THANK YOU BARACK OBAMA !!!!!!!!!!! A GREAT PRESIDENT.

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Jennifer Nettles's picture
Joined: 2010-03-01

Thank you Mr. Obama! You will be responsibile for great change in America.You are are so bad, you woke up the non-polical center in America.You showed America so clearly what we DO NOT want to be.What we are not about.Thank you so much!Because of you, America will now have the courage to make changes that would have been very diffacult without you clearing things up.The Tea Party Contract from america:americas futureThank you mr. president.   thank you for showing us what the Baracracy looks like.Bye by mr owebama.    Your work is done.    You are done Nov 2nd.  Go sit in the corner. The Contract from AmericaSeptember 16, 2010We, the citizens of the United States of America, call upon those seeking to represent us in public office to sign the Contract from America and by doing so commit to support each of its agenda items and advocate on behalf of individual liberty, limited government, and economic freedom.

  1. Protect the Constitution
  2. Reject Cap & Trade
  3. Demand a Balanced Budget
  4. Enact Fundamental Tax Reform
  5. Restore Fiscal Responsibility & Constitutionally Limited Government
  6. End Runaway Government Spending
  7. Defund, Repeal, & Replace Government-run Health Care
  8. Pass an ‘All-of-the-Above” Energy Policy
  9. Stop the Pork
  10. Stop the Tax Hikes

iliketennis's picture
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OK.

N.D.'s picture
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Jennifer Nettles wrote: The Contract from AmericaSeptember 16, 2010We, the citizens of the United States of America, call upon those seeking to represent us in public office to sign the Contract from America and by doing so commit to support each of its agenda items and advocate on behalf of individual liberty, limited government, and economic freedom.

  1. Protect the Constitution
  2. Reject Cap & Trade
  3. Demand a Balanced Budget
  4. Enact Fundamental Tax Reform
  5. Restore Fiscal Responsibility & Constitutionally Limited Government
  6. End Runaway Government Spending
  7. Defund, Repeal, & Replace Government-run Health Care
  8. Pass an ‘All-of-the-Above” Energy Policy
  9. Stop the Pork
  10. Stop the Tax Hikes

+1000 could not agree more!

I am legend's picture
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Joined: 2010-03-04

But you don't understand....Didn't you hear Pres. Owebomba's speech the other day when he said that the economy wasn't his fault??  He said that it took from 2001-2008 to ruin the economy and he has just started to pull us out from the brink of the abyss.......Funny that some people will believe that, but thank God it is fewer and fewer!!!  I agree with you JN or ST.....

N.D.'s picture
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The people wanted Hope and Change, but like anything else, our need for instant gratification caused us to buy the first thing to hit the store's shelves. Can anyone say "buyers remorse?"

BondGuy's picture
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You really are sheep, aren't you?Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group. Everyday, I honestly hope that people aren't this stupid. But, here it is, a thread like this one, stupidity on parade!Let me ask this: What the group's take on credit card interest rates?

N.D.'s picture
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BondGuy wrote:You really are sheep, aren't you?Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group. Everyday, I honestly hope that people aren't this stupid. But, here it is, a thread like this one, stupidity on parade!Let me ask this: What the group's take on credit card interest rates? Careful throwing stones from your glass house...but to respond to your question, credit cards are used for two reasons:1. Financially responsible people use them to temporarily fund purchases. For the most part interest rates are irrelevant because the card is paid off monthly.2. Financially irresponsible people use credit cards to live like the "Joneses" They do not care about the interest rate because they want the product no matter what.So for either group it doesn't matter what the rate is but to group number 2 it matters what the minimum payment will be.

tenthtee's picture
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Did Bond Guy ever come clean on his mistaken support for progressivism and the Chicago thugs?

tenthtee's picture
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I started my biz on credit cards. In fact, when I graduated college, I charged a couple of suits so I could get a corporate job to pay off my student loans.My boss was about ten years older than me, and his mom was still buying him dress shirts at Nordstrom's. The guy never had a cent of debt in his life, except his mortgage. A lot of self-made people have used credit and their wits to build equity and help level the playing field. We never expected progressive leaders of the nanny state to explain the basics of  interest rates and compound interest.

lovindaindy's picture
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I started my business on credit cards as well.  The interest rates were 0%.  Paid them off by the time the rate was going to go up - to 9%!The problem isn't the interest rates.  The problem is letting people who can't afford credit, get it.  High interest rates are supposed to be a curb on demand.  If the pool of borrowers is large, those higher interest rates are supposed to be a check on people NOT applying for credit.  The problem is that the borrowers with bad credit feel like it is free money.  It is a lack of financial education.  As long as that exists, you are going to have high interest rates for people who shouldn't have them.If you took time out of the equation and asked that person who has bad credit - you can pay $1000 for this big screen tv, or you can pay $10,000 for it, which one do you choose?  I bet they would say $1000.  Unfortunately, people don't understand interest.  And it's never put in to perspective. 

iliketennis's picture
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Hi, my name is Montel Williams. Would a thousand dollars come in handy right now?

BondGuy's picture
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Ah, the rich people speak!So, none of you need credit? And, when you do, it's only for the short term. I'm not surprised. Meanwhile in the not so wealthy neighborhoods, where people are scraping to make their property tax payments,  your friendly neighborhood bank has fleeced it customers with interest rates that would make a loan shark blush. Charging rates so high, that the wealthiest among us could not pay the money back. They Prey on the poor and get richer for doing so. They sleep at night by putting blame on their victims, calling them dead beats, and fiscally irresponsible. Some of you have called them the same on this thread.  They then pay millions to politicians to make sure regulation doesn't impede profit.  Want to make it legal to charge 30%? Want to make it impossible to know when a late charge will be incurred? How about when a penalty surcharge is added? Or, the best, change the bankruptcy laws to stop all those deadbeat fraudsters from getting away with it and keep'em on the hook making payments forever? No problem, just write a check to your favorite republican congressman or senator and your fleecing of the poor wildest dreams will come true. And they have. And, it gets worse, from pawn shops to pay day loans to Western Union. All fleecing the poor. Major money center banks close branches in declining neighborhoods and replacing them with subprime subsitiarys. All bought and paid for at your local Republican Party Headquarters. And, still, it worse than that - Banks approached the high unemployment states and offered a service - pay the unemployed their benefits with a debit acct accessed via a debit card. This is a good deal for the states, saving them a few hundred thousand dollars a year. But, it is a bad deal for the unemployed. Most banks offer two to four free withdrawals per month, then they charge $1.50 to $3.00 per withdrawal. The average monthly fee, about $60. Wanna check your balance? That's $1.00. Imagine having to pay money to get access to your money? A republican wet dream! Those who can least afford it continue to get fleeced legally.  The people you want to elect are Ok with this. They are Ok with the systematic wealth transference from the poor to the rich. The question is: Are you?  

tenthtee's picture
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You lost me when you singled out the Republicans. That is preposterous.On the bright side, virtually all politicians are hastening the fleecing of money from people who don't understand it. We're getting much closer to dealing with reality in America, and pretending to be the hero of the working man ( the ambassador of progressivism) won't take you very far. We all know your wonks ( Frank, unions, big government) are the other gears in the same machine. You need to understand that some people do not share your core beliefs about political economics. Honestly do not understand things the same way you do - it's not political, it's economics. If you want to understand, great. If you want to persuade, use facts and logic. The only things I believe in are God and the market, (family, personal responsibility, charity, doing the right thing, saving the earth, etc.)  and I know you don't believe in at least one of those two.

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Lots of politicians can take credit for the demise of (small banking) competition. I deposited a check on Friday for 24k and they told me it's on hold until October 5th. First time in 15 years, I walk into the local branch of my big bank, don't recognize anyone, and I get a credit hold because the check is over 5k. Wonder if they make any money on the float or if it helps their balance sheet? Both the libs and conservatives jumped into the greed of the mortgage crisis. Then you have the bailout. Now, small banks and lending and competition are drying up everywhere. Don't couch your solutions in little progressive nanny state packages. That's what got us into this mess in the first place. Do you not understand the irony? Enough is enough. Do you not sense the outrage in America?I saw the clip of the Chrysler guys smoking pot and drinking on their breaks. GM feels they can start contributing to political candidates again. Don't try to convince me you're in it for the "little guy". The little guy is the small business owner out West who is getting screwed by the entires East Coast establishment, and we are angry.

tenthtee's picture
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The people you want to elect are Ok with this. They are Ok with the systematic wealth transference from the poor to the rich. The question is: Are you?Yes. It should be pretty obvious by now that the majority of politicians have done a poor job of protecting the average guy with regard to the transfer from poor to rich. Just because you get to say who the money gets transferred to ( from rich to poor) - is that what makes you think you are smarter or more moral than fiscal conservatives?The (imperfect) market does an okay job, and it is a lot less irritating ( and much cheaper and more honest)  than the preppie policy makers and central planners you worship.

BondGuy's picture
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Actually, you don't know what i believe. But, that's Ok, for your world to work i've got to fit in a certain box. I get it.Singling out the repubs is putting blame exactly where it belongs. All, the laws that allow the fleecing of the poor passed under repub leadership or congressional control. The polictical economics of the repubs is to fleece the poor legally.  Has the republican party not been a rock in the road to economic recovery? At who's expense? Not yours! It's all about getting power back in their hands. They don't care if it hurts the common man. The common man is not part of their party. The poor man who's hours have been cut by recession is not part of their party. Think about this for a moment: Small businessman are bitching about having to provide health care to their employees. You would think small business people would want healthy employees. After-all healthy employees are good for business. More productivity etc, right? So, what's the problem? The problem is the small business owner doesn't want to give any more of his money to his employees. Employees, i might add, who are enriching the businessman. It's much more profitable for the businessman to fire the sick employee and hire a healthy one. You side with those who agree with this thinking. How is that doing the right thing? How, does that square with God?Insurance companies are allowed to drop those who are seriously ill. Hospitals use loopholes to refuse treatment to the uninsured critically ill. All in the name of profit. Of course, rich as you are this will never happen to you. You side with those who are Ok with this and allow it to happen. You side with those who are paid to make sure it continues. How is that doing the right thing? God Ok with turning away the sick because they can't pay?You are correct about people being misinformed or uninformed. That people are blaming the current admin for the economy is proof of that. The repubs are playing it for all it's worth. And, so we're clear, what i'm saying is that there hasn't been enough time for recovery. The repubs have done everything they can do to prevent a recovery from happening. The average voter, uniformed, or misinformed, doesn't realize the time it takes to recover. If the economy is in the tank at election time the incumbants get the boot. Witness George Bush in 92. Fact is, then, as it is now, the govt has done what is needed and recovery is on line to take place. Question: When you pass from this earth and are at the Pearly Gates and St. Peter asks: "Why did you help people who hurt so many of your fellow man?" What's your answer?  

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so we're clear, what i'm saying is that there hasn't been enough time for recovery. The repubs have done everything they can do to prevent a recovery from happening. To be clear, I am not a fan of the Repubs or any other professional politicians. I would be in favor of sending local farmers to sit in term, if it wouldn't destroy their business. I can see have career professionals in the military, state department and so on. Saying that (more) career politicians will help the common man is like saying we should pay people to burn more coal to save the polar ice caps.  When you pass from this earth and are at the Pearly Gates and St. Peter asks: "Why did you help people who hurt so many of your fellow man?" What's your answer?I tried to keep it local, help people in my community, and not worry too much about the fate of the world. I care about the earth and our children. Folks should have meaningful work that gives them dignity and allows them to trade goods and services with people in the community. Your progressive pals have sold out to big business, big government, and (government) unions. If you can't see the corruption, if it doesn't make you sad and feel sick, we have nothing to talk about. Examples of the sell-out are everywhere: a static education system, union workers smoking pot on the job and resisting drug testing even though they are on the public dollar, career politicians, self serving wealth redistribution ( stick you hand in the pot while it passes). We probably share a lot of the same caring values toward our fellow man. I can't believe that you support the status quo. Trying to change it without real change defines insanity. The really funny thing is, you probably think people like me are ignorant. The thing that has changed recently, - maybe you noticed - we don't care what you think about us any more. I'm going to shut up and vote and keep my head down. With regards to investing, this has inspired me to talk about things like having your own permanent insurance policy, which can't be touched by creditors, where Uncle Sam can't look inside and you'll never pay another penny in taxes (unless they change the laws, be vigilant). I'm more holistic and goals - oriented in my planning, more interested in protecting from the downside and disaster and legacy planning. I hope God approves at the end.

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BondGuy wrote:Ah, the rich people speak!So, none of you need credit? And, when you do, it's only for the short term. I'm not surprised. Meanwhile in the not so wealthy neighborhoods, where people are scraping to make their property tax payments,  your friendly neighborhood bank has fleeced it customers with interest rates that would make a loan shark blush. Charging rates so high, that the wealthiest among us could not pay the money back. They Prey on the poor and get richer for doing so. They sleep at night by putting blame on their victims, calling them dead beats, and fiscally irresponsible. Some of you have called them the same on this thread.  If there is even a chance someone will not be able to pay their property taxes, why in the world would they own the property to start with? Financial ignorance, just as all forms of ignorance, is not a defense it is an excuse. Just an fyi - As a child, we were dirt poor but we were very happy. I made the same financial mistakes as the people you are grandstanding for. I could of easily filed bankruptcy and started from scratch but I decided to educate myself and slowly pull my way out of that ditch. It was one of the reasons I decided to enter this field. I hope someday you realize the difference between people looking for a handout and people looking for a hand up. If you truly cared as much as you, and the others with the same poor pitiful lower class attitude, like to sound you would address the REAL underlying concern... education. The public education system does not come close to preparing teenagers for the real world. Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....

iliketennis's picture
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Personal responsibility and regulation to better consumer protection are not mutually exclusive.

N.D.'s picture
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There is a difference between selling toys with lead base paint and providing a credit card with OBVIOUS TERMS ATTACHED that only a fool would accept. This is an example of a greedy supplier providing a product to a greedy consumer. There is NO REASON a person MUST have a credit card. I cannot understand why the supplier is at fault?

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N.D. wrote:BondGuy wrote:Ah, the rich people speak!So, none of you need credit? And, when you do, it's only for the short term. I'm not surprised. Meanwhile in the not so wealthy neighborhoods, where people are scraping to make their property tax payments,  your friendly neighborhood bank has fleeced it customers with interest rates that would make a loan shark blush. Charging rates so high, that the wealthiest among us could not pay the money back. They Prey on the poor and get richer for doing so. They sleep at night by putting blame on their victims, calling them dead beats, and fiscally irresponsible. Some of you have called them the same on this thread.  If there is even a chance someone will not be able to pay their property taxes, why in the world would they own the property to start with? Financial ignorance, just as all forms of ignorance, is not a defense it is an excuse. Just an fyi - As a child, we were dirt poor but we were very happy. I made the same financial mistakes as the people you are grandstanding for. I could of easily filed bankruptcy and started from scratch but I decided to educate myself and slowly pull my way out of that ditch. It was one of the reasons I decided to enter this field. I hope someday you realize the difference between people looking for a handout and people looking for a hand up. If you truly cared as much as you, and the others with the same poor pitiful lower class attitude, like to sound you would address the REAL underlying concern... education. The public education system does not come close to preparing teenagers for the real world. Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....

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iliketennis wrote:Personal responsibility and regulation to better consumer protection are not mutually exclusive.Witness, the financial meltdown. Oh wait a minute, politicians and regulators are going to change for the better this time.AFTER the bailout. After supporting the big banks at the expense of the competition. AFTER taking most of Detroit, and creating an energy policy that puts alternative energy mostly at the receiving end of government handouts. NOW you trust the government to protect consumers? ( Not laughing my a** off.)

tenthtee's picture
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N.D. wrote:There is a difference between selling toys with lead base paint and providing a credit card with OBVIOUS TERMS ATTACHED that only a fool would accept. This is an example of a greedy supplier providing a product to a greedy consumer. There is NO REASON a person MUST have a credit card. I cannot understand why the supplier is at fault?If demand dried up, what would happen to the price of personal credit?BG says we should wait around for the stimulus to kick in, the "repubs" have been obstructionist. Even the repubs don't really get, mayb starting a little. This grass roots  movement - the education of the masses about what is really going on - is a little threatening to the status quo. You ain't seen nothing yet. Do I think this will be good for the price of stocks and bonds? You bet!

tenthtee's picture
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 rich as you are this will never happen to you. You side with those who are Ok with this and allow it to happen. You side with those who are paid to make sure it continues. How is that doing the right thing? God Ok with turning away the sick because they can't pay?I am not rich. I do not side with the status quo. I am afraid of losing what little I have managed to build. Most of it is lifestyle. I thank God for my blessings. Okay, I'm rich in that I have learned how to live by my wits a little, and been lucky where some folks have bad luck. Every day is a new day. Thank God I can still pay cash for my kids college and all the other bills, including regular golf. People who are making just a little less than I are getting college grants and other handouts. I am way below 250k on the 1040. Why should I start cold calling and make a weenie out of myself, so I can pay more taxes so BG can be Mr. Doogooder and give them away?I'm scared about how America is sliding into the the jaws of socialism. I have lived in a socialist country, it ain't pretty. As a boomer, I can tell you that fighting the status quo is more fun than being PC. I get the poor or sick boomers fighting for socialism, what I don't get is how the rich boomers can hasten the decline of America with their apparently well intentioned but misplaced idealism. I guess I'll never understand.

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N.D. wrote: If there is even a chance someone will not be able to pay their property taxes, why in the world would they own the property to start with? Financial ignorance, just as all forms of ignorance, is not a defense it is an excuse. Actually it's neither. It's a reason. As for the robbing Peter to pay Paul school of finance, How it works is like this: poor guy takes out a loan to buy a new furnace and hot water heater for his house. He needs a loan because at 8 bucks an hour it is impossible to save enough money to buy these things out right. He has a thin file FICO score of 820 making him buyable in loan world terms. Still, even with a higher FICO score than most of us he doesn't get favorable terms. The bank wants 21% secured as a second mortgage on his house. Of course the bank's plan is to take the house. He agrees because he needs heat. To pay the loan he takes a second job. That works for a while, but then he injures himself at work. His boss fires him and now the wolf is at the door. No excuses, not ignorance, just the way it is. He loses his house and the the elite (that would be you) point at him and call him stupid. Just an fyi - As a child, we were dirt poor but we were very happy. I made the same financial mistakes as the people you are grandstanding for. I could of easily filed bankruptcy and started from scratch but I decided to educate myself and slowly pull my way out of that ditch. It was one of the reasons I decided to enter this field. Just so we're on the same page, i'm not grandstanding for anyone. I'm against the fleecing of the underclasses. There has been a legalized tranference of wealth in this country, all legal. Who in their right mind thinks it's OK to charge anyone 30% interest? Let alone those who can least afford it? I'll tell you who, your republican congressman who has the banker's hand in his pocket. This person has voted against the poor at every opportunity. All you voted for him!I hope someday you realize the difference between people looking for a handout and people looking for a hand up. If you truly cared as much as you, and the others with the same poor pitiful lower class attitude, like to sound you would address the REAL underlying concern... education. The public education system does not come close to preparing teenagers for the real world. Characterizing those in need, the working poor, as looking for a handout is an insult to everyone of those people. That thinking also neatly gets you off the hook for not giving a damn. They're bums, right? They get what they deserve, and they certainly don't deserve help! That about sum it up? Of course it does. In your own words they are ignorant. Of course, in reality  that is not true, but because you couldn't live with yourself if you admiitted the truth you buy the lie.As i reread my post I'm trying to figure out where you get that i pity the poor? This isn't about pitying the poor. It's about not taking advantage of those with lesser means. How and why that is allowed to happen. I agree we need to do more about education in poor districts. In my state we are doing it. Over 2/3 of the education budget raised from state taxes goes to 26 school districts. Let me put that in context for you. There are 603 school districts in my state. Yet, 66 cents out of every education dollar goes to the 26 poorest districts. The other 577 districts get to split the remaining 33 cents. Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....Soapbox? That's funny! Coming from a guy who is posting on other threads about being owned ?  I point out that you've bought into a bought and paid for belief system created as part of a slick marketing campaign designed to bring repubs back to power and I'm on a soapbox? If believing in something you don't understand isn't being owned, what is?

tenthtee's picture
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What's left when left is left of left? You keep dividing with fractions because the left is never happy. The pieces get mighty small, but you never run out of fractions, only meaningful observations about them. This is what happens when you have a shrinking pie. We're all being owned - I'm not "down" for it, but I hope the majority becomes silent, just like the good old days. ( Okay, they weren't so great, maybe better though.)

BondGuy's picture
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That I care about people being fleeced with the blessing of the repubican party makes me left of left? So, you can't care about people and money? Be careful what pigeon holes you put people into. As for being a do gooder - i write about the FACT that the repubs have helped the rich fleece the poor and it reads handout? Not at all!!! The message is "Stop ripping people off !" The pigs feeding at the trough ended with the 08 crash. The old saying pigs get slaughtered fits perfectly. Now the pigs and all who support them are an unhappy lot. They long for the good old days and desperately want them back. And you will help them.

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No, I won't help them. My plan is to downsize the house, lower my income and taxes, but have steady income streams ( SS, savings, home equity, some biz equity, part time work). I expect the poor baby boomers will turn America into an entitlement state.Therefore, I am taking it easier now, and enjoying life, will likely die at my desk ( if I'm there instead of doing something else). I don't really care what happens to the pigs, I'm not the guy who is defending the status quo.  I see the reality and I adjust. China is the new America, in terms of opportunity. You and I are just a couple of gnats fighting on the head of a pin :). Your message is unclear.

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Regulations are needed in many sectors. I think people just need to figure out that, as with everything else, regulation is a term that encompasses a lot of different types of action. It's not necessarily price dictatorship or rationing of goods.

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Thanks, President Obama! I just love to stand transfixed watching train wrecks and fearing for my way of life and loved ones' future. If we can only get the regulations right, everything's gonna be all right. Here's 10 million in soft dollars from the insurance industry, there's 10 million from the RIAs. Let's keep everybody guessing over at the train wreck while we loot the big house.

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BondGuy wrote:You really are sheep, aren't you?Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group. Everyday, I honestly hope that people aren't this stupid. But, here it is, a thread like this one, stupidity on parade!BondGuy, you are right, of course.  But perhaps the rest of us are relatively silent because we have concluded that if you choose to throw mud with the swine you are sure to end up stinking and dirty.  Plus, it's more enjoyable and more of a learning experience to spend time with people who have an open mind.  If someone has managed to become a "financial advisor" without having any clue about economics and policy, as many of the participants on this board clearly have, then it is surely too late for them... 

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lovindaindy wrote:I started my business on credit cards as well.  The interest rates were 0%.  Paid them off by the time the rate was going to go up - to 9%!The problem isn't the interest rates.  The problem is letting people who can't afford credit, get it.  High interest rates are supposed to be a curb on demand.  If the pool of borrowers is large, those higher interest rates are supposed to be a check on people NOT applying for credit.  The problem is that the borrowers with bad credit feel like it is free money.  It is a lack of financial education.  As long as that exists, you are going to have high interest rates for people who shouldn't have them.If you took time out of the equation and asked that person who has bad credit - you can pay $1000 for this big screen tv, or you can pay $10,000 for it, which one do you choose?  I bet they would say $1000.  Unfortunately, people don't understand interest.  And it's never put in to perspective. Whether it be revolving or mortgage, the problem is not the people who want credit who shouldn't have it.  People have always wanted that.  The problem is that the financial industry found a way to give it to them, pass off the risk, and make tons of money for everyone who colluded in the scheme along the way.  The people didn't change - they've never been financially sophisticated.  The financial industry didn't really change - they've always been equal parts ingenius, unscrupulous and greedy.  What changed is that the regulators fell asleep and allowed massive financial risks to be passed down the line to tax payers.  De-regulation, a concept so necessary in the early eightees, was taken way too far in the Bush administration.  As is often the case, we lurched from one extreme to the other.  And now, before we have time to implement a correction, it appears that most here would push the pendulum even further up the de-regulatory arc, probably until it swings all the way around and hits us in the a$$ - again.But this board represents the financial industry and there's obviously no saving us from ourselves!

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A fool and his money are easily parted. That's what you have social services for - the thing I hate are the bailouts and takeovers. They say it is to maintain liquidity in the system. Everything and anything in the name of liquidity. You can never get around that one.It is the begining of complexity and the end of the individual. All you can do is attempt to diversify your own stuff over time. Remember, nature prefers to burn over many different types of natural areas as a way to kill disease and weeds and renew the forest What we have here is a forest that is never allowed to burn. Out West, that has harbored many funky type of invasive insect species, and the Forest Service ( a U.S. government agency) has been forced to allow nature to take its course and burn down the forests at times. I don't believe the T Party will be bashful about doing what needs to be done - as the average person's economic IQ goes up, we can begin to sit back and enjoy the fruits. Regulations are not the really interesting or relevant thing right now, in a relative sense. I believe the deregulation started with Clinton. Sheesh, where are all of the conservatives here?When the markets and greed went to excess, we lost our nerve. Just like immigration, for the love of Pete, why don't we just put everyone to work and start creating some wealth? Untie our hands so we can be good capitalists. I can't take it any more, seriously, I have to flee for a while.

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BondGuy wrote:N.D. wrote: If there is even a chance someone will not be able to pay their property taxes, why in the world would they own the property to start with? Financial ignorance, just as all forms of ignorance, is not a defense it is an excuse. Actually it's neither. It's a reason. As for the robbing Peter to pay Paul school of finance, How it works is like this: poor guy takes out a loan to buy a new furnace and hot water heater for his house. He needs a loan because at 8 bucks an hour it is impossible to save enough money to buy these things out right. He has a thin file FICO score of 820 making him buyable in loan world terms. Still, even with a higher FICO score than most of us he doesn't get favorable terms. The bank wants 21% secured as a second mortgage on his house. Of course the bank's plan is to take the house. He agrees because he needs heat. To pay the loan he takes a second job. That works for a while, but then he injures himself at work. His boss fires him and now the wolf is at the door. No excuses, not ignorance, just the way it is. He loses his house and the the elite (that would be you) point at him and call him stupid. Lot of "what ifs" there but I feel the poor guy should rent not buy. Just the way it is. I rented until I was able to buy. I own a very modest home that will not bankrupt me if the garbage disposal tears up.I did not call anyone "stupid," I said ignorant. Look up the definition. Everyone is ignorant of something. I guess you are ignorant to equities since you sling bonds (just teasing  but hopefully you get the point) BondGuy wrote:N.D. wrote:Just an fyi - As a child, we were dirt poor but we were very happy. I made the same financial mistakes as the people you are grandstanding for. I could of easily filed bankruptcy and started from scratch but I decided to educate myself and slowly pull my way out of that ditch. It was one of the reasons I decided to enter this field. Just so we're on the same page, i'm not grandstanding for anyone. I'm against the fleecing of the underclasses. There has been a legalized tranference of wealth in this country, all legal. Who in their right mind thinks it's OK to charge anyone 30% interest? Let alone those who can least afford it? I'll tell you who, your republican congressman who has the banker's hand in his pocket. This person has voted against the poor at every opportunity. All you voted for him!We will just have to disagree, I suppose. I think that people control their own path while you feel that the cannot and therefore need guardrails for some reason??? Our President has said many times that he and Michelle both are results of hard work and living the American Dream. What does the underclass not get that Obama's mother or Michelle's parents did get? How is it that against ALL odds Obama was able to obtain an education and climb the ladder run by run to get where he is today?BondGuy wrote:N.D. wrote:I hope someday you realize the difference between people looking for a handout and people looking for a hand up. If you truly cared as much as you, and the others with the same poor pitiful lower class attitude, like to sound you would address the REAL underlying concern... education. The public education system does not come close to preparing teenagers for the real world. Characterizing those in need, the working poor, as looking for a handout is an insult to everyone of those people. That thinking also neatly gets you off the hook for not giving a damn. They're bums, right? They get what they deserve, and they certainly don't deserve help! That about sum it up? Of course it does. In your own words they are ignorant. Of course, in reality  that is not true, but because you couldn't live with yourself if you admiitted the truth you buy the lie.As i reread my post I'm trying to figure out where you get that i pity the poor? This isn't about pitying the poor. It's about not taking advantage of those with lesser means. How and why that is allowed to happen. I agree we need to do more about education in poor districts. In my state we are doing it. Over 2/3 of the education budget raised from state taxes goes to 26 school districts. Let me put that in context for you. There are 603 school districts in my state. Yet, 66 cents out of every education dollar goes to the 26 poorest districts. The other 577 districts get to split the remaining 33 cents. I am not characterizing anyone, that would be you. I am drawing a line between the two. I am 100% for helping people that want to help themselves. You are asking me if they are "bums" and "they get what they deserve." You must enjoy putting words in other's mouth or assuming asinine thoughts when you read a post. But since you mentioned what people "deserve" I will add my thoughts on it. People that are born or become a U.S. citizen deserve the OPPORTUNITY to better themselves. I didn't say they deserve a better life but I did say they deserve a chance to give themselves a better life.BondGuy wrote:N.D. wrote:Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC....Soapbox? That's funny! Coming from a guy who is posting on other threads about being owned ?  I point out that you've bought into a bought and paid for belief system created as part of a slick marketing campaign designed to bring repubs back to power and I'm on a soapbox? If believing in something you don't understand isn't being owned, what is?Yes soapbox... my "owned" post was funny to me. Not sure your point. Unless you are trying to make a connection that I want regulation on the board but not in the markets??? Also I have not bought into any system that has an actual chance of being in control in Washington. But I do believe we need change. Most importantly a change in the materialistic need, desire for instant gratification and fear of not being politically correct.Just like my disapproval with Upward basketball programs, contrary to belief, it is ok to lose, right. If not then lets watch the Bears/Packers tonight and hopefully they will tie so no one has to get their feelings hurt and feel subordinate to anyone else.

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loneMADman wrote:BondGuy wrote:You really are sheep, aren't you?Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group. Everyday, I honestly hope that people aren't this stupid. But, here it is, a thread like this one, stupidity on parade!BondGuy, you are right, of course.  But perhaps the rest of us are relatively silent because we have concluded that if you choose to throw mud with the swine you are sure to end up stinking and dirty.  Plus, it's more enjoyable and more of a learning experience to spend time with people who have an open mind.  If someone has managed to become a "financial advisor" without having any clue about economics and policy, as many of the participants on this board clearly have, then it is surely too late for them... Ah, a glimmer of hope!Well said!

rogerballs's picture
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[Get off your soap box and teach someone Mr. 2mm GDC.... BondGuy has been a great help to me and others on this board. he has earned the right to his opinions. We can all agree to disagree. The constant fighting is the problem with this country today!

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Plus, it's more enjoyable and more of a learning experience to spend time with people who have an open mind.  If someone has managed to become a "financial advisor" without having any clue about economics and policy, as many of the participants on this board clearly have, then it is surely too late for them...Really,  Mad?Not much deep thinking going on in this thread. I expected better from this group.Seriously, Bond Guy? Not much more reason to go on here, I reckon I'll just go clean my guns and feed the pigs.  

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

Yes, seriously!Y'all are jumin' on the anti Obama bandwagon. A bandwagon that is Madison Avenue slick. None of us can understand how blind or naive or uniformed or misunformed the Bogleheads are, but then y'all fall this load of bullshit? Seriously? We had a balanced budget and limited government spending under Clinton. We also had a budget surplus. Any Clinton supporters in the group?We had an energy policy under Carter that reduced our dependance on foreign oil by 50%. Reagan undid it as fast as he could. If we'd kept those policies in place there would have been no Gulf War and no Iraq War. We would be masters of our own economy. How many Carter fans we got here?Undo health care? Exactly how would that affect you? Is there anyone in this country who doesn't deserve health care? By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive the bailouts were unnecessary and we shouldn't have done them?By a show of hands how many of you have been tangibly adversely affected by the current administration? By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive there has been enough time since the 08 meltdown for recovery to take place? Yeah, tenth, seriously! 

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Though I am not a big fan of either Carter or Clinton, BG is dead-nuts, balls-on accurate about what they tried to do/did regarding oil dependence and budget surpluses, respectively.  I give Carter credit for having the balls to tell America what it needed to hear, not what it wanted to hear....Even if it cost him at the polls.

Jennifer Nettles's picture
Joined: 2010-03-01

BondGuy wrote:Actually, you don't know what i believe. But, that's Ok, for your world to work i've got to fit in a certain box. I get it.Singling out the repubs is putting blame exactly where it belongs. All, the laws that allow the fleecing of the poor passed under repub leadership or congressional control. The polictical economics of the repubs is to fleece the poor legally.  Has the republican party not been a rock in the road to economic recovery? At who's expense? Not yours! It's all about getting power back in their hands. They don't care if it hurts the common man. The common man is not part of their party. The poor man who's hours have been cut by recession is not part of their party. Think about this for a moment: Small businessman are bitching about having to provide health care to their employees. You would think small business people would want healthy employees. After-all healthy employees are good for business. More productivity etc, right? So, what's the problem? The problem is the small business owner doesn't want to give any more of his money to his employees. Employees, i might add, who are enriching the businessman. It's much more profitable for the businessman to fire the sick employee and hire a healthy one. You side with those who agree with this thinking. How is that doing the right thing? How, does that square with God?Insurance companies are allowed to drop those who are seriously ill. Hospitals use loopholes to refuse treatment to the uninsured critically ill. All in the name of profit. Of course, rich as you are this will never happen to you. You side with those who are Ok with this and allow it to happen. You side with those who are paid to make sure it continues. How is that doing the right thing? God Ok with turning away the sick because they can't pay?You are correct about people being misinformed or uninformed. That people are blaming the current admin for the economy is proof of that. The repubs are playing it for all it's worth. And, so we're clear, what i'm saying is that there hasn't been enough time for recovery. The repubs have done everything they can do to prevent a recovery from happening. The average voter, uniformed, or misinformed, doesn't realize the time it takes to recover. If the economy is in the tank at election time the incumbants get the boot. Witness George Bush in 92. Fact is, then, as it is now, the govt has done what is needed and recovery is on line to take place. Question: When you pass from this earth and are at the Pearly Gates and St. Peter asks: "Why did you help people who hurt so many of your fellow man?" What's your answer?  oh palezzzz.     You trying to get to heaven like Gates et al and the other limo libs?1.  people are greedy2. free markets work3. failure and stupidity has consequences.    America needs MORE personal responsibility.  (just like T. jefferson et al meant it to be)You have guilt brother?   thats your issue.Karl marx sound wonderful on paper.   it just does not work.If they can get 25%......God bless em. how that war on poverty going?truth in lending?home mortgage modifications?10 years from now.......your hero liz warren bs agency with be one more monster govt clusterfukc. like ALWAYS 

Jennifer Nettles's picture
Joined: 2010-03-01

BondGuy wrote:Yes, seriously!Y'all are jumin' on the anti Obama bandwagon. A bandwagon that is Madison Avenue slick. None of us can understand how blind or naive or uniformed or misunformed the Bogleheads are, but then y'all fall this load of bullshit? Seriously? We had a balanced budget and limited government spending under Clinton. We also had a budget surplus. Any Clinton supporters in the group?We had an energy policy under Carter that reduced our dependance on foreign oil by 50%. Reagan undid it as fast as he could. If we'd kept those policies in place there would have been no Gulf War and no Iraq War. We would be masters of our own economy. How many Carter fans we got here?Undo health care? Exactly how would that affect you? Is there anyone in this country who doesn't deserve health care? By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive the bailouts were unnecessary and we shouldn't have done them?By a show of hands how many of you have been tangibly adversely affected by the current administration? By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive there has been enough time since the 08 meltdown for recovery to take place? Yeah, tenth, seriously! dumbest post in RR message board history.by a show of hands, which BS govt crap waste agency is a failure?post office?  chap 11amtrack  chap 11fema?   go AintsFDA   eggs over easy anyone?IRS?   call em  50% chance your answer is wronghud?   funnydept of education?    our kids are stupid.tax code?  funnysec?  in madolfs office for 6 month  social security?    take my money.  give it to the MF govt to piss away   brilliantmedicare?  black hole of mf wastegoog the owebama pork waste stimulis bulls^%$#.  its online.  start reading that badboy if you want to get very angry.yep   we need more big MF govt like owebama wants.   it always works so wellas far as the recovery?    if owebama was not there and we used all this pork for supply side. trickle down voodoo economics........we would be rocking againmadison ave?     how stupidyou want to fix healthcare?   free market incentives-duhlasiks-it works  you know why?   duh  free market incentivesplastic surgery also add 30 million people to a piece of crap system and it will SAVE a trillion.  that might be the biggest MF lie in the history of politics.cant wait for that tril in savings   

loneMADman's picture
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Joined: 2010-05-10

tenthtee wrote:A fool and his money are easily parted. That's what you have social services for - the thing I hate are the bailouts and takeovers. They say it is to maintain liquidity in the system. Everything and anything in the name of liquidity. You can never get around that one.It is the begining of complexity and the end of the individual. All you can do is attempt to diversify your own stuff over time. Remember, nature prefers to burn over many different types of natural areas as a way to kill disease and weeds and renew the forest What we have here is a forest that is never allowed to burn. Out West, that has harbored many funky type of invasive insect species, and the Forest Service ( a U.S. government agency) has been forced to allow nature to take its course and burn down the forests at times. I don't believe the T Party will be bashful about doing what needs to be done - as the average person's economic IQ goes up, we can begin to sit back and enjoy the fruits. Regulations are not the really interesting or relevant thing right now, in a relative sense. I believe the deregulation started with Clinton. Sheesh, where are all of the conservatives here?When the markets and greed went to excess, we lost our nerve. Just like immigration, for the love of Pete, why don't we just put everyone to work and start creating some wealth? Untie our hands so we can be good capitalists. I can't take it any more, seriously, I have to flee for a while. Tenth, what conservatives who use this analogy forget is that nature does its work over the course of decades and centuries.  We're people, not ecologies, and have to work on a different timeline.  I would rather have had the financial intervention we had, even if it rubs my free market sensitivies the wrong way, than to have a repeat of the depression, with 15 lost years and millions of lost lives.  Maybe you don't think that's likely, but I can tell you that I was a corporate treasurer in the fall of 2008 and I saw the credit markets dry up in real time, even before this made the Fall headlines.  We were heading toward a very bad place, very fast.  There were no deals to be had as the entire credit system was in a state of cross-default seizure.  Had Paulson and Bush and the Democratic Congress not stepped in, there is ZERO doubt we would be much worse off today.So let's park the idealogical crutches in the closet, get over selective amnesia and get real about solving our problems.  As for the Tea Party not being bashful, I agree with that part.  As far as knowing what to do, well, they're the modern day Scarecrow; there's a lot of them in the fields these days, but there's not one with any brains.To paraphrase Louie from Taxi, "Tea Party, I only wish you were smarter, so you would know how dumb you are."  

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Nettlesome, you calling something a stupid post is perhaps the highest compliment indeed.  "I only wish YOU were smarter..."You point to a lot of examples of government incompetence, and there are surely plenty.  But what you ignore is that it has been a Republican president at the head of each of these agencies for 28 of the last 42 years!  That's what you get when you put people in charge of stuff they don't like and don't understand; incompetence.  PJ O'Rourke said it years ago "Republicans campaign on the idea that government can't do anything right, and when they get elected, they prove it."Now don't get me wrong, I think both Republicans and Democrats are incompetent.  The difference is that Democrats are at least trying to do something positive.  If Republicans would simply run on a platform of smaller, more cost-effective government, with candidates who had a few still firing brain cells, they'd be a viable alternative.  Instead their new slate of candidates looks like the crew from Animal House, without the laughs.  They're going to do all the damage they can before they get expelled.

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Does anyone think that this mess is truly fixable without first reforming the two party system?

N.D.'s picture
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Honestly, no. There is no way the amount of diversity in this country can be equally represented by two ideologies. Thats why the feds should step down and give the states back the responsibility and authority they so desperately need.Feds = military policy, monetary policy, foreign policy, interstate/foreign commerce and nothing more...

BondGuy's picture
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Joined: 2006-09-21

 Lone, well said.Ok, let's get down to the central bug up the tea party's ass when it comes to money, the bailouts. First, are we all on the same page here with regard to the status of TARP. That is, it's a done deal within the next week or  two, no money can be spent once it ends, and can we agree on the CBO's number as to the total cost to the government of TARP coming in at about 66 billion? Does anyone here remember what this board was like two years ago this month? I do. I can describe the posts with just two words, fear and panic. Why was there fear and panic among some here?  Among most here? Because we had ring side seats. We saw the hole in the hull. We saw the water gushing in, unstopable and the pumps unable to keep up. Unlike those on decks far above us we knew what it meant. We knew the ship was going to sink. And, we knew it was going to do so very quickly. While there are many comparisions of the imminent capsize to the Great Depression, the truth is, what we witnessed was unprecedented. This was more than a compression of the economy or a collapse of one financial sector within that economy. This was the collapse of the entire monetary system. Not only was the economy in danger, the very delivery system that makes having an economy possible was in mortal danger.  Fear? youbetcha! I told my wife, brothers and sister, as well as my kids to pull as much cash out of the banks as they could. The ATMs were working today, But tomorrow? WE knew the ship was doomed unless saved by extraordinary measures. Quite frankly, exactly two years ago today that rescue was far from a sure thing. When someone says to me "I'm against those bailouts" I ask them if their ATM card worked the last time they used it. "Of course it did" comes the reply. I then ask what they would do if it didn't work? They are those from the decks far away from the damage. those with little understanding of how close we came and with no understanding of what it was we came so close to. How sweet that naivete. Now those people, the naive, the uninformed, the carefree, are being played for political gain. The Republicans have been a rock in the road at every bend to slow recovery for their benefit in 2010 and beyond. it's a strategy designed to win back power.  There is not a Congressman or Senator in this country that does not know the truth of the bailouts. That they were needed more to restore trust than replace capital. The 66 billion final price tag bares that out. They know, behind closed doors where the TARP deal was cut, that without it we were doomed. They know that without the bailouts the working life of a viable ATM card was measured in days. They knew that at least 25% of the companies in the S&P 500 would be unable to make payroll beyond October. And, without a delivery system to get that money to employees paying them was moot. They also knew that the dollar would be worthless in a matter of minutes had collapse come. So the deal was made to get the votes. Let those who need to save face by voting No vote No. I tell those who are against the bailouts that without the yes votes the first week of October 2008 their ATM cards would have stopped working by the second week of October. By the end of October they would have needed a gun to protect their property. Don't believe me? Again I ask, if your ATM card didn't work what would you do? What would you do if you found out you were wiped out? Your money is gone. There will not be anymore paychecks. That's what the bailouts prevented - so far. if you hear anyone tell you differently, they are either uninformed, misinformed or are being politically dishonest. The bailouts prevented amageddon. When i call those here who agree with the Tea Party's point of view stupid, this is why I say that. It's Ok to have strongly held political beliefs. I  could care less how any of you feel about Obama. Hate him, fine with me. But to agree with the TP is to agree the bailouts weren't needed. The only reason you still have a way of life that has been uninterrupted from what you've always known is because of the bailouts. You know better or at least you should. The danger here is there will be a next time. And, even with the bailouts we got lucky we didn't lose everything. With the not so deep thinkers in control, next time, we might not be so lucky.     

loneMADman's picture
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I agree the two-party system is broken.  The multi-party system others countries use has become more effective.  They have to compromise to get things done as there is never a hope of having a super-majority to ram your will down people's throats, so win at all costs is pointless.  When I was a kid, we were taught, with examples, of how the American political system was superior because it was based on democratic principles and compromise.  The latter is clearly dead and unlimited corporate / soft-money donations will continue to put more than a flesh wound in the former.  I doubt middle school kids today can be getting the same feel-good messages we were taught.  No wonder they're depressed.

Jennifer Nettles's picture
Joined: 2010-03-01

 wow  bondyou just trumped the all time retarded post with one even stupidierthere is plenty of blame to go around with subprime meltdown.   what "we" did with CDO's etc was horrible...but the CORE reason for the subprime meltdown was (as usual) was unintendend consequeces of govt bullsti mettling and failure of govt   (please see 1. above.   "people are greedy").  without incentives for people to better themselves, crap fails.   (bond, you need to repeat this 25 times aday)the problem was caused because of liberal ideals that everyone should own a home.fnm,fre,cra,enterprise zones,clintons witch doctor mortgages etc etcand, as ususal, all this crap seems great on papaer  (lets help low income people get homes.   how can that be bad?)            (please see karl marx, sounds great on papaer, doesnt work)  this elizabrth warren,finreg, dodd frank clusterfukc is really kind of funny to watch.   yep, theri 3000 pages will fix things.  funnyyou know what regulation DOES work?  simple, hard core limits to keep people in between the ditches(ie Reg whatever  {reg t?}    you cant magin stocks over 50%  boom  works)you want me to solve and ensure that subprime with NEVER happen again?    3000 pages>?  nopeone sentence.law  :  "no mortages will be allowed to be sold from the original issuer"wow.  brilliant      incentive to make damn sure people have skin in the game to get people to pay you back     wow  that was hardwith no welfare govt agency bs invovled  (ie  commiemae and commiemac)bond, you have some incredible insights in this business and the fixed income markets but you have a naive 11th grade English major view of the rest of the world.    you sound like my kids and their stupid friends.    liek I tell them, finish your trig homework.   get a real job.   spend 5 years in the real world,then lets talk.those SEC mensa boys sta in madolfs office for 6 mg months.......bondthere was NO COMPANY there.no tradeszero trades.  nothing.  no companyno company6 months sitting therethey missed itNO MF COMPANY THERE    THEY MISSED ITim sure these guys will fix healthcare.   jesus, how can people be so gd stupid       

tenthtee's picture
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Joined: 2006-11-16

Well said, like poetry, Nettles.There is no debating BG and some of these other libs. It always ends up with them calling you stupid.BGs version of being accountable for name calling is to lecture on the obvious need for liquidity in the financial system.Speaking of real cause and effect, I wonder if America will begin to look more and more like Europe as we run out of money:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phnj-lofCvcA Spain-like city in the U.S. might be the best place to hang out:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LmL5T9iNFIThis could never happen in California!Thank goodness Obama will make everything "fair" in America.( " I belive in the concept that you pay as you go.") Ooooops -----http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUfo-RxkXA8 

tenthtee's picture
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Joined: 2006-11-16

The first clip is your beloved Ireland, BG. Last clip: Obama promises to stop using a credit card from China, tax the rich, "pay as we go."Forgot about the pay as we go part. Progressives are living in la-la land, and the debate usually ends with them saying that we are stupid.Check it out here. It always ends in name calling and trying to make us out to be ignorant. Even though of the conservatives here have probably travelled or living in foreign countries, and started out poor. Not good enough credentials. This is why a lot of folks are just turning off the progressive channel and  looking forward. Actions matter, not words.

loneMADman's picture
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Joined: 2010-05-10

Well said Nettles?!?!?!  The guy can't string a coherent sentence together to save his life.  Both the manner and the message are devoid of any signs of intelligence.  Well said?!?!  Even though I expected to disagree with your position on this, I expected a little more objectivity. It's okay to like wine but hate Boones Farm.  I guess it's a sign that at the conservative table, that's the only crap that's being served these days.

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