questions for the independents?

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brothaK's picture
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anyone start working at an independent companyorstart working with one or two established guys who went independent(i dont think there are any more situations of people STARTING off as independents, because it is nearly impossible to go "solo" indepentent)how did you like it, would you of chosen a different path from the beginning.. etc (basically I want the life story ) ------------------------------------------------------------ ------Anyone went from a big wire house (ML SB MS) to an independent COMPANY?is there a big difference in return, since you are still working for a company(someone else) or is it mainly for stress relief and just a lil bit more money

Devoted SA's picture
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Joined: 2006-03-28

Brotha...we (my rep and I) are from Edward Jones and left the Stepford community about 6 months ago. It's been a great transition, the only thing is, you HAVE to be prepared for the work it involves.
The initial leap is stressful, there's this sense of urgency that if you don't hurry and transfer all your clients right now, you'll loose them. You're working on/with a system you're not familiar with, and you feel out of your element. You don't know how much support you can count on from your new b/d.  Add the stess of having a "do not compete" clause hanging over your head, and worrying about coloring outside of the lines there.
A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

FreedomLvr's picture
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Nicole, that might have been the best analogy I've ever heard for the difference between working for the man or being him (or her). :)
brothaK, keep in mind that you can join an existing independent office where you'll negotiate an override with the existing branch manager, but the clients you develop would be yours to keep when you finally are able to qualify to be your own branch manager, whether you stuck with the same B/D or decided a different one would be a better fit for you.
One of the big differences is that you're not working FOR the broker/dealer as an independent.  You are your own company.  You're basically giving them 10% (or whatever) of your commissions to support your practice.  Just like any alliance either one of you can terminate the relationship at any time, however the CLIENTS are yours, and the B/D isn't going to fight you for them (as opposed to Ed Jones, Merrill, etc where the clients are theirs).
If you'd like to start as an independent (granted, someone else would still have to be your Office of Supervisory Jurisdiction), make sure you find an OSJ that's willing to take the time to train you.  Many B/D's would be able to steer you to offices in your area that are looking to train new reps.
GOOD LUCK!

troll's picture
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Devoted SA wrote:
A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

troll's picture
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FreedomLvr wrote: <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
One of the big differences is that you're not working FOR the broker/dealer as an independent.  You are your own company.  You're basically giving them 10% (or whatever) of your commissions to support your practice. 

Let's see how long that relationship lasts. In this compliance environment B/Ds are going to be willing for long to be eligible for big “failure to supervise” fines for the actions of “indys” they have OSJ responsibility for while trying to have a “hands off” attitude about business practices within the indy. This is a conflict that’s been a non-issue in the past, but will be one very, very soon.
 FreedomLvr wrote:
Just like any alliance either one of you can terminate the relationship at any time, however the CLIENTS are yours, and the B/D isn't going to fight you for them (as opposed to Ed Jones, Merrill, etc where the clients are theirs).

That’s a significant difference, except the clients don’t “belong” to Merrill, or SB or MS, as the courts have pointed out, but they do have the right to contest you for them should you leave.
 

Indyone's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote: A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.
I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.
I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 
I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...

babbling looney's picture
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Let's see how long that relationship lasts. In this compliance environment B/Ds are going to be willing for long to be eligible for big “failure to supervise” fines for the actions of “indys” they have OSJ responsibility for while trying to have a “hands off” attitude about business practices within the indy. This is a conflict that’s been a non-issue in the past, but will be one very, very soon.
Mike has a point here.  I understand that there is a rule proposed or actually in place to get rid of our ability to do bulk transfers if we would move from one B/D to another.  It also seems that every day there are more and more compliance procedures that take up more and more of our time.  My OSJ has told me of more changes coming down the pipe in the office inspections and mandatory compliance meetings. 

troll's picture
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Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote: A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.
I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 

I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;
http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp
The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.
When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   
Indyone wrote:
I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.
 
 

csmelnix's picture
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Joined: 2005-06-01

Mike,
A lot of what you list as missing are available here.   Two exceptions you are dead on are 1.  Individual Hedge Funds - we can only mingle in fund of hedge funds and can do inside SAM 2.  Financing is also limited here - there are somethings we can do but where we fall short v MS is collateralized loans. 
In terms of the other things - they're here now.  A good friend I have come to know and has helped me on some financial planning business is guy by the name of Greg Powell - who was the top financial planning advisor at MS and actually went nationwide teaching this business to MS advisors.  I can tell you, he would contradict you in every way and is living proof now at the benefits of independence at LPL (at least) v his career at MS.  For what that worth I guess, hey it's not for all people, and I think you're right, typically it isn't due to lack of spirit v lack of desire to take on ownership.
 

Indyone's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:
Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote: A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.
I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 

I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;
http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp
The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.
When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   
First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:
"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"
That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.
In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).
I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.
There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.
I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move.  They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population.  At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.
...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.
Indyone wrote:
I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.
It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent.  I only lost one account to a wirehouse in my years at the bank, and even that wasn't due to a superior investment strategy ( I saw what he sold...it was some SMA's that were mediocre at best)...the guy just happened to be a good golf prostitute, which is not a bad strategy for some folks.
On the other hand, I HAVE taken several accounts from wirehouses, including SM, ML and MS.  I have a Merrill statement on my desk right now.  Admittedly, it's small enough by Merrill standards ($250K) that they are probably not giving it the attention it needs, but I can make a living all day on those kinds of accounts.
I may lose an account to a wirehouse (heck, I may even lose an account to a warehouse for that matter!), but I'm confident that I'll gain more than I lose because of what I bring to the table.
These long diatribes just wear me out, but I felt I neede to correct some misconceptions and defend a B/D that has been nothing but excellent to work with.  Now it's been fun, but I must go...mama needs a new pair of shoes!!!

Devoted SA's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote:
A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Mike, what I meant was...at alot of the wirehouses (Merrill, SB etc) they have proprietary prodcuts the reps are "encouraged" (wink wink, nudge nudge) to sell. Wouldn't you say that's like ordering from a menu? Aren't there "recommended" portfolio strategies at your place?
Are you telling me that working at SB, Merrill etc there are no limitations on what you can offer, sell, hold etc? None whatsoever? If not, then I'd have to say the most compelling reason to go independent would be so you would be able to earn your full potential.

troll's picture
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Devoted SA wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote:
A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Mike, what I meant was...at alot of the wirehouses (Merrill, SB etc) they have proprietary prodcuts the reps are "encouraged" (wink wink, nudge nudge) to sell. Wouldn't you say that's like ordering from a menu? Aren't there "recommended" portfolio strategies at your place?
Are you telling me that working at SB, Merrill etc there are no limitations on what you can offer, sell, hold etc? None whatsoever? If not, then I'd have to say the most compelling reason to go independent would be so you would be able to earn your full potential.

 
I think you might want to actually work at a wirehouse before you buy into the dated stereotypes of "wink, wink" proprietary products. I just ain't so. Not only would I say there are no limitations on what you can buy, sell and hold (aside perhaps in some firms a prohibition on soliciting stocks with prices under $5) I'd say the menu available to wirehouse guys is larger and broader than what's available to you.
At a wirehouse you're given the widest possible array of products and services possible. You're free to pick and choose which you'll employ and what sort of business you'll do. Wanna be a stock jocky? Fine. Want to work only with SMAs? Fine. Want to work just with large 401k plans? Not a problem. Do the business, do it clean and you'll free to do what you like.

troll's picture
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Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:
Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote: A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.
I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 

I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;
http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp
The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.
When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   
First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:
"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"
That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.
All I did was go to LPL's website. quote it and provide the link. If it's dated or incomplete, it's LPL's fault. Notice there's no mention of exchange funds, individual hedge funds, SMAs, just as I said.
 
In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).
Again, you asked about YOUR SAM and I went to YOUR SAM's website. You asked what was  available at a wirehouse that wasn't at SAM, and I gave you the details.
 
I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.
There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.
And where are they all on your SAM?
I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move. 
That's fine, but the fact that you don't use them doesn't change the fact that you asked what wirehouse guys have that your SAM doesn't.
 They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population. 
I don't deal with the general population, and again, you asked.
 
 At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.
It's as up to date as your website. The next time you claim to have everything on your SAM that wirehouse guys have, you might want to consider what you're going to get as an accurate answer.
...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.
Well,  you're free to be as confused as you like about why people more experienced than you, with bigger books (which they put together with the entrepreneurial spirit you think they lack) and bigger production look at what they pay to be at a wirehouse and find the deal worthwhile. In fact, they probably prefer that you underestimate them.
Indyone wrote:
I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.
It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent. 
Like I said, if you want to believe you can't lose accounts to guys at wirehouses, feel free. I can assure you they have their arguments about the lack of due diligence, supervision, reliablity and succession planning down pat for prospects they meet that have their accounts at a RIA down the street.
 That street runs two ways....
 

Indyone's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:
Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote: A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.
I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 

I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;
http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp
The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.
When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   
First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:
"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"
That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.
All I did was go to LPL's website. quote it and provide the link. If it's dated or incomplete, it's LPL's fault. Notice there's no mention of exchange funds, individual hedge funds, SMAs, just as I said.
 
In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).
Again, you asked about YOUR SAM and I went to YOUR SAM's website. You asked what was  available at a wirehouse that wasn't at SAM, and I gave you the details.
No, that's NOT what I said...what I said was "Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent." Frankly, your reading comprehension sucks.
I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.
There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.
And where are they all on your SAM?  Again, you mental midget, there is more to my platform than SAM.  SAM just happens to be what I use most often.
I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move. 
That's fine, but the fact that you don't use them doesn't change the fact that you asked what wirehouse guys have that your SAM doesn't.   Again, that's not what I asked, no matter how many times you repeat it.  I asked what you have at MS that I don't as an independent, and you gave me virtually NOTHING that I don't have access to.
 They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population. 
I don't deal with the general population, and again, you asked.  Nice...could you sound a bit more condescending?  It's interesting...MS guys in this area sure do...they're just not very successful at taking them away from me.
 
 At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.
It's as up to date as your website. The next time you claim to have everything on your SAM that wirehouse guys have, you might want to consider what you're going to get as an accurate answer.  You know, if you'd read the question carefully, you could have avoided this whole diatribe.  Again, tell us what you can get at Morgan Stanley that I can't get as an INDEPENDENT!
...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.
Well,  you're free to be as confused as you like about why people more experienced than you, with bigger books (which they put together with the entrepreneurial spirit you think they lack) and bigger production look at what they pay to be at a wirehouse and find the deal worthwhile. In fact, they probably prefer that you underestimate them.
It doesn't matter if I underestimate or overestimate them.  My client relationships are such that they're simply not going to take any of my accounts that I don't want to lose.  I don't think I'm the least bit confused about why most folks stay in a wirehouse setting.
Indyone wrote:
I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.
It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent. 
Like I said, if you want to believe you can't lose accounts to guys at wirehouses, feel free. I can assure you they have their arguments about the lack of due diligence, supervision, reliablity and succession planning down pat for prospects they meet that have their accounts at a RIA down the street.
You're assuming a lot about my business that you know nothing about.  I went head to head with a Morgan Stanley team last year for a seven figure account, and they were as smug and condescending as you are.  I signed the account up and the guy told me that the MS guys were "all smoke and mirrors".  Sounds like your boys did a bang-up job.
 That street runs two ways....
It may in the big city, but there are a lot of one-way streets in my town.
I'm done on this one.  It's just gotten too long and time consuming for me.  Feel free to respond and continue to argue your superiority.  I'll respect your opinions for the most part, but when you start sneering down your nose at us poor little indys, don't be surprised if I decide to defend myself.

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Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:
Indyone wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote: A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.
I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 

I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;
http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp
The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.
When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   
First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:
"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"
That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.
All I did was go to LPL's website. quote it and provide the link. If it's dated or incomplete, it's LPL's fault. Notice there's no mention of exchange funds, individual hedge funds, SMAs, just as I said.
 
In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).
Again, you asked about YOUR SAM and I went to YOUR SAM's website. You asked what was  available at a wirehouse that wasn't at SAM, and I gave you the details.
No, that's NOT what I said...what I said was "Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent." Frankly, your reading comprehension sucks.
Itwas you that brougt up your SAM system, not me, remember?
I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.
There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.
And where are they all on your SAM?  Again, you mental midget, there is more to my platform than SAM.  SAM just happens to be what I use most often.
Now that the shortcomings of SAM are pointed to you, you now mention "another system" and you get testy about it.....
I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move. 
That's fine, but the fact that you don't use them doesn't change the fact that you asked what wirehouse guys have that your SAM doesn't.   Again, that's not what I asked, no matter how many times you repeat it.  I asked what you have at MS that I don't as an independent, and you gave me virtually NOTHING that I don't have access to.
Who was it that brought up SAM? Now that same is shown to be lacking, you have "other sources". Fine....
 They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population. 
I don't deal with the general population, and again, you asked.  Nice...could you sound a bit more condescending?  It's interesting...MS guys in this area sure do...they're just not very successful at taking them away from me.
Sounds like a nerve has been hit....btw, seems to me you started with the condescending tone... I simply wanted to open your eyes...
 At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.
It's as up to date as your website. The next time you claim to have everything on your SAM that wirehouse guys have, you might want to consider what you're going to get as an accurate answer.  You know, if you'd read the question carefully, you could have avoided this whole diatribe.  Again, tell us what you can get at Morgan Stanley that I can't get as an INDEPENDENT!
Yeah, once again, you mentioned SAM, complained when I quoted the website and now you have another system. BTW, where are those financial planning tools and the debt relationed information?
 
...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.
Well,  you're free to be as confused as you like about why people more experienced than you, with bigger books (which they put together with the entrepreneurial spirit you think they lack) and bigger production look at what they pay to be at a wirehouse and find the deal worthwhile. In fact, they probably prefer that you underestimate them.
It doesn't matter if I underestimate or overestimate them.  My client relationships are such that they're simply not going to take any of my accounts that I don't want to lose.  I don't think I'm the least bit confused about why most folks stay in a wirehouse setting.
Clearly you are confused, and very defensive at the same time. Interesting....
Indyone wrote:
I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.
It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent. 
Like I said, if you want to believe you can't lose accounts to guys at wirehouses, feel free. I can assure you they have their arguments about the lack of due diligence, supervision, reliablity and succession planning down pat for prospects they meet that have their accounts at a RIA down the street.
You're assuming a lot about my business that you know nothing about.  I went head to head with a Morgan Stanley team last year for a seven figure account, and they were as smug and condescending as you are.  I signed the account up and the guy told me that the MS guys were "all smoke and mirrors".  Sounds like your boys did a bang-up job.
Yawn... you opened this up with a condescending attitutde, got your closk cleaned about what your SAM can do, then told us you have another, unnamed system that can provide everything you never even mentioned before. Funny how that worked out.
I never meant to hurt your little feelings, simply to awaken you from your delusion about the "eating from thm menu" fantasy you agreed to in an earlier post. People should work in the channel that suits them and I respect whatever decision they make, until they spout nonsense like you did about the other channels.
Get yourself some counselling, there's no reason someone should have to live feeling so inferior. I wish you all the best.
 That street runs two ways....
It may in the big city, but there are a lot of one-way streets in my town.
I suspect you're stuck on one.
I'm done on this one.  It's just gotten too long and time consuming for me.  Feel free to respond and continue to argue your superiority.  I'll respect your opinions for the most part, but when you start sneering down your nose at us poor little indys, don't be surprised if I decide to defend myself.
LOL, pretty funny attitude given that this thread took off with you yapping about how  "limited" wirehouse guys were with what they have to work with and how they stay where they are because they just lack the courage and "spirit" you have.

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Mike, I said I wouldn't respond, but being that it's still Sunday night and you apparently can't let it go, I'll give it one more shot.  You evoke such responses with your arrogant, superior attitude.  It is obvious that you feel superior to the rest of us folks due to your superior intellect (which I would debate...us country bumpkins aren't as stupid as you think) and your platform at Morgan Stanley.  I've met your type and yes, it my smaller, rural market, I win much more than I lose to reps like you.  Your business model probably works better in large metro areas like the one you work in, but people (and yes, people with a lot of money) around here don't relate well to "city slickers" with an inflated vocabulary and sense of self-worth, pretty little foreign cars and sophisticated, but hard to understand investment strategies.
Yes, I mentioned the LPL SAM platform.  Nowhere did I indicate that it was the only platform I had available through LPL...that was your bad assumption.  I said "Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent (that's INPEPENDENT, NOT solely the SAM platform).  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom."  I never said that SAM was all I used...only that I could get your B/D's funds through the SAM platform.
You were into this thread before I was (even though I'm an independent and you aren't) and I think YOU started the condescending tone with "To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them."  It's sh*t like that that pisses this independent off.  I don't buy that sh*t at all, and I think with the exception of a couple of very minor issues, which don't really impact any of my clients (my hedge funds are fund of funds, and I don't do commercial lending, only mortgages), you didn't list a damn thing that I can't get, so get over your corner grocery vs. supermarket fantasy.  Sounds like you're overdosing on mother Morgan's Kool-Aid.
Never once did I "yap about how  "limited" wirehouse guys were with what they have to work with and how they stay where they are because they just lack the courage and "spirit" I have." You are manufacturing positions that I have not articulated.  I do think that SOME stay in the wirehouse because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.  Another example (among others) I used for staying was lack of desire to deal with admin tasks relating to running your own business.  I have no clue where you manufactured the position that I believe wirehouse guys are "limited".  I just don't believe that your platform is far superior as you seem to believe it is.
As far as "getting your closk cleaned", I'll leave that to other forum members to determine.  I'm not buying it at all.  I'm sure the Morgan boys thought they cleaned my closk last year after their presentation...interesting...the TWO of them lost the account to little ole me.  You didn't hurt my feelings...you pissed me off by insinuating that your platform was far superior to indy platforms.  I've stayed out of most of your fights and let you blow.  Heck, I was supportive of you when you were outed, and other than your firm, I've maintained your anonymity.  I even feel like you're entitled to your opinion, but don't even start with that corner grocery sh*t.  If you weren't so drunk on Kool-Aid, you wouldn't believe it either.
Don't take my lack of response to you on this subject as an acknowledgement of getting my closk cleaned.  I'm simply tired of your bluster and ready to move on to more constructive topics.  At the same time, don't think for a minute that I won't defend myself if you continue to misquote me or assert your imagined superiority.
When you have some experience as an independent, please feel free to tell us about how independent platforms work.  You could have avoided all of this if you hadn't been so intent on hijacking a thread that was asking INPEDENDENTS a question.

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Mike, I said I wouldn't respond, but being that it's still Sunday night and you apparently can't let it go, ..."
Let's see... you said you wouldn't respond, but you did... now who "can't let it go"?
You evoke such responses with your arrogant, superior attitude.
Once again, my ultra-defensive friend, it was you who started this conversation by agreeing to the laughable "eating from the menu" post. And who was it who said the wirehouse guys stay where they are because they lack the spirit and courage you have?
It is obvious that you feel superior to the rest of us folks...
Yawn... see above about how this thread began. You really should speak to someone about that inferiority thing...
I've met your type and yes, it my smaller, rural market, I win much more than I lose to reps like you.
Of course you do.....
Yes, I mentioned the LPL SAM platform. Nowhere did I indicate that it was the only platform I had available through LPL..
Still smarting about that one? Well, you mentioned SAM, I quoted their website (you claimed I lied when I quoted them directly AND provided a link) and now, after the error of your ways has been pointed out to you, you claim you have "another" yet unnamed system.
Right, sure you do...
... and I think YOU started the condescending tone with "To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to.
Yeah, that's the ticket... someone made a foolish and obviously condescending analogy about "limitations" at wirehouses, I correct the error, and I started it.
There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them." It's sh*t like that that pisses this independent off.
Then be pissed off, that doesn't give you license to just make things up.
I don't buy that sh*t at all, and I think with the exception of a couple of very minor issues, which don't really impact any of my clients (my hedge funds are fund of funds, and I don't do commercial lending, only mortgages), you didn't list a damn thing that I can't get, so get over your corner grocery vs. supermarket fantasy.
Sounds like the fact that you're limited makes you hyper-sensitive.
Never once did I "yap about how "limited" wirehouse guys were with what they have to work with and how they stay where they are because they just lack the courage and "spirit" I have."
The "supermarket analogy was about wirehouse guys being limited in product and services. As to your secons claim, that you "never", is this you talking? "...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit."
Now, what was it again you never said again?
You are manufacturing positions that I have not articulated.
I quoted you.
I do think that SOME stay in the wirehouse because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.
Oh, "some" makes the difference. Isn’t a sham those poor guys can’t measure up to you?
 
I have no clue where you manufactured the position that I believe wirehouse guys are "limited".
I suggest you read the supermarket analogy that you chimed in to agree with, again.
As far as "getting your closk cleaned", I'll leave that to other forum members to determine.
I would suggest you do just that.
Don't take my lack of response to you on this subject as an acknowledgement of getting my closk cleaned.
The fact that you felt the need to comment again is pretty good proof....
I'm simply tired of your bluster and ready to move on to more constructive topics.
ROFLMAO, yeah, that's what it is.
At the same time, don't think for a minute that I won't defend myself if you continue to misquote me or assert your imagined superiority.
And the supermarket analogy wasn't intended as a slight to wirehouse guys and a tail of the superiority of indies?
When you have some experience as an independent, please feel free to tell us about how independent platforms work.
Ahem... if you recall, the conversation I entered was one where an indy who have never worked at a wirehouse compared the two platforms. Givenn the research I’ve done I’m more qualified than you (and the original writer, for that matter) on the differences in the two.
You could have avoided all of this if you hadn't been so intent on hijacking a thread that was asking INPEDENDENTS a question.
I can see how you're so easily confused. I suggest you read again the comment YOU agreed to and the comment that caused me to enter the thread. It was about wirehouses. In case it’s slipped your memory, here it is again;
At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.
There’s just nothing about that reference to warehouses that’s true.

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Without getting in the middle of this, I am wondering if either of your firms have a platform where I can hold SMA's and MF's in the same account?  Or is there a way to hold different SMA's (not multi-discipline portfolios) all in one account?
Thanks for your help.

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RepResource wrote:
Without getting in the middle of this,

Don't sweat it, it's done. It's a shame too because it could have been a dicussion of the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms, but it's become a insecurity thing...
BTW, my apologies in advance if you weren't asking about a wirehouse platform.
RepResource wrote:
I am wondering if either of your firms have a platform where I can hold SMA's and MF's in the same account? 

MS does have an account where you can combine SMAs with a (currently) limited menu of MFs. If you want to hold different MFs you'd be better off with a flat fee (or advisory, which is next to happen) account.
RepResource wrote:
Or is there a way to hold different SMA's (not multi-discipline portfolios) all in one account?

Again, MS has a account where you can hold up to 6 different SMAs in the same account number (same type as mentioned above). I'm curious why you say not an MDA, since we call the account I'm talking about (Personal Portfolio) an MDA. What's the dif?

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RR, sorry this got lost in the shuffle...
"In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom)."
Yes, Integrated Advisory Services allows multiple disciplines of both SMA's and mutual funds.

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Mike-I haven't the thread from end to end but I've yet to see where you 'cleaned Indy's clock'.  I'll let you know if I notice that.Frequently I agree with your positions and will support you when I do.  This is not one of those times.I did extensive 'research' just like you did.  I also ended up pulling the trigger and going indy after 14 years of living in the wirehouse world.  I've yet to find a product or service that I was 'missing'.  In fact, I found a few that I couldn't easily get before because wirehouse compliance folks are so fearful and controlling they won't let them into the system.This in addition to having complete freedom to work when I want and brand my business as I wish.  Oh and yah the payout doesn't suck either.  I also get paid the full commish when I put money in a VA. Have you 'researched' that issue yet?There's a big difference between doing 'research' and living the life, bro.  You've overstepped your bounds on this one.Oh-and you've yet to name a single or product you can get that I can't.....or at least anything that I actually care about.

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Well, Mikey, you just make it too irresistable to respond, so here I go again...just understand that I get busy during the day, so I may not always have a chance to respond to you in a timely fashion.  Apparently, you have all the time in the world to respond as is indicated by your 957 (and counting) posts since September 13th.  I'll try to cram in a couple of quick responses while I'm taking a break for lunch...the rest will just have to wait for now.
You've somehow come to the conclusion that I'm insecure about something, but you know what they say about the accuser.  While it's possible to have doubts about some things in life, you can put your concerns about my business to rest.  I am not the least bit insecure about my talents or my platform, as both are working just fine for me.  I'm not bleeding any accounts...not one...since I went independent last summer.  From what I understand from someone closer to the situation at my ex-employer, exactly one account worth approximately $80,000 left the bank since last summer and did not move over to me (they didn't go to Morgan Stanley either).  During my 5+ years at my former employer, I lost 3-4 clients, and only one that I cared about, which went to his business partner's son-in-law.  So you see, I don't have a history of losing and I'm not insecure about that changing.  I take good care of my client base, and they are very loyal, so I'm not insecure about that.  If I do happen to lose a client here or there, I won't dwell on it, as there is always plenty in the pipeline to keep me fed.  I will simply try to determine what caused the loss, learn from it and move forward.  You are mistaking my distaste for your personality type as "insecurity" and from what I can see with the changes at your employer, you have more to be insecure about that I, so put the insecurity argument to rest.
As far as the "restaurant vs. grocery store" analogy goes, I don't read it at all the way you do.  You made immediate assumptions and took it as a slight.  I read it again, and I still see it as instead indicating a difference in style.  As an indy, you must do many more things for yourself, whereas, at a wirehouse, someone in the back office (kitchen) has done a lot of the legwork fo you.  Sure, the grocery store may have a deli, but in general, an indy usually has more work (but less cost) involved to get food on the table.  Where you got the idea that I was insinuating that wirehouse reps are limited is beyond me...methinks you are a bit defensive, as I have plenty of respect for many of the producers I know on the wireside...I just don't have any for your type.
As far as why people stay in the wirehouse, I'll think what I think and you can think what you think.  Some, many, more than a few...it's all semantics.  You take a poll of one and profess to speak for the masses.  All I said is what I think and I am entitled to that opinion.  I'd trust is a lot more than I would yours.  As far as whether or not you're more qualified than I or others to answer questions about the differences between wirehouse and independent platforms is your opinion.  You have no idea how much or how little due diligence I've done on wirehouses and for you to just assume superior knowledge is again, showing your typical arrogance.
...and finally, pray tell what facts am I making up?  I think you're mistaking my opinions for fact because you are used to portraying your opinions as such.  Again, your arrogance betrays you.
A word to the wise, repeating something false again and again won't make it true, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself.  Keep it coming...although you might try to get a little work in between posts this afternoon...I'll be busy for the next few hours taking care of my clients.

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joedabrkr wrote:<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Mike-I haven't the thread from end to end but I've yet to see where you 'cleaned Indy's clock'.  I'll let you know if I notice that.

You might want to review the exchange RE: SAM and what it can/can’t do. Then again, coming from your perspective, a newly coined indy, I can understand your POV.
joedabrkr wrote:
I did extensive 'research' just like you did.  I also ended up pulling the trigger and going indy after 14 years of living in the wirehouse world.  I've yet to find a product or service that I was 'missing'. 

Who puts together your collars, writes your advanced estate planning, provides one-off structured products, gets you access to thousands of SMA well below the $100K  minimums, gets you access to equity syndicate, exchange funds, pure hedge fund plays, corporate and individual financing options, just to name a few items?
It’s one thing to say you don’t use them in your practice; it’s another to say you have them as you would at a wirehouse.
joedabrkr wrote:
In fact, I found a few that I couldn't easily get before because wirehouse compliance folks are so fearful and controlling they won't let them into the system.

Like what, Joe?
joedabrkr wrote:
This in addition to having complete freedom to work when I want and brand my business as I wish. 

Like I said in the original post, there are plenty of compelling reasons to go indy. You’ve just named a couple. The original post, otoh, named one that was fictional.
joedabrkr wrote:
 
Oh and yah the payout doesn't suck either.  I also get paid the full commish when I put money in a VA. Have you 'researched' that issue yet?

Yep. Wireshouses (at least the one’s I’m familiar with) cut commission rates on VA products so that every VA pays out at the same rate. Otherwise you’d get oaid more to sell this VA than that. It wouldn’t bother me to keep that dough, otoh, I do see the point in leveling the playing field in a product array.
 
joedabrkr wrote:
There's a big difference between doing 'research' and living the life, bro.  You've overstepped your bounds on this one.

You seem to have forgotten that I WAS with an Indy firm. Not only worked with one, had Series 24 responsibility over other brokers there. I’ve lived the life, bro.
joedabrkr wrote:
Oh-and you've yet to name a single or product you can get that I can't.....or at least anything that I actually care about.
That last caveat is the one people always fall back one. It’s fine to say you don’t want what you don’t have, it’s another to say, as the post that started this conversation did, that you have a wider array of products and services than a wirehouse. It was that analogy that caused me to respond.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Indyone wrote: <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Well, Mikey, you just make it too irresistable to respond,
Why blame me if you feel pressure? Is nothing your fault or under your control?
 Apparently, you have all the time in the world to respond as is indicated by your 957 (and counting) posts since September 13th<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /> . 
Obviously I make better use of my time, and just as obviously you feel the need to control….  Perhaps you need some admin assistance….or time management skills, or both.
You've somehow come to the conclusion that I'm insecure about something,
You were the one with the chip on the shoulder from the get-go. It was you that agreed to a laughable analogy, felt the need to denigrate the reasons people might chose to stay at a wirehouse, chuckle at the idea that you have competition…seems to me for all your complaining about a condescending tone, that’s what you adopted from jump street.
I’ll remind you, again, I didn’t have anything to say to you until you jumped, both feet, into agreeing to that foolish “supermarket” analogy.
I'm not bleeding any accounts...not one...since I went independent last summer. 
Wait a sec, after all this you’ve been Indy just under a year? Could I ask where you were before that?
  If I do happen to lose a client here or there, I won't dwell on it, as there is always plenty in the pipeline to keep me fed. 
Nobody had anything to say about your ability to hold onto accounts until you made this snarky comment; I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley. Now, until then there hadn’t been a comment made about losing accounts to anyone, but since you opened that door, taking accounts from a one-man Indy is as easy as taking accounts gets.
You are mistaking my distaste for your personality type as "insecurity" and from what I can see with the changes at your employer, you have more to be insecure about that I, so put the insecurity argument to rest.
Ahhh, so witty. Here’s a clue, pal, it ain’t insecurity that allows you to pull up stakes and move wherever you want, whenever you want. Quite the contrary.
Now, tough guy, I’ll make the same offer to you I’ve made to every other pissant that wanted to make an issue of my loss of anonymity by inviting you to post YOUR U-4. If you lack the moral courage to do that, you haven’t the courage to proceed down that path. I’ve got little time for losers who think “hey, you’ve changed jobs” is some sort of trump card when their debating skills left them in a deficit position.
OTOH, you insecurity evidenced itself with your first, snarky post directed at me.
As far as the "restaurant vs. grocery store" analogy goes, I don't read it at all the way you do.  You made immediate assumptions and took it as a slight. 
There’s no other way to take it. It isn’t about “style” it’s about someone who’s never even worked at a wirehouse assuming people are “given” things from a limited menu. The original writer when on to say that’s EXACTLY what she intended to say. BTW, I suggest you hire an admin assistant if you think there’s “more work”.
As far as why people stay in the wirehouse, I'll think what I think and you can think what you think.
Right, and there’s no self-aggrandizement in your view of your own “spirit” and no condescension directed at others who made a different choice. Nah, none at all….
Like I said in the very first post on this subject, a comment you specifically took exception to “There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example [grocery store example] isn’t one of them.”. Did it need to said clearer that I don’t have a problem with people making specific decisions about what channel’s right for them? Was there ANYTHING even remotely condescending in that post? In fact, I’ll go a step further, I think it was damned polite.
 All I said is what I think and I am entitled to that opinion. 
As I recall I said I thought you had every right to be in error. You even have every right to be a condescending ass in the very same post where you imagine it in others. It’s might be tough for you to imagine, but there are people with more experience than you, more production than you and more assets than you who think they’re in the best possible place for them to be in a wirehouse. They see a large product and service array, subject matter experts on call in every area, technology, a recognizable brand name, admin support, class A office space and they know what it would cost to replace it at the same level.
I have no problem saying people can take the very same decision process and end up in an indy office. It's all about what sort of business they do, who they do it with, where they want to do it. Better yet, I don’t make aspersions to their “spirit” or courage or abilities because they’ve chosen another channel. And after that you continue to whine about arrogance and condescension. It’s actually pretty funny.
You have no idea how much or how little due diligence I've done on wirehouses…
It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about and that you’ve never worked at one.
A word to the wise, repeating something false again and again won't make it true, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself. 
Hmmm. Like when you claimed I wasn’t being honest when I quoted directly AND provided a link to the LPL website? That the sort of thing you’re talking about?
 
 
 
 
 

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Actually Mike, if I could make a quick correction: You didn't quote off of LPL's website.  You quoted off of an Advisors website, who was describing an LPL platform.

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A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.
I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
That last caveat is the one people always fall back on.....It's another to say as the post that started this conversation did, that you have a wider array of products and services than a wirehouse.
Mike - Where, which part, what sentance did I say that working as an independent that I have a wider variety of products/services?
It's an analogy about eating your own cooking vs going out to eat. It's about saving money by cooking at home (independent).
It's about the level of service & support you get from your back office (or in this case waiters/waitresses) because when you go out to eat (working at wirehouse) that IS what you are paying for.
Working at Jones, my rep was an employee of the firm and she was paid a portion of the commission she earned as payment for her services...right? Well now, as an independent SHE pays a back office for the services she requires of them (she buys only the groceries she needs and cooks for herself).
Lastly, I wasn't attempting to compell anyone to go independent. I was trying to demonstrate the differences between GOING OUT TO EAT & PAYING FOR IT.....vs GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE AND COOKING AT HOME.
 
 

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Also the part of your analogy that the "guys" didn't pick up on is: that at the restaurant, you are only allowed to chose what to eat from the offerings on the menu.  The menu is chosen by someone else.  It might be fine food but you are limited in your selection . When you go to the grocery store (in your analogy) you pick your own ingredients, the menu is decided by you and not any one else.  You also need to know how to cook too    Something that you don't need to know at a restaurant
Some people like to have everything chosen for them, others like to be responsible for making their own decisions. 

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Thank you! I have yet to walk into a restaurant and told the chef what he is going to cook for me! (though it might be kind of good for some laughs sometime)

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  Aw shucks.   Thanks

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I believe that I have the ability to use a third party to set up collars if I can't get what I want with the public markets, and the same with one-off structured products.  This assuming I was foolish enough to use either of them.  I think they are both overrated.I could get access to equity syndicate if I wanted.  I don't use it because there is a built-in conflict of interest between my clients and the interest of the bankers to sell the offering for as high a valuation as possible.  Closed end funds at the offering are just as bad, too, IMHO.I can get access to at least one exchange fund that I know off the top of my head.  I wouldn't be surprised if there are more.I write my own financial plans and I set the fee myself.  If the work is more than I can handle on my own, I can go to other advisors' with the firm and share the work, or hire an outside expert of my choosing.Corporate financing and personal non-purpose loans.  Can't really get access to that.  I'll let the investment bankers have that for the corporate stuff.  As far as the personal stuff, I think there's a massive contradiction in telling people you're going to help them 'build wealth' and then you loan them money.  Yeah you can cloak it in all sorts of fancy lingo about "managing both sides of the client's balance sheet", but ultimately you're helping them take on debt.  I can get my clients mortgages if I choose to participate in the program. Personally I don't think I have any business trying to loan them money for any other purpose.  One day clients will see that for what it is, just another way to try to lock them down to the institution, and it'll come back and bite MS, UBS, etc.Yes I forgot you sorta had some 'indy' experience.  If I recall it didn't go too well, in no small part because of a really bad partner.  Any chance that colored your perspective on the whole debate?Things I couldn't get that I now have access to?  Lease participation deals.  Non-traded REITS.  Equity Index Annuities(not that I like them), Highmark Asset Allocation Funds, Tax Credit deals.  The list goes on.  Motivated back-office staff.  Top quality technology with FREQUENT updates based upon advisor support.Hey look, I'm happy with the path I've chosen, as apparently are you.  The 'big lie' that the wires want you to believe is that my path is a lesser path.  You go ahead and keep believing that, and I'll keep buildling equity in MY business.Cheers,Joe

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Mikey sez, "Why blame me if you feel pressure? Is nothing your fault or under your control?"  I have plenty of self-control...I'm just not going to sit quietly while you distort the truth and look down your nose at Indies.
Mikey sez, "Obviously I make better use of my time, and just as obviously you feel the need to control….  Perhaps you need some admin assistance….or time management skills, or both."  With the numbers you're posting on here, I think that it's laughable that you brag about your time management skills.  I have an admin assistant that I brought with me and she's very good, thank you.  My time management skills aren't bad, but they could always be better (this sure has been a waste of time).<?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />
Mikey sez, "You were the one with the chip on the shoulder from the get-go. It was you that agreed to a laughable analogy, felt the need to denigrate the reasons people might chose to stay at a wirehouse, chuckle at the idea that you have competition…seems to me for all your complaining about a condescending tone, that’s what you adopted from jump street.
I’ll remind you, again, I didn’t have anything to say to you until you jumped, both feet, into agreeing to that foolish “supermarket” analogy."
WAAAAAAAHHH!!! HE STARTED IT!!!  No, Mikey, I didn't get the chip on my shoulder until you made the following crack (see the BOLD part in particular):
Mikey sez "I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them."
<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />If you'll go back to the beginning of this thread, I think your jump to a faulty conclusion on Devoted's analogy, and subsequent smart-ass retort was what started this pissing match.  I didn't much care for the "corner grocery" analogy that you were so quick to spout.
Mikey sez "Wait a sec, after all this you’ve been Indy just under a year? Could I ask where you were before that?"  See below, wise guy.
Mikey sez "Now, tough guy, I’ll make the same offer to you I’ve made to every other pissant that wanted to make an issue of my loss of anonymity by inviting you to post YOUR U-4. If you lack the moral courage to do that, you haven’t the courage to proceed down that path. I’ve got little time for losers who think “hey, you’ve changed jobs” is some sort of trump card when their debating skills left them in a deficit position.  OK, ass-wipe, I'm not making an issue of your loss of anonymity here.  I've repeated no more about you (your B/D is Morgan Stanley), than I've said about myself (mine is LPL).  Just because you were careless and got outed by some nameless cretin doesn't mean I'm giving up my anonymity.  I'll give you my work history in round numbers so you'll think twice about assuming I'm just another snot-nosed wannabe who can't run with you.  I graduated college in the 80's, spent two years in public accounting, ten years working for one regional bank, mostly in the trust department as an investment manager and as CFO, 5+ years at another bank as an advisor, and the balance of my career (last summer to present) as an indy advisor with 24 jurisdiction over two offices.  In my spare time, I got my CPA and CFP.  Oh, and I would question as to whether or not my debating skills have left me in a deficit position...you're hardly the captain of the debate team here.
Mikey sez "OTOH, you insecurity evidenced itself with your first, snarky post directed at me."  yep, right after your nice little "corner market" analogy.  You shouldn't start sh*t if you don't want any in response.
MIkey sez "Nobody had anything to say about your ability to hold onto accounts until you made this snarky comment; I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley. Now, until then there hadn’t been a comment made about losing accounts to anyone, but since you opened that door, taking accounts from a one-man Indy is as easy as taking accounts gets."  I think you know why I gave you the business...do we have to re-hash that corner grocery thing again?!!  ...and yes, it's been sooooooo easy for your boys to take accounts from me...I'm just trembling with fear at the thought of it!
Mikey sez "Like I said in the very first post on this subject, a comment you specifically took exception to “There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example [grocery store example] isn’t one of them.”. Did it need to said clearer that I don’t have a problem with people making specific decisions about what channel’s right for them? Was there ANYTHING even remotely condescending in that post? In fact, I’ll go a step further, I think it was damned polite."  Apparently, you are having selective amnesia about the whole "corner grocery vs. the huge supermarket" thing...gee...that's not condescending, is it?!!
Mikey sez "It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about and that you’ve never worked at one."  I think I do know a thing or two about wirehouses, although you did score ONE point here...I have never worked at a wirehouse, and given my current situation, I would say that it is highly unlikely that I will ever work at a wirehouse.  That said, I don't generally make fun of those who do until they start popping off about corner markets and supermarkets.
Indy sez "A word to the wise, repeating something false again and again won't make it true, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself."
Mikey sez "Hmmm. Like when you claimed I wasn’t being honest when I quoted directly AND provided a link to the LPL website? That the sort of thing you’re talking about?"  Ummm, yep...
Freedomlvr: "Actually Mike, if I could make a quick correction: You didn't quote off of LPL's website.  You quoted off of an Advisors website, who was describing an LPL platform."
I think he just cleaned your "closk".

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FreedomLvr wrote:Actually Mike, if I could make a quick correction: You didn't quote off of LPL's website.  You quoted off of an Advisors website, who was describing an LPL platform.
 
You make a very good point. My error, thanks for pointing it out.

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babbling looney wrote:
Also the part of your analogy that the "guys" didn't pick up on is: that at the restaurant, you are only allowed to chose what to eat from the offerings on the menu.  The menu is chosen by someone else.  It might be fine food but you are limited in your selection . When you go to the grocery store (in your analogy) you pick your own ingredients, the menu is decided by you and not any one else.  You also need to know how to cook too    Something that you don't need to know at a restaurant
 

Actually BL, that's exactly what I read, and it sure as hell sounded condescending to me, as did DevotedSA Aren't-you-guys-forced-to-sell-wink-wink-no-nod, which was equally insulting.
Then fact is I feel like not only am I at the supermarket, and then cooking my own meals, but I have a larger selection. That's the only point I was trying to make and I' sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings in the process.

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joedabrkr wrote:  As far as the personal stuff, I think there's a massive contradiction in telling people you're going to help them 'build wealth' and then you loan them money. 

I just have to disagree with you on this Joe. Rarely is it in the best interest of a household (or business) to be completely debt-free, therefore both sides of the balance sheet count.
joedabrkr wrote:Yes I forgot you sorta had some 'indy' experience.  If I recall it didn't go too well, in no small part because of a really bad partner.  Any chance that colored your perspective on the whole debate?

Well, if I were anti-independent, that would be a fair place to start, but since I'm not, no. If I'm "anti" anything, I'm "anti" listening to people who've never worked at a wirehouse talk about how the other side has things prepared for them or that they have to sell from a "menu" or that people who decide to stay at wirehouses do so based on "fear" of some sort.
joedabrkr wrote:Things I couldn't get that I now have access to?  Lease participation deals.  Non-traded REITS.  Equity Index Annuities(not that I like them), Highmark Asset Allocation Funds, Tax Credit deals.  The list goes on.  Motivated back-office staff.  Top quality technology with FREQUENT updates based upon advisor support.

That sounds like UBS was pretty limited. Most everything on your list, aside from index-linked annuities, we have.
joedabrkr wrote:Hey look, I'm happy with the path I've chosen, as apparently are you.  The 'big lie' that the wires want you to believe is that my path is a lesser path.  You go ahead and keep believing that, and I'll keep buildling equity in MY business.
Joe, I hope you don't think I feel your path is lesser. I have expressed great respect for you and for BL in the past. While I don't look down on your path, I don't have much time for people who look down on mine, especially if they base it on bogus criteria. People should be free to do they type of business they want with the type of people they want to work with, where they want to work with them. I've never said any different.
As for me, I've seen the various channels, and for what I want to do, with the people I want to work with and the place I want to work with them, I'm thrilled where I am. IF/when there's a platform that allows me to do that elsewhere, I'll consider it. In the mean time  it isn't any sort of "fear" that keeps me where I am.

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Indyone wrote:
 I have plenty of self-control...I'm just not going to sit quietly while you distort the truth and look down your nose at Indies.

 
Since I never did anything of the sort, it's foolish to continue this. The original post, the one you jumped ugly about, was anything but condescending and it clearly didn't distort the truth. It even included the line “there are many reasons to consider going indy…“. Hardly the sort of thing you’d say if you wanted to twist the knife.
The only distortion was the one I wanted to clean up that suggested that there's a limited "menu" wirehouse guys work with and that they "don't cook" and later that they‘re pressured to sell proprietary solutions. That's simply not the case. As to your attitude that it's "fear" that keeps wirehouse guys in place and a lack of entrepreneurial spirit, that’s your cross to bear.

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mikebutler222 wrote:joedabrkr wrote:  As far as the personal stuff, I think there's a massive contradiction in telling people you're going to help them 'build wealth' and then you loan them money. 

I just have to disagree with you on this Joe. Rarely is it in the best interest of a household (or business) to be completely debt-free, therefore both sides of the balance sheet count.
joedabrkr wrote:Yes I forgot you sorta had some 'indy' experience.  If I recall it didn't go too well, in no small part because of a really bad partner.  Any chance that colored your perspective on the whole debate?

Well, if I were anti-independent, that would be a fair place to start, but since I'm not, no. If I'm "anti" anything, I'm "anti" listening to people who've never worked at a wirehouse talk about how the other side has things prepared for them or that they have to sell from a "menu" or that people who decide to stay at wirehouses do so based on "fear" of some sort.
joedabrkr wrote:Things I couldn't get that I now have access to?  Lease participation deals.  Non-traded REITS.  Equity Index Annuities(not that I like them), Highmark Asset Allocation Funds, Tax Credit deals.  The list goes on.  Motivated back-office staff.  Top quality technology with FREQUENT updates based upon advisor support.

That sounds like UBS was pretty limited. Most everything on your list, aside from index-linked annuities, we have.
joedabrkr wrote:Hey look, I'm happy with the path I've chosen, as apparently are you.  The 'big lie' that the wires want you to believe is that my path is a lesser path.  You go ahead and keep believing that, and I'll keep buildling equity in MY business.
Joe, I hope you don't think I feel your path is lesser. I have expressed great respect for you and for BL in the past. While I don't look down on your path, I don't have much time for people who look down on mine, especially if they base it on bogus criteria. People should be free to do they type of business they want with the type of people they want to work with, where they want to work with them. I've never said any different.
As for me, I've seen the various channels, and for what I want to do, with the people I want to work with and the place I want to work with them, I'm thrilled where I am. IF/when there's a platform that allows me to do that elsewhere, I'll consider it. In the mean time  it isn't any sort of "fear" that keeps me where I am.Mike I never said 'fear' kept you where you are.  In fact, I believe I said that if you're happy with your chosen path, good for you!As for the statement that 'it is rarely in the best interest of a household to be debt-free'.  Well Mikey, reasonable men can agree to disagree sometimes, right?

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joedabrkr wrote: Mike I never said 'fear' kept you where you are.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

No, you didn't. I was referring to the poster that made a Federal case out of what I saw as a reasonably phrased corrective post of mine. You know, the guy who’s never worked at a wirehouse but knows about “menus”.
joedabrkr wrote:
  In fact, I believe I said that if you're happy with your chosen path, good for you!

My sentiments exactly, bro.
joedabrkr wrote:As for the statement that 'it is rarely in the best interest of a household to be debt-free'.  Well Mikey, reasonable men can agree to disagree sometimes, right?
Fair enough 
 

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I have to ask, Mike...and I'm NOT being condescending. When is it not in the best interests of a household to be debt free? Just wondering, always like to hear different point of view.

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Devoted SA wrote:I have to ask, Mike...and I'm NOT being condescending. When is it not in the best interests of a household to be debt free? Just wondering, always like to hear different point of view.
When the opportunity cost of paying off a, say 5% mortgage, exceeds the savings.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

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"No, you didn't. I was referring to the poster that made a Federal case out of what I saw as a reasonably phrased corrective post of mine. You know, the guy who’s never worked at a wirehouse but knows about “menus”."
I didn't single you out as being fearful to leave either.  I'll always believe that there are those that stay at the wirehouse due to fear of the unknown, including how to work around non-competes and how to run your own business from the administrative side, the fear of whether clients will follow, etc.,etc.,etc.  I didn't say you were necessarily one of them and I couldn't care less if you are or not.
...and I don't consider myself less of a person because I've never worked at a wirehouse.  I know plenty about what's available at most wirehouses, how compensation and benefits work, etc.,etc. to participate in a meaningful discussion about the differences between the road I've chosen and the one you are on.  I've also had experiences that you'll never get at the wirehouse, so get over yourself.
We're not going to agree on this or many subjects, but just keep up the personal attacks if you want to flame this up again...I wouldn't have bothered with you had you not felt the need to sling a little more crap at me in your reply to Joe.

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mikebutler222 wrote:Devoted SA wrote:I have to ask, Mike...and I'm NOT being condescending. When is it not in the best interests of a household to be debt free? Just wondering, always like to hear different point of view.
When the opportunity cost of paying off a, say 5% mortgage, exceeds the savings.Now THAT I'll agree with!  In general, too, I'm comfortable with mortgage debt on one's primary residence as being a permanent part of the overall picture.However, it seems to me that is the RARE exception that proves the rule.....especially the low rate you cite in your example.

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Indyone wrote:"No, you didn't. I was referring to the poster that made a Federal case out of what I saw as a reasonably phrased corrective post of mine. You know, the guy who’s never worked at a wirehouse but knows about “menus”."
I didn't single you out as being fearful to leave either.  I'll always believe that there are those that stay at the wirehouse due to fear of the unknown, including how to work around non-competes and how to run your own business from the administrative side, the fear of whether clients will follow, etc.,etc.,etc.  I didn't say you were necessarily one of them and I couldn't care less if you are or not.
...and I don't consider myself less of a person because I've never worked at a wirehouse.  I know plenty about what's available at most wirehouses, how compensation and benefits work, etc.,etc. to participate in a meaningful discussion about the differences between the road I've chosen and the one you are on.  I've also had experiences that you'll never get at the wirehouse, so get over yourself.
We're not going to agree on this or many subjects, but just keep up the personal attacks if you want to flame this up again...I wouldn't have bothered with you had you not felt the need to sling a little more crap at me in your reply to Joe.I hear what you're saying Indy but do we REALLY want to start this up all over again?

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joedabrkr wrote: mikebutler222 wrote:
Devoted SA wrote:I have to ask, Mike...and I'm NOT being condescending. When is it not in the best interests of a household to be debt free? Just wondering, always like to hear different point of view.
When the opportunity cost of paying off a, say 5% mortgage, exceeds the savings.
Now THAT I'll agree with!  In general, too, I'm comfortable with mortgage debt on one's primary residence as being a permanent part of the overall picture.However, it seems to me that is the RARE exception that proves the rule.....especially the low rate you cite in your example.
Well, I don't think there's anything rare about a household having a  mortgage and while rates are closer to 6 or 6.5% the same rule about opportunity costs applies. More often than that, people already have some form of debt that can better better handled than it currently is.
Consider this, how many of your clients are completely debt free? If any are, why haven't you suggested to them to sell their portfolio off to pay off all their debt, if you think completely debt-free is what they should be.

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joedabrkr wrote: Indyone wrote:
"No, you didn't. I was referring to the poster that made a Federal case out of what I saw as a reasonably phrased corrective post of mine. You know, the guy who’s never worked at a wirehouse but knows about “menus”."
I didn't single you out as being fearful to leave either.  I'll always believe that there are those that stay at the wirehouse due to fear of the unknown, including how to work around non-competes and how to run your own business from the administrative side, the fear of whether clients will follow, etc.,etc.,etc.  I didn't say you were necessarily one of them and I couldn't care less if you are or not.
...and I don't consider myself less of a person because I've never worked at a wirehouse.  I know plenty about what's available at most wirehouses, how compensation and benefits work, etc.,etc. to participate in a meaningful discussion about the differences between the road I've chosen and the one you are on.  I've also had experiences that you'll never get at the wirehouse, so get over yourself.
We're not going to agree on this or many subjects, but just keep up the personal attacks if you want to flame this up again...I wouldn't have bothered with you had you not felt the need to sling a little more crap at me in your reply to Joe.
I hear what you're saying Indy but do we REALLY want to start this up all over again?
It won't start up again, there's just no reason. He said it himself, he's never worked at a wirehouse, how he's qualified to talk about life there is a mystery.

7GOD63's picture
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Joined: 2006-01-29

Its WAR!  

troll's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-29

7GOD63 wrote:Its WAR!  
Too late, it's now peace in the valley. You may return to regular programming  ;)

skeedaddy's picture
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Joined: 2005-06-16

Everybody stop posting....let MikeB have the last word, like he likes it. OK?

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