Meanwwhile back at the NOLA bus depot

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BondGuy's picture
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On this worst market day in seven years I thought we could clear up our left/right disengage over Nagin's not using the buses to evacuate NOLA.
What really amazes me is how this issue has become so politicized. The reason, of course is,  if Nagin did his job right then the blame for the Katrina fiasco belongs elsewhere. That elsewhere being squarely on the shoulders of the Bush admin. If he screwed up then he gets to shoulder the blame.
The answer, as usual, isn't black and white. No pun intended as some have suggested that the issue is about black and white. 
NOLA did have a plan to evacuate the city. They had several plans. Some things they did right, some wrong. And some that worked could have been done better. When it comes to government there is nothing new there. How many things does your local government get exactly right? However, regardless of which political side you play for the fact is NOLA's city govrnmt evacuated 80% of the city's residents. A record not only for NOLA but for any large american city where 60% is considered a success. Nagin and his evacuation planners figured that an effective evacuation would leave about 100,000 people in the city. Fed gov't estimates after the storm put the number at 97,000. So, in Nagin's mind the evacuation had worked about as planned. And it had. Still, the Monday morning quarterbacking started immediately and was intensified by the extremely high voltage politcal nature of the issues at hand. The stakes to place blame were high.
Criticizm centered on Nagin's decision to not use the city's school bus and public transit bus fleet to evacuate the city's carless. His response to this charge seemed to change from interview to interview. The reactions of an extremely tired and stressed man put on the spot for what look like a failure? Maybe. Nagin's a first class BSer so who knows what he's really thinking. However, the point is the plan wasn't a failure. It worked and got most of the city's residents to safety. Could it have been done better, without a doubt. Hindsight is always 20-20.
The controversy though, still swirls. Centered on the unused buses. We all remember seeing the pictures of all the school buses sitting idle in the flood waters while a mile away thousands suffered in the Dome. We were appalled and shocked. The right wing then pushed into action with a campaign to discredit Nagin with those school buses. It started with a column written by Wesly Pruden, editor and chief of the Washington Times. Wesley pointed right at the 2000 unused buses and blamed Nagin. The right wing blogs picked this up. From there FOX news did it's usual hatchet job. Sean Hannity used the 2000 buses to club Nagin and vindicate Bush. Gingrich jumped on board. And we all know if it's said on FOX it must be true. Nagin's public lynching was on. It went well. People, even well educated people who should know better bought in. Nagin was the bad guy.
The problem with all this is that Pruden, in his rush to impeach Nagin, had grossly mistated the number of buses available. Estimates by evacuation experts, mostly civil engineers, put the number of buses needed for an evacuation on the scale needed by NOLA at 2000 as a minimum. The fact is NOLA had, at last count, about 600 buses available. 324 school buses, most of which were part of the televised submarine fleet, and 364 public transit buses. Of the 324 school buses owned by the city approximately 70 we inoperable. Using every bus in the city's fleet, school and transit to evacuate would have been hopeless. Not even half good enough to get the job done. Nagin, regardless of what bullsh*t answer he was giving on what day was right not to attempt to use them.
Today, these facts are well known and as I've shown, easily found. Yet, to this day the right refuses to back down on the bus issue. This probably relates to the fact that Katrina could be an 08 campaign issue.
Perhaps the lesson is don't believe everything you hear, regardless of the source.
After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.
OK, that was a nice break from a tough day in the market.
 
 
 

blarmston's picture
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My brain hurts- I am going to the beach...

pretzelhead's picture
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blarmston wrote:My brain hurts- I am going to the beach...
Lucky dawg.

troll's picture
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You have to "go" to get to the beach? Poor sap.

Oldproducer's picture
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It isn't the administrations fault. Bush said that Brownie was doing a good job. That Bush said it, is good enough for...hey, wait! What happened to Brownie??? Hmm...

Okay, on the Iraq War, Bush said that Rumsfeld was doing a good job. Well, if Bush said it, it is good enough for....hey, wait! What happened to Rumsfeld??? Hmm...

I'm sure the reason for both of them being gone rests on Nagin's shoulders. He is the one responsible...I heard in on Fox! Ha, ha, ha!

troll's picture
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BondGuy wrote:
After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.
 
Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.
Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.
It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.

BondGuy's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.
 
Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.
Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.
It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.

My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.
I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?
As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself. That's better than good, it's excellent. Show me one thing the Bush admin has done in 6 years that has been as succesful? Just one thing. And please don't come back with the lame we've not been attacked again rebuttal. Bush has no control over Al-Qaeda's time table. And as recent reports have shown, the terrorist are here. We are no safer today than we were six years ago.
Just one thing that's worked? 
Nagin's no angel and he's nobodies bargain but he wasn't the one who caused FEMA not to respond.
Now my head hurts I need to go to the beach.

BankFC's picture
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BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.
 
Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.
Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.
It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.

My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.
Funny you didn't say harder than New Orleans...because there are places along the Mississippi Gulf coast that got hit HARDER than New Orleans.  Where is all the press for them?  Could it be that it showing poor white folks trying to make it after a disaster just doesn't make for nearly as good TV as showing poor BLACK folks and making it a racial issue???
Anyone who talks about a "chocolate city" is a racist and an idiot.
I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?

Did anyone else just hear the loud thud?  It was Bondguy's credibility...it just fell over and died.
Yes Bondguy, our government hates black people, that's it.  Actually, you probably believe Spike Lee's theory, that Bush sent Frogmen down in Helicopters during the storm and BLEW the levies... 
 

troll's picture
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BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast? There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.
Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.
Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.
It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.

My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.
The Mississippi coast didn’t have a delay in seeing FEMA, NOLA did.
BondGuy wrote:I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?
Again with the incredibly foolish race card. The situation was completely different. Your place in Florida didn’t take the hit and get the flooding NOLA got. It’s like saying you had a bruise and got good treatment at the ER, but the guy behind you that had been thrown a 100 ft in a bike crash was abused by the ER staff.
You really don’t want to hear about FEMA and Hugo or Bertha.
BondGuy wrote: As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself.
Spare me (and who knows where this “80%“ number comes from). It wasn’t just that Nagin didn’t evacuate in time, or that he didn’t provide transportation, it is the fact, which you keep ignoring, that he didn’t have in place in the Superdome what he should have. No food, no water, no medical assistance, no security.
You’re making BS excuses for the disaster he (and Blanco) created there and hammering FEMA on ludicrous grounds, and all for transparent partisan considerations. Had the Superdome not been the unmitigated disaster that he’d made it, those people wouldn’t have been suffering, and FEMA’s 24 hour delay wouldn’t have been as critical. As I pointed out, FEMA didn’t get to my neighborhood for three days, but it wasn’t a CNN worthy situation because we, as a community, had plans in place to take care of ourselves until help could arrive.
 
 

BondGuy's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:
 
Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.
Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.
It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.

My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.
The Mississippi coast didn’t have a delay in seeing FEMA, NOLA did.
Wrong. FEMA delayed getting into MS as well as NOLA. More so, it's still a mess today, and that' all FEMA incompetence. Most of the casinos are back, up and running. Go just a few blocks in from the coast along the entire coast of MS and it's block after block of ruined houses. As of July 12,2007 24,000 FEMA trailers still house over 65,000 MS residents. FEMA finds one reason after another to withold resources to these cities.
BondGuy wrote:I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?
Again with the incredibly foolish race card. The situation was completely different. Your place in Florida didn’t take the hit and get the flooding NOLA got. It’s like saying you had a bruise and got good treatment at the ER, but the guy behind you that had been thrown a 100 ft in a bike crash was abused by the ER staff.
Relax, I'm not playing the race card. I offer race as a reason for lack of any credible reason why this agency would show such massive incompetence in one area, primarily black, while being an model of effeciency in another area, wealthy white. I can see why social pundants raise the question. My own believe is that the response had nothing to do with race. That said, just because I personally believe that race wasn't a factor doesn't mean it wasn't. To fully understand what happened we must be open to all possibilities. In the end with katrina, the social outcome, it may be the perception that matters more than the reality. And the perception points to race being a factor. Unfortunately.
You really don’t want to hear about FEMA and Hugo or Bertha.
BondGuy wrote: As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself.
Spare me (and who knows where this “80%“ number comes from).
The 80% number comes from NOAA. The put the number as double the expected rate.
You’re making BS excuses for the disaster he (and Blanco) created there and hammering FEMA on ludicrous grounds, and all for transparent partisan considerations. Had the Superdome not been the unmitigated disaster that he’d made it, those people wouldn’t have been suffering, and FEMA’s 24 hour delay wouldn’t have been as critical. As I pointed out, FEMA didn’t get to my neighborhood for three days, but it wasn’t a CNN worthy situation because we, as a community, had plans in place to take care of ourselves until help could arrive.
Nagin didn't create the disaster. That would be mother nature. There is some evidence linking Hurricane formation to solar flares. Still, Within the NOLA emergency disaster plan the Superdome was a refuge of last resort.
Nagin managed to pull of the the most massive evacution in U.S. history. You point the finger at him for failures only because the only other alternative is pointing it at your boy Bush.
 
 

The questionstands:
Name just one Bush success?

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BankFC wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.
 
Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.
Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.
It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.

My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.
Funny you didn't say harder than New Orleans...because there are places along the Mississippi Gulf coast that got hit HARDER than New Orleans.  Where is all the press for them?  Could it be that it showing poor white folks trying to make it after a disaster just doesn't make for nearly as good TV as showing poor BLACK folks and making it a racial issue???
Anyone who talks about a "chocolate city" is a racist and an idiot.
I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?

Did anyone else just hear the loud thud?  It was Bondguy's credibility...it just fell over and died.
Yes Bondguy, our government hates black people, that's it.  Actually, you probably believe Spike Lee's theory, that Bush sent Frogmen down in Helicopters during the storm and BLEW the levies... 
 

So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
I don't believe for a minute that race played a part in the Katrina response. Yet, I can understand the perception that it did. I believe the Katrina response was botched by  arrogant bureacrats running departments staffed with legions of christian college degree mill incompetents. Take a shot at me for that.
What's interesting is that by my just posing race as a possiblity has gotten your white boy racist short and curlys so twisted that you feel a need to take a swing at me.
That said, you might want to do a little reseach into just how well our government has treated black men. From using them as unwitting lab rats in medical experiments to the getto army of Nam, not pretty.
If you really don't like people asking questions of their leaders you are living in the wrong country.
 

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Wrong. FEMA delayed getting into MS as well as NOLA.
No, it wasn't. People in MS were never in the dire straights that Nagin left the people of NOLA in.
More so, it's still a mess today, and that' all FEMA incompetence.
Wrong, yet again. FEMA doesn't rebuild communities, they didn't rebuild mine. They provide emergency relief. They provide temporary housing. They don't and can't make homeowners come back and take advantage of the programs to help them rebuild. You've talked out your 4th point of contact on a number of parts of this issue, but on this one you're really blowing smoke. After Hugo it took parts of Charleston better than five years to be rebuilt, and that wasn't FEMA's fault. That's not their mandate. People refuse to return, some end up in lawsuits before they can rebuild, others sell their property as is, and the new owners don't rebuild immediatly. You already heard about Nagin and the junk car removal, that's not a FEMA issue either.
 
BondGuy wrote:I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding.
Your minor weather issue is nothing, nothing compared to the damage caused by a Cat V hurricane and it's simply foolish to pretend the complexity level is anywhere near the same. Again, I've lived through this, you haven't. Two weeks without power, and it wasn't FEMA's fault. Please don't bring up your tiny experience with high water and a distant hurricane when the subject is the full fury and destruction of a CAT V hurricane, much less a levy collapse.
 
 
BondGuy wrote:FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?
Again with the incredibly foolish race card. The situation was completely different. Your place in Florida didn’t take the hit and get the flooding NOLA got. It’s like saying you had a bruise and got good treatment at the ER, but the guy behind you that had been thrown a 100 ft in a bike crash was abused by the ER staff.
Relax, I'm not playing the race card. I offer race as a reason ...
You played the race card, and it's becoming a habit.
 
You really don’t want to hear about FEMA and Hugo or Bertha.
BondGuy wrote: As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself.
Spare me (and who knows where this “80%“ number comes from).
The 80% number comes from NOAA. The put the number as double the expected rate.
Do cite the source, and while you're patting Nagin on the back, do explain how he managed to put all those people in the Superdome without food, water, medical care and security. You're simply spewing partisan garbage here.
You’re making BS excuses for the disaster he (and Blanco) created there and hammering FEMA on ludicrous grounds, and all for transparent partisan considerations. Had the Superdome not been the unmitigated disaster that he’d made it, those people wouldn’t have been suffering, and FEMA’s 24 hour delay wouldn’t have been as critical. As I pointed out, FEMA didn’t get to my neighborhood for three days, but it wasn’t a CNN worthy situation because we, as a community, had plans in place to take care of ourselves until help could arrive.
Nagin didn't create the disaster. That would be mother nature.
Nagin called for evacuation late, he created the disaster at the Superdome, the complete collapse of the NOLA government, to include the police, is on him. Had he handled ANY of those issues correctly FEMA's 24 hour delay in getting there wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

troll's picture
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BondGuy wrote:
So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.
Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...

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mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.
Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...

Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;
Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.
The bet is that the first person over 12 years old that you dump that on puts you on the ground.
By the way, Punta Gorda, ground zero for H. Charley, 21 miles north of my house. Which puts me closer to ground zero of a major hurricane than any of the devestated MS towns.
And could you at least get your facts straight. Katrina was only a Cat 3 storm when it made landfall with 125mph sustained winds. Meanwhile my minor league by comparision weather event, Charley, made landfall with 150mph sustained winds. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good diatribe. You look to indict my statements without knowing what your talking about. I know you aren't embarrassed but you should be.
As for a link to NOAA, if you won't take the one minute it takes to find the NOLA info why should i waste my time giving you the link? you won't believe what you read anyway, because it vindicates Nagin.
Mikey, there is nothing wrong with disliking Nagin. i don't like him either. But disputing known facts casts you in a poor light.
Get back to me and let me know how it goes in Punta Gorda. That is after you pick up your teeth.
 

troll's picture
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BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.
Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...

Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;
Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.
 
<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 
 

Costliest U.S. Atlantic hurricanes
Cost refers to total estimated property damage.

Rank

Hurricane

Season

Cost (2005 USD)

 

 

 

 

1

Katrina

2005

$81.2 billion

 

 

 

 

2

Andrew

1992

$44.9 billion

 

 

 

 

3

Wilma

2005

$20.6 billion

 

 

 

 

4

Charley

2004

$15.4 billion

 

 

 

 

5

Ivan

2004

$14.6 billion

 

 

 

 

Main article: List of notable Atlantic hurricane

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
Charley, 25 deaths in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />US.
 
Katrina, 1700+ deaths in the US
 
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/pix622/h.html
 
“I never saw a FEMA help center in My AREA for six days after Hurricane Charley - THE NEAREST FREE WATER WAS MILES AWAY –“
 
BTW, Bondguy, you do realize the FEMA you praise in Florida and the FEMA you diss in NOLA were both run by Micheal Brown, the infamous "Brownie", right?
Now, what could be the differences between the "fine" FEMA in Florida and the horribel one in NOLA?
Let's see, Florida had a CAT IV landing, no levy breaks, city above sea level. NOLA had a CAT V landing, heavy flooding, broken levies, down bridges and a city below sea level.
Florida had  competent leadership at the state and local level, NOLA had the keystone cops.
 
Yep, obvious Bush failed....

BondGuy's picture
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mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.
Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...

Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;
Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.
 
<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

Costliest U.S. Atlantic hurricanes
Cost refers to total estimated property damage.

Rank

Hurricane

Season

Cost (2005 USD)

1

Katrina

2005

$81.2 billion

2

Andrew

1992

$44.9 billion

3

Wilma

2005

$20.6 billion

4

Charley

2004

$15.4 billion

5

Ivan

2004

$14.6 billion

Main article: List of notable Atlantic hurricane

Charley, 25 deaths in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />US.

Katrina, 1700+ deaths in the US

http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/pix622/h.html

“I never saw a FEMA help center in My AREA for six days after Hurricane Charley - THE NEAREST FREE WATER WAS MILES AWAY –“

BTW, Bondguy, you do realize the FEMA you praise in Florida and the FEMA you diss in NOLA were both run by Micheal Brown, the infamous "Brownie", right?
Now, what could be the differences between the "fine" FEMA in Florida and the horribel one in NOLA?
Let's see, Florida had a CAT IV landing, no levy breaks, city above sea level. NOLA had a CAT V landing, heavy flooding, broken levies, down bridges and a city below sea level.
Florida had  competent leadership at the state and local level, NOLA had the keystone cops.
 
Yep, obvious Bush failed....

Mike, LOL, try cat 3 for NOLA. At least get that right. but just to be clear Katrina cat 3, Charley cat 4. Now, for the uninformed, katrina was at one point a cat 5. Which is good stuff for those like to exagerate. However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.
For crying out loud, give it up, your pinned.
I let you get away with misstating the facts about Katrina in post after post and when I finally call you on your use of misinformation you change debate from storm strength to storm dollar losses. That's funny.
If Charley had hit NOLA instead of, by NOLA standards, relatively unpopulated Punta Gorda the NOLA numbers would have been worse.
Charley, the non weather event in your eyes, was a far stronger storm.
You really need to stop.
Have you booked a ticket to SW Florida yet?
Still waiting for the Bush success stories.

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However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.
Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 10,000.  Who cares?  Isn't it the damage done what counts?

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BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.
Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...

Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;
Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.
 
<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

Costliest U.S. Atlantic hurricanes
Cost refers to total estimated property damage.

Rank

Hurricane

Season

Cost (2005 USD)

1

Katrina

2005

$81.2 billion

2

Andrew

1992

$44.9 billion

3

Wilma

2005

$20.6 billion

4

Charley

2004

$15.4 billion

5

Ivan

2004

$14.6 billion

Main article: List of notable Atlantic hurricane

Charley, 25 deaths in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />US.

Katrina, 1700+ deaths in the US

http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/pix622/h.html

“I never saw a FEMA help center in My AREA for six days after Hurricane Charley - THE NEAREST FREE WATER WAS MILES AWAY –“

BTW, Bondguy, you do realize the FEMA you praise in Florida and the FEMA you diss in NOLA were both run by Micheal Brown, the infamous "Brownie", right?
Now, what could be the differences between the "fine" FEMA in Florida and the horribel one in NOLA?
Let's see, Florida had a CAT IV landing, no levy breaks, city above sea level. NOLA had a CAT V landing, heavy flooding, broken levies, down bridges and a city below sea level.
Florida had  competent leadership at the state and local level, NOLA had the keystone cops.
 
Yep, obvious Bush failed....

Mike, LOL, try cat 3 for NOLA. At least get that right. but just to be clear Katrina cat 3, Charley cat 4. Now, for the uninformed, katrina was at one point a cat 5. Which is good stuff for those like to exagerate. However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.
For crying out loud, give it up, your pinned.
I let you get away with misstating the facts about Katrina in post after post and when I finally call you on your use of misinformation you change debate from storm strength to storm dollar losses. That's funny.
If Charley had hit NOLA instead of, by NOLA standards, relatively unpopulated Punta Gorda the NOLA numbers would have been worse.
Charley, the non weather event in your eyes, was a far stronger storm.
You really need to stop.
Have you booked a ticket to SW Florida yet?
Still waiting for the Bush success stories.

 
Wow, BG, that's a pretty long post just to find a way to dodge the question about how FEMA was "johnny on the spot" (your characterization) under Brownie in Florida and an unmitigated disaster in NOLA, again, under Brownie....

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anonymous wrote:
However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.
Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 10,000.  Who cares?  Isn't it the damage done what counts?

 
Of course that's all that matters. Look at the dollar figures and the death counts. NOLA had biblical flooding due to Katrina and the levy break. Had NOLA NOT been under sea level it would have been a different story.
However, let's not for get the key issue here, BG himself has nothing for praise for the Brownie led FEMA in Florida (you know he had to be unaware about the Brownie led angle). It's only when FEMA operated in a more difficult enviroment and with a keystone cop Mayor/Gov. combination that FEMA became a disaster. Gee, and Brownie and Bush are still to blame?

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"I let you get away with misstating the facts about Katrina ..."
That's partially true, Katrina wasn't a CAT V when it hit (Hugo was, MY hurricane), then again, it wasn't the actual hurricane that caused the biggest problems in below-sea level NOLA, that was flooding.
 
 
 

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MikeButler, you are an intellectual midget.  You're taking a partisan approach to a natural disaster of epic proportions.  You must be a big O'Reilly Factor fan. 

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Edward Pwns wrote:MikeButler, you are an intellectual midget.  You're taking a partisan approach to a natural disaster of epic proportions.  You must be a big O'Reilly Factor fan. 
 
You know, "Pwns", while your X-gen name first put me off, I think it was the way you drilled down into the facts and details (like how Brownie could possibly be a disaster in NOLA and "johnny on the spot" in Florida) that won me over to your way of thinking. Nice work.

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BondGuy wrote:
If you really don't like people asking questions of their leaders you are living in the wrong country.

Truest statement yet.  Remember how the Bushies used to say, "If you don't like it move to Canada?" LOL
I feel that those still hanging on and believing the spin doctors in the white house are suffering from cognitive dissonance.  Here's the definition:
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to  the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them.

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Mike the Butler,
I really didn't mean to make you so angry and steam.
Blame Mike Brown all you want, after all, your hero O'Reilly would do that wouldn't he? 
Biggest natural disaster to strike this country in a century and you want to point fingers at the guy running FEMA.  That's pathetic, but you were no doubt taught this by O'Reilly. 
What your thick skull, with the O'Reilly emblzoned cap on it, fails to miss is that no administration could have prevented or mitigated the disaster.  Those levees were going to give way, and then the flooded streets would hamper relief efforts, oh and then the cell phone towers being down, and the fact the the LA National Guard is in Iraq, and that little part about 20% of residents who refused to leave despite the warnings.  Yeah, its Nagins fault, no Bush's.
Mike the Butler, I'd love to see how you would have responded down there, with your little headset on.....with the O'Reilly button on your shirt. 
 

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Edward Pwns wrote:
Mike the Butler,
I really didn't mean to make you so angry and steam.
Blame Mike Brown all you want, after all, your hero O'Reilly would do that wouldn't he? 
Biggest natural disaster to strike this country in a century and you want to point fingers at the guy running FEMA.  That's pathetic, but you were no doubt taught this by O'Reilly. 
What your thick skull, with the O'Reilly emblzoned cap on it, fails to miss is that no administration could have prevented or mitigated the disaster.  Those levees were going to give way, and then the flooded streets would hamper relief efforts, oh and then the cell phone towers being down, and the fact the the LA National Guard is in Iraq, and that little part about 20% of residents who refused to leave despite the warnings.  Yeah, its Nagins fault, no Bush's.
Mike the Butler, I'd love to see how you would have responded down there, with your little headset on.....with the O'Reilly button on your shirt. 
 

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anonymous wrote:
However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.
Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 10,000.  Who cares?  Isn't it the damage done what counts?

You are absolutely correct. It's the damage and loss of life that matters. However, for anyone to discount a storm that literally blew one town, Punta Gorda, off the map by referring to it as a minor league non event is just plain cold.
The point is storm strength, which mike has been missstating in every post to sure up his anti-Nagin diatribe. once he realized he was pinned he changed the debate to storm damage. Using that reasoning a weak cat one storm delivering a direct hit to NYC would would cause greater dollar damage than Katrina.
Along the Jersey coast we've had Noreasters that have caused greater dollar loss than Charley. yet, non of those storms completely destroyed a place as Charley did to Punta Gorda. Ft Myer's got whacked pretty hard too. The infamous roof peel video loop that plays constantly on the weather channel was a municipal bldg in downtown FT Myers. Charley looks plenty mean on that tape! Dollars are not a valid measure of a storm's damage. The damage in that part of SW FL was every bit as devastating as it was along the Gulf coast the next year. Charley had less developed RE to wreck thus cost less in dollar damage.

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mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
Wow, BG, that's a pretty long post just to find a way to dodge the question about how FEMA was "johnny on the spot" (your characterization) under Brownie in Florida and an unmitigated disaster in NOLA, again, under Brownie....

Ah, Brownie was in charge of FEMA when he helped my state? Oh my gosh, how stupid of me not to realize that. Gee i guess i was wrong.
Not!
What are you effing kidding me?
He was an unmitigated disaster in NOLA he got fired for it. It exposed the level of incompetence that exists within the Bush Admin. Chertoff should have been fired too.
Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with FEMA being downgraded to a department within a department, having their budget slashed, and having a thoughtless government careerocat put in charge. That would be Chertoff.
But, as i said, I don't know. They did right by me and then crashed and burned.
Is it fair to compare the mess in Iraq with the mess in NOLA? ( the post that brought katrina into play on the threads) I think so and a large part of the country sees it that way too. Even people who live in red states are starting to get it. You don't like it, too bad. Keep your head buried. Incompetence in everything they do. These guys couldn't flush a toilet without f**king it up.The Bush admin will surely not be treated very well by history.
Maybe we should elect Nagin for president. He, at least, did one thing right. That's one more than the Bush admin can count.
And please don't count me as a democrat because i see the Bush admin for what it is. I'd love to see a strong republican in the race next year. That's not looking likely right now, but there is still time.
 

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BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:
So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?
Wow, BG, that's a pretty long post just to find a way to dodge the question about how FEMA was "johnny on the spot" (your characterization) under Brownie in Florida and an unmitigated disaster in NOLA, again, under Brownie....

Ah, Brownie was in charge of FEMA when he helped my state? Oh my gosh, how stupid of me not to realize that. Gee i guess i was wrong.
Not!
What are you effing kidding me?
He was an unmitigated disaster in NOLA he got fired for it. It exposed the level of incompetence that exists within the Bush Admin. Chertoff should have been fired too.
 
So, again, to review the bidding, Brownie was "johnny on the spot" in Florida, and you loved the FEMA response but an unmitigated disaster in NOLA. Yeah, that makes great sense...

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BondGuy wrote:Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with FEMA being downgraded to a department within a department, having their budget slashed, and having a thoughtless government careerocat put in charge. That would be Chertoff.
Gee, those uncomfortable facts again, sorry BG. FEMA was part of DHS (Democrats loved that idea) and Chertoff was in charge (Brownie head of FEMA) when they were "johnny on the spot" in Florida.
The "budget slash" is a product of your imagination.

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Edward Pwns wrote:
Mike the Butler,
I really didn't mean to make you so angry and steam.
 
Don't fool yourself, you're not important enough to worry about...
Blame Mike Brown all you want, after all, your hero O'Reilly would do that wouldn't he? 
Edward Pwns wrote:Biggest natural disaster to strike this country in a century and you want to point fingers at the guy running FEMA.  That's pathetic, but you were no doubt taught this by O'Reilly. 
O'Reilly again. What's your fixation on this guy about? No one here mentioned him but you.

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mikebutler222 wrote:
BondGuy wrote:Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with FEMA being downgraded to a department within a department, having their budget slashed, and having a thoughtless government careerocat put in charge. That would be Chertoff.
Gee, those uncomfortable facts again, sorry BG. FEMA was part of DHS (Democrats loved that idea) and Chertoff was in charge (Brownie head of FEMA) when they were "johnny on the spot" in Florida.
The "budget slash" is a product of your imagination.

Mike your the one having trouble with the facts. And apparently you are having some reading comprehension issues as well.
I've stated eleventy kabillion times in these threads I don't know what went wrong at FEMA. I, like the rest of the country, know that something did go wrong. What? Why? None of know because getting a straight answer from the Bush admin is like trying to get the last word with you. It just ain't happenin'. I throw out budget slash as a possibility. Perhaps you missed the word "maybe"  in my post?
I praise FEMA for their work in FL ,and actually once they got going, for their work along the Gulf Coast. Still, there is a high likelihood that the FEMA debackle in NOLA will be a major campaign issue next year. Which neatly explains all the the time you and your right wing ilk are spending in disinformation campaigns such as this. Upping Katrina to a Cat 5, blaming Nagin, blantant lies in the face of the facts. In their wildest dreams the right wishes it was Nagin's fault.
Maybe a real cat 5 hurricane will come along this year or next, FEMA will get it right, and bail your guys out.  Fat chance huh? That is your guys getting it right.
The bottom line is this. The country is fed up with the messes the Bush admin has left us with. They are tired of the spin, the lies ,and the finger pointing. This guy has been in office for six years and it will take twenty years to undo the damage he has caused. That is, if it's undoable. And that goes well beyond Iraq and NOLA. So go ahead with your head in the sand all is well Bush can do no wrong beliefs. Fortunately for us and the rest of the world he can't be re-elected.
As for Brownie. Was he the right guy for the job. No, not in my opinion. Was he scapegoated by the admin? Is there any doubt?
 
 

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It's amusing to read the words of a hate filled individual fueled by stupidity.

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There were many reasons that FEMA and the National Guard were late in arriving in NOLA.
First they have to asked to come in by the Governor of the State.  The Federal Government can't just come in and take over without permission.  The request to come in was late in coming even though Bush had asked for the Governor to make a request.
Second.  The major roads and bridges were damaged causing truck drivers who were unfamiliar with the area difficulty in finding alternate routes that were safe for the weight of their vehicles.    The local people who were more familiar with the back roads were understandably otherwise occupied.  
I have a brother in law who is a long haul truck driver and he was sent from Oregon to deliver goods to New Orleans. Others in his company were sent in from New York, Chicago and other central distribution areas.  Never mind that they took several days of traveling to get there.  They had no idea where to go and had to back track many times on narrow roads that were also damaged and blocked by fallen trees..
Third   Supplies, trucks, equipment, people can't just klick their ruby slippers together and make it there.   The amount of support and supplies needed were far more than anticipated due to the wide spread devistation. More than just NOLA was damaged.  Many places were damaged much much worse.
Were things bungled? Sure they were, but the major blame lays at the feet of the local authorities.  The Governor of the State, the Mayors of the Cities who didn't ask for assistance soon enough, didn't repair the levees in NOLA and who were just not prepared for a catastophe that everyone knew was imminent and certain to happen.
 

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Sassy! 
Again, I'm sorry I made you so upset. 
mikebutler222 wrote:Edward Pwns wrote:
Mike the Butler,
I really didn't mean to make you so angry and steam.
 
Don't fool yourself, you're not important enough to worry about...
Blame Mike Brown all you want, after all, your hero O'Reilly would do that wouldn't he? 
Edward Pwns wrote:Biggest natural disaster to strike this country in a century and you want to point fingers at the guy running FEMA.  That's pathetic, but you were no doubt taught this by O'Reilly. 
O'Reilly again. What's your fixation on this guy about? No one here mentioned him but you.

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Have to be asked...   

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Devil'sAdvocate wrote:It's amusing to read the words of a hate filled individual fueled by stupidity.
gutter religion.
As welcome as a dose of the clap.
hunt them like deer.
And you see me as the one making stupid hate filled statements?
I guess you would.
Oh, and by the way, your parents urge the of killing them as well. Is that speaking against the government? Eye for an eye. you've just gotta love the old world.

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BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:
BondGuy wrote:Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with FEMA being downgraded to a department within a department, having their budget slashed, and having a thoughtless government careerocat put in charge. That would be Chertoff.
Gee, those uncomfortable facts again, sorry BG. FEMA was part of DHS (Democrats loved that idea) and Chertoff was in charge (Brownie head of FEMA) when they were "johnny on the spot" in Florida.
The "budget slash" is a product of your imagination.

Mike your the one having trouble with the facts. And apparently you are having some reading comprehension issues as well.
LOL, no, no reading comprehension problems, just enjoying watching you try to untie yourself from those knots.
Again, FEMA did a dandy job in Florida, you said so yourself. FeMA was already part of DHS, there were no budget cuts, Chertoff was already head of DHS, Brownie was already head of FEMA, and, again, they were "johnny on the spot", according to you. At least according to you when you thought the Florida FEMA was the "before picture" and the Brownie led FEMA was the "after picture".
 
You say you don't know what went wrong on NOLA, but we both know that's not true. You know exactly what the difference was between Florida and NOLA. FEMA was exactly the same group that was in Florida, the difference was the twin disasters of  Mayor "send them to the Superdome without food, water, medical attention and security" Nagin (that you insist on praising) and Gov. "I don't want to sent my Nation Guard yet" Blanco.

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BondGuy wrote:
gutter religion.
As welcome as a dose of the clap.

It is a gutter religion and they are as welcome as a dose of clap.
You may not agree, but that does not make any difference.
If you could blink your eyes and every Muslim in America would be gone, would you do it?  Not dead, just gone--back to the turd world from which they sprung.
I assume not, but it would be fun to hear why not?

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mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:
BondGuy wrote:Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with FEMA being downgraded to a department within a department, having their budget slashed, and having a thoughtless government careerocat put in charge. That would be Chertoff.
Gee, those uncomfortable facts again, sorry BG. FEMA was part of DHS (Democrats loved that idea) and Chertoff was in charge (Brownie head of FEMA) when they were "johnny on the spot" in Florida.
The "budget slash" is a product of your imagination.

Mike your the one having trouble with the facts. And apparently you are having some reading comprehension issues as well.
LOL, no, no reading comprehension problems, just enjoying watching you try to untie yourself from those knots.
Again, FEMA did a dandy job in Florida, you said so yourself. FeMA was already part of DHS, there were no budget cuts, Chertoff was already head of DHS, Brownie was already head of FEMA, and, again, they were "johnny on the spot", according to you. At least according to you when you thought the Florida FEMA was the "before picture" and the Brownie led FEMA was the "after picture".
 
You say you don't know what went wrong on NOLA, but we both know that's not true. You know exactly what the difference was between Florida and NOLA. FEMA was exactly the same group that was in Florida, the difference was the twin disasters of  Mayor "send them to the Superdome without food, water, medical attention and security" Nagin (that you insist on praising) and Gov. "I don't want to sent my Nation Guard yet" Blanco.

Mike, I luv ya man, you are the greatest! You are the freakin energizer bunny of debate! That's a compliment.
Float like a butterfly
Sting like a bee
You are the greatest debater
The only Mikey
 
The crowd roars!
 
Years ago my wife and I were having some communication issues. Typical married couple BS. We sought out a therapist to help us talk to each other. This therapist put two small ceramic ducks, head to head facing each other,  on a table and asked us to name an issue that was a sore point between us. Then she'd say start talking. Each time one of us moved off point, changed the debate, or tried to club the other with something not relevant to the issue the therapist moved the duck on the side of the table of the offender and told that person to keep it to the issue at hand. For example, the issue could be that my wife didn't like the hours I worked, but then she would bring something I said to her mother into it. Her duck got moved. The point being when you keep you ducks lined up alot of good communication can take place and people can move forward as my wife, who is now my business partner as well, and I have done.
I tell you that to tell you this, our ducks aren't even on the table anymore. We've been moving them around like chess pieces and now they've left the building.
I think our positions are pretty we'll established. Let's save the ducks for another day.
 

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BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:BondGuy wrote:mikebutler222 wrote:
BondGuy wrote:Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with FEMA being downgraded to a department within a department, having their budget slashed, and having a thoughtless government careerocat put in charge. That would be Chertoff.
Gee, those uncomfortable facts again, sorry BG. FEMA was part of DHS (Democrats loved that idea) and Chertoff was in charge (Brownie head of FEMA) when they were "johnny on the spot" in Florida.
The "budget slash" is a product of your imagination.

Mike your the one having trouble with the facts. And apparently you are having some reading comprehension issues as well.
LOL, no, no reading comprehension problems, just enjoying watching you try to untie yourself from those knots.
Again, FEMA did a dandy job in Florida, you said so yourself. FeMA was already part of DHS, there were no budget cuts, Chertoff was already head of DHS, Brownie was already head of FEMA, and, again, they were "johnny on the spot", according to you. At least according to you when you thought the Florida FEMA was the "before picture" and the Brownie led FEMA was the "after picture".
 
You say you don't know what went wrong on NOLA, but we both know that's not true. You know exactly what the difference was between Florida and NOLA. FEMA was exactly the same group that was in Florida, the difference was the twin disasters of  Mayor "send them to the Superdome without food, water, medical attention and security" Nagin (that you insist on praising) and Gov. "I don't want to sent my Nation Guard yet" Blanco.

Mike, I luv ya man, you are the greatest! You are the freakin energizer bunny of debate! That's a compliment.
Float like a butterfly
Sting like a bee
You are the greatest debater
The only Mikey
 
The crowd roars!
 
Years ago my wife and I were having some communication issues. Typical married couple BS. We sought out a therapist to help us talk to each other. This therapist put two small ceramic ducks, head to head facing each other,  on a table and asked us to name an issue that was a sore point between us. Then she'd say start talking. Each time one of us moved off point, changed the debate, or tried to club the other with something not relevant to the issue the therapist moved the duck on the side of the table of the offender and told that person to keep it to the issue at hand. For example, the issue could be that my wife didn't like the hours I worked, but then she would bring something I said to her mother into it. Her duck got moved. The point being when you keep you ducks lined up alot of good communication can take place and people can move forward as my wife, who is now my business partner as well, and I have done.
I tell you that to tell you this, our ducks aren't even on the table anymore. We've been moving them around like chess pieces and now they've left the building.
I think our positions are pretty we'll established. Let's save the ducks for another day.
 

Works for me, much respect

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Bond Guy slinks away, tail between his legs.

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Devil'sAdvocate wrote:Bond Guy slinks away, tail between his legs.
 
Give it a rest, Putsy

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