) and got soaked again!  At least this time, we had all our raingear on and luggage covered!  My wife voted to stop right there, but fearing more problems if we didn't get farther west, we pushed all the way to Barbourville (just east of Huntington) and quit because of threatening weather (and because it was going on 8 o'clock in the evening and we wanted to celebrate one of the ladies' birthday).  We literally got the last three freaking rooms at the Best Western we stopped at.  The lady at the desk told us that because a lot of people worked around there, rooms are almost always pretty scarce.  Had a nice dinner at Outback right across the parking lot from where we stayed (I had Shrimp en Fuego and highly recommend it).
 
Thursday was complete bust as far as riding goes.  It literally rained all day and after our two previous experiences with riding in the slop, we got a deck of cards, secured our rooms for the night and played Euchre most of the afternoon and evening.  Had an excellent meal at Famous Dave's Barbeque (I highly recommend the beef brisket).
 
Today, we woke up to very cloudy and cool weather with the last shower passing through Barbourville just as we were getting up.  We dried the bikes up and headed west across Kentucky (ever been on the AA highway?!!) and then back home...about 335 miles today.  The sun came out about mid-morning and we had beautiful driving weather the rest of the day.  Having done the Parkway and not finding anything that quite matched up, we took a few scenic roads, but mostly made a beeline back home.
 
All told, about 1,662 miles total, and but for Thursday and a couple of brief bouts Tuesday and Wednesday, we had great weather and smooth sailing...no injuries, no breakdowns and almost no damage to the biked (my buddy's chrome shock tube on his Vulcan took a couple of nasty dents when a piece of asphalt flew up and disintegrated in his front fork on route 25 in Asheville).  I would highly, highly recommend the Blue Ridge Parkway for any serious biker as one beautiful, relaxing ride (unless you're in a thunderstorm).
 
Look for more in a separate thread if I find the time after being out of the office for a week.
 
...and BG...the wife and I got along beautifully...and not a scratch on the bike that I can see...

Eyetattoo's picture
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Start here: http://www.sportbikes.net/  its a good forum for all different makes/models.  gixxer.com is also good if your looking for a suzuki.

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Indy, great trip report!
 
1600 miles in one week? That's as much as most do in a summer.
 
Dark mountain roads, heavy rain, fog, lightning flashes, Bates motel in the middle of nowhere? Sounds like a good time! Typical Iron Butt ride. I do have to say that I know more than one IB rider who would have stayed at that motel. At least under the overhang. Beats a wet picnic table.
 
Glad you had a great ride. Looking forward to seeing the pix.

2wheeledbeemer's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-10

Hey, Moraen, did you get that Ninja 250? Anybody else take some profit on their naked BAC puts and buy a two wheeled toy lately?

troll's picture
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2wheeledbernie wrote:Hey, Moraen, did you get that Ninja 250? Anybody else take some profit on their naked BAC puts and buy a two wheeled toy lately? <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
 
You all are serious about the ninja 250? I rode one home once for my sister in-law and it was like riding a damn moped. I have owned several bikes, but my current thrill ride (but not for long because my wife wont ride on the back wheel  with me anymore, so cruiser world here I come), is a Suzuki tl 1000r (sv 650 and sv 1000 are the newer year models and nice bikes). If you have not rode a motorcycle before, a stock 600 Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, etc. is fine to start with. Then after you get used to it drop the front sprocket a tooth and have some real fun. Crash the piss out of it and turn it into a stunt bike. Then go out and spend 20k on a Duc.
 
But first before you make the decision; ask yourself why you want a motorcycle. If you are an adrenaline junkie you will be pissed with the 250 (I was pissed when I test rode the stock 600s but that’s just me). If you want to enjoy the ride etc. then start with a Honda shadow 600 or an equivalent to that. Honestly though if you are over 5 feet tall you will look like a monkey f***ing a football on the ninja 250.

 
 
To repeat the best advice on this topic......
 
ALWAYS WEAR APPROPRIATE GEAR. If you are not wearing at least a DOT APPROVED HELMET, even in the states not requiring helmets, you are only a statistic waiting to happen.
 
A close friend died three weeks ago. Big truck pulled out in front of his Road King and he only had a turtle shell helmet on. His ol lady had DOT approved helmet. She lived, he died.
 
So, get a 600, a nice expensive helmet, come to <?: prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />East Tn and shoot the gap with me...
 
 
 

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