The way we were

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BondGuy's picture
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One week and one day to go before we flip control to the republicans in the House. Probably not a bad thing. Still, it's hard to understand why anyone would vote for the party that got us into this mess. And, has stood as rock in the road blocking getting us out.Who was it that said  "Never under estimate the gullibility of the American public"The tea baggers remain as confused as always. Less taxes, less government, but still inspect my food, protect my butt, and don't touch my medicare!! As sad as it is, it's good entertainment!I'll vote for the repub for congress even though the former NFL player is as dumb as a stump. The dem choice is just too slimmy and by my figuring, with narrow repub house, and dem senate, what damage could this guy do in two years? 

BigFirepower's picture
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Blaming one party for the mess we're in, is like assigning the blame for a failed marriage upon one spouse. Hardly...If you believe that taking a Trillion dollars from the skin of the public, while creating zero jobs an accomplishment, you're much smarter than I am apparently.Who's not to say that the voting public wasn't gullible in electing Obama, who had an extremely weak resume for the oval office?Tea Baggers, ok, what makes you think that Federal Spending is so lean and mean, that it's beyond scrutiny? Our federal budget is incredibly bloated, doesn't take a rocket scientist to clearly see that, does it?Interesting, maybe telling, that you'd vote for a Republican in this election. Imagine what all these 2-3 yr unemployed folks think about all this? Again, they're aware of massive federal spending, and they cannot even get a full time job as a greeter at Walmart?What really gets me, is that California, with 12% unemployment, is going to most likely re elect the same group of folks yet again....The definition of insanity...

BondGuy's picture
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BigFirepower wrote:Blaming one party for the mess we're in, is like assigning the blame for a failed marriage upon one spouse. Hardly...The repubs controlled the house and Senate from 95 throufh 2007. They controlled the house senate and white house from 2001 through 2008. I've fingered the culprit. If you believe that taking a Trillion dollars from the skin of the public, while creating zero jobs an accomplishment, you're much smarter than I am apparently.Show me the money? If you mean the stim packege, much rev neutral and is in tax cuts. In fact 300 billion of the stim pack is in tax cuts. But don't tell any of this to the tea baggers. Appartently having to do math pisses them off. Just easier for them to rant.Excluding tax cuts from obama the tea baggers are for tax cuts. Who's not to say that the voting public wasn't gullible in electing Obama, who had an extremely weak resume for the oval office?The gullibility of the american public can measured by those who think it is realistic that the economy turns on a dime. Just because Sarah Palin beleives that's the way it works doesn't make it so.  Tea Baggers, ok, what makes you think that Federal Spending is so lean and mean, that it's beyond scrutiny? Our federal budget is incredibly bloated, doesn't take a rocket scientist to clearly see that, does it?I don't think it is lean and mean or should be beyond our scrutiny. But, for my entire adult life it has been beyond scrutiny. Most of that time a repub has been in the white house. No laying that on Obama. How much of bloated budget is due to Iraq war debt?Tea baggers want less spending but are clueless on what the actual spending is. The repubs, knowing economies don't turn on a dime are cashing in on the nations' pain because we are still feeling the effects of the crash. Political ads are running on every station that claim the bailouts are the problem. That, though the bailouts are over and proved to be rev neutral. The ads are dishonest. Yet, if the ads work, the dishonest will get into office. That's the type of thinking that got us into  this mess. The repubs are shameless at snookering their own faithful with this bullshit. "Tell em a lie, they're to stupid to figure it out for themselves.' And they are right.  Interesting, maybe telling, that you'd vote for a Republican in this election. Imagine what all these 2-3 yr unemployed folks think about all this? Again, they're aware of massive federal spending, and they cannot even get a full time job as a greeter at Walmart?What massive fed spending? please expain in detail, including if spending will be money good at end.What really gets me, is that California, with 12% unemployment, is going to most likely re elect the same group of folks yet again....The definition of insanity...The problem in california is that the major repub candidates laid off a lot of people in their past lives as corp chieftains. That's just doesn't sit well. On a positive note for Californians, the Giants got past the Phillies. Californians should bask in that victory in the short time before they get crushed by Texas.    

FA86's picture
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Joined: 2010-05-21

Wow BG, where to start? "The problem in California is that the major repub candidates laid off a lot of people in their past lives as corp chieftans" Are you serious?! I have family in California and I have spent a significant amount of time in that state and I can tell you that your statement doesn't even register on the scale when one is trying to determine the problems in California. California is a liberal test lab that is in meltdown. Here's a few for you: onerous taxes and regulation compared to other states, rampant spending (if spending were to be adjusted for population increases and inflation from the late 70's when prop 13 was passed the state would be running a surplus), and generous public employee pension benefits. Servicing the pensions and health benefits for a bloated public sector in California is going to eat up increasingly large amounts of the California state budget. You've got 3 police forces in San Diego: the current force, the one that just retired, and the one that retired before that. The pension benefits many of these middle-class employees receive are the equivalent of a worker in their mid 50's having a 1mm retirement plan.  This is unsustainable. Finally, my liberal friend, the story that ices the cake is what is happening with the water situation in the state. Farmers in the central valley are being devestated as water supplies are being cut off to save the poor delta smelt. Yes, the delta smelt, an unedible, ugly fish that is about as long as your middle finger.

BigFirepower's picture
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Bond Guy, if you take the most liberal voting cities in the USA, then look at their economies, quality of life, you see murder and mayhem simply rule the day. Fine, blame all the white folk for leaving places like Detroit, Philly, what have you, but those places HAVE INDEED been run into the ground by liberals. But hey, to each his own, and if it is any satisfaction to you, the liberals are winning the war on america. Pretty soon, we'll be just one big socialist happy family...

BondGuy's picture
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BigFirepower wrote:Bond Guy, if you take the most liberal voting cities in the USA, then look at their economies, quality of life, you see murder and mayhem simply rule the day. Fine, blame all the white folk for leaving places like Detroit, Philly, what have you, but those places HAVE INDEED been run into the ground by liberals. But hey, to each his own, and if it is any satisfaction to you, the liberals are winning the war on america. Pretty soon, we'll be just one big socialist happy family...Big, you didn't answer the question: Show me the money? You can't go around complaining about government spending without understanding just what is government spending. Well, that is unless you're a tea party candidate trying to get elected and your core voter is as dumb as you are. Philadelphia has been run into the ground? Are you on drugs? Didn't you watch the Phillies eat it in the NLCS? Looking at that new stadium in Philadelphia, just how run into the ground did Philly look? Philly has the fourth highest GDP of any american city, behind NYC, LA, and Chicago. And, while race may be an issue for you it's not an issue in Philly where there has been no 'White Flight."Big, where did you get this misinformation? Please tell me you are smarter than this. Oh, and BTW, Philly's budget, balanced! And, balanced by a tough as nails black democrat mayor! Go figure!

BigFirepower's picture
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I'm not into this politics talk generally speaking, not here anyways. I'm here to discuss RR issues. It's the "as dumb as you are" type stuff I can do without. Come on Bond Guy, don't resort to that stuff.Anyways, enough politics...

BondGuy's picture
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FA86 wrote:Wow BG, where to start? "The problem in California is that the major repub candidates laid off a lot of people in their past lives as corp chieftans" Are you serious?! I have family in California and I have spent a significant amount of time in that state and I can tell you that your statement doesn't even register on the scale when one is trying to determine the problems in California. California is a liberal test lab that is in meltdown. Here's a few for you: onerous taxes and regulation compared to other states, rampant spending (if spending were to be adjusted for population increases and inflation from the late 70's when prop 13 was passed the state would be running a surplus), and generous public employee pension benefits. Servicing the pensions and health benefits for a bloated public sector in California is going to eat up increasingly large amounts of the California state budget. You've got 3 police forces in San Diego: the current force, the one that just retired, and the one that retired before that. The pension benefits many of these middle-class employees receive are the equivalent of a worker in their mid 50's having a 1mm retirement plan.  This is unsustainable. Finally, my liberal friend, the story that ices the cake is what is happening with the water situation in the state. Farmers in the central valley are being devestated as water supplies are being cut off to save the poor delta smelt. Yes, the delta smelt, an unedible, ugly fish that is about as long as your middle finger. The Delta Smelt is an indicator speicies. Look it up. How the fish looks and it's size have nothing to do with the factors surrounding it's survival. Past that, california's problems, which i will agree are many, are not purely the making of liberal democratic lawmakers. That the repub drumbeat of "look at this mess" isn't working in california shouldn't surprise anyone. The electoriate is well educated and things have been a mess for a long time. So, less inclined to buy the lie. On top of that my point sits that rich woman who lay people off and get bonuses to do so isn't going to sit well in a state with 12% unemployment.

FA86's picture
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You're attacking the least potent argument I make. And yes, California's problems - which can take bipartisan credit - are largely the result of a rubber stamp legislature and governorship. Take the parties out of it and it becomes more simple. Excessive spending and very poor assumptions made over the past few decades have made California a mess. It just so happens that the Republicans have got religion (i.e. are now self-proclaimed budget-hawks). I'll vote for that religion every time. The point of a well-educated electorate means nothing. Fact of the matter is California is a cesspool. I love many things about the state but at this point would not dream of moving my wife and I back there given the political/economic climate.

BondGuy's picture
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BigFirepower wrote:I'm not into this politics talk generally speaking, not here anyways. I'm here to discuss RR issues. It's the "as dumb as you are" type stuff I can do without. Come on Bond Guy, don't resort to that stuff.Anyways, enough politics... Big, i don't think you are dumb. I view you as a positive contributor. That said, for a guy who doesn't want to talk politics, you responded to a purely politcal thread.Follow me here, and i'll explain dumb:We, as in most financail advisors had a front row seat to the debacle two years ago. This special seating gave us a below deck look at the real damage done to the bond and credit markets. That view afforded us a view of reality that wasn't taking place top side in first class. While those people were vaguely aware of a problem they were not aware of how critically stricken we were. To top that off,  they were being told that those who knew the truth, that the ship was going to sink in very short order, were chicken littles. But, down in the bowls of the ship, we saw the damage and knew the truth. We knew past a miracle we were done! Life as we knew it was over. For that reason there are few advisors who will deny that the bailouts and stimulous were needed. AS we move along the time line, low and behold, the bailouts worked! As it turns out they are largely revenue neutral, or close enough. Stimulous in the form of tax breaks, and credits have helped keep the economy from a full blown depression. Other stimulous has saved an estimated 1,000,000 jobs, which in turn pumps the economy. Taken in total, the stim package with bailout included have saved our collective butts from a lot of misery. And, they have turned out to be almost revenue neutral. Again we move along the time line. We are in a deep recession or just climbing out of one. The nation is in pain. High unemployment, shuttered businesses, foreclosure nightmare. Lots of pain. Again, as students of economics, we as advisors know that economies don't turn on a dime, and don't heal over night. it can take two years to recover from a moderate recession. Deep recession could take four, five, or more years. We know this, as does every student of economics. Move further along the time line. What is the messege of almost every tea party and republican attack ad? The messege is all the wastefull spending going on in Washington. The messege is the stimulous package IS the problem. The bailouts are the reason for the pain. Just listen to those ads. The Repubs and Tea Partiers have demonized the very programs that saved our butts. They've taken a positive and turned it into a negative. The people who voted for these programs did the right thing. Now, they are characterized as hurting us. The people who did the right thing and saved this country are going to get voted out of office. That's not right. These ads are lies. They are dishonest.Ok, gee, a dishonest politcal ad, dah!  What's the big deal? The big deal is this: Most advertising plays on human nature. That is, the trusting nature of most people to give you the benefit of a doubt. You say you won't raise taxes, OK,  i'll trust you at your word here's my vote. However, this year's crop of ads is different. How? They are playing on the uniformed non thinking way of the target audience. They are playing on the fact  most of their audience accepts their version of reality and why there is so much pain today. They know that most of their audience isn't paying attention and isn't thinking for themselves. it's a" we know the truth, but they don't, so the truth is what ever we tell them it is." And, the truth they are telling is a lie.If you doubt this, when you hear the next attack ad today demonizing the bailouts and stimulous ask yourself this question: Who is the intended audience for that ad? Certainly not those who think for themselves. Certainly not the informed who saw life as they knew it pass before their eyes two years ago and know the truth. Who does that leave? So, instead of counting on the good side of human nature to carry them to office, they are counting on their audience remaining a nation of sheep. They are playing on their stupidity. Regardless of your politcal leanings, that's just wrong.

BondGuy's picture
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FA86 wrote:You're attacking the least potent argument I make. And yes, California's problems - which can take bipartisan credit - are largely the result of a rubber stamp legislature and governorship. Take the parties out of it and it becomes more simple. Excessive spending and very poor assumptions made over the past few decades have made California a mess. It just so happens that the Republicans have got religion (i.e. are now self-proclaimed budget-hawks). I'll vote for that religion every time. The point of a well-educated electorate means nothing. Fact of the matter is California is a cesspool. I love many things about the state but at this point would not dream of moving my wife and I back there given the political/economic climate.Being a budget hawk is the next new new thing. it's what's selling these days in the political marketplace. In my state it's the same messege. Yet, considering the repubs played at least an equal roll in my state for creating the budget probelm only those born yesterday are buying into that message. We;'ve got the same probelms, pensions killing us, out of control state employee unions etc. To top it off we get to throw several billion down the toilet every year on a failed education plan. The state tried to back out and the courts said no. Taken together this gives us the highest property taxes in the nation. So, when it comes to waste cry me a river! Been there, done that, got the T shirt. My original answer to you goes to why a rich, and well funded repub may not get the nod.

Times7's picture
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BG, when you call someone dumb, you willingly give up your moral gravity. Any party or discussion that ignores the fact that we are broke - is wasting precious energy. The political establishment is about directing power and living in the big house. It will be positively influenced by the Tea Party, which will itself become corrupted by power and money. Real wealth comes from empathy for others and doing a responsible job taking care of the people around you. BG, since you are wealthy, you cannot separate the observer and the observed. Only poverty would give you objectivity. You can't "win" the debate. Your dog in the fight looks more like the Bill Gates foundation, which is itself distorting some private private economies. There is no end to the causality of big government, big business, big politics, big media, overpopulation ... conservative economics just gives us a little more dignity. Watch California melt down, and you'll see some real low class "liberal" "caring" behaviors - this is going to get ugly.  

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BondGuy wrote:AS we move along the time line, low and behold, the bailouts worked! As it turns out they are largely revenue neutral, or close enough. Stimulous in the form of tax breaks, and credits have helped keep the economy from a full blown depression. Other stimulous has saved an estimated 1,000,000 jobs, which in turn pumps the economy. Taken in total, the stim package with bailout included have saved our collective butts from a lot of misery. And, they have turned out to be almost revenue neutral.  BondGuy, don't believe the Fed's line about them making money on the bailout and how it didn't "cost" anything. You know better than that. Of course it cost a ton, otherwise the Fed wouldn't being hiding the details of the purchases and gifts to Wall Street firms and banks.Here's a VERY interesting article that'll take you to Bloomberg News http://www.businessinsider.com/banks-fed-appeal-document-release-high-court-bailout-2010-10.  Remember, Bloomberg sued the Fed under an FOIA request, wanting to know what the Fed paid for those MBS assets and all as part of the bailout. - This is the Fed saying a big F-You to Bloomberg and to the American public.It's easy to make up results (the bailout didn't cost anything) when there is no transparency, or honesty.I'd be called a skeptic, except the things I'm skeptical about being crooked, are.

BondGuy's picture
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BBQ wrote:BondGuy wrote:AS we move along the time line, low and behold, the bailouts worked! As it turns out they are largely revenue neutral, or close enough. Stimulous in the form of tax breaks, and credits have helped keep the economy from a full blown depression. Other stimulous has saved an estimated 1,000,000 jobs, which in turn pumps the economy. Taken in total, the stim package with bailout included have saved our collective butts from a lot of misery. And, they have turned out to be almost revenue neutral.  BondGuy, don't believe the Fed's line about them making money on the bailout and how it didn't "cost" anything. You know better than that. Of course it cost a ton, otherwise the Fed wouldn't being hiding the details of the purchases and gifts to Wall Street firms and banks.Here's a VERY interesting article that'll take you to Bloomberg News http://www.businessinsider.com/banks-fed-appeal-document-release-high-court-bailout-2010-10.  Remember, Bloomberg sued the Fed under an FOIA request, wanting to know what the Fed paid for those MBS assets and all as part of the bailout. - This is the Fed saying a big F-You to Bloomberg and to the American public.It's easy to make up results (the bailout didn't cost anything) when there is no transparency, or honesty.I'd be called a skeptic, except the things I'm skeptical about being crooked, are.The total cost of the bailouts is about 60 billion. That's with a some money still on the streets. The lawsuit is about the mechanics of the bailouts, who got what, when, not the total cost. The point is the bailouts saved us from a depression. The people in office who did the right thing and voted for the bailouts are now going to get voted out based on a lie. How does that sit with you? Those who will replace them will be there because they misled their core supporters. How's that sit with you?That being the case, i don't blame you for being a skeptic.  

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BG - I agree with most of what you said about the bailouts/stimulus.  They were necessary and the people who voted for them did the right thing.  Mostly.  I typically find myself agreeing in theory to most of what the Tea Party stands for, but I find myself recently getting frustrated that their arguments, like that of Glenn Beck and Fox News, are so blatantly one sided.  I think it's a dangerous thing to have one party in control of everything.  We just keep swinging that pendulum too far back and forth for my tastes.  With that said, I believe you are incorrect in your assumption that the people who voted for the stimulus need to stay in office.  It's not just the stimulus bills that upset the average Tea Party or conservative voter.  It's the billions upon billions of dollars spent in ways that they think the federal government really shouldn't be spending money.  Their views are that the federal government should be limited in scope.  They want the power to go back to the individual states and local governments.  Why is it the federal government's job to make sure that we all have health care?  Why is it the federal government's job to make sure there is clean energy?  Why is it the federal government's job to make sure there's a chicken in every pot?  The constitution gives very limited authority to the Congress and even less to the Senate.  We've gotten well past that limited authority.  It seems to me that the folks in Washington right now aren't really concerned about what the federal government's job really should be.  They're concerned with trying to make sure that more and more people are sucking at the federal teat and making sure that those people believe that the only place they can go for "help" is back to that federal teat.  And whose money are they using to "help" those folks?  That's what pisses off so many Tea Party and conservative voters.  The current legislators don't have a clue how much money they're spending,  where it's coming from, or in the end where it's going.  The only recourse they have is to vote out those people who they perceive as guilty, whether by association or not, and vote in those candidates who they believe have the country's best interest at heart.  Time will tell whether they voted correctly or not. 

Moraen's picture
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The Republicans who voted for it probably won't get voted out.

BondGuy's picture
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Space - that's a good post. And, i agree with much about what you're saying regarding DC's spending. The problem is, the hole we now find ourselves in took almost a decade to dig. Most of that hole was dug by the republican controlled house, senate, and white house. In fact very little has been dug by the current congress. They didn't create the problem. Yet, they are getting the blame. The  cry from the Tea Party is decidedly partisan. Only the dems are to blame. You point to Beck as one example.  Of course, the TP had to target some repubs earlier in the year to gain access to the national election. You will note they didn't target any dems in the primarys. That's because the dems are at the center of their bullseye. The reason the dems are center of the target  is that this election isn't about money/spending/deficits or anything else. It's about power. Republican power. The means to an end- cashing in the nation's pain by fraudulently  framing the bailouts and stimulous AS the root of the problem. They are hitting the hot button in peoples lives and selling them a bag of lies. The TP is playing the public like they're suckers. Glen Beck is one of the master manipulators. And, it's working.The liars will in control in January 2011. How does that make you feel about the direction of the country? People who played you for a mope running the country?Regardless of whether you believe the dems should stay in power or not, that should give you pause.

BigFirepower's picture
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Well, in the end, we have elections. Unfortunately, who knows how honest these elections will be.Illinois is trying to screw overseas military ballots, the SEIU is in charge of voting machines in Nevada, a relative of Reid is in charge of elections, his name seems to be a default when voters show up, in other places the ballot is popping up straight dem ticket, and then of course we have the Dems doing everything possible to deter laws that require voters show ID or prove citizenship...I'd love to see a liberal spin the last part. How on earth can any honest person be opposed to voters proving that they are eligible to vote?? I have to show ID to buy alcohol or tobacco, but in most places it is ILLEGAL to ask for id or proof of citizenship. America has seen the true Democrat party, just like they did under Jimmy Carter. Democrats are essentially Euro type Socialists, that believe no problem cannot be solved without the heavy hand of the Federal Government. Well, sometimes folks need to be reminded, and now they have. So, the party of lesser evil will be voted back into power, and the GOP gets a chance to redeem themselves. The GOP needs to address illegal aliens, vote fraud, and ensure that America allows its own citizens the ability to create and grow small business. The GOP will not take the Senate, there simply aren't enough contests being run. But they should pick up a majority of Gov offices, and the House of reps. Several states should swing hard right. No matter how successful the GOP is on Tuesday, you can be 100% sure that it will be spun as some sort of loss by the big media.  

Times7's picture
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It may be comforting for you to keep the debate focused on the right-left dynamic, but the real issues are things like entitlements, debt, regulations and the obstacles to innovation (for example, change in education in the public schools). Tea Partiers are sick of corruption, big government, sending tax money to government union pension funds, obstacles to expanding small business. You keep trying to define the playing field in terms of traditional politics, but there is a fundamental shift and resentment about things like: government jobs can pay better than private (if you can even get a private sector job), taxes are a huge percentage of gross income ( property taxes too high as a percentage of mortgage payments), it costs too much to add another employee, personal health care premiums just increased 18%, with another huge increase slated for January, in response to the new requirements.These considerations are far removed from the sheltered luxury of your comfortable Wall Street financed magnanimous perch. You don't really know what's going on out in the trenches, you come off as being sheltered and aloof, like O's army of overeducated and soft handed theorists. You like to argue the details, and ignore the hard facts like: people need to work longer, government unions need to take pension cuts, the private sector needs to increase while the public decreases,  health care costs need to be controlled by allowing more private competition and reducing entitlements ( not popular with broke baby boomers).

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Times7, very well stated. Our country needs to head into the direction of less regulation, less nanny state, smaller government. Good Americans are tired of picking up the tab when it comes to pitiful Americans that don't work, criminals, do drugs, no taxes, live irresponsible lives. This new Healthcare Government Take Over, is basically the biggest federal heist of all time, in the history of the world.  Unchallenged, it will make our health care WORSE, and bankrupt us even faster than what we're doing right now. The UK has just cut substantially into their Federal Budget, it's high time we do this as well.

Times7's picture
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In fact, BG,  you bear responsibility for the fact that millions of American children are hungry. It is a combination of your failed Great Society programs and selfish wealth accumulation from Wall Street that brings us to our knees. If you had focused on one or the other, maybe you would really have something interesting to say to the group.

Times7's picture
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Exactly, big fire. This thing is still playing out. At precisely the time when America has promoted free trade, labor immigration, Bush tax cuts and such, she chokes. ( Selfish baby boomers who did not save jockeying for position with their hands held out to Uncle Sam.)And then libs like BG start to do a slow about-face, reluctantly voting for the fiscal conservative candidate to try a new strategy. If you don't believe in yourself first and the markets, why in the heck are you making a living selling debt? This is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. Barney Frank is the poster boy for this liberal hypocrisy. Bush is the poster boy for the old school corporate status quo. Things have gotta change, don't make fun of the messengers. I visited some young students at a Big Ten college this week. I can assure you, the next big wave of enthusiasm will be young people saying "no" to the entitlement borrowing and false charity of the baby boomers. Watch California melt down. I'm sorry, this is not what I want to be talking and thinking about.

Times7's picture
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Here are your Goldman Sachs progressive Bond Guys, now trying to justify their own wealth through "charity" and good works. I'm all for redemption, but first you have to confess and come clean.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/16/goldman-sachs-fraud-expla_n_540938.html

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Times7 wrote:In fact, BG,  you bear responsibility for the fact that millions of American children are hungry. It is a combination of your failed Great Society programs and selfish wealth accumulation from Wall Street that brings us to our knees. If you had focused on one or the other, maybe you would really have something interesting to say to the group. Dude, have you ever stopped to smell your own bullshit? Stop talking - start showing links please! Show us the failed great society programs. Show is the liberal spending that has brought us to our knees. Less than ten years ago Clinton handed the repubs a budget surplus. No failed policies on that day in 2001. The hole we find ourselves in was dug by republican shovels.By the way, what's the deal with you, just troll with a whacked out point of view?

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BG, if you want to have a discussion, ok, but you need to lay off the heavy handed tactics. Of course, World history shows, that when liberals take power, freedom of speech tends to go out the window, right around the time gun rights are gone too.... I can send links, but I'm sure you're familiar with German, Russian, Cuban, Venezuelan, and Cambodian politics. BG, you talk about Federal spending cuts, in only one department, defense. Well, Roosevelt did the same thing, and at Pearl Harbor, Denmark had a larger army than the USA. I'd agree that defense spending needs to be reduced, but not at the comprimise of national defense. But, at the same time, if govt cannot get itself out of 70% of the economy, then that speaks to a larger issue. The govt has become a living, breathing, and EATING entity, truly,....a beast.  

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BigFirepower wrote:Times7, very well stated. Our country needs to head into the direction of less regulation, less nanny state, smaller government. Good Americans are tired of picking up the tab when it comes to pitiful Americans that don't work, criminals, do drugs, no taxes, live irresponsible lives. This new Healthcare Government Take Over, is basically the biggest federal heist of all time, in the history of the world.  Unchallenged, it will make our health care WORSE, and bankrupt us even faster than what we're doing right now. The UK has just cut substantially into their Federal Budget, it's high time we do this as well. Big ,didn't you say you didn't want to talk politics? What you really meant was you don't know what you are talking about, can't back up statements you've mimicked off the local Tea Party website, and are just as clueless as the rest of the tea party followers. That and you want the dems out and you don't care how that happens.To be against  healthcare you'd have to really understand how it works. Which, I'm sure you don't. But, benefit of a doubt, care to explain how the healthcare plan is the biggest federal heist of all time? Big, that's your cue to come back and say you don't want to talk politics.

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Bond Guy, I'm sure it makes you feel better to call me an uninformed idiot, but I can assure you, that if I wanted to back up every statement I make, I could source the issues.Would you like me to detail Hillary Clinton's pork belly futures trading for you?Would you like me to explain how the UST shut down 30 yr bonds, for the benefit of the deficit, playing games, then letting GS profit from it?I mean, we can have a real field day if you'd like? And how about my claims of vote fraud, care to debate that?Or, maybe we'll just let the election do the talking, and we get back to biz?Peace guy, I have all sorts of liberal friends, I can handle it.  

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BigFirepower wrote:Bond Guy, I'm sure it makes you feel better to call me an uninformed idiot, but I can assure you, that if I wanted to back up every statement I make, I could source the issues.Would you like me to detail Hillary Clinton's pork belly futures trading for you?Would you like me to explain how the UST shut down 30 yr bonds, for the benefit of the deficit, playing games, then letting GS profit from it?I mean, we can have a real field day if you'd like? And how about my claims of vote fraud, care to debate that?Or, maybe we'll just let the election do the talking, and we get back to biz?Peace guy, I have all sorts of liberal friends, I can handle it.  No, you don't have to back up any of that, only the false claims you've made here earlier. Or, you can run and hide again and say, "I'm not into politics and don't want to talk about it."The point of this thread is the dishonest nature of this election, of folks being intentionally mislead. You among them. But, apparently OK with you as long as the dems lose. Which surprises me. One of the tea Party's whacko claims is that the dems are practicing Marxism. And here you are, Ok with the lies. The end justifies the means, eh Big? Wow, that's irony! And, entertaining that you don't get it!  

Times7's picture
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Dude, let's talk about the Goldman progressives. You and I sell securites and make a good living. You try to serve two masters: Wall Street and a progressive agenda. I serve Wall Street and the elimination of big government.No one is saying that we don't need liquidity in the system, but if you are going to sit here and make a living pitching debt while U.S. debt spirals out of control, AND be a hypocrite by blaming this party or that, you're just diverting attention away from the little man behind the curtain. In terms of Goldman, "Bond Guy", you are that little man, with a lot of good friends in the White House and our Congress. And a big bank account full of bonds, I'll bet. The world has changed, and you know it. I was around during the high tech boom of the 90's, you can sit here and talk about the good old days of Clinton ( for whom I voted ) - or you can at least quit trying to appease your guilt on a capitalist forum. Sheeesh. You're trying to rub everyone's nose in your dog's ka ka. We can all take credit for this mess, time to move forward and punish corruption! Can't wait for next week, but those Republicans need to repent and get capitalism, which can finally help those hungry kids in our own country.

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BG do you ever stop to smell your own BS? I would have thought you could have seen past the whole "Bush inherited a surplus from Clinton and look what he did" argument. The assumptions and projections the CBO made were ridiculous at the turn of the century. We had a great 90's economy driven by a tremendous amount of innovation in the IT sector which had a profound impact throughout the broader economy. The same apes that tell you, "Well, Obama only wants to go back to Clinton era tax levels, what's wrong with that?" are the same ones who believe that Bush pissed away a golden decade of budget surpluses. Correlation does not imply causation. The argument "We had higher taxes and a stronger economy, therefore we need to raise taxes" is one for economic neophytes. Here's a link with more on the Clinton "surpluses" : http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16 BG, I think it's high time for a National Review and/or Weekly Standard subscription. I'd gladly sponsor it. Some good economic reads can be found in their pages.

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Oh, and BG, I agree with the aim of this thread. There is quite a bit of deception going on in the political ads. It happens every election and both parties do it. It's up to the voter to understand the issue. "Wall Street" and free trade are being excorciated this election. Heck, to the point where I've pondered how I can dress up as "Wall Street" for Halloween. The Republican gubernatorial candidate in my state worked for Lehman Brothers in our capital and his opponent is laying the blame squarely at his and Lehman's feet for the recession.

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Times7 wrote:Dude, let's talk about the Goldman progressives. You and I sell securites and make a good living. Except your a troll and have never sold a securityYou try to serve two masters: Wall Street and a progressive agenda. I serve Wall Street and the elimination of big government.See aboveNo one is saying that we don't need liquidity in the system, but if you are going to sit here and make a living pitching debt while U.S. debt spirals out of control, AND be a hypocrite by blaming this party or that, you're just diverting attention away from the little man behind the curtain. I'M STANDING DOWN WIND OF THIS, AND IT REALLY DOESN'T SMELL GOOD.In terms of Goldman, "Bond Guy", you are that little man, with a lot of good friends in the White House and our Congress. And a big bank account full of bonds, I'll bet. Dude, what's with the hard-on against Goldman? Let me guest they snookered you out of some money because they are smarter than you are?Oh, and BTW, is this the first Whitehouse to have friends on Wall Street?The world has changed, and you know it. I was around during the high tech boom of the 90's, you can sit here and talk about the good old days of Clinton ( for whom I voted ) - or you can at least quit trying to appease your guilt on a capitalist forum. Sheeesh. You're trying to rub everyone's nose in your dog's ka ka. We can all take credit for this mess, time to move forward and punish corruption! Can't wait for next week, but those Republicans need to repent and get capitalism, which can finally help those hungry kids in our own country. Is there anyone you support?

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FA86 wrote:Oh, and BG, I agree with the aim of this thread. There is quite a bit of deception going on in the political ads. It happens every election and both parties do it. It's up to the voter to understand the issue. "Wall Street" and free trade are being excorciated this election. Heck, to the point where I've pondered how I can dress up as "Wall Street" for Halloween. The Republican gubernatorial candidate in my state worked for Lehman Brothers in our capital and his opponent is laying the blame squarely at his and Lehman's feet for the recession.Dressing as Wall Street for Halloween?That would be scary!As for the deception, it's not the run of the mill campaign "tell'em what they want to hear." And, while i agree it is up to the voter to understand the issues, when was the last time that happened? In this election the repubs running the false ads regarding bailout/stim are in one of two camps. They either don't understand the economic implications of those programs or they do. So, when elected we either get an uniformed boob or a liar .  Show me how we win?At the same time we get the same party that ran up the bill over the past decade back in controll of one house. Again, The Way We Were.And, ironically, the repub tea partiers are pointing at the Obama admin chanting Marxist! This while they themselves purposely practice "the end justifies the means" to distort the truth to win office.  They really don't get that, that's what they are doing. Again, people get upset when i call people stupid, but what else could you call it? I do find that aspect entertaining.  

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In true lib form, your last resort is personal attacks. You are a Goldman progressive and I can understand why you are trying to defend the status quo, because it has treated you very, very well. You get on here and pick a fight with RRs ( don't need to prove that to you, but I can say I understand how wrap fees run through admin fees and payout grids as well as the next guy, and moving stuff to wrap because 12b1s may go away and you can borrow money from yourself in that VUL after the tenth year at zero interest, long duration bonds are going to get hammered as inflation kicks in from the printing and borrowing, Fed getting ready to put more inflationary cash out there next week by buying our own debt, don't try to assasinate me on cred, dude.)I'm just pointing out your conflict of interest, and the fact that you call Tea partiers stupid is "laughable". But not really, you just p*ss me off. Most of America is more like Sarah Palin than your little cozy fake bond world of printing debt and bailing it out. You don't really understand liquidity, and it's time for you to stop being such a tool. Your game of raising the credibility of those who challenge your status quo is coming to a close, and now the hard work begins. This is not going to be fun for anyone, I think you trivialize the business and mock our profession with attacks on the cred of folks who want to bring in a third viewpoint. I'm going to guess that you're not as smart as you think, or you are just addicted to adrenaline.

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You're not even honest with how you feel, you say Tea Partiers are entertaining, but really they threaten you and your world. I would agree that both sides are acting in a ridiculous fashion, ends justifies the means and such. Seriously, I grew up in the time of hippies and gurus, tell me folks didn't get swept away by this BSer from Chicago. Sellout. You don't really care, as long as your little pile is protected. Like Bill Gates, you feel guilty and want to distort the economy more with your charity. Don't act like a hypocrite, and attack other people's ideas for change, which really just take us back to good old American capitalism. Party's over, little man behind the curtain.

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BG, I agree with you on the bailout/TARP issues. It sells well to call them bailouts for fat cat bankers but either party will use it if they can play it to their advantage. Our federal government is a torpid, sprawling octupus of bureaucracy that, well, is run like a government. I won't say tea partiers or Repubs have all the answers but I like to think that they are the ones with the ideas that will at least attempt at restoring sanity to our budget/entitlement nightmare. A lot of us on the right are pretty serious about sound fiscal policy and are extremely disappointed with Bush and his congress for abandoning the principles of fiscal restraint. Never again is our rallying cry - only time will tell if it holds true.

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Dude, what's with the hard-on against Goldman? Let me guest they snookered you out of some money because they are smarter than you are? This is for the other RRs here: As a small main street shop, I kept money in straight securities the whole time, that's what my clients pay me for, to be smart with their money. You can allow Goldman to create CDOs and fail, but you can't bail them out. No more friends in the White House. We've always been smarter than that, now we're paying attention. Party's over.

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FA86 wrote:BG, I agree with you on the bailout/TARP issues. It sells well to call them bailouts for fat cat bankers but either party will use it if they can play it to their advantage. Our federal government is a torpid, sprawling octupus of bureaucracy that, well, is run like a government. I won't say tea partiers or Repubs have all the answers but I like to think that they are the ones with the ideas that will at least attempt at restoring sanity to our budget/entitlement nightmare. A lot of us on the right are pretty serious about sound fiscal policy and are extremely disappointed with Bush and his congress for abandoning the principles of fiscal restraint. Never again is our rallying cry - only time will tell if it holds true.You lost me here.The tea partiers won't do anything to change a thing. It's not about money, it's about power. Their entire campaign is a sham. Haven't you been paying attention? That's the point of this thread.That, and a tea partier with an idea? Come'on, you can't be serious. Their central plank is rage, not new ideas.

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Hang on man...I'm not saying I march with the tea party but I will say that Angle and O'Donnell aren't representative of everyone running that is associated with the tea party movement. I think you are misreading the tea party and their sympathizers. Based on what I've been able to glean it is a movement predicated on the fact that spending is out of control. Scoff all you want but guys like Paul Ryan and Chris Christie are in fact actually doing something about it. Christie in action and Ryan is trying to start the conversation. I disagree with you on the power grab. Sure the power attracts people but it attracts candidates regardless of political stripe. That said, I want people in positions of power who are at least willing to have a discussion about spending rather than sweep it under the rug.

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Times7 wrote:Dude, what's with the hard-on against Goldman? Let me guest they snookered you out of some money because they are smarter than you are? This is for the other RRs here: As a small main street shop, I kept money in straight securities the whole time, that's what my clients pay me for, to be smart with their money. You can allow Goldman to create CDOs and fail, but you can't bail them out. No more friends in the White House. We've always been smarter than that, now we're paying attention. Party's over. OK poser, like you said, party's over. Care to explain Goldman's need for a CDO induced bailout? Before you waste your time surfing the web for back up, let me save you the time - you won't find anything. Well, that is, anything factual. I am guessing that there is chapter and verse from the anti wall street TP faction. I suggest you come back and tell us you don't want to discuss politics. And, in your case add finance to that. Obviously you don't understand  Goldman, the role they played as the mortgage debacle unfolded, or their lack of need of a bailout.  While you say your clients pay you to be smart with their money how can you do that if you don't understand the cause of the greatest market crash in modern history? You blame Goldman?Ok, i'll be nice and say that you are either uniformed or misinformed. Question is -Why? 

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BG, I find it pretty funny that the Tea Party is such angst for the big govt, and its supporters. Here is a loose knit group of concerned citizens that rail against big govt, and have put a target on the backs of Dems AND Republicans. The TP is real, and I think it's exactly what the country needs, a bunch of outsiders that have never been involved with politics. If we could just get term limits, we could rid ourselves of this eternal political corruption by BOTH parties. Seriously, I hate to break it to you, but the Democrat party is SOCIALIST. Arguing that, is frankly a waste of my time, it's obvious to... just about everyone. It's time for "Don't Tread On Me" to actually mean something!

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Democrat party is socialist; That's why they issued TARP back in....oh wait!*cartwheels out of topic*

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BigFirepower wrote:BG, I find it pretty funny that the Tea Party is such angst for the big govt, and its supporters. Here is a loose knit group of concerned citizens that rail against big govt, and have put a target on the backs of Dems AND Republicans. The TP is real, and I think it's exactly what the country needs, a bunch of outsiders that have never been involved with politics. If we could just get term limits, we could rid ourselves of this eternal political corruption by BOTH parties. Seriously, I hate to break it to you, but the Democrat party is SOCIALIST. Arguing that, is frankly a waste of my time, it's obvious to... just about everyone. It's time for "Don't Tread On Me" to actually mean something!Big, why do you keep coming back? This is a political discusion, you know, something you don't like to do. That you think that the Tea Party is group of ordinary concerned citizens is, ah, quaint.  See, i was nice there even though you need to look up the players behind the TP movement. I'll admit that i'm not a tea party expert, even though i seem to know more about them than you do. From what i can see every single Tea Party candidate is a liar trying to gain office by getting over on their core supporters. Again, a messege of this thread. You can defend the liars all you want, though i question why you would do so. I don't need you or anyone else to try to explain away what I'm seeing with my own eyes. When you speak of the Tea Party candidates you speak in such virtuous terms. 'These are good people with a good cause." Yet lie after lie after lie inudates the airwaves. 

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FA86 wrote:Hang on man...I'm not saying I march with the tea party but I will say that Angle and O'Donnell aren't representative of everyone running that is associated with the tea party movement. I think you are misreading the tea party and their sympathizers. Based on what I've been able to glean it is a movement predicated on the fact that spending is out of control. Scoff all you want but guys like Paul Ryan and Chris Christie are in fact actually doing something about it. Christie in action and Ryan is trying to start the conversation. I disagree with you on the power grab. Sure the power attracts people but it attracts candidates regardless of political stripe. That said, I want people in positions of power who are at least willing to have a discussion about spending rather than sweep it under the rug.Christie is gov of my state and i voted for him. High marks for taking on the teachers union and killing the xanadu tunnel project. Low marks for costing us 400 mil in fed education dollars for no better reason than his ego. In the end he's a buffoon. The tea party movment isn't grass roots. It's well funded by some rich business people who want Obama and his crew out. Thus, this isn't about money/spending/ out of control govt. Those are only the hot buttons to get elected. It's about power. You look at their ads and even though you want them to win, you know the ads are lies. Yet, you are hanging your hat on these people to change DC? Nothing will change. If DC is filled with liars today, we are electing nothing but a new crop. New day, new lie. Yet, this lie you believe?then there is this, the bailouts were needed. If only to unlock the credit markets to avoid a complete capsize. the bailouts saved our butts from a massive depression or even possibly a total collapse of our country. this is no chicken little bullshit. if you were close enough to see the damage, you know this is truth. That said, these "it's a new day anti bailout tea partiers" get into office- what happens next time we need to be bailed out?I could care less about all the lunatic ranting from these people. it's the damage they'll do the next time we need leaders to do the right thing. 

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BG, sure, every single tea party person is a criminal thug, racist, wife beating, child raping, murderer... What, because Olberman tells you so? BG, I'll come back as often as I like, until folks like you change the law, make it illegal to express myself. Whether I want to post somewhere or not, please, be courteous enough to allow that up to me, ok?Again, a discussion can be had without resorting to name calling, bullying and the like. 

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I'm going golfing. I'll be back...But, first I'm going to check into the folks that think for me, you know, Karl Rove, Limbaugh, Beck, Sarah, and all those thugs at the Tea Party. Clearly, I'm unable to come up with a conservative thought in my own head, need their talking points...

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BigFirepower wrote:BG, sure, every single tea party person is a criminal thug, racist, wife beating, child raping, murderer... What, because Olberman tells you so? BG, I'll come back as often as I like, until folks like you change the law, make it illegal to express myself. Whether I want to post somewhere or not, please, be courteous enough to allow that up to me, ok?Again, a discussion can be had without resorting to name calling, bullying and the like. Express yourself? You come here with ridiculous anti government statements and when i ask you to back it those statements up you run away and hide. calling you uninformed is not name calling if it's true. An informed person can back up what they post and won't post anything they can back up. You aren't coming here to express yourself. You come here to rant and rave. Par for the course at the TP Club.Still waiting for you to answer how healthcare is the biggest government heist? Still waiting  Still waitng 

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One other point on Christie - the Xanadu tunnel was a dem controlled project. 9 bil going to democrat party faithful anf trough swillers. 300mil already spent and not a shovel in the ground yet. lots of dough to hand out in contracts. Christie killing this project isn't as altruistic as it might seem. It will eventually get reloaded as repub deal. Repubs, who were blocked out of the tunnel money party will be first in line at the feeder. I'm happy Gov Christie killed it. It was a first class porker. But, he's not as clean as the repubs would have you believe.

Times7's picture
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Express yourself? You come here with ridiculous anti government statements and when i ask you to back it those statements up you run away and hide. calling you uninformed is not name calling if it's true. An informed person can back up what they post and won't post anything they can back up. You aren't coming here to express yourself. You come here to rant and rave. Par for the course at the TP Club.I'll take this bait:1. My property taxes are too high. 2. Too many regulations and taxes to warrant hiring a junior planner.3. Cap gains going up 60% (rate of change) and ordinary dividends going up 190% with the expiration of Bush tax cuts. 4. My self-employed health insurance ( 5k deductible out of pocket) just went up 18%. Due for another increase in January. 5. Real unemployment here about 18%. 6. We'll see what happens with things like the tax free nature of life insurance cash values and death benefits. This type of "talk" is creating real concern. " It's the economy, stupid". My only point about you, BG, is that you are an irritating, aggressive progressive who likes to attack the cred of anyone who thinks outside the box. That's why we're kicking the box down. You got greedy with your social agenda, now your group is going to be punished.Watch and learn.

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BG, sounds to me you're a cynic more than anything else. I can see how that happens. I guess the only thing any optimist has left is uh...hope for....change? BTW you never responded to my offer on National Review and/or Weekly Standard.

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FA86 wrote:BG, sounds to me you're a cynic more than anything else. I can see how that happens. I guess the only thing any optimist has left is uh...hope for....change? BTW you never responded to my offer on National Review and/or Weekly Standard.I like PJ O'Rourke but !!!!Are you a Neoconservative?Healthy cynic only. Far from giving up. Often a realistic view of the world is mistaken as cynicism. Epecially on a negative topic. Let me reframe the debate:We can all agree that lying is wrong. For example: Even though we only do right for our clients it's not OK under any circumstances, for us to lie to them to induce them to act. So, if lying is wrong, and it's not OK for us to lie,  why is it Ok for these TP and Repub candidates to lie?Would you hire a professional who lied to you to get your business? Of course not!  Yet, these lying TP candidates get a pass? Someone's got to explain that one to me.And, again, hanging your hopes for change on a group of liars is, at best, naive.OK there you have it-the answer that seperates our points of view- I'm a cynic and you are naive. Settled!

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